April 11, 2024


Sell to SaaS?

Hosted by

Jordan Gal Brian Casel
Sell to SaaS?
Bootstrapped Web
Sell to SaaS?

Apr 11 2024 | 00:35:15


Show Notes

Exploring products that sell to SaaS.  Flights.  Credit card points.  Passover.  Elections.  Twitter.  Validation.  No-kids vacations.

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Episode Transcript

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hey, it's bootstrapped web, and it is Thursday. This is new for us. We usually record on Fridays, but I'm traveling tomorrow, and you messaged me, and we are making it happen this week before I head out. Yes. [00:00:15] Speaker B: Our general policy is if we're not available on Friday, there is no podcast that week. [00:00:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I assumed that this was going to be an off week, but I don't know. You were hyped about getting on the mics, and now I'm hyped, so let's do it. Okay. [00:00:29] Speaker B: I have to get rehyped. [00:00:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:00:31] Speaker B: Because my last week has been characterized by so many conversations. [00:00:37] Speaker A: I bet. And today, dude, you're in this whirlwind. I know it all too well, where you're just like, one day or one week goes by and you're super psyched about an idea, and then it's like, no, not that. That was wrong. Now I'm on to the next idea and maybe this, maybe that, and talking to people. Yeah. [00:00:55] Speaker B: Yeah. The hype cycle that we've talked about. But I get really energized from conversations with people, especially people I haven't either ever spoken to or haven't spoken to in a long time, and then I could catch up. It's a little bit social. It's some business, but it's fun to have, like, 20 conversations going, ranging from DM's all the way to, like, zoom and email and everything else. So, yep, that part's fun. But today in particular, I had a lot of those. And then I went and volunteered at the cafeteria in the elementary school with, like, a hairnet and some gloves, handing out pizza to these very awkward, like, eight year olds. [00:01:34] Speaker A: Oh, that's great. [00:01:35] Speaker B: So I'm a little fried, but it's okay. [00:01:37] Speaker A: Nice. Nice. Yeah. Tomorrow, super early in the morning, Amy and I are hopping on a plane. We're going down to Florida Keys for a buddy's wedding, and then we're gonna extend it into a no kids vacation next week. Sounds great. [00:01:52] Speaker B: I'm heading to New York to my brother's birthday party. Manhattan night out on Saturday. [00:01:58] Speaker A: I want to actually ask you about this. Might as well do it on the pod. Let's talk travel for a minute. Let's talk flying. So give me your lay of the land of your routines. So we have a super early flight tomorrow, and I think that's pretty typical for us. We tend to do early flights. Do you do, like, early in the morning, or do you usually book stuff, like, at, like, a comfortable time of the day? Or do you do night flights? Any. [00:02:25] Speaker B: Okay. So it's very much split between business travel and family travel. Like, different approach, different mindset entirely. [00:02:33] Speaker A: Yep. Right. [00:02:34] Speaker B: So when I'm traveling by myself for work, it is a very selfish. What do I want, you know, compared to. With the family? It's like, well, is it going to be. Are they going to be hungry? Like, a whole range of issues, of course. But since moving to Chicago, I am now a united person. [00:02:53] Speaker A: Same here. Okay. We're all united. Yep. [00:02:55] Speaker B: So I got. I got myself the United credit card. [00:02:59] Speaker A: Like, same here. Yeah. I want to thank rich. [00:03:03] Speaker B: I went with the fancy one, and I. Now I get the lounges. All that. [00:03:07] Speaker A: Same here. Yeah. So I do that and. And we have. So I use that for the business and another united card for the family card, and then we pull the miles. So we've just got tons of miles all the time. I mean, you know, we'll just fly first on basically everything we do, you know? [00:03:22] Speaker B: Do you help me understand that? Cause I got. [00:03:27] Speaker A: I got. [00:03:28] Speaker B: I have something similar between. [00:03:30] Speaker A: I have Chase that I use for in Chase's world. Okay. Yeah. [00:03:35] Speaker B: When you're in Chase's world. I know. I feel like I'm supposed to be sending the points to United and then buying. [00:03:43] Speaker A: Yeah. I never did. So when I was. When I was doing all the Chase cards, you know, like the Sapphire and the this and the Chase Inc. For business, that, too, lets you pool all the points. But I was never, like, I just. I just read that, like, chase was the best point system, so I just committed to that. [00:04:03] Speaker B: Yeah, same. [00:04:04] Speaker A: But all I ever did with that was collect a lot of points and then just cash them in for cash. And I know that that's, like, the not ideal value. [00:04:12] Speaker B: It's money. [00:04:13] Speaker A: But, like, one time I tried to book a flight through Chase's platform, and it, like, messed up the seats and this and that. I was like, I don't. I'll just do the, you know, but. But what I learned over time was that, like, okay, yeah, you'll accumulate a lot of credit card points, and you can get some cash back for that, and it can pay for, like, half of a vacation here and there. So that's kind of nice, but you're still basically paying for your flights no matter where you go, and you're flying on all these different airlines. And then this past year, had a good conversation with my buddy rich, and he was like, you got to get on the United game plan here. I switched out all the cards to United, so we only fly United. The Hartford airport here, it's all united flights. [00:05:00] Speaker B: That's awesome. [00:05:01] Speaker A: So every time we fly and everything we buy is building up United points. So then every flight we buy, we just go onto united.com and pay with miles and do just the normal. So we have one main family card for groceries and life with the family and then the business card. So everything on the business goes there. So all of that stuff, just the normal spending, gives us like several hundred thousand dollars. Several hundred thousand miles a year. So like, I don't fly like, as much as you do. I do a bunch of trips, but like, for the most part, it's, we're flying first or, you know, economy plus. [00:05:45] Speaker B: Yeah, that was, that's my question because I think, unlike you, where there's nothing more satisfying than buying travel, you know, for free, so that's where I spend the miles. [00:05:58] Speaker A: But it does seem like switching to United, it's like we're flying for free. Whereas when we were in chase, we were still paying for it for whatever reason. [00:06:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I still, I have an Amex personal and I also do chase with the business. So I'm, I'm using those portals and booking United flights. I'm going to United, see which flight I want to go. Then I go here and I book it. I do the same thing with Hertz, my Amex give me some like president club on Hertz thing. And that is actually worth it because you just walk right to your car because, you know, renting a car is the worst experience. [00:06:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't think I've, like, optimized the car thing. I think I still just get whatever. Okay. [00:06:39] Speaker B: The car thing I like. Because that has ruined my mood. At the beginning of vacations, before, I had the worst experience of my rental car experiences. When we got to Hawaii, we went to Hawaii. And I was in disbelief. I was there, I don't know, 2 hours, two and a half hours. I was like, I'm trying not to scream. [00:07:00] Speaker A: I can't stand it. Cars and hotels too. It's like, dude, I booked this online. You have all of my information. Why am I standing here? Why do you need my id? What are you typing into the computer? I just need a key so I. [00:07:12] Speaker B: Can go to my, feels like it's getting better. With the electronic cards. You can check in on your phone and then use your phone as, as the key card. So that feels like it's getting better. [00:07:21] Speaker A: Yeah. For some reason I'm, I'm not there yet. I don't know why. [00:07:25] Speaker B: Feels better because all the lots are the closest to the airport. And then if you do the president club thing, then your name is up on the board, and it just tells you what spot your car's in. And the, you know, there are few things more satisfying than just walking past a line of miserable people and just going right to your car and leaving. [00:07:43] Speaker A: So our thing that sucks now is that we, where we live in Connecticut, we are not very close to the airport, so we're like a good hour drive from Hartford, and we're like an hour 20 from like, New York LaGuardia. So. So tomorrow we have like a 06:00 a.m.. Flight. So, so what we, you know, we just get a hotel the night before at the airport and then we go. Yeah. [00:08:04] Speaker B: Go in the morning. [00:08:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I do a lot. [00:08:08] Speaker B: I love it. My general thinking is I should travel more. I should stop waiting. I should take my kids to see things in the world that I want them to see. Like, that's my mindset lately, you know, for a while after moving, you know, something about the move or something, just. I just didn't want to go anywhere. Just want to be left alone, just stay home. [00:08:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:29] Speaker B: And now I am like, well, if I want my kids to see Europe, you know what I got to do? I got a book flight. That's all I got to do. I just got to book some flights. [00:08:37] Speaker A: Yeah, my kids love, love to travel, and we do, too. So it's like, we don't really have any issues on planes. We've taken them to Asia and stuff and. Yeah. So, yeah, we'd like to do more of it. Anyway, that's the travel podcast today. That was fun. [00:08:55] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. Speaking of travel, I screwed up Microconf also. Microconf screwed up. Why would you do it during Passover? Yeah, so, yes, I'm not willing to miss Passover this year. It's very, very important to me, especially this year. So I'm not going to microconf. I tweeted, if anyone needs a ticket, let me know if I end up selling it for really cheap or giving away or something. [00:09:19] Speaker A: Yeah. I thought about trying to grab a ticket last minute, but I'm, you know, between the Florida trip, I'm going to need to get back and get rested, and I have so many projects happening right now that it's just so, I'm so psyched for next week to sit and lounge around and hang out and hang out with some long time old friends at the wedding and everything. So that's going to be a nice relaxation, because I've been really grinding hard on work, but I am going to return to a lot more projects coming up, so. Okay. Okay. [00:09:53] Speaker B: Well, I'm trying to figure out what project to go toward. [00:09:57] Speaker A: Yep. [00:09:58] Speaker B: So you and I got into a conversation before we started recording. It's related to a product idea that I'm working with. And it is selling to SaaS companies. [00:10:13] Speaker A: Yep. [00:10:13] Speaker B: And we had, we had a little debate on whether or not that's a good idea or bad idea. [00:10:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:21] Speaker B: Let's get into it. What are some pros and cons? [00:10:23] Speaker A: You know, we're not going to talk about the thing that you're actually considering or anything, but. Yeah. Like, part of that discussion was whether or not, in general, we should pursue products that sell to SaaS companies as a space, as an industry. And I think, like anything else, I don't think that there's any dogmatic correct or incorrect thing. I think it's very situational. But I tend now, these days, and for the particular thing that you were talking about, I tend to lean toward like e. I don't know about Sass as the answer for that one. And also a few, like, more general things that we were talking about. I know that Patrick Campbell has published some pretty good content on this. I forgot exactly where. But SaaS is not as big as we all think it is as a space. There's just not that many successful SaaS companies compared to other things like e commerce or whatever. Other things like other spaces. [00:11:32] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:32] Speaker A: There aren't that many organizations that need help desk tools or organizations that need CRM or organizations. Yeah. If you're selling specifically to SaaS, there's not that many of them. And then there's the other challenge that we were talking about. I think this applies to a lot of different types of tools where it's like, I think the nature of SaaS, that with it being recurring and subscription based, that's true of their customer basis, but that's also true of their infrastructure and the thing. So, like, once I figure out a problem in my business and I buy a tool for that and I install it and it works. [00:12:11] Speaker B: Yeah, leave it alone. [00:12:12] Speaker A: We're good. I don't want to switch it. No matter how much better the alternatives are, I just don't want to switch. And I think that's the case for a lot of stuff. Yes. [00:12:21] Speaker B: The switching. It's not even switching cost. I know that's the term. It's switching pain, friction, the emotional, the psychological. Like, I don't want to deal with it. [00:12:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:34] Speaker B: There are some inherent advantages. One of the advantages that I have found over the last few days in my research is the ability to talk to people. [00:12:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Personal founder advantage can't be taken lightly. I think, like, especially anytime you have some sort of personal inroad advantage, you gotta consider, I think, and that I had multiple businesses that I made that calculation. Like, I remember specifically, one of the biggest reasons back in the day now that when I sold restaurant engine was because I was selling to restaurants and I did not want to travel to the restaurant industry conference and talk to restaurants all the time, and I had trouble reaching them. My next business was audience ops, which basically sold to SaaS for the most part. And in that scenario, at that time and that type of service in that market, this was back in 2015, it worked pretty well for me because I was solving a problem that SaaS really had, particularly at that time, which was blog content and not as figured out as it is today, but also my network, this podcast had already begun by that point, but I had been networked with SaaS. I was going to Microconf and stuff like that. That definitely helped that business early on. [00:14:03] Speaker B: Yeah, it feels like I can get 50 customers myself by talking to people for three months. [00:14:11] Speaker A: I would say there's a big. But here, that was a service business, that was productized service. Yeah. [00:14:18] Speaker B: You don't need that many customers. [00:14:19] Speaker A: You don't need that many customers for it to be good. And then later I did multiple SaaS attempts, process kit and I started zip message. And both of those, if not exclusively, they didn't solely target SaaS, but like, I tried to sell it to a lot of SaaS companies and I had a hard time with those products for different reasons. But some of it was like Sass just don't want to switch from what they're using, you know, and every SaaS has their own unique preferences and needs. And I did find it easier, like in zip message, when I pivoted to clarity flow. It's not fully figured out yet, but I am finding it easier to connect with coaches pain points and solving their problems than I did with selling zip message to SaaS remote teams in general. [00:15:18] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a funny thing because they. [00:15:20] Speaker A: Were too comfortable with things like loom, you know? [00:15:22] Speaker B: Sure, sure. Yeah. You. I don't even know what, what the answer is that you have to do something so different that it gets them to leave or you have to actually make it so easy to switch that, that they're willing to do it or you have to catch them at the right time, or you kind of just have to be in the market long enough that as people do switch and do start new companies, that they're jumping onto your service first and you've got to lock in. [00:15:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I remember thinking in process kit early on, like that was. So process kit was like a tool for creating processes and then assigning them to your team. So if you have a very systematic team, systematic, process oriented team, and the idea was, and what I learned talking to a lot of customers on that was, if your team is like ten people or more, 1520 people or more, you are very process oriented, but you are already all set in your systems and your tools. So you are not going to adopt a new tool like process kit because you've already figured out your processes system using other tools. And then what I found was, if I try to sell this to five person teams who are on the upswing and they need their processes, then it works for them and they adopt it, and then they can hopefully grow into it. They can hopefully grow their team with process kit. And that did work for some customers, but it had other challenges. Then I also challenged the question of, should the strategy be targeting the small guys and then hope that they grow into our product? I tried that. I don't love it. It seems better to have a product that you can sell directly to large, established companies who have no problem paying for tools, you know? [00:17:19] Speaker B: So here's my take on that, my current take, because I have had different takes throughout the last few years, one of the criteria we talked about for an idea that we want to pursue is low friction, self serve, very scalable. Right. If you have a good month, you signed up 20 customers last month, and then this month you have a good month and you sign 100 customers. I want that to feel pretty similar inside the company. I don't want that to create five times more calls, five times more support. I want the scalability of self serve. And going after sophisticated SaaS companies that are willing to pay $500 a month for a tool is antithetical to that. So it's not like, can it be done? Yes, it can be done. You can sell a $50 tool with freemium tier to SaaS companies and you can get customers. But is that a spot in the market that's worth going after? If, by definition, your average revenue per user is, let's call it $100 because some are free, some are 50, some are at 250. Whatever it is, I want 10,000 customers. [00:18:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:42] Speaker B: Are there 10,000 customers? I don't know. [00:18:46] Speaker A: I mean, because I think the other challenge that we talked about was like, again, if you're targeting the startups, so the ones that are not big enough yet to already be set with their tools, then, then even if you win most of those startups, most of them are going to fail. So right out of the gate, even if you win all of them, only a small percentage of can even be eligible to continue with your product. So that, that limits you out of the gate. But then the other thing that we talked about was like, I, it depends on the category of the tool, but I don't want to sign up for a tool. To me, simplicity is not necessarily a feature or a benefit. I do want the thing to feel intuitive and easy to use, but in general, I want tools that have the power that I need, whether I think I'll need that in the future or I need it now, I'm not going to commit to a tool now knowing it's limited in simplicity and knowing that, like, there's a, like, if my business is successful, we're going to need more complexity, so we will change tools later. Like, I'm not going to make that calculation. I don't want to do that. [00:20:00] Speaker B: Okay. I'm having, I can formulate the vision in my head. I have not yet been able to articulate what it looks like as a business model, maybe more so than just the product. The only thing that comes to mind is 37 signals is the approach and the vibe that those products give, which is it's relatively simple. It does not have the bells and whistles. If you want those bells and whistles, do not look to us to build them, go somewhere else. So, because, not because I'm such a badass that I can tell everyone to go screw themselves. It's just that if you leave that spot in the market, you are in for a world of pain and complexity and onboarding friction. Most importantly, you are in for a world of hurt around onboarding friction. [00:21:01] Speaker A: I think 37 signals in basecamp in particular. It's weird, I have such a conflicted view because I happen to be a big fan of them as a company and Jason Fried and DHH and everything. But yeah, I've tried basecamp as a product to use as my project management tool. I think the last time that I tried it was maybe two years ago, something like that. This was before I sort of, I don't love notion, but I've sort of defaulted to notion these days. But I've used basecamp multiple times over the past 1015 years. And the most recent time was like two years ago. And I took a brief look at the, hey, email product, and in both cases I was like, it's clever, it's simple, but man, it is too simple or too. It doesn't have some of the power features that I would need. And then that sort of speaks to a SaaS founder or a SaaS company sometimes. Stupid simple things like, oh, you guys don't have kanban boards? I kind of need that in a project management tool or just little things like that. [00:22:14] Speaker B: I want to be in the, I. [00:22:16] Speaker A: Know that they've added kanban boards. I know, but then I even tried it. I was like, oh, but you can't reorder it or this or that. [00:22:21] Speaker B: It's like, okay, so here's the question. Basecamp, clearly uber successful. [00:22:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:29] Speaker B: How can it be that it's so successful if their general approach is, no, we're not going to build that for you. [00:22:37] Speaker A: I just think that, well, first of all, today's success for basecamp is because they are basecamp. They've been around a while. Um, so, so there's that. There's that there, there's like that natural momentum thing. I don't think that, like, SaaS companies are really their best customers anymore. Cause I think most, most cat, most SaaS companies are using notion or whatever other. [00:22:58] Speaker B: So is it that basecamp is wide enough, is horizontal enough of a product that the potential. [00:23:04] Speaker A: The real estate agents, the teachers, the. [00:23:07] Speaker B: You know, nonprofits, I mean, whatever, they. [00:23:13] Speaker A: Probably still get a lot of like, web design agencies, small ones, you know. [00:23:17] Speaker B: So is that the key, the ability to say, screw you, I'm not building that for you? Does that have to go along with a massive potential market? [00:23:29] Speaker A: I don't think it has to be massive, but I think it has to be non technical. So, like, selling a product to insurance agents, selling a product to doctors, selling a product to dentists or real estate agents, they are not going to want or need all of the bells and whistles that I don't know. What's something that SaaS uses a lot, just super automation tools where you got to send a lot of data back and forth. Like, they're not gonna care about that stuff. They're gonna care about like, booking appointments and then. So, like, if you niche down, it's like the bootstrapper playbook, you niche down, you'd be like, x, popular tool for doctors, for lawyers, right? Yeah. [00:24:20] Speaker B: Okay. [00:24:21] Speaker A: And so that helps from marketing, but then on the product, you can, like, really make the product ideal for them. Like, that's what I did with coaches was like, we started adding all these features that only coaches would ever care about. Yes. [00:24:32] Speaker B: And I think that's the right way to start. [00:24:36] Speaker A: I wish I had started that way. I did the other thing. [00:24:38] Speaker B: I want to go, look, I just made the same mistake of trying to go out and creating a category. It's not that it was a mistake. It just didn't work. So what? Okay, now I'm reacting to that. Maybe I'm overcompensating. And I'm saying I want to go into a very established, gigantic competitive ecosystem with hundreds of options and be purpose built for one use case and do a better job on that. I think that's a logical approach. Hmm. Mm hmm. [00:25:10] Speaker A: It's a. [00:25:11] Speaker B: Okay, here's a question. Here's a question, here's a question, here's a question. If you're not sure because you're getting conflicting messages. In my research the last few days, I have one person say that they wanna invest, where to send the check. I have one person that says, I would sign up today because I'm using x and I'm embarrassed that I'm using that and I want to do better. And I had another person explain basically exactly that I'm on the right track. Then I talked to someone else who's in the space and said, absolutely not. This is a world of hurt. Do not do this. I talked to someone else that I really respect who was like, I just don't see where the opportunity is given conflicting information. How do you. [00:25:52] Speaker A: That's the hardest thing, man. [00:25:53] Speaker B: Yeah, of course. So where do you go next? Do you just build a landing page? Do you just say something on Twitter? My take is next week I want to set up conversations with ten SaaS founders, me and Jess, right, our vp of product. We jump on. [00:26:07] Speaker A: I think the thing we were saying earlier, I think the thing that we were saying earlier about using your personal advantage and your network in SaaS that can easily work against you and that has worked against me. As much as I appreciate all the help and feedback that I've received from friends and advisors and networks. Look, it's just all more supportive than you generally need it to be. So there's just going to be more support for you as a person, as a founder. And whereas if that. This is one of the things that I've come to appreciate about selling to a quote unquote, foreign industry, like people who don't know me or I get told no a lot, and that's really helpful information, like, why is it not working for you? [00:27:07] Speaker B: As opposed to the danger of jumping on with me getting excited about it and then getting a false sense of, hey, we talked to ten people and six of them are ready to. [00:27:17] Speaker A: Yeah, that happened to me multiple times where I, where I pitch a product or even ask for investment and get investment offers and this and that and people. People have pre purchased products from me paying hundreds of dollars only to never use it. [00:27:34] Speaker B: That's supposed to be the ideal validation, actual money. [00:27:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's why I've learned that that's sort of bullshit, you know, I just don't. I. That's why I, personally, I've come to the conclusion that, like, you can't validate until you have a product ready to sell and give to customers and have them start using it today. And. And if they use it and continue to use it, then it's validated pre selling. My take is. That's b's, you know? [00:28:02] Speaker B: Hmm. [00:28:04] Speaker A: So what do you do? So then it's like, what do you do? Right? Like, yes. I don't know. It's. I don't know, like, gut instinct. Talk to more people. I do think that, like, you can. You can psych yourself into, like, oh, I have to talk to 50 people before I allow myself to build anything. I also don't agree with that. I think it's easy enough to start building, especially when you have a team at your disposal. Yeah. [00:28:30] Speaker B: It's almost like a willingness to quit. You have to be willing to go six weeks in. [00:28:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:35] Speaker B: And launch some type of funky mvp that supposedly does the most valuable thing and then looking around and saying, that changed my mind. [00:28:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, so if you're going to compare, spend eight weeks only talking to people and not building anything and that, like, yeah, you can talk to 100 people, but then you have to, like, like, parse and see. Do I really trust what that person actually told me, yes or no. Versus spending eight weeks. Yeah. Talking to some people, but also building. And then at the end of that eight weeks having something to say. Here. Here's the thing. You can use it today. It costs this. What do you think? And then, you know, then you just know, you know? And. And look, it is possible to build and ship a thing in two months. People can dispute that, but it's absolutely possible. Yeah. That depends on what. Internally, you know, pare it down. Simple. MVP. And you can do it. Yes. [00:29:34] Speaker B: That's what we're talking about internally. This is, this is partly why we love Laravel because when we look around at Laravel, between the admin, the tailwind elements, the connections to different services, we look at that and we say, you know, in eight weeks we can get something functioning that does. One use case and a bunch of conversations and a bunch of feedback does not mean that it's going to be successful. It means that we have enough information to say, do we like where this is going? Or even if this worked out, it wouldn't be good anyway. [00:30:10] Speaker A: So let's stop. You're still going to have the early customers who can put up, who can put up with the bugs. They can put up with the lack of feature parity with the competitors. But they are, they are in love with your special sauce, and that's what you build first. Right. And those are going to be the early adopters. And I don't personally consider myself to be like an, I don't buy other products that are like super MVP, you know, but there, but, you know, I've had those customers in my products and they exist. Yeah. [00:30:40] Speaker B: Look, when, when we launched the checkout, it was, it was, I don't want to say garbage, but it was not functioning. It was not, it wasn't working. And the strength of the feedback is what kept us going because it wasn't. This sucks. Is it worth it? It was. Whoa. If we get this right, this is going to be a hit. That's what pushed us to keep going. I guess in the situation that we're in right now, the most important thing is to set expectations that we are not committed to this yet. We are going to build and prove that it's worth, worth committing. We need to view this skeptically. [00:31:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I like it. [00:31:23] Speaker B: I think that's how we can do it in such a way where we've challenging ourselves and also in such a way that I won't break the enthusiasm and will of the engineering team building. Because from the beginning we're going to be saying, we're not, I'm not sure. We're not sure. We're not committed. [00:31:38] Speaker A: But going, all right, going back to that question, like thinking about SaaS or thinking about whatever market you're thinking about targeting, you know, like, you and I have both followed politics over the years, right. And like, presidential politics and everything. And you hear these politicians talk about, like, can you make a case for how, for your path to victory? Right. [00:32:05] Speaker B: Like, is it a game worth playing? [00:32:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Can you actually make a case where, like, this is how we get enough delegates, this is how we win the right states and this and that. And if the answer is like, you have a, you have a path that you can make that case, then you pursue it. Otherwise just drop out. I think the same is true for this before you even build that mvp. I don't think it's good to talk to people, but in general, just your analysis of what you see in the market, I think you need to be able to say, we are going to go to market in this way. This is who we're going to sell to. And this is the hypothesis that, like, I think that, like, there's a chance that this could be true and then we go build it. But like. But if I. The sass thing, like, I kind of have trouble painting that path. Like, there, there's a little, there's a few too many, like, roadblocks to say, like, there's a high likelihood of this path working in my view. Yeah. [00:33:07] Speaker B: Like, do you want an adjacent market that you can get to or does that like, defeat the purpose of staying focused? Yeah, I hear you. All I know is that in the current hype cycle of this idea, I like it. And I've now started to get feedback from both sides, the pro and the con. And I feel like I'm getting closer to a more sober analysis. Yes, we'll see. [00:33:32] Speaker A: Yeah. It's so hard. It's, it's like fun and exciting and fucking hard at the same time. [00:33:38] Speaker B: I am having fun. [00:33:41] Speaker A: It's. [00:33:41] Speaker B: It is a not. I don't want to discount the feeling I had walking around the last few days with this little tingly buzz of, oh, we can do this. Oh, I like this. Oh, I like talking to these people. I'm one of these people. These are. This is my realm. I can add value. I think I can see, you know, like that. And I talked to rock, I talked to Jess and they're all feeling the same thing. I don't think that can be taken lightly. [00:34:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And again, it comes down to like, different needs for each person. Like, like me at some point I'm gonna, I'm gonna build some new products at some point. I don't know when, but like, I definitely intend to grow my portfolio at some point. And I'm sure I'm gonna do products that are probably targeted at SaaS, but like. But probably those products if and when I do them, I dont need them to be huge companies. They can just be things in my portfolio that some people. All I need it to do is x number of customers and Im happy. And its a good thing for my little portfolio. But in your case, youre in a very different situation. Theres all these different considerations that go into it. Is this a product that we can win in the way that we want to win? True. [00:34:54] Speaker B: Yo, speaking of talking, I got a call. I'm a minute late to my next conversation. [00:35:01] Speaker A: Yeah, take, take what they tell you with a grain of salt. [00:35:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. Yo, have a great time in Florida. [00:35:07] Speaker A: It's gonna be a good time. All right. I'm glad we, I'm glad we fit this one in. [00:35:12] Speaker B: Cool. [00:35:13] Speaker A: See everyone. All right. Later, folks.

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