Bootstrapped Web

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Bootstrap Web. This is anything but election talk episode. Brian, how are you?

Doing good. Just trying to, you know, keep my sanity over here, but we're we're we're making it through. It's it's Friday. We you know, for for all of you listening, you probably know what's happening in the world. Right now, we don't know what's happening

in the world.

So yeah.

Yes. Well, city of Portland is taking it very well, so that that's nice that things are going swimmingly.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, what's happening in on the business front?

Cardhook logo in the Shopify app store is real. We are

What can you

tell So what I can tell you is the analogy imperfect as it may be that I used with the company is the Mike Tyson analogy. Everyone's got a plan punch in the face. Yep. We got punched in the face and we were in it. We're in the fight now.

It's fun. And it's high stakes and it's high pressure. And I have a lot of concerns around the team like morale and energy just because it's it was a real sprint to get it done. And it's not like now that it's out, we get to rest. Now we're like fully in it.

And everything matters and reviews are scary and competition feels like more ramped up. So it's it's it's go time.

Let's unpack this a little bit. So what it was Monday, right? Monday or Tuesday it it went live?

It went live on Monday and that part that part was fun. Right? So

Like I wanna know like what what was day one like? What was the the very first impression? Was it like yeah. What?

It was it was a lot of coordination right on, behind the scenes on our side because we launched multiple things at the same time. So, you know, I think I've spoken before about how I look at what's happening inside the company as like, where is the fire burning hottest? At any point in time, it's not like everything's on fire, everything requires attention. There's usually one part of the company that there's more going on, whether that's sales or engineering or product. Right?

There's like a where's the focus? Where's all a lot of the energy being taken up? And it moved around over the past few months where it was purely on engineering and product for a while because it was okay, we have about sixty days to build this product from scratch. And that that was very intense. That was product and UX and UI design and then working with engineering to get it done.

And then it started to shift as the product started to go toward QA and testing and buttoning things up and making sure things are okay. The energy went toward marketing and it went toward well, think about all the assets we need. So we launched a completely new website because it didn't make sense to try to keep the old website and like tweak around the edges. We just said, look, let's do it already. And then one of our strategic ways to invest over this was in brand.

If the product isn't able to differentiate itself very much because the API on Shopify side is so new, the features literally are limited. You can't do that much, you can't do WYSIWYG, you can't make them the edits on the design. And so if we assume that the feature sets can be pretty similar among competitors, then we decided to overinvest in branding. Because if people are going to make a decision based on, okay, here are my four options, who should I choose? We want people to identify with us at the higher end.

So we overinvested in now, we get this beautiful new website and then we also needed to launch an app store listing page. So there's just a ton of copy and imagery and visuals and decisions and micro decisions and pricing decisions and all these things all at the same time.

You know, you got all that stuff ready for Monday. So we were talking about last week was all the unknowns of like the competition, where, where's your pricing going to land? What's going to be the, what does the traffic and usage look like on day one? What did that look like the moment it went live? What were your very first reactions or impressions?

Yes. So we were actually ready to launch the week prior. That was the originally scheduled date. And then Shopify pushed it back by a week. At first I was upset.

I was like, look, we just killed ourselves to get ready. And now maybe some of our competitors aren't ready and we're pushing it back. But that was the whole point of rushing. It ended up being good to have that extra week of QA and buttoning things up and the website and everything else. So got everything set for the Friday, made the switch on the website on Saturday so that it wasn't like a Monday morning DNS thing to just remove that.

We hit the pricing page. So then Monday it goes live. And the way it went live was Shopify's announcement. So the Shopify Twitter account puts out this article in this blog post about these new things you can do with the checkout. Then Toby, the CEO retweets it and then we get tagged along with the other partners and then all of a sudden it's a frenzy of all the partners talking about and everyone talking about all the audiences, all that

They do an email blast?

An email blast is coming up this Saturday actually.

Oh, okay.

So they held off on that and that's kind of you know

It's kind like wave one and then there'll be like wave Yes.

So this weekend is like that smile and sweaty emoji. Like that's like, oh, cool. You're gonna send an email to a million merchants. Okay. Let's let's see how that goes.

So thing goes out Monday. It's euphoria. It's so exciting. Everyone's freaking out a million likes and Toby and Harley are liking my tweet and all that stuff. So it's a lot of excitement.

The signups are great. Hundreds of signups. Awesome. Usage. Okay, but then the support channel just woo, you know, channel lights up and there's just a lot

to I was curious about that because you were talking about the preparation week before, months before with the marketing and the product. Like what kind of preparation goes into the customer support? Cause I feel like it's got to be a totally different, it's obviously a different product to support. Like how do you get them all trained up on it?

So we signed up for Intercom about a month ago and started work on support docs. So while the marketing team is doing the website and the app listing page, the support team and success team are writing out support docs and setting up intercom and chatbots and segmentation and all that stuff. And so on

And like, understanding how to support Shopify users specifically, you know.

And what ended up being the most complex was actually CartHook users because people know CartHook as one thing and then we just gave them something very, very different. It's not like, now CartHook that we know now works with Shopify. That's not it at all. It is completely different, totally different limitations. And the limitations are severe enough because this is this is a beta for Shopify.

This is not full fledged. A ton of the support is around, well, used to be able to do this. How do I do that in in this? And us being like, this this is not at all.

I was wondering about the customers who were I know they were like grandfathered in for a while, but like with this switch, this this covers everyone, even the longtime customers.

The Shopify's hope and intention is to build up toward feature parity with their checkout so that people can leave all of the third party checkouts and go on to theirs. That's what they want. They want the GMV to go through them. Okay. We are pretty far from that right now.

And that is totally understandable. And at the same time, the expectations around the Shopify market, what people want is so strong that that's what made this week tough for us. So ton of signups, decent amount of activation. We found three issues that have to be addressed immediately. That's kind of where the priorities shifted.

Like we have a long list of features and requests and stuff that's for the future. But we very quickly determined, oh, we have a list of three priorities that must be tackled. First, a database issue. The way we were syncing products was wrong, had to do that. Engineering team did.

I mean, crazy. Was an enormous amount of hours that they just didn't really get to sleep for a few days. And then that got fixed. Next one is we made a UX decision that is unexpected and needs to be addressed. So that'll be changed by the middle of next week.

And then after that, slightly less important is around styling around people wanting the template and the default template to look a little different. But when you think about it, like the database was no question, has to be done no matter what otherwise things are going to jam up. So before they jam up, let's fix that. The UX thing is bad enough or severe enough, whatever you want to call it. What I told the team is that has to get done within the first fourteen days because we have to show these hundreds of people that just started a fourteen day trial that we can be responsive enough to something like that within the first fourteen days or they're going walk away and then never going to give us a chance again.

What we wanted happened. A lot of people signed up, But what we the other thing we wanted was for things to chill out after launching and that's that's just not happening yet.

Yep. What's the deal with like reviews? Like have you seen any like initial reviews come in?

Yeah. Right now it's just five star reviews. So we have a handful of just five star reviews which is great. But you look over at the competitors and they have a mixture and you know your time is coming. You're going to get blasted on a one star review and if it's just like I couldn't get it to work and it doesn't work in Italian and I'm mad at you.

Like that's easy. But if it's valid criticism, then that we're just preparing for that. It's it's like much more public than we're used to. So it's new but we have to get used

to it. Crazy man.

Yeah. Exciting. Overall it's good and it's exciting and I'm trying to take the emotion out of it and I'm trying as much as I can to show the team that this isn't an emotional sprint. This is a professional marathon. We're going to settle in, we're going to through the holidays.

There's one really big blocker for a ton of merchants that if they have customized their Shopify checkout at all, if they have touched the checkout, it won't work with any post purchase offers ourselves and anyone else. And so there's an enormous amount of support happening right now. People coming in saying, Hey, I signed up. This looks amazing but it's not working. Can you tell me why?

And then the response is, Well, it looks like you've changed a color on your checkout and therefore it won't work. You can either go back to the default checkout or come back to us in January, February when Shopify does the checkout upgrade and then it's disappointment. So it's basically just gonna be like that for like ninety days.

So it's just

is what it is.

That is tough.

Yeah. Yeah. A cool experience. I love our website. It's like the first thing.

Dude, I'm looking at it right now. It's it's pretty slick.

It's the first thing, not the first thing. It's just the thing I'm most proud of that we have ever published on the internet. Yeah, it's really We've never really been able to invest in design. We found this amazing person, Kyle, who runs a company called Brass Hands here in Oregon actually in Bend. And he just, he just, he said, if we're going to redo the site, do you mind if I like get at the brand?

And I was like, hell yes, go for it. And that's what he came up with and it's, I love it.

Nice. I mean, you know, I I design all my sites, all all the marketing sites, and I love how you have all this animation, like movement in and out as you scroll in and out of the page. And that's something that I've always it's like a detail that I've always wanted to have on my sites, but that's one of the limitations of being like the designer slash founder. It's like, I design it and I write the copy and I'm like, alright, that's good enough to launch. I never allow myself the extra time and bandwidth to like do the fanciness.

And that's what you get when you go to an agency, right?

Yes. And the animations elevate it and that's what we needed. We need the merchant who is doing $50,000,000 a year to look at our site and look at our competitor site and very clearly know which one is right for them. That's that's the goal of of that investment. Oh yes.

Alright man. How about you? What's going on?

Well I like last week I I talked about how I shipped the visual update in ProcessKit and I was really nervous about that one, like I said, because anytime you're talking about visual user experience updates, especially if it affects the entire app, which this did, you get nervous. People don't like change. Even if it's better change, they still don't like it. Now it's been over a full week since that launch, and I've actually only heard positive reviews from some of the changes.

No, no people upset of, but I used to do it this way, now I can't No. Find Okay, nice.

No, and I mean it wasn't drastic too, like things haven't moved around from where they were, it's just styling and a little bit of user experience tweaks. And like I said, added like the search box and everything, so that helps. And added this new home dashboard, which like I said with search, two years in we didn't have any search functionality and now we do. The other thing that we didn't have for two years is any sort of home dashboard screen.

Dashboards are for getting a big picture view or analysis.

Is Yeah, when you log in, where's the first place that you should land? You know, because we have, different elements of the app. There's your processes, there's your boards, you've got some projects, you can look at people's profiles and stuff. So up until last week, you land on boards. I could have had them land on processes, I just chose boards because that's where your projects live.

And I've had a few comments well, one thing that I noticed, and again this is about trying to attack the first time user, get them onboarded quicker. And I did not fully get into the onboarding stuff. That's coming up in the future months. But like, this is one thing where it's like, if you land onto boards, it's easy for you to navigate into some rabbit holes from there that make you miss some of the bigger picture stuff in other parts of the app. Landing on boards is good if you're like an everyday user and you've been on for months, but if you're a first time user it's like, wait, what?

But a lot of my long time users have commented, they're like, I love the new dashboard. It's got some, some stuff going on in there. So they're like, oh, that's so much more helpful. And to me as a user of, of SAS products, I almost, I never get any use out of a dashboard view. Like I never even touch it.

I, you know, that, that's why I didn't, I didn't like build it into the app because it like, like I use like customer IO a lot for my email marketing, right? They have a dashboard. It actually looks a lot like mine in, in process kit. I never ever look at any of the information on that dashboard. I just log in and then I go to the emails or whatever I'm looking at, you know?

Okay. Okay. Like WordPress, you think of like the homepage, your dashboard in WordPress?

Pointless. Pointless. Pointless. I never touch it.

So I never wanted to build it,

know? Mhmm. It's good to wait until there is reason to build it. But yeah, dashboards are interesting because they they make for pretty, static images. Right?

If you have the graphs and all that. But if you don't put useful info in there, they're really useless and everyone interacts with them constantly. I sometimes think of them as like my ROI page. Like what am I paying for? Like the first thing you see is what am I what am I paying for?

Jason Lemkin, I think Jason Lemkin has an interesting post on dashboards and how they become more useful the larger the organization that's working there because then the dashboards for management. Well that's thing. Okay.

One of the you know, as I'm I'm really trying to I'm constantly trying to understand what is the the core value proposition that I'm really selling to to my customers and once you get past all the process and the automation stuff that you can do with it, at the end of the day, the person making the buying decision, they're not the person checking off the tasks. They're the person managing and they're the person who wants to have that visibility into what's going on. And those are the people who've been commenting like, oh, I love the dashboard because it's showing me like the latest activity. You know?

I think there is reason to pause on on that sense right there. Like for people listening and for yourself as a reminder, like the audience you're selling to is not using the features of the app. Like that, Understanding that and being okay with that is important because then when you market and when you sell, you start to go toward the benefit much more naturally. Instead of looking at a little, what's the benefit and what's the feature? No, now if you actually know who you're talking to.

Yeah and I noticed this a lot in my sales calls like I get the question a lot like, okay, so how can I see like a high level view of where things are at Or how can I see what this person has on their plate this week? Like, I actually spend a lot of time in the sales demos covering things like that which are not the fancy automation functionality. We get into that a little bit but it's more about like, here's your visibility so that you could feel secure and less anxious that things are falling through the cracks. Right?

At a glance, you look at your dashboard, you look at these analytics, you see your team of 20 people scattered around eight different projects and you see things getting Yeah.

That's what makes the sell actually really difficult is that it's it's it's on so many different levels. I where who did I hear this from?

It's tricky.

Somebody was talking about it recently on a podcast, I forgot who it was, but there are so many sales that you need to win in order to win the customer. Right? Because like, because first you gotta sell them on on like, what can I build with this tool in my business? What what will it accomplish for my business? Then like selling the selling your your project manager.

Like, usually I'm talking to the founder, but then they have a project manager who then manages the team. So you gotta sell that person. Then they have to sell their team of 10 or 15 people on, oh, this is actually going to be a good tool to use day to day for my tasks. Then you got to sell the customers if it's customer facing. All you have to win on all those things before it makes sense for them to give the credit card.

Yeah. That's that's pretty tough. I it makes me think of HubSpot, in our sales process with them. And it makes me think we just did we just did it through with intercom also. It's like a bottoms up then back down.

It's like the team is like, we think we want to use intercom and here's why. And I say, okay, cool. Well, what about x y z? Like my questions that are very different from their questions. And then I give them the thumbs up on the price.

Okay, dollars 1,600 a month. And then they and then it goes back down and they go then they make sure that they can use it for everything they need. They talk to the team there, they make sure that it'll work with, you know, a frame inside the Shopify admin, all those like feature level questions. And then it goes through. It's also why you see a lot of terrible software.

I don't want to call Zendesk terrible software because I really don't know, but they have a tricky reputation that they do a phenomenal job selling at the top, convincing the management level that this is what the organization needs. And then everyone who has to run that on a day to day basis and work with it isn't happy. And and they've unbelievably successful with that approach.

You know, I I get customer support requests and often it's because the buyer is coming to me because their team is complaining to them about some issue in process kit. That to me like just burns on a personal level, you know? Because like, like I would hate to piss my team off. Mhmm. You know, I take it on myself, but it's it's process kit, the the product and everything.

I hate for that to be responsible for causing frustration in somebody else's team environment, you know?

Yes. Yes. Does that lead you into thinking deeper about which way you actually want to be selling? If it's from bottoms up and people discovering and saying, this will make my day to day job easier or going to the top and saying, This will make your organization along a lot nicer?

Well, ultimately every sale has basically been from the top to bottom. It's not like I get a lot of leads or customers of in the trenches engineer or technician person who says, This is really cool. I should recommend this to my boss. It almost never works that way. Actually, Audience Ops sometimes works that way.

Like people

on a team, they heard of Audience Ops and then they recommend it to their boss and they end up signing up. Process Kit isn't like that. Process Kit is more like the founder or a manager at the company heard about Process Kit so then they start to think about what are the possibilities, what can I do better with Process Kit? And then it's really common for them to pull in so if I'm talking to a founder, they will bring their project manager onto the demo call.

Because that person's more aware of the day to day needs.

Because they know like because the founder's like, look I'm intrigued by this but we're not gonna do this unless my project manager's also on board with it.

Are you are you elevating that dashboard view and that perspective in in the marketing and on the website?

Not yet. I lost it last week. Yeah. But it's always playing playing catch up. Well, there, is an element on the, on the page, on the homepage about like visibility and that sort of stuff.

Like, you know, seeing stuff from a high level. But the other thing that I shipped this week gets away from that high level stuff and gets back into the look at this cool stuff that you can do with ProcessKit and that is email templates. And this is one of those things where we start to differentiate from a typical project management tool. What kind of emails are you sending? Templating emails.

So you've got a process, let's say it's a customer onboarding process and the fifth step in this process is you have to send an email to your client that gives them an update on the progress. That email, it always follows the same template and you just swap in the customer's name or maybe you swap in a special link to the thing that you're delivering every month or whatever. You're delivering a monthly report to a client. We deliver articles to a client every week for Audience Ops. That follows a template email.

It looks exactly the same every time except we swap in the link to the article or whatever. In ProcessKit, you can now, in a step in a process, you could build an email. Build an email template. You say, Who is it going to? What's the subject going to be?

Here's the message. We also now have liquid tags, you can dynamically fill in the recipient's email, dynamically do the subject, dynamically throw stuff into the message, then your team who's going through it, they can either manually click send on that email when they get up to that step, maybe add in a personalized note if they want to, or you can automate it. When this step gets checked off, the email sends off automatically.

So the value there is in the linking between the process and the email and just the workflow being in that place as opposed to, okay, this part of the process I need to go off to my email.

Because a really common workflow is a team is following their processes, maybe they've documented it in a process kit or in Google Docs or something, they get up to the step where, Okay, time to send off the template email, now I've got to copy and paste our template email and manually fill in these variables and do this and that. Now it's a built in part of the process. Being able to create template emails and send them off as part of a process that you can execute repeatedly following your template, Like that's the kind of thing that it's it's not even in the roadmap on on like an Asana or or or a Basecamp or or a Trello, know. It's it's it's too niche of a need. But client services, which is my target audience, they do that kind of stuff all the time, you know?

Are you worried about that complexity? Because e emails its own monster.

So I was a little bit worried about it. Not super worried because it's not like we're limiting, like you can't send to more than five recipients in an email, So you can't use this for mass emailing. It's for one off things and also not, you wouldn't receive emails back.

It's going out from your email address actually. At least the reply to is coming

Yeah, back the reply to would go into your Help Scout or your Gmail, whatever you're using. Yeah, I'm not super worried about it, I did go above and beyond on displaying to the user, look, this email has the automation turned on, it's going to send when this happens. Just be totally clear about that.

No double opt in confirmation modal thing ahead of time?

Well, part of it is, part of the benefit is to automate it, but you have the option to it's it's not automated by default. It's it's off by default and then you have the option to just manually send these emails off or or not, you know?

Alright. That's a lot of progress on the on the product front. Yep. And positioning. It's difficult, man.

Which part?

All of it? All It's of it's balancing. Derek Rimer had a great tweet yesterday and he nailed it. Product development is I'm paraphrasing here. Product development is like the art of disappointing your customers in a way that they will accept.

It's like the art of disappointing your customers in the most acceptable way. Sure. That sucks. Because it's constantly like, I'm getting these feature requests. I've got a long list of them and it's trying to figure out what do I build next.

Then you mix into that, you've got brand new trial users who are on their way to converting and they've got bug reports and they've got things that they're trying to do. It's like, oh, I could ship that and probably convert this customer. It's

Software's hard. It's just really the expectations around it these days are very very high and it's very very difficult to do. It's just there's just no way around it. I I find myself like chuckling at how I used to think about software and how and someone came back to me and was like that the earliest we can do that is by end of next week. I would have thought well, how could anything take nine days that feels so small?

But that's just not, that's not how it works. It does force, it puts a lot of pressure on what's next and prioritization. And I find myself admiring product people like we have a new product person in the company, Chelsea, she jumped on board for the Shopify app. So she she joined like seventy five days ago. So what she got thrown into is so crazy and the ability to stay organized under that pressure.

It's just I just can't do that. I just admire it because you really and what ends up happening is the team wants that so much that the product people, they just turn into leaders because everyone just looking to them like, please give me a sense of calm. My plate feels so chaotic. If I look throughout the entire company that feels so overwhelming and the product person's like, I got this. We have a process for this.

This is what happens next. Nice and slow. No rush. Yeah. And so that's the only way it works.

And that and I'm basically that role. I'm I'm the product person, like the product manager essentially. Part of it is like, oh, alright what this customer is asking for, it's so small that I know I could code that and ship it this week so I don't want to disturb my developer who's making progress on something else that's bigger. So I'll tackle it. And then there's five of those in a week.

And then it's like, oh, I totally put off that marketing thing I

was supposed to

do. And I'm starting to feel the thing where this is where it would really feel a lot better if I had like three developers instead of one other than me. Because we're also running into performance issues as the user base grows and users individually using it even more. There's issues that have to deal with which is not just throwing more money at it, although I am doing that. So that's what really bugs me is when I have to put my developer on half of his week just dealing with optimizing memory leaks when I would love to have one developer on that kind of stuff, one developer on the small feature requests and bug fixes and then one just pushing on the new features.

The business is not at a point I think where it justifies that, instead I'm spending on marketing right now and growing that team But

what you're describing, how to properly use limited resources is really the whole point, the whole challenge

The of result of that gets back to what Derek is saying on Twitter, is you have to just be willing to tell customers that's coming much later.

Derek's one of those people though that makes you think that they can defy the laws of gravity. Like I don't I don't understand. How are you moving this quickly? I don't A lot of it is, he's also gotten good at sharing publicly the parts that make sense to share publicly. And so it does have a sense of momentum and this constant sense of progress, which is something I know we have not done a good job at.

It's great to see that and want to emulate it. Just the filter of what should be shared, what gets people excited, what should be open for debate and what shouldn't.

Yeah. Yeah. I try to share a lot too and it's hard. Derek does a really great job of it. For anyone who follows somebody who does that on Twitter, like when you see the animated GIF and you see a two minute video, it's really hard to prepare those and push them out.

Know, because like, first of all, like you said, like it has to be a feature that is so concise that you could actually share and it makes sense to consume at a glance like on a tweet.

Yeah, no context.

Because there's a ton of stuff that we ship every week and process it. Most 90% of it doesn't make sense for me to tweet about. But then it's like the preparation, usually when I ship a feature, like the email templates feature, I'll probably do this next week, what I'm talking about here, which is I'll make a longer video that I'll use for support, probably five or six minutes long and that'll go in our support docs. But Twitter, you have a two minute limit and five minutes is too long for

Yeah, that no,

So I usually take that same video and cut out all the cruft and just the just the key highlights make it into the two minute version that I that I throw into the tweet, know. And that's a that's like a half a day of just preparing that, just doing the editing, know.

Right. Right. But it is it is marketing. It's not just frivolous like for yourself, right? It's not just that it's it's there's more.

And building in public these days, especially on Twitter, that's pretty pretty interesting. There's a few companies two that I think of where I'm like, you know what, if I were you, I would not build this in public. So there's Pipe. You heard of that company? Yep.

So they're building like a new asset class. Right? I talked to them about it. It didn't make sense for us, but it's a it's it's brilliant actually. And the positioning is great on it.

It takes your MRR and and they basically pay you. Well, think about what we do. We offer a subscription. I'm I'm talking we like everyone in software. A $100 a month.

Right? So it's $1,200 for the year. But if sign you up now and you give me a thousand bucks in cash up for now, I'll give it to you for a thousand bucks. Right? You know, it's not a 20% discount, but a discount.

So what PIPE basically does is say, we'll give you 1,100 for that right now and then we'll collect the money over time. And if someone cancels, we'll basically just move it over to someone else. So you don't have to like pay us in the middle. So it's like a taking a smaller discount than you would normally offer to a customer and getting that money upfront and turning your monthly subscriptions into annual payouts. Brilliant.

It's so brilliant. Everyone's gonna copy it. I don't think I would be I would be doing it in public. There's another one called Main Street. It's even worse.

Getting back to that thing like like like our ideas, you know, everyone loves to say like, ideas are a dime a dozen. Just don't don't be so, don't don't work in stealth mode. Don't do this and that. But like there are some that are first of all, SaaS is super competitive now. And second of all, like you said, like somebody like like Derek and any other developers out there who who know their way around the tools, there are so many tools and frameworks now that speed up especially early MVP development.

Yeah, feels Feels more dangerous more dangerous. I mean, things like bullet train on rails and jumpstart rails and that's just in the rails community. Every framework has their Laravel has got all their stuff. And then like Laravel Spark and then you've got other tools that just speed up every common component. It's so much faster to build now.

It does feel more dangerous right now. There's a company called Main Street and the founder, I think he's too boisterous. I think he's having a great time and the company's taken off like an absolute rocket ship and he's talking about it and I would not be talking about it. You know, all they do, I don't know trivialize it, but what they do is they apply for the R and D credit. A lot of companies, especially ones with without a professional like, you know, account that understands startups are not applying for an R and D credit.

And when you build software, you can claim an R and D credit and get a potentially large refund back. So they just go through that process for you and then take a portion of the refund, which sounds familiar to me because that's what we used to do for the property tax reduction business with family. This is this is not a hard business to copy. These guys went to like 250 ks in MRR in like sixty days. If I'm not working on a startup right now, like I'm I'm cloning that thing and I'm putting salespeople on the phone.

There's there's there is you don't really need that much software behind it. Yes. You want to build a software like they have to make it automated, blah, blah, blah. But you can offer that service anytime. So going to Twitter on that, I don't think it's a good idea.

The opposite is, you know, Jack Butcher, visualize value. Have you started following him? I don't think so. You should. He I think he's the latest example of building in public really well and just toeing the line between this is me bragging about how much money I'm making and this is how little money I made last year compared to this year because this is what I did over that year.

This is how I stuck with it. And this is how I found my positioning. And here's my course that shows you how to find your own thing. It's kind of beautifully lined up between things that are free, things that are lower priced and things that are higher priced. Interesting.

It's called visualize value. And it's him and his wife, I think it's a husband wife team. He's a designer. She runs the business. It's kind of one of these public building things that you can help but want them to succeed and want to support them.

A great, great example. Very cool. That's it, man. We're just going to avoid the election talk. Besides that, I think I think we're good.

I think we did a good job of that. Yes. I'm going to go back to refreshing the New York Times and see who see who won this thing.

Oh, I don't know what to tell you. I'm ready for it to just be done. Yep. Yep. Alright, man.

Great to catch up. Thanks for listening, everybody. Have a good weekend.

Later.