Episode Transcript
[00:00:17] Speaker A: Hey, it is bootstrapped web. We are back today. It's Friday, September 27. And. Yeah. How we doing, Jordan?
[00:00:24] Speaker B: We are good. It's Friday. Coming to New York this weekend.
[00:00:28] Speaker A: Oh, you are?
[00:00:29] Speaker B: Just for one night? Just for Sunday night.
[00:00:32] Speaker A: Nice. I am actually flying to Cabo, Mexico on Monday morning for Cabopress. Oh, yeah. Lemma hooked me up with like a last minute ticket for that. And how could I say no? I'm heading down there for next week. So we'll be off the podcast next Friday.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: Cool. I think it would be fun to go to Cabo press if for no other reason.
[00:00:56] Speaker A: Oh, my God.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: Have the debate.
[00:00:59] Speaker A: I wonder what people are going to be talking about down there. That should be interesting.
[00:01:02] Speaker B: I wonder if there's any topic in the WordPress community right now that might dominate all the other topics.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: No, nothing much.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: Which, which we will get into. But before we do that, first of all, I have a. I got a whole bunch of personal stuff. We're going to make it like a hang podcast.
[00:01:16] Speaker A: Let's do it, dude.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: We'll send my business, first of all, this weekend. I'm incredibly excited to go see Douglas Murray speak on Sunday. That's why I'm coming into New York and we're going with my entire family. So it's like literally my immediate fame, my mom, my dad and my two brothers. So the five of us going to see him speak.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: Oh, very cool. Yeah, that's pretty fun.
[00:01:36] Speaker B: Old school.
Today I'm going to see a Rivian.
[00:01:41] Speaker A: I was going to ask you which car you're looking at. All right.
So I'm actually on the list for that next Rivian coming out. I think it's coming out next year. Two reals, I think.
[00:01:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I looked at it, got excited about it, then I saw the coming soon in 2026. I know it's r. In October.
[00:01:57] Speaker A: Yeah. But it's like $100 to get on the list for that. So we did that, like, and I don't know if we're gonna get it or not, but it. Yeah, well, you could work for it.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: You've made the leap on electric. Yeah, yeah, I have not.
[00:02:11] Speaker A: Yeah. So we've had it for almost. Almost three, like two and a half years, something like that.
[00:02:16] Speaker B: Cool. Yeah. I have not made the leap. My wife's car is hybrid and it gets unbelievable gas mileage. But, you know, you still put gas in. You're not plugging it in.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, at this point, for me, I don't know if it's gonna be a Rivian or something else after the, like, we are all electric going forward.
[00:02:32] Speaker B: Really? Really. You take trips, too. You, like, drive up to.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: We drive so much, and it's just so much better in so many ways, dude.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: Cool. If you asked me a year ago, I would have said, I'm not ready. I'll give it a few years.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: I would say, we're not going to do a Tesla again. We're not shopping anytime soon. But the Tesla is nice. But I think that there are so many other good options out there now. Rivian, whatever, BMW and all of them have nice options now.
But for us, for me at least, it's got to be electric going forward.
[00:03:05] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: It's so much nicer to drive.
[00:03:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't. I don't know what that's like, but I know what my driving life is like, and it is very small. I take my kids to soccer tournaments. That's the farthest I drive. I go to the bakery.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:22] Speaker B: I go. Go get lunch. I run a few errands. I just do not. Whenever we go on a bigger trip, we take, you know, the other car. And the Rivian's nice, man. It's.
[00:03:31] Speaker A: They are really nice. Yeah, those, uh, the current ones are. Are big and pricey.
[00:03:37] Speaker B: I like a big suv. Maybe it's to compensate for my height, but whatever. I like it.
[00:03:41] Speaker A: Yeah. I wonder what the actual size of that two reals is going to be.
But the Model Y is, like, pretty spacious inside, but overall, it's still a pretty small. I don't even know if you'd even call it an suv, but it's pretty. It's supposed to be like a small suv, right?
[00:03:58] Speaker B: Mid size suv or whatever that category is called. You know what car shopping is? It's annoying.
It's such a big decision. It's a so much. Everything's so much more expensive than you want it to be.
It's like house shopping. You just look up one level at what you can't afford and you're like, damn, that Range Rover's nice. Yeah.
[00:04:16] Speaker A: Yeah, man. Before the Tesla, we always did the like. Our. Our routine for buying cars was we buy slightly used. Like, we. We would buy two years old, a pre owned, like two or three. Two or three years with like, 30,000 miles, which means we're going into the dealerships and dealing with the used car lot salesman and that whole stupid game, you know?
[00:04:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: And I got, like, kind of good at it. I started to really bought over those. I mean, I didn't like it, but I got. But I I figured out all their little tricks, and I figured little workarounds. And, like, you play off, like, the sell value of your last car off of the current thing, and, like.
[00:05:00] Speaker B: And the good cop, bad cop thing of, like, let me go talk to my manager. It's.
[00:05:04] Speaker A: Yeah, like, hey, if you're gonna make me sit here for more than 30 minutes, I'm walking out. Like, just, I'll, you know.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: Yes. One of the things I liked so I'm having. I went to go see a car yesterday, and the feeling. The emotion I had going into the car dealership and leaving was, you're a loser, and you can't afford this. What are you doing here? That was the vibe that I got, and I was like, no, I just don't want the $2,000 a month version of what you have. I don't drive that much. I want the cheaper one. And why are you making me feel like a failure? Because I don't want the super expensive version of it. It was like, so now I don't want to give that guy business at all.
And then you go onto the Rivian website, and you're shopping, like, an e commerce experience.
[00:05:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, these modern things, like the Rivians, the Teslas. You just order it online, and.
[00:06:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep. I'm gonna go into the city after this podcast to look at and test drive it, because I think I'm old school enough that I can't buy a car without literally sitting in it for.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: Like, I did the same with it at the time that I bought it, the Tesla, it was, like, 2021, and the wait was so long, we waited, like, eight months for delivery.
[00:06:17] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:06:18] Speaker A: That's a trip.
Yeah, man.
[00:06:21] Speaker B: All right, so we're not.
[00:06:22] Speaker A: But, like, dude, just the thing about driving it is so much more enjoyable to drive an electric. Like, it has that effect. I still feel it now. Like, two and a half years in, I've always liked driving a lot, and we do take a lot of road trips, my family.
But I. But two years in, I still feel like, oh, let me find a good excuse to go take a. Take a ride, because it's just fun.
[00:06:50] Speaker B: It sparks a little joy.
[00:06:51] Speaker A: Hell, yeah, dude. Like. And, like, the sound system inside is great. The pickup is insane. Like, the zero to 60 is insane. Yeah, that's crazy. It's awesome, dude. Yeah.
[00:07:01] Speaker B: Very interesting. Cool. I like it because I do. I do. Like most Americans, I get. I get a lot of, like, good feeling from the car I drive and the way it makes me feel, and the whole thing of course I like driving general. I don't like other drivers on the road, but I like me driving.
[00:07:20] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, we're total east coast road rage people over here.
[00:07:25] Speaker B: Yes, I'm anti road rage. I drive. Portland was my home. How people drive.
[00:07:30] Speaker A: I remember you guys had that, like, slow thing. Yeah.
[00:07:33] Speaker B: Now I'm in Chicago. It's something in the middle of people just too aggro.
[00:07:37] Speaker A: I'm still a new York driver, I believe.
[00:07:41] Speaker B: Brian, I'm not done with my personal updates. I have one more.
[00:07:44] Speaker A: Let's go.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: Okay.
I want to recommend a tv show.
[00:07:48] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Last night, stumbled onto a tv show called nobody wants this.
It's created by two sisters and the show stars Adam Brody and Kristen Bell. Okay. And I had this very rare experience yesterday.
[00:08:05] Speaker A: I don't know this one. And we watch a lot of tv. I don't know why this isn't.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: I think this will start to bubble up now because first of all, it's very well done. The writing is incredibly good. And the two sisters that created it are like, you know, that's just an interesting story. It's about two sisters. It's about a rabbi played by Adam Brody, who meets Kristen Bell. And all of a sudden they're like, you know, can this actually work? Type of a thing. But I had such a rare experience last night with it where those two on screen together, they, like, I don't know if you've heard the term wattage around, like, hollywood or act just like, charisma. My wife and I could not believe what these two did on screen. They had the two of us sitting in bed with just giant smiles on our faces.
[00:08:55] Speaker A: Hmm.
[00:08:55] Speaker B: Because, like, the. What they created in this one particular scene, those are two great actors. It was like charisma, magic. We couldn't believe it.
[00:09:03] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:09:03] Speaker B: Very cool.
[00:09:04] Speaker A: We gotta check this out.
[00:09:05] Speaker B: Might have been the edible, but whatever. You know what happens.
[00:09:08] Speaker A: Yeah. We just finished the one, like the Nicole Kidman one about the murder mystery on.
[00:09:14] Speaker B: Yes. Amazing. First three episodes.
[00:09:17] Speaker A: Brainwreck, super dumb near the end, but.
[00:09:20] Speaker B: We watch it to the end.
[00:09:21] Speaker A: We still watch it. Right now we're watching the super weird one called chaos. Have you seen that?
[00:09:28] Speaker B: No. No.
[00:09:30] Speaker A: It's basically about, like, the greek gods, but they play out in real life, modern.
[00:09:36] Speaker B: Okay. Okay.
[00:09:37] Speaker A: It's sort of like the trailer makes it look like a comedy, and it's sort of funny, but it's also, like, just kind of weird and kind of violent and, like, it's just such a. It is like, at first I was like, I don't know about this one. But then now we're like five episodes in and I'm like, all right, this is weird. And I can't stop watching.
[00:09:58] Speaker B: Cool. I like it.
In the perfect couple, the one with Nicole Kidman, just leave Shriver just smoking joints. Just one after.
[00:10:07] Speaker A: Totally, like literally every scene.
Yep, yep. Love it.
[00:10:13] Speaker B: All right, let's. You have any personal, any albums you recommend?
[00:10:17] Speaker A: I don't know. What do we got? You know?
No, I mean, yeah, that's for me, it's like work and tv. That's my whole life right there.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: I like that. Well, you used to have some Knicks games.
[00:10:30] Speaker A: I mean, right now it's on, like, Mets watch, you know, just the Mets wild card race is crazy. And a huge wrinkle this week with, like, the hurricane coming through Atlanta. The Mets and Atlanta are playing. Each are like neck and neck for the wild card spot, and two of their games just got rained out and postponed to Monday. And there's this whole thing happening in baseball land.
[00:10:53] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:10:54] Speaker A: But anyway, so Matt Mullenweg just drank.
I mean, should we just get into that or are we going to talk about our businesses?
[00:11:06] Speaker B: No, let's talk about that for a sec. You have a lot of experience in the world. I do.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: Years ago, and I've been disconnected and very out of the loop. And I try to touch base, like, you know, and now I'm watching on Twitter just like everyone else, but, yeah, like, I've been out of the loop and I haven't really used WordPress in years, but I used to be a very happy customer of WP engine. If I was a WordPress user today, I probably still would be using WP engine, but they, they actually powered all of restaurant engine back in the day. Like they were my hosting provider for restaurant engine.
[00:11:41] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:11:42] Speaker A: This was like over ten years ago.
[00:11:44] Speaker B: Yeah, they've done very well. Everyone in the bootstrap community in Microconf that we come out of is familiar with Jason Cohen. Yeah.
I don't even know what good adjectives to throw on top of his name. He's always been so lovely and smart and accomplished. I don't know anything bad. I've never heard anything bad out of him.
[00:12:07] Speaker A: Yeah. And like, WP engine as a whole, as a, as a company and product line has been pretty, pretty great overall, from my experience. I haven't really touched it in years, but, yeah. And so what happened this week?
What's your take on the whole? It just seems like such a shit show and like, man, like it.
I mean, you can't help but, but feel like whatever Matt and automatic are trying to do here, they're in the wrong. And the licensing stuff is murky at best.
They're trying to set some new rules. I don't even know where to think or where to go with this or how to even think about it.
[00:12:53] Speaker B: What are your thinking? Okay. The way I look at it is you gotta go from the beginning.
Like what created the situation to begin with is a very difficult balance between the open source.org and the commercial enterprise.
[00:13:11] Speaker A: It's been super weird since the beginning.
[00:13:13] Speaker B: It's, it was always going to be weird because that nature of that is like contradictory.
[00:13:19] Speaker A: Right?
[00:13:20] Speaker B: You have WordPress.org, this open source project that everyone can use, and you have WordPress.org, comma, literally the website that's like the hub of that activity where plugins are hosted. And there's a lot of things that actually happened there, right? It's not just like this fully open.
[00:13:36] Speaker A: Source thing and using the trademark WordPress, using the name. The word WordPress has been always such a weird, pretty annoying thing for most businesses operating in the WordPress space.
And I'm actually unclear, and I think this is a thing that Matt has been super unclear about with this current debacle, which is like, is the term WP still okay or not? Because the thing that every comp, every WordPress company, every plugin and theme shop and products in the WordPress space, the go to move has been okay. You can't use the word WordPress in your name, but you can use WP in your name, you can use it in your WP engine, hence WP engine. And like, if you, if you ever tried to run ads for a product that's promoting a WordPress product, you can't use the word WordPress in your ads. You have to use WP. Like that itself makes no sense to me.
[00:14:32] Speaker B: Makes no, it's like, it's like I don't think about another open source, what's called Linus Linux.
[00:14:39] Speaker A: Linux, excuse me, or laravel or rails or anything.
[00:14:42] Speaker B: Right? Imagine if that nonprofit open source foundation was trying to control.
It's literally, it's antithetical to the whole point of the entire thing.
[00:14:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:56] Speaker B: Was that WordPress hugely important to the Internet was this area, this like landmass on the Internet, that, that ensured a level of freedom that didn't exist in the fiefdoms, in the facebooks, in the Spotifys, in the Shopifys, in the instagrams, which they own and everyone understands very clearly you're building on my sovereign territory. I get to dictate the rules. Everyone knows that going in, in WordPress, it was supposed to be different. WordPress.com can kind of do whatever it wants, but can't interfere with what's going on on the open source side. And for me that's where it falls apart. And the second Matt broke that trust, now it can never be seen as the same again because what people assumed, the thing that was so important is that there's a difference between someone promising that they won't do bad and the fact that the person can't do bad. Yeah, and WordPress, you assumed you can't do bad to me because it is open source and I can do whatever the hell I want and you can't tell me otherwise. I might find benefit in playing ball with you, but you cannot compel me to play ball.
[00:16:13] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:16:14] Speaker B: And that has reached across that border and made it untrue.
You actually can be controlled. You do happen to be in Matt Mullenweg's fiefdom, even though you've been told for 20 years that you're not 100%.
[00:16:30] Speaker A: He's literally using the WordPress naming license like our trademark issue as a way to go attack other companies who've built businesses on the WordPress open source software.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: Yes. And gone so far as to cut off the open source resources of private companies. Accessing those resources in the name of some trademark nonsense like it is just about money you're losing to WP engine. You can't handle it with your ego even though you're sitting on a fucking billion dollars. And I hope there's a lawsuit and I hope they lose. And I hope it's clarified because if it isn't clarified or if WordPress.com wins, it is the death knell of freedom in the WordPress ecosystem and it means a replacement is on the way.
[00:17:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, again, just the, I don't know how you could just use the name WordPress like what Matt has been super unclear about. I watched parts of this. I think he did like a Twitter spaces last night.
[00:17:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I watched five minutes of that and was like, this is a catastrophe.
[00:17:41] Speaker A: Yeah, right. I was just like, I can't believe he's even doing this, it looks so bad. But he was also really unclear about these key questions. Like, okay, like question number one, like, are you receiving licensing fees from any other hosting companies? And he was like super unclear about that. It sounded like the answer was no. And he's just asking WP engine.
[00:18:06] Speaker B: And.
[00:18:06] Speaker A: I mean, the other thing is, like, what is, like, the threshold for, like, how big do you need to get before automatic is gonna come after you to get these licenses? It's just ridiculous, you know? Like, right.
[00:18:17] Speaker B: There's no logical consistency because it is being excused after the fact. You're finding an excuse for your behavior and justifying it. And you can tell that that's the case because the first instinct, the first complaint is they haven't contributed back to the foundation at all. They're not giving back. They're making so much money.
[00:18:40] Speaker A: And there's no clear, like, there's no clear rule. Like, okay, if. If you're doing business in WordPress, you have to do X, Y, and Z, x number of hours, x number, this or that. But it sounds like you have to just pay x dollars to automatic.
[00:18:54] Speaker B: Yes. I disagree that it isn't clear on what you're supposed to do. It is clear. You don't have to do anything.
[00:19:02] Speaker A: Right.
[00:19:03] Speaker B: Exactly. That's the point.
[00:19:04] Speaker A: That's the whole point of open source. You know?
[00:19:07] Speaker B: That's right. You can make a billion dollars a year in revenue and never contribute anything and take every new template that's published and every Gutenberg thing and every bit of value from the open source project and never give back a dollar and never feel bad about it at all. And no one can do a damn thing. That is the point of that whole ecosystem.
[00:19:29] Speaker A: And people can, like, hem and haw about, like, the little, like, the technicalities in the GPL license and this and that. But, like, the bottom line is, look, this is open source software and the whole play, like, the business model. Like, we should just talk about, like, what if you decide to build a software company around the open source model? My basic understanding, having not really built anything with this model before, and I'm not very interested in building in this model.
[00:19:57] Speaker B: Right. But you could have with restaurant engine, you found value in using managed hosting instead of your own. That's the only difference. That's it.
[00:20:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, so, but, like, the idea is, like, if you're, it's just like freemium, essentially, like, you're building software that is free for everyone to use, and it. And because it's free and it's open source and it's continuously getting better with the community that is your top of funnel traffic source to have some sort of, like, paid premium private offering, right. You look at, like, anything like Tailwind CSS. Tailwind Tailwind CSS. The project is open source. Anyone can use it, and then they sell Tailwind UI, you know, and their whole top of funnel is the open source project. And that's been the case, and that's been the case for so many WordPress companies, including automatic. And they've had their paid products for the WordPress space. But now it seems like the reality is like that's slowing down. Companies like WP engine are killing them. So now it's like they're changing their business model to not using open source as a funnel source of traffic, but as a licensing fee revenue model.
[00:21:12] Speaker B: That's right. You know, if we go one layer, if we go a little bit toward me actually knowing what I'm talking about in terms of like direct experience, it's around woocommerce, right. And woocommerce, my understanding is it's very large.
The user base is very large, the payment processing is very large. Their problem is they can't monetize it. And mostly what that means is they can't monetize their payment flow the same way Shopify can. And that has always been of interest to them. And WP engine has stated that they are considering stripping out the stripe integration with woocommerce in such a way that automatic does not get that payment flow activity and payment flow revenue. I am pretty sure that what I just said is directionally accurate, even if it's not accurate in detail. But this is part of the equation around WordPress.com, comma, woocommerce and automatic and monetization.
[00:22:19] Speaker A: Yeah, and I don't know the details with all that, but I do know that, like, you can technically do that, you're allowed to. It's open source soft. That's the whole point of open source offer. You could take it apart and reconfigure it however you want.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: Yes, and I spoke to, I spoke to, I don't mind talking about it now because Rally's kind of in the past, but I spoke to Woocommerce about Rally, and I told them, you should consider partnering with us or acquiring, because right now you give people absolutely no reason to use your payment processing. If I use stripe with you or I use stripe without you, it's a commodity to me. You need to make it compelling. And the way you do that is to use the rally pay network, turn it into the woocommerce network, and then if you use automatic version of payment processing, it comes with a network of eventually millions and millions of users that can check up very easily.
They haven't done anything like that. They haven't done it on their own.
[00:23:19] Speaker A: Right.
[00:23:19] Speaker B: They don't need to acquire us. They could do whatever the hell they want on their own, but they give people no reason. It's the same thing with the managed hosting. If you don't give a compelling reason then you're in a competitive environment. And if WP engine eats your lunch, just suck it up. Don't try to use your underlying power through your association with the open source project, you are poisoning the well to such a degree. I mean, what's going to happen now? 100% I hope WP engine forks it and does two things. I hope they fork it, I hope they do whatever the hell they want with it. And then I hope they release an actual open source version that they continue to maintain that they don't interfere with. I want them to replace automatic. Automatic has shown itself to be an.
[00:24:07] Speaker A: Irresponsible, that's probably not super easy to do. Not just from like it's a lot to build, but like I think there actually are some like licensing things in the GP. I don't know the details with all that crap.
One of the things that really bothers me, and this has bothered me for years, ever since I've ever been working in WordPress there. And you're seeing it come out in the way that Matt talks. Like the thing that he says on stage. The justification for all this is that all these other companies, they are contributing enough, whereas WP engine is not this guilt trip to the whole, it's none.
[00:24:44] Speaker B: Of your damn business.
[00:24:46] Speaker A: I hate this concept of guilting people into if you're successful then you owe it, then you owe x dollars or hours or code contributions to, you don't have. Yeah, because there's this underlying argument there that like WordPress is only successful, it's only powering half the Internet because of the fact that it's open source and so many people have freely contributed to it. That's a factor. But there's always been this stance toward businesses that power WordPress that like they have no part in the growth of WordPress. And in my view, like it's, they're sort of like everything. Like that's really what, what powered WordPress into the leading position. Because if you go back ten years.
[00:25:39] Speaker B: I like when I was really economic incentive to make it better, to grow it, to expand it, but also in.
[00:25:46] Speaker A: The market for as a product, bring.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: It to other people.
[00:25:49] Speaker A: When, when I was sort of in WordPress, which was mostly around 2000, 920, 1020 eleven selling WordPress themes and then getting into restaurant engine and things like that, that's when it was really gaining a lot of steam and becoming the leader in the CMS platforms.
From my view, the driving force behind that was not that WordPress itself was such a nice piece of software that the open source community is creating. No, what was actually driving that were companies like Woothemes and studio press and the other. And like gravity forms was an early player and like, you know, these, these companies that are selling really quality products and offering quality customer support to customers who cause customers. Yes, you're gonna get a lot of free users on these free open source tools. There was Joomla, there was drupal, there.
[00:26:46] Speaker B: Were all these things, premium help.
[00:26:48] Speaker A: But if you want small businesses or large businesses to actually use them, they need to pay money to real companies who are offering real support and real quality products. Pagely.
[00:26:58] Speaker B: That's the way Paisley was like first, right?
[00:27:00] Speaker A: Paisley was one of the first hosting providers and then WP engine. But like before all them, there was like studio press and woo themes selling some of the only paid themes and plugins.
[00:27:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:13] Speaker A: And they were small businesses and clients want to buy a, they don't want the free one, they want the paid one so that they know that they have a customer support. You know, like that's what actually made WordPress the leader in the beginning. And actually, but at the time, and this always bothered me, it was like you go to a word camp if you're, if you're a little bootstrapper trying to sell a plugin or sell a theme into WordPress and just trying to make a living for yourself, you're a small guy, you are not allowed to talk about your paid products at a word camp.
[00:27:44] Speaker B: Right.
[00:27:45] Speaker A: Because they're anti business, anti product. It's all about the community. It's like, that's what's driving it. You know, you go to these Wordcamps, it's all people doing business on WordPress, you know?
[00:27:54] Speaker B: Yes, yes. And that should be.
It is a bit like you put your baby out into the world and you don't really control how it grows up. That is just a reality. And part of the beauty, the part of the beauty is releasing something and then human creativity, self interest, business motivation just takes it into places you don't know where it's gonna go. This is the thing, the experience that I had that sealed the deal for me to not want to bring rally into woocommerce when I was doing my research and talking to everybody in the ecosystem and trying to figure out like, who should we partner with? How do we make this entry point like should we, like, this was basically, do we go towards salesforce commerce cloud up or do we go toward woocommerce down for basically more distribution but lower average merchant? And I got into this slack group with like basically everybody in this ecosystem. And Matt was in there and what I saw from him in there like shocked me. What I saw was people running a plugin, a one person company from Pakistan being a creative individual on the Internet trying to make a living by selling a premium plugin.
And they would come into the slack group and say, I don't know what to do. My plugin keeps getting stolen, it keeps getting downloaded through the open source. And then someone puts up a website and throws a different name on it and they're selling my plugin and I see my source code and like, what am I supposed to do here? And Matt's point of view was this is open source and you have to just deal with it.
And if you're gonna, if you're gonna have that stance and then not apply it to yourself, I have no respect for you.
[00:29:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:54] Speaker B: And I went over to some of the people that, people that brought me into that slack group and I pinged them and I was like, is this normal? Like this is a billionaire telling some individual creative person trying to make a living in Pakistan that they just have to deal with it. Sorry, WordPress has no part in your stuff getting stolen and is not interested in protecting you because that's the nature of open source. And the person stuck up was like, this is kind of what, what we deal with. And now it just feels like it has bubbled up at the highest level with, you know, the most competitive company, WP engine. And it has exposed the internal contradictions not only of the project itself but of the person who controls it.
[00:30:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And you know, you and me are sitting here on this podcast as two people doing business on the Internet, but we're not involved in WordPress really in any way. So we're here talking freely about this, this shit show. Think about all the WordPress companies right now who are operating products in the WordPress ecosystem. You literally don't see any of them tweeting or talking about this stuff.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: Everyone's scared.
[00:30:58] Speaker A: And because you have one guy at the head of automatic and this WordPress foundation who can literally control, who's showing the world right now that like this is the level of control that they.
[00:31:14] Speaker B: Could exert on this ecosystem, we didn't have control. Two, you thought you could trust us even if we did have control. And those two are both wrong. They're both everything that you went in and used as a foundation for the decision to go into this ecosystem and devote your career to it or your company to it or whatever amount of time or effort to it has been shown to rest on very shaky foundation.
[00:31:42] Speaker A: And you think about the bigger picture of those of us in this audience who are building businesses and we think about what does an exit look like in the next few years. All of a sudden there's this new factor that a potential acquirer would look at for a business that's built in the WordPress ecosystem. It's like, well, there's a question mark here. Is this a new form of platform risk?
[00:32:05] Speaker B: Right? I don't see a line item in your financial statements that says contribution to wp.org dot. And if you're doing $20 million a year right now and we're going to acquire your company, we're going to try to take it to $100 million. Do we need to add a line item, you know, aka Bribery, as part of our business model? Otherwise we're at a threat because I don't know how to value that because I don't.
[00:32:30] Speaker A: This whole thing, especially because of the, how unclear Matt and automatic have been about what the actual terms are, it just adds a huge layer of unpredictability in the WordPress space. If you're doing business and it's pretty ugly, it's ugly.
By the way, WordPress also kind of sucks to use. So there's a lot of other tools out there that you could use for your website.
[00:32:54] Speaker B: Right. It was never about the quality of the underlying product. It was about the quality of the underlying community and what they did with the product.
[00:33:03] Speaker A: Yep, yep.
[00:33:04] Speaker B: Oh, yes. We'll be interested to see how it shakes out. It feels like there's a lot to lose for everybody, so hopefully that leads into some form of settlement, but it is not very easily repaired.
[00:33:15] Speaker A: Yep, yep.
[00:33:16] Speaker B: Anyone talk about our own problems?
[00:33:18] Speaker A: Sure, we've got plenty.
We do? Yeah. Let's see. I mean, we can talk about like clarity flow stuff. I've got other, other projects brewing, like new business projects. What's going on your end?
[00:33:36] Speaker B: So this week we.
I'm pretty sure I came to you. I basically went to every one of my peers.
We are encountering new things that we don't know how to do. One of those is very good analytics and tracking.
At rally, it didn't matter that much. It was like, what's our traffic like and where are our leads coming from?
Rosie feels much more like an analytics and optimization challenge. And so we really want to know where people are coming from. I'll give you a small example.
We are spending a decent amount on ads. Let's just call it a few hundred bucks a day. And let's say that this week we are paying $100 per conversion.
Now, we talked a little bit about the Facebook ads, the lead ads that we're doing that gives us the email address. And then on the final panel of that ad unit, there's a CTA. So right now, that $100 per conversion looks only at the people who actually convert directly from hitting the CTA. In the final panel of the ad unit, what we don't know, because we don't have good analytics yet.
[00:34:52] Speaker A: When you. Just to be clear, when you say convert, you mean like after they click that, they sign up for a. Like a free trial on the.
[00:35:00] Speaker B: Yes. The ad unit stays inside of Facebook. You put your email and your business name in and then you hit. Done. And then the success panel, the thing that says, we've got your lead, also has, hey, if you want to start a free trial, click here. So there's a CTA that goes to.
[00:35:15] Speaker A: What I'm saying is, like, this whole conversion flow happens in the same session for the user. It's all happening right now, today, I guess. I think that the thing that you're getting toward here is like tracking attribution for somebody who finds you today, hears about you, clicks on you today, but then signs up days or weeks in the future. How do we track that?
[00:35:35] Speaker B: One element of it, the element that I'm speaking of right now, is that a lot of those, for every ten emails we get in the Facebook lead ad, two of them convert directly from the ad in the CTA. The other eight get added to our email list and we automatically send them an email saying, thanks so much for your interest in Rosie. Here's what you need to know about it. Click here to sign up. So right now, I'm seeing it as $100 per conversion. In reality, it might be half that, if not less than.
[00:36:04] Speaker A: Cause over time you can convert.
[00:36:06] Speaker B: Yes. And now I'm making a decision on how much money to spend on ads based on bad information, because I don't know what the actual cost to acquire. If it's at dollar 100, I'm kind of happy and I'm pushing forward and cool. If it's dollar 25, I'm ramping up my ad. Spend two x, three x, four x. So that's like a very real example of, like, we don't have good data and we are not making good decisions until we have better data.
[00:36:30] Speaker A: So I'm absolutely no expert on this, but I spent a lot of hours going down the rabbit hole and trying to solve that problem. In the early days of clarity flow, especially the year where I was changing from zip message to clarity flow, I was trying to make that huge decision, being as data driven as possible, understanding which users and where are they coming from, which ones are most valuable. Okay. They are the coaches. And okay, that's informing my. So I spent a lot of those months trying to rig up how we track new users on our marketing site into analytics tools, into. We've used Mixpanel, we've tried Google Analytics, use plausible, we use custom tracking on stuff.
I guess the couple high level learnings and takeaways that I came from, that is, I want to do a shout out to Ruben Gamas. He helped me at the time. This was a couple of years ago.
Just basically be like, look, at the end of the day, the easiest way is to set a cookie on the user coming to your coming to. So the first time a new user lands on any site, any page on my site, they're getting a cookie on their browser. And in that browser, in that cookie, we are storing which domain sent them, the referring domain. If there's a source attribute, if there's a medium, there's a campaign. We're also storing which landing page you landed on first. So we just store that information in a cookie, and then we get the data out of that cookie later whenever they convert, and then we pass that along to our tools.
[00:38:18] Speaker B: I use the word cookie in this context all the time. I don't know what a cookie is.
When you say that, are you doing anything out of the ordinary? I thought we always set cookies. We use Google Tag manager. We kind of set cookies. We do retargeting.
[00:38:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Websites have been setting cookies for decades.
[00:38:32] Speaker B: Right, right. So you're saying that it's a little thing, ordinary.
[00:38:36] Speaker A: All the browsers allow you to set Cookie, and now, okay, you can wade into the stupid GDPR crap and you can put the stupid cookie banner on your website, which we haven't done.
[00:38:50] Speaker B: You're setting cookie on their browser. That way if they come back three days later, you can identify that cookie is the same as before.
[00:38:57] Speaker A: Yes, of course there's a loophole. Like if they use this browser today, but then they sign up later on their mobile phone or some other computer, then we can't track. But like 90% of the time they're using the same browser. So essentially, yes, because the other thing that I learned, at least the times when I've run ads and stuff is like, yeah, the ads platforms, the Facebook's and Google's, they will try to give you some conversion tracking. They'll even tell you that they track their cookies over a seven day period or whatever it is. I don't trust that. I've always found, especially on Facebook, that they just overestimate the number of conversions that they are taking credit for.
No surprise. But that has never actually mapped to, we can identify these number of conversions. The only way to finally do it is to just have your own tracking. Then what I literally do is the cookie is literally a little piece of data that gets stored in the backend of your web browser as a consumer visitor. Yep, as a visitor. And then in that little piece of data, it just says referring domain, Google first landing page, pricing page or homepage, whatever it is, if there was a source.
So all of our email marketing, we have like Source newsletter.
If we're sponsoring a specific website over there, we'll do like source that website so that later that little word is passed along. So then later when they sign up, we create a profile in stripe for that user and we set metadata in stripe on the user who just signed up. And in that metadata, which is like a key and a value, you can set whatever you want.
We say, hey, does this user have a cookie? If they do, what's in it? Let's get that data, store it in the. So we can literally look at any customer in our stripe account and say, like, we know that that customer originally found us through Google or through this other website.
[00:41:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:05] Speaker A: And then we use chart mogul for our SaaS metrics. And Chartmoggle just syncs with stripe. So all that data from stripe syncs to chart mogul.
So then in chart mogul we can look at MRR graphs and conversion graphs and churn graphs and filter those graphs. Like show me the MRR of just customers who found us via Google.
[00:41:30] Speaker B: Okay. I have not gotten, I feel like if I look all the way to the left, it's the cookie and the browser and the source. And then I look in front of me, I see the signup process, I see onboarding, I see activation. And if I look all the way to the right, I see stripe and payments and analytics around cohorts. So I'm starting on the left side and I'm sweeping through because we're redoing our sign up process right now and our onboarding and we're making that decision between putting the app on the subdomain or the root domain, how do we make sure the cookies go across the entire thing? So we're trying to get this visibility. What you just got up on chart mogul is like, next. But that, yeah.
[00:42:07] Speaker A: Okay. So the thing about the subdomain and the domain, we literally did it both ways. Zipmessage used to be one root domain, and now clarityflow has subdomains and it's actually a different sub domain for every account.
[00:42:20] Speaker B: Okay. Is there any pro and con?
[00:42:22] Speaker A: We were initially worried for other reasons in terms of, like, managing your websites and all that, but in terms of this tracking, if you take the approach that I've taken, which is we set a cookie on your browser, it doesn't matter.
[00:42:38] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:42:39] Speaker A: So, like, people land on our marketing site, which is clarityflow.com comma root domain. We set the cookie later when they buy, they're doing that on app dot. Clarityflow.com dot.
[00:42:50] Speaker B: Right. But you can still tell them, and you can push that data across your.
[00:42:53] Speaker A: Tool, whatever you use, because that user has a cookie in their browser. That's what we check.
[00:42:58] Speaker B: Okay. And we just signed up and are starting to use amplitude.
[00:43:02] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:43:02] Speaker B: And are very impressed so far. So talk to me in a month. But right now we are very happy with amplitude. It's just much easier to set up the Google Analytics much higher level of confidence. And next up, we'll see how things work across the subdomain and just make sure that we have that. Right.
[00:43:21] Speaker A: So I haven't really used amplitude much. I know it's a pretty good tool. I've used a mixpanel, which is the, like the equivalent or alternative to it.
I think there's a lot of confusion in these metrics tools. Overall, for a lot of people, I don't see mixed panel and amplitude as alternatives to Google Analytics. I see Google Analytics and I use plausible. Now there's also fathom analytics. These are for tracking traffic. Like, how much traffic is my website getting?
[00:44:00] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:44:01] Speaker A: But I see amplitude and mix panel as like, these are for tracking funnels and usage and conversions. Okay, cool. You know, because you got me a.
[00:44:11] Speaker B: Little worried there, because my goal is less about traffic and much more about where do good customers come from. Are we doing a good job in our activation flow? Like, so I'm much more worried about that.
[00:44:23] Speaker A: Right. That's what those are for. Amplitude is for, like, how many people signed up and then activated and then used this feature and then completed this activation goal? Like, yes, yes.
Because like, yeah, like, I wouldn't ditch a traffic tracking tool like a Google Analytics or plausible in favor of a mixed panel or amplitude. They're two separate use cases.
[00:44:49] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes sense. The bigger worry, the goal for us was this visibility across from the time the visitor hits a page. Because we are. What we're sensing is that it's an optimization problem on our hands. It is an activation. It's not so much a top of funnel demand. We feel like we have proven that people want what we've built and as we all know, that is part of the equation. It is not the entire equation, but people are not having an easy time onboarding and activating and launching because we haven't gotten there yet.
[00:45:26] Speaker A: Also, the other thing, in my experience, I look back on that period where I went down the rabbit hole of all these metrics, tracking tools and getting my dashboards all perfectly set up and the tracking all perfect, and I think it was important to have some level of that. But I look back thinking I regret how much time and hours I actually put into that project. Because knowing what I know now, the things that really impacted my business were talking to customers at like, so many conversations that just make it abundantly clear, like, this is what they care about. They don't care about that. And look, the vast majority of customers, they're coming for us. It's coming from either Google or word of mouth.
And there's just, you know, nothing more complicated than that, which is, I think.
[00:46:22] Speaker B: Our challenge will be different because we are going to try to go fast to meet the goals of our type of company. And so if we're going to spend 2030, $40,000 a month on these different marketing campaigns, like, we really need to understand what is going on so that we can refine instead of just aim blindly.
[00:46:40] Speaker A: I think the other thing though, like when I was trying to figure it out, that was back in the zip message days when we were doing lots of. We were trying to be a solution for all these different customers and customer groups. That was one of the things I was trying to figure out, like, is it the coaches? Is it the customer support teams? Is it the sales teams? Like, who is our customer?
So I was unsure, what is an activation for us? Is it when they send a message? Is it when they create an intake form? Is it when they do this or that? I didn't know. So that's why we're really trying to track where are they going in the app, where are they navigating to?
And now none of that really matters so much. It's just like we know exactly what a customer looks like and what they're trying to do and where we need them to go. So yeah, at the end of the day it was really just more about, and we haven't figured everything out yet obviously, but it just comes down to the product and talking to customers and what they need.
[00:47:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I wish there was less time and effort required to just track certain.
[00:47:46] Speaker A: Things, but I hate all these metrics things too, because it is still so hard to set it up and implement it. Nothing is plug and play. You need custom development to get it working.
[00:47:57] Speaker B: Yep, that's right. And I don't think we use framer to host our site. We can't look to them for that.
You really kind of have to do it on your own. It's pretty frustrating and everyone's got a different way to do it. Yep, yep. Well, that's like the big theme for us. What do you got going on? How's your ongoing experiment?
[00:48:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean with clarity flow it's going pretty well. We shipped the appointments feature like about two weeks ago and that's been settling in pretty nicely and customers are really using it and liking it. It's led to, I think, more conversion, like more signups this month. So September is still, it's going well. So now my developer is sort of in that like cool down period, like where I'm just giving her some small bugs to work on while, and she's waiting for the next big feature to start building. And I think that that next feature is going to be forms. This is, this is another one of those big features that people have been requesting for years and I've just been putting it off and putting it off. It's not as important as the other stuff. Well, now that we've built all the other important stuff, this is that next feature that everyone keeps asking about. So we're building a forms builder into clarity flow. So my role, like my routine now with clarity flow is roughly give or take, like once a month.
I need a week like this one where I'm spending two or three or four full days scoping out a big feature, multiple issues in linear, like lots of detail. The next product, like how is it going to be architected, how is it going to be designed? Like I do a lot of hours for like a one week period on that and then I queue it up for my developer and she runs with it for like six weeks.
[00:49:45] Speaker B: And then big thing on the list of like, this is what we now identified is the next big thing that users want.
[00:49:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know if you would call this like the basecamp shape up thing, but it sort of takes that shape where it's like, there's an upfront week of like, what are we actually building? What's the scope going to look like? I'm the product manager and the product designer on this, so I set it all up, I tee it up and then I hand it off to her and she runs with it for six weeks, mostly quiet. But like every week I'm seeing updates that I check in on the morning. I answer some questions that come up. I sort of approve things, but I'm not spending a lot of hours. Generally during the build phase, it's just sort of like, yep, I'm seeing boxes being checked. This is making progress. And then near the end, like six weeks from now, I sort of come back in and I do a bit. Another deep dive week effort where I fully test every little thing and I put the design polish on it and I get it ready to ship and then we do the deployment. But, like, that's like the routine now with clarity flow, it's like every four to six weeks I dive in hardcore and then I'm like, stepping back and I'm working on other stuff. For six weeks? Yeah.
[00:51:04] Speaker B: I mean, from the outside perspective, what I hope to see is you just keep that up over an extended period of time and it will just grow into.
[00:51:13] Speaker A: And that's what it's been, you know, and then only recently, we sort of figured out some things on the traffic and funnel and pricing sides that's been helping.
[00:51:21] Speaker B: We talked a bit before we started and we can end on this. You said there's been a real change in the way support. Anyone on your team interacts with people now that are prospects.
[00:51:36] Speaker A: This has been. This is one of the things I'm most excited about with the clarity flow trajectory at this point. We're not out of the woods yet in terms of, like, MRR goals or profitability goals and all that, but we're looking up, things are growing. The pricing experiment, meaning like, we've killed our trial, that's going well, our MRR is growing, but the thing that I'm most excited about is it's attracting different customers and they are better, more engaged users.
Kat, our customer success person, like, in her words, she said, like, hey, I'm just letting you know that, like, the customers that are coming through now every week into support and booking calls with her and doing async messaging with her, she's like, it's a palpable, noticeable change. They are so much more engaged.
She said before when we had trials, when we would get hundreds of trials, and literally her job, she felt was like chasing them down, like, hey, hey, I'm here to help. Listen to me. Watch my video message to you. I'm trying to help you get, get activated. And like 80% of those people will just not reply to her messages. And then they would try to use it and maybe convert or maybe drift away, you know.
Now it's like every single customer, because they pay upfront. Like, every single customer is ready and willing and happy to talk to Kat and then they have like, really great ongoing conversations and she's literally coaching them on how to get the most out of clarity flow and even like coaching them on how to structure their coaching business. You know, it's wild.
[00:53:19] Speaker B: It's not that it's a small change in terms of the pricing, right. But the impact around the psychology, the relationship.
[00:53:29] Speaker A: And that was my hope for it. That was part of the hypothesis, was like, less noise, let's just attract much more serious customers. And I think the next thing that I'm going to be looking for, because we still deal with a level of churn that's not ideal, but I think I'm starting to see that most of the churn is still people who converted to customers a few months ago.
Meaning it's not the newest customers who came in this month and last month who are churning. It's. It's the ones who went through trials previously.
[00:54:07] Speaker B: So you don't know yet what this cohort of.
[00:54:10] Speaker A: I don't know what this current cohort is gonna look like, but my hunch is that it's also gonna reduce churn because, because they are so engaged and so invested upfront, like multiple calls and messages with Kat, you know, and the other thing that I'm loving to see here, it's like, I know that it sounds like I might be like, overbuilding in clarity flow in terms of like, features and like we, we just built a calendar booking system.
We're about to build a whole forms builder built into clarity flow.
We have video messaging.
[00:54:45] Speaker B: That's a lot.
[00:54:46] Speaker A: We have so much.
But the whole point is that this type of product for this niche customer and the whole bet of moving into being clarity flow and being for coaches is like, we're trying to be the tool that they run their business and we're commerce too. They sell their products through us.
[00:55:06] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. Payments too. So a lot of people want all in one they don't want to patch together.
[00:55:11] Speaker A: I was looking at a screenshot or a video of one of our customers the other day, and I looked at her browser. And you know how you can have like bookmarks on the top bar of your browser? First bookmark, first big folder. Clarity flow. All caps. Like, it's the first bookmark in her browser. Like when I come into work and I look at my browser, I'm going to clarity flow, right.
[00:55:29] Speaker B: I have adopted this as the central element.
[00:55:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:33] Speaker B: Central tool in my business.
[00:55:35] Speaker A: And I also don't. Yes, we're building a lot of features, but I don't think that it's like everything.
It's not like we're being like their accounting system or their. I don't know what else.
We are really focused on client communication. They use clarity flow to communicate and run their client engagement. Yes. That's async messaging conversations. It's also how they sell engagements with their clients. That's a client transaction. It's how they book appointments to communicate with clients on their calendar. That's a client communication interaction. And now we're doing forms because they always ask us, how can I send my client a questionnaire or a quiz or a survey or an assessment?
That's a form of communication between them and their clients. Yeah, we're building a lot of features, but all these features are aimed at the mission, if you will, of like, it's for communicating with your clients and for all of your communications needs. If you're a coach, you're doing appointments, you're doing forms, you're doing video messages, you're doing, you know, are there, are.
[00:56:46] Speaker B: There big items on the list that you still feel like you need to tackle over the next six months that, that help create that, you know, you're building an island.
[00:56:55] Speaker A: It's like, forms is like, is like the biggest one remaining.
I talked about the other the other week and this is still on my mind for the semi near future. Is maybe like a white label version of Clarity flow. That's a different strategic move, I think.
[00:57:14] Speaker B: Yeah, slightly different audience and so on.
[00:57:16] Speaker A: That's more about like fixing a problem with a small segment of the users who really want a white label version and optimizing the revenue for those customers.
[00:57:29] Speaker B: It feels like a monetization feature, but.
[00:57:32] Speaker A: The forms thing and the appointments thing and everything else, that's more about making the core product as perfect as it can be for our 90% of users.
Cool. That's where we got on that it's still just a slow ramp SaaS and I'm still doing consulting work, which is ongoing and putting me back in a pretty comfortable position overall.
But there's still this hovering layer of stress and frustration around. Like, I still am trying to build another asset and I don't have the time or bandwidth to do that. So that's the thing.
[00:58:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know how people go about that. Do they hire themselves? You know, like, no, I'm booked for two weeks at the end of October.
[00:58:21] Speaker A: Yeah, but I am sort of doing that like, like right now I have upcoming client engagements already booked that. Like, like I told them, like we're starting that 1 October 20 and then I have another one. Like it's going to start in November. So like, I have a calendar that's booked out, which is good, but I'm actually now trying to decide, like do I start to just intentionally ramp down my consulting or do I keep the consulting going and just really delegate most of it to a developer? I would still need to be involved and still do a lot of the work, but I could reduce at least a day or two of my work if I have a developer build out these projects versus me doing it.
But the other weird, the thing that conflicts with that is that with every project that I'm doing, I'm building MVP rails applications for clients. I've built a bunch of them this year. Every time I build a project, I'm getting faster and faster. At building MVP projects.
I literally have a library of components and an app template that keeps getting better and better. I've built a couple recently where implemented stripe payments for these SaaS MVP products and now I'm doing that on the next one. And it's going to take me like a fraction of the time because I've already built it, I'm reusing it. It's a component and I have that for basically everything in a SaaS. So it's like, yes, I could take more consulting projects, it's taking more of my time, but each of these consulting projects is actually taking less time to deliver. So it's like weighing all these different things.
[01:00:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I just want to identify that internal value that you generate for yourself by implementing stripe for one app and then going over to the next and having it be really easy.
I wonder if that's a lot of the value that you can offer in the type of community that you have been talking about.
[01:00:23] Speaker A: That's exactly what I'm trying to build. It's like I want to sell a app, components, library product.
[01:00:31] Speaker B: You're almost selling that.
[01:00:33] Speaker A: I haven't like, it's mostly built. I just need to productize it.
[01:00:36] Speaker B: Yeah, fair. Cool.
[01:00:36] Speaker A: But I don't have the time or bandwidth to do it, so that's the question of, like, do I ramp it down? The consulting? I could financially swing that for a few months, but how much do I want it to dry up?
[01:00:48] Speaker B: And you might have to buy a rivian at any moment.
[01:00:52] Speaker A: I mean, you know, the urge to buy a rivian could happen anytime.
[01:00:56] Speaker B: Speaking of, I'm going. I'm driving into the city. There you go, dude. Time to roll.
Great episode. A little ragey in the middle there.
[01:01:04] Speaker A: But it was good. That was fun.
[01:01:05] Speaker B: Oh, hell, yeah. Thanks for listening, everyone.
[01:01:08] Speaker A: Have a great week. Later.
