Bootstrapped Web

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Bootstrap Web. This is Jordan. Brian, last one of the year.

Yes, here we are. It's a December. Yeah, we're wrapping up 2020 finally.

Cue the we made it out jokes. No, we still haven't, we still have another two weeks or so, but we're getting it.

Yep. Yep. Yep.

What's on your mind as the year comes to an end?

Well, I will start with the fact that I just a few days ago decided I need a break, like, big time. Honestly, don't know how successful I'm gonna be at taking a break. I'm not I'm usually not very good at it, but I I do need one. My goal is to, starting basically now or going into this weekend, Monday, until January 1. I've already blocked off my calendar.

There are no calls. I had some sales calls. I pushed them to January. I don't care. Like, I need to step away, you know?

Okay. What what do you need to step away from? Is it the the worry, the stress, the

And and I mean, usually I have a vacation to to step away from things and this time I'm home. So so the goal is to just hang out for two weeks.

And just not let the fact that you're home and not on vacation in a hotel stop you from actually getting the break.

Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, like the parameters of this are not allowed to work on process kit because that's been my primary work, you know, work project. So whatever I'm I've been working on process kit, I'm not working on that. My developer is still working and and my marketer is still working, so so I will have my email inbox.

I'm not cutting off from email or anything and if they need me to approve stuff, I will approve stuff, but I'm not pushing any balls forward myself for the next two weeks. Same thing at audience ops. Normally the only thing I ever do there is a couple sales calls. I've blocked those off. They're not happening until January.

And there is the nice thing that January 1 is a Friday so it's really January 4. So it's an opportunity to really get a full two weeks. I went in thinking the same thing. I do have a few calls on Monday and Tuesday that I can't avoid, but I think that's it. Our office is closed virtually, but we have support people who are checking in because we have to.

But I hear you. I want a break. I want a big deep breath because January feels like it's gonna ramp up on the intensity immediately.

Yeah, you know, and I think the question of burnout, you know, people talk about that a lot and, and I don't really know what, what burnout is or what it feels like. I feel like I've started to feel that a little bit in the last few weeks and maybe, maybe not admitting it. I don't work crazy hours. It's not like I work eighty hour weeks or anything like that. But my mind, feel like mentally I do work that that much, know, and I feel like mentally I need a break from from it all.

That's it is more of a break, mentally than it is from the work because I I'm with you. I don't do that many hours of intense like work and writing and that sort of thing. But it is the constant thinking and worrying. And I am fully, fully in the habit of pushing things off. I have two lists.

I have the top of my yellow pad and the bottom. And the bottom one that says tonight. And as things go through the day, I just take the to do item from the top and I write it down in tonight. And I just move things over in tonight. Then I get in front of the couch and I go another hour or two of email while watching TV.

And that constantness like going to sleep thinking about work and then waking up thinking about work and thinking about it all day and taking a break for dinner and trying to detach from it at dinner and focus on the family and then dive right back into it. There is, is a bit of exhaustion mentally from that just every day all over and over and over. I am mostly successful on the weekends of just completely not doing anything.

Yeah. I was going to say that I'm, I'm also pretty successful on the weekends too. Like a Saturday and Sunday occasionally, like if, if we're on a bit of a downtime in the middle of the day, we've already done our family thing for most of the day. Now the kids are relaxing, I'll steal an hour or two and work on some code. Generally like Sunday morning, there are plenty of Sundays where I'm just like, I don't care, I'm hanging out, we're watching Disney movies with the kids.

They can all wait.

And, and like, I'm cool with doing nothing productive today. Like I, like that's nice on the weekends. I actually want to see what that's like if I just commit to two weeks of those days, you know?

Yeah. It sounds great. I'm gonna try.

But obviously there's gonna be plenty of business thinking. I think I might hack on a little shiny object idea, but it's not my main focus. It's not, it's not process kit. It's not audience ops. And there's also some room for learning too.

Like that's the other thing I've been thinking about a lot about lately is like, I don't ever make time to just learn things. Especially on software development, but even like on music, you know, occasionally I make time to, to hack around with the guitar, but like it's been years since I, since I actually learned any, any new music theory or like lessons. That seems interesting. You know, there's a couple of software, like tech stuff that I really want to get up to speed on to kind of like up my skills because all of my coding skills, I only improve them by building things in only in process kit. And there's definitely a ceiling to how productive that is from a learning perspective, you know?

The shiny object type project is healthier because it doesn't have all the attachments into the real world of real people on the other end. And you know, if someone's paying you money and they complain, you have to you have to pay attention to it. I think that's good. I hope you do well with it.

And when I think about the burnout question, to me, I think what's mentally exhausting at this point in the year is I constantly feel like I'm behind. I'm behind schedule. I'm like every single day and it's not my to dos, it's like progress on the business. It's MRR, you know. I wanted MRR to be a lot higher than it is by now.

That's the constant mental weight that I have and what and the result of thinking that is like, alright, well I've I've gotta ship this feature this week because I've gotta move the business forward. I've gotta do I've gotta get this marketing thing out by the end of the month because because I'm behind on MRR and it's only because I'm not shipping fast enough. And that's the constant churn that has just been building for this year and that's what I'm exhausted from. And so I think mentally by, by just accepting the fact that like I am blocking off the calendar, I don't care. Like, like it's like acknowledging, like I know the last two weeks of December are not for shipping stuff.

So I'm okay with that. I'm accepting that. January is when we get back to work. For now it's just get some space.

I think everybody listening can identify with that frustration on both the micro and macro level, right? The micro is I want MRR to be further along. I wanted this feature to get done and it's not and the gap between your expectations and where you really are is frustrating. And then at the macro level, it gets dangerous where you really think, where should I be in my life? Where should I be in my savings?

Where should I be like the house I live in and compared to what I expected? And I had such a hard time with that for a really long time. It's only the past few years I've kind of chilled out on it. Now I'm a little bit more zen toward it on both levels where some, at least from the outside, some people try to give off like this constant hustle. I am always pushing and we're always crushing it thing.

And that's just exhausting to like look at and compare yourself to. I've gone into this place where there's a natural cadence to a business and to your life where it feels very much like when I'm super focused on pushing things forward, it doesn't actually go any better or faster than if I just kind of let it happen the way it's supposed to happen. So what is the point? And now, yes, I can admit that maybe I'm having more success in that mindset over the past two years since MRR kind of really grew but it's still true. I could be the exact same way mentally as two years ago and still thinking, Oh, we're so far behind.

This is where we should be. We only grew by X amount because you know, you always compare yourself to the people and this is the full spectrum. There's the full spectrum. There's always someone growing faster, bigger, crazier, more impressive, whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. The, like our lifestyle and our house here, I feel like we're really comfortable and I've been happy with that the last couple of years.

It's a good calming force.

Yeah. This is the time of year when I think about those big picture stuff like the transition that I made from restaurant engine to audience ops and going back further, the transition from freelancing to building restaurant engine and escaping freelancing. This one is I feel like it's the hardest of transitioning from audience ops to SaaS. It's been several years now. Even before, before process kit, was doing ops calendar, you know, and that didn't, I didn't achieve that.

So, and it's also a little bit mentally jarring having built audience ops because that transition was really fast. Like it went much faster than I than I expected. You know, it's like, man, once you you get one win under your belt, does not guarantee the the next ones are gonna be as easy.

I hear that regularly. I just read a tweet thread from Travis Jamieson who ran, AMZ Tracker, I think it was. It was like an SEO tool for Amazon. And he sold it a few years ago and then he wrote a thread just around how much better he would have done if he hadn't sold it. And I look at at the time it made sense to sell, so he did.

But he's just like looking at the market since selling it and what it could have done. He clearly would have done better keeping it. His whole conclusion was if you find, if you get lightning in a bottle, just do not let go because it's not an easy thing. It doesn't matter if you're great. It's not just you.

It has all these other factors and luck and timing and market and competition, other things and trends. And so it could be the same awesome you, but a few things are different and you're not going to hit on lightning in a bottle again. I definitely get worried about that.

Yeah. Yeah. But you know, I think that taking a break, it's relaxing, but it's also like, it's the time to rethink everything. Usually I get that, that sort of space by going to big snow tiny comp and by taking personal retreats. I might actually try to sneak up to a mountain, get some ski days in, hopefully, depending on the travel stuff.

This is the time of year, like every year, really every December, is the time of year that I like to rethink, maybe take a personal retreat. The last few Decembers I've I've spent, you know, working on a shiny object idea as like a refreshing creative project. So, yeah. I think that's where I'm at right now. What about you?

Oh, I've done a few podcasts recently that I I was happy with. Two podcasts that I didn't just jump on, I like prepared for and like thought about and wrote notes and what like one of those. So I did I did Greylock, which is a VC firm. And Mike Dubow and I've gotten to know each other by coincidence, he actually went to Michigan. He's actually in the same fraternity as my younger brother, which is funny.

So he hosted myself and Steve, the founder at builder.io. And builder is a headless front end solution for ecommerce. And you know, Cardo in many ways is like a headless checkout. So we talked about headless ecommerce. And I was one of those like, I want to impress people who hear this, know.

So I really thought about it. And then the other podcast I did was better finished than perfect, better done than perfect.

Jane Portman's new thing. Yeah.

Jane Portman's new thing. Yes. And she asked me to talk about the the process of going from free trials to demos around Cardhook. So I like really thought about it. We talked about it in-depth for a long, a long period of time.

To folks listening, I recommend that podcast. I liked the new thing that Jane's putting together there. I listened to her interview with Rand Fishkin a couple of weeks ago. I thought that was really good, know, and and like I haven't listened to an interview with him in a while and and I feel like there's some really interesting insight with Spark Toro and stuff.

Yeah. He's so thoughtful and everything he learned chairs. It's it's it's really valuable to listen to him. He has a you know, unique perspective of the crazy set of experiences. I'm considering doing a mixergy interview.

Yeah, you mentioned it.

It's been five years. I feel like it might be a good kind of bookend from one

Hell yeah, man.

End of the cardiac experience to know

Well, not do it? Why not do it?

I feel like it's not done. You know, I feel like the journey's not done. So that's the only reason.

Mhmm. Yep. All right.

And that's it. And similar to you, I am looking back at 2020 and trying to be critical where it helps and, you know, pat myself on the back where that helps and just look at the team. It really was an intense year for everybody. Our company, everyone listening personally, professionally, it was a crazy year. And certainly easy to feel grateful that we work online.

And we have just had it a lot easier than other people and transitioning to work from home. Hasn't impacted our income the same way that a lot of other people have had it. So it's definitely very easy to feel gratitude looking back at this year. The unexpected thing, you know, we have this this cool situation here in Portland right now where my father-in-law bought a house down the block, literally one block away. And then my sister-in-law and her husband and their two kids who have been in Brooklyn on their own said, well, if you have a house a block away, we'll just come live there and work remotely there.

So they've been here for a few months.

Oh, that's great.

So now all a sudden we have like this crazy situation and my wife and her sister are extremely close. Her husband and I are extremely close. Then all the cousins are together. And in some weird way, we're looking at this like this might be one of the best years of our lives looking back, which is such a strange and unexpected thing. Now the vaccines there, that's like there's some hope.

I don't know. It's a crazy time to be introspective around what the hell happened this year. The transition around Kartok from the checkout app to the new Shopify app was intense. And then it happened and now we're in the app store. We're featured as a staff pick starting yesterday.

So we'll be up there first. The signups are cranked up. And in many ways, we did not put a lot of pressure on ourselves on the marketing front because just just getting it out, just a new website with a new app, with a new support docs with literally every every single team had this huge thing to get done. So just getting it done and out in time in a way that was acceptable without crazy bugs and all that, that was the accomplishment. Then we did some marketing, we worked with Shopify, all that, but we really haven't started cranking on the marketing.

And so we're looking at Q1 as really when we start to do that. So up until now, we've given ourselves a lot of grace around look, there's only so much we could possibly do and we got a lot of it done. But Q1 is when it really starts to happen. So it feels like one of those moments where relax, you know, there's there's a storm coming. It's going to be there when we're ready for it.

And so why stress out about it now? Like we know we're going to start cranking and hiring and spending money on campaigns and so it's cool to think about, but there's really not much to do there. What are we gonna plan out every single detail? Not really. We'll do that in January.

So it feels like a good time to to chill back.

I feel like 2021 is so unpredictable, you know, given given like how how nobody could have could have predicted 2020. Right? I guess some scientific experts probably did, but

Yes. Yeah. But but what happens in '21?

What in '21 you know what? Like, I I'm no economist but it just seems the economy is going to snap back. The vaccine is rolling out by summer, fall optimistically, I won't say fully back to normal. I think it'll be a very long time. Maybe maybe there is no back to normal, but people are itching to take vacations, to go dine out, like when that becomes a thing again.

There's all that pent up demand. And it's a little bit sad to think about this, how the different classes in society experience this economic state. But there's a lot of people who have been saving more in 2020 and just ready to spend in 2021, I feel like. And I think that could have, I think later in 'twenty one could be an interesting time.

The stock market can't possibly go any higher. But one of the things we figured out in 2020 is that there isn't much connection left between the stock market performance and the economy itself. Like they're just not directly connected the same way.

No, yeah, they're completely different things.

We kind of used to feel like, you could look over at the markets and see, okay, are they up or down? And that was some indicator of the economy and that feels like that's kind of gone. Have you been investing like trading? Not like that. I got into it this year.

No. I mean, I've I've always been a set it and forget it kind of person.

Yeah. Me too. Until this year, until Robinhood. Yeah. And

it's I feel like I I need to do that, but I've been maybe that's that maybe that'll be one of my projects in the next two weeks. Yeah. I don't know if you

really if you need to. I put No.

Not not need to, but but I just feel like I I I constantly feel like my investments are not optimal. They're just they're they're optimal. They're they're optimized for me not looking at them.

Yes. Which there's a value to.

Yeah. Yeah. I'll I'll give a couple of quick updates on process kit, before I, you know, head out on my little vacation here. But two things that I shipped that I think I talked about in the last couple of episodes. One is the onboarding flow, which shipped about two or three weeks ago.

It's onboarding but it's also like a builder that makes it much easier to build a process and a board and then it flows right into a in app tour that like points to this is what this is and this is what that is. Just had two or three new customers convert in the last in the last week who I did not talk to. No demo calls, no nothing. So that's the first sort of positive sign that the new onboarding stuff is it definitely didn't break anything in terms of conversions and and actually I think some people converted maybe easier than than before and that was the goal.

But how's their usage? I I know the right. I assume the trial expired and they convert it to paid, but is the usage there along with that?

I feel like they wouldn't have because it's no credit card upfront.

Oh, okay. Okay. So it's not something At

fourteen days they got the notice like, hey, you're done, you're locked out. And then they logged back in and then they paid. Which means they've been using it. And I could see that they've been using it too. But, that's just a couple of bright spots.

There are plenty of trialers who are not converting still. So that's, you know, it's still a concern definitely. The other thing that I launched now just one week ago is a completely rewritten homepage for process kit. You know, I think on the last episode I was talking about trying to focus in, just get more niched down on the positioning. The thought was maybe niched down to three or four or five different common use cases.

And I started doing that and I thought I would have these different landing pages, one aimed at client onboarding, one aimed at like podcast production, one aimed at sales stuff. I wrote the client onboarding one and I was like, you know what? Why don't I just stop and just make this one the homepage? And that's what I did a week ago and, so that's been live for about, I don't know, maybe nine or ten days now and it's we've had plenty of trial sign ups since I launched it so it didn't break that. So we'll we'll see.

I

don't know.

Cool. I'm interested to see to see how that goes. The the obsession with positioning is is is a good thing. What have we done? I have no idea what we've done.

My my brain is such

a blur. We did have

a great holiday party using this funny app called Gather Town.

Yes. How does that work?

It's kind of hysterical. Gather. Town. It's like this little video game world that you can create for your team. And you can set things up in there.

So we had like these like funny little Easter eggs and pictures of the team. We had a poker table. We had a Pictionary game, and it's kind of like a party. So we had 25 people. It was so much fun.

We had like 25 people in there. And you walk around and when you come close to people, their videos pop up and you can talk to them. And then when you walk away, the videos fade and you keep walking.

That's cool.

You can like have a conversation, walk away, get into another conversation. It was like these little like private areas for conversation. It was it was cool. It was, you know, what are you supposed to do? You can't have a holiday party.

You're not hanging out. You're not having drinks. It's 10AM because we wanted to make sure that the European team could also join.

How does this come about? Like, do have somebody on your team who's like, let's do this?

We we have Shauna on our team who's just naturally inclined toward like putting people together and having fun. So she's just like the social glue. She's the one that pushes the Friday games. She's the one that has like the Friday fives for new people that join. So we just kind of looked to her for like fun stuff.

She's like just younger and cooler all of us are. So we wanted to do something. And she had a few ideas. And we looked at hiring a magician, we looked at hiring people, we looked at everything. Eventually, we came down to like, so this like event companies basically going to run a game for $1,500 for an hour.

We were like, that just doesn't seem very smart. So then we found, she found this gather thing. And I was like, that looks hysterical. And she just put a few days of like fun work on it and then came out with like this whole world for us to play in. It was, it was cool.

It was cool. So we looked at it and it's, it's not expensive. It's pretty cheap actually. We might use it on like a monthly basis for like a happy hour and they have like Pictionary. There's just a lot of laughing, which is kind of what you want.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, especially if you're going into, you know, planning the business as like a remote company, know, like make it a make it a regular thing.

That's it. I'm very interested to see the financials for December because I want to see how things went for the year. So those will be kind of closed out in January. And yeah, you know, I'm I'm very proud of, of the performance overall. It was an intense year with the COVID thing, then the dramatic increase, then the entanglement with Shopify resulting in a partnership agreement.

So it's kind of, you know, we made it through on the business front the same way as on the personal front.

Yeah. Yep. You know, like looking ahead to 2021, I have basically stopped doing annual goals at this point and, and I just don't think that they're very helpful. I think they're, I think, I think it actually makes things harder cause you, cause you think back about what your goals were supposed to be and all that stupid stuff. Like, yeah, not to end on a downer here, but I'm thinking what were all the things that I was wrong about in the last year?

I actually think that that's really helpful to just step back and think about all the assumptions that I had made, big decisions that I, that I made in the last year, two, three years, and try to analyze them. Like, like how did that, how did I expect it to happen or what did I expect to happen and what, what actually happened and why? And I'm, I'm really giving that a lot of thought as I, as I head into 2021. I I'm starting to like change my mind on a lot of approaches to things and, and,

I think that's healthy. If you look at it in detail, then it's a downer. Then it's like, I can't believe I was wrong on that. I was wrong on this other thing. But if you look at it as how did I get into a position where I convinced myself that I was right and I turned out to be wrong?

How is that happening right now? What am I convincing myself of that's true? That might not You

do start to I've already noticed some patterns here. Something that's kind of fresh on my mind, I'll just mention it quickly. I want to give this more thought. It was sort of discussed in my mastermind group. This idea of validation, what is the process for validating?

You could validate a brand new product idea or maybe just validate a big feature direction that you want to go in or a marketing play. So this is mostly thinking about product, right? And everyone forever is like, Oh, you've got to talk to customers. You've got to do customer interviews. You've to do this research.

You've to do this market validation before you're allowed to code anything. Don't code. Waste all that time. You gotta or maybe you should do presales, maybe you should like confirm that people are willing to pay. And looking back on the last several years, I'm really questioning that as generally and I know everyone's like what the fuck are you talking about?

But, I'm with you on that.

I think that there has to be a correction in my view. There needs to be a correction on that stance a little bit because I think that it can be severely misleading.

Or limiting.

Limiting but, alright, if I think, now I'm thinking back three or four years to ops calendar, I did pre sales on that. I had 15 people paying before we had any code. Like three of them turned into actual paying customers later on. Fast forward to ProcessKit which, you know, I'm still working on but I had hundreds, I mean hundreds of customer calls in the last two years and before I even started coding or in the very early days of that, like I had 50 plus customer research interviews that really seemed to validate and confirm the direction that I was going in and also certain features were heavily informed by customer conversations. It hasn't grown to the MRR that I would have hoped it would have by now, know?

My conclusion that I'm coming to is at the end of the day it's easier to validate when you have a product that is ready to sell now. If I think back to audience ops, part of the reason why it took off so fast was because I didn't need to pre validate anything. I was like, here's a landing page, here's a thing, do you want to buy it? Good, buy it and now we can start delivering it to you now. You really don't learn anything until you actually try to not only ask for money but ask them to use it.

Now that I have the skill of building software, I've built a few apps now, you know, not as many as I would like but I know that like any other app that I build would be built 10 times faster than process kit was built or at least the MVP for it would be. And so I think that there's much more value in the ability to ship an MVP, I'm talking in like thirty days. Not waste six months, not waste twelve or eighteen months.

Right. Don't build an isolation to that extent,

but But it's not the end of the world to do a little market research, but then code up an MVP and ship that within thirty days and then get it in front of people. Like that's not that it's thirty days. It's not that much of a risk and then at least you have something to start the conversations, you know.

Yeah. I guess I I go farther. I I think that's a good approach and it is better than the let me validate everything. But I think the key there is trusting yourself.

You have to have some gut instincts, some insider knowledge about a market. Something that you've seen, maybe scratching your own itch, but or or or seen patterns.

An inexplicable hunch on where things are going is is enough.

Justin Jackson has been on this idea for for a couple of years of of you gotta find, you gotta ride these waves of demand.

Existing demand. Okay.

And I and I think that that that resonates with me, you know, quite a bit, but but I think one of his key ideas that maybe not enough people latch onto that I hear I hear him trying to to say is like, you know how you find those waves? I think he says like you you paddle out. You're you're in the waters. You're you're doing stuff. So I I think you just gotta ship stuff.

Ship ideas quickly. And that could be coding, that could be releasing an article or a podcast but like you got to put stuff out there and then gauge reaction to it and then work off of that, iterate off of that, you know?

Yeah. I think that's a good topic to noodle on. I remember having conversations with investors at some point in the past and a lot of them being very data driven. And I would kind of tell them, just so you know, I'm not data driven, you know? And it was like that that might not be a good fit for you because I follow my gut a lot and that's what led to the cart hook checkout success.

Right? The the assumption has always been in ecommerce that the platform owns the checkout and there was absolutely no reason to challenge that whatsoever. And there's no validation for it. And there was no, I mean, yeah, sure. There was other things in the market happening, ClickFunnels, all this other stuff.

It was a non data driven decision to build a product like that. But but it led into the right area. So yeah, I don't know what to tell you on, you know, the there was an extreme time of extreme devotion toward the lean startup data driven. Just put it out there, learn, learn, learn, learn. And I can understand how that minimizes the risk of wasting millions of dollars.

Can understand that. But there does come a time where you have to kind of trust your instincts and your gut and what you see that other people don't see does not mean you're wrong.

Right.

It could also mean that you're the only one that sees it.

Yeah. And I also think that sometimes customer conversations can, can be very misleading and they don't intend to. I've had a lot of customer conversations around process kit. I went back and listened to one year ago on Bootstrapped Web which I never do this kind of thing but I did this time And I was talking about like, oh, customers keep wanting this need to work with their clients on process kit. They keep wanting to show things to their clients, request things from their clients and interact with clients.

And so my answer to that a year ago was let me try to bolt on this guest's feature in process kit, which we did and we shipped it. And that doesn't solve the problem, you know? But I was convinced of that based on all these conversations and I'm still sitting here one year later and I'm still hearing the same needs from customers and that's going to be like the next direction. I don't even know if it's going to be in process kit or maybe a separate thing, but like I'm trying to better understand what I, what I was hearing from these customers because what I thought I was hearing ended up not being the solution to that problem, you know? And so it's, it's just, it's a really difficult thing, you know?

I agree. Well, here's to 2021 being a year of, I don't know, being wrong less

for both of us. Much.

Yep. Cool. Well, thanks for listening throughout the year. Brian, it's been a pleasure.

Another year, right? A Pleasure as always, Mr. Gal. Yep.

Absolutely. Cool, man. Well, I hope you have a great two weeks and that you have interesting ideas that are not directly related to doing work.

I just hope I I watch a bunch of movies on like a Tuesday morning. That's that's my goal.

Yeah. I think I'm there with my oldest daughter. Like she's interested. I just bought her the Lord of the Ring books.

Oh, alright.

And she wants to watch Big with Tom Hanks. I'm like, we might we might explore some of this cool Very like like old school

cool. Very cool.

Awesome. I got a new a new chess set. So Oh, nice. Here's to the next next two weeks being to celebrating.

We got one of those Nintendo classics. Nintendo sells a classic console with with 30 classic games built into it. So so my daughters and I have been playing Mario one, Mario three, like Oh my god.

Are they just like, dad, why are you so good at this?

And it's it's crazy how hours, honey. It's crazy how, like, the the muscle memory of all these, like, hacks in in Mario that I knew, like, thirty years ago.

Oh, yeah.

I still know. Yeah. It's amazing. Awesome.

Alright. Well, I hope everyone listening has a great holidays and New Year's. We'll see you in 2021. Later, bro.