[31] Mastermind Groups. What, Who, How, and Why?
Hello. Welcome to Bootstrapped Web episode 31. This show is for you, fellow Bootstrapped business owner. You believe that to get to where you're going, you'll have to learn by doing. I'm Brian Castle and I believe that too.
Speaker 1:So let's do this. Today, I've got my buddy Jordan Gal on the show. Jordan is a returning guest host of the show and today we are talking all about mastermind groups. He and I are in a mastermind group together and we talk all about what it's like being in a mastermind group, what what a mastermind group is all about, the value of it, how to form one if you're not in one already, how to structure it, the tools, the the rules, the everything that goes into it's all about mastermind groups today. That's that's what I'm trying to tell you.
Speaker 1:So definitely stay tuned for that. By the way, Jordan is the founder of a of a very cool bootstrap startup and that is called CartHook. So what his what I really like about his app is that it's it's so simple. It does one thing and it does one thing really well. If you run an ecommerce store, just plug in his tool to your shopping cart and it prevents abandoned carts.
Speaker 1:So it it basically grabs the user's information. If they abandon the cart, it can send them an email, get them to come back and complete their purchase. Pretty cool. You can get that return on investment. You know, I love that kind of value proposition.
Speaker 1:So he's done a great job starting that from zero over the past year and and really growing and getting those paying customers in the door. It's been awesome to be in the Mastermind Group with Jordan and watch that that progression from zero to paying customers. It's just awesome to see. So we talk all about that kind of stuff and how the Mastermind Group has helped him grow over the past year. So what's going on?
Speaker 1:Today, July 4. Happy July 4 to those of you in The States. I hope I hope where you're at, it's it's sunny and warm and you're gonna see some fireworks, maybe, you know, drink a beer, do some barbecue. That's not happening up here in the Northeast Of The US. It is it's pretty gray and rainy out there.
Speaker 1:So all that stuff is basically put on hold. So not so much fun. I'm I'm here in the office on April recording a podcast. Fun stuff. Actually, it is fun for me.
Speaker 1:I mean, for us, bootstrapped business owners. This is what we do. Right? I mean, I actually like these national holidays because it's a chance to get into the office and actually get some real work done when when everybody else is not sending customer support emails or nobody wants to meet and nobody wants to call and, you know, all that stuff. A quiet work time.
Speaker 1:I love these national holidays. So here I am recording a podcast on Friday, July 4. Anyway, what else is up? So five days ago, Monday, I launched this so okay. So this is something that's on my mind.
Speaker 1:I I kinda wanna run it by you real quick. So I I launched this new free video course called content marketing automation. Been talking about it a while, finally launched it. It's pretty well received by the people who are going through it. I'm getting some good feedback.
Speaker 1:But I have this I don't know. I have this feeling about it that it's like it's not quite right. The topic, the audience, the value, that's not quite aligned. I I just I I I have that gut instinct now that, like, I didn't do my job properly in understanding who my audience is and what exactly they need, what exactly they want, what is their pain or biggest challenge that they're trying to solve. I don't know that this course really cuts straight to that.
Speaker 1:I I think it's I think I put this thing together and and this is a trap that I've fallen into in the past, I kinda scratched my own itch with this thing, like so the it's an info product, it it starts with a free course and then beyond that, I I'm pitching a a paid extension where I'm actually giving away the systems and the procedures and the whole package of how we do our content marketing. So I I put it together kind of like a scratch your my own itch type of deal where this is something that I learned over the last two and a half years building my business. It was very hard to build, but it has resulted in a very effective marketing channel. Our content marketing is fully automated, outsourced, and delegated to my team, thanks to these systems that we've put in place, and it's worked really well for me. So now I kinda wanna teach that, but I still don't know.
Speaker 1:I I I don't know if that's exactly something that my particular audience, the people who are on my newsletter, you guys listening to this podcast, I don't know if that's really what you want or or what you need. I think I just kinda put it out there because I it was something that I wanted to teach, and and I think I think it would have value for a segment of folks in my audience, but, not everyone. It doesn't exactly apply to everyone. Like, if you're just getting started or if or if you'd like to do content marketing yourself and you don't wanna delegate it and systematize it, I mean, that's fully valid as well. So maybe this doesn't apply to those folks.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I mean so I I think I just didn't do all of the necessary legwork upfront, where I should have, you know, really done the research, the you know, really kinda digging into who is my my audience and what is their biggest challenge. So I have this newsletter. I've been growing it for over a year, and it's and I am starting to gain a wider audience now, and and that's really exciting. And and the great thing about that is that I am starting to build, at least this week, this is kind of the the clarity that I'm gaining this week after, like, after the fact of launching this little free course is this, is that I think I'm getting a better picture of who my audience is.
Speaker 1:Because what happens is I have this newsletter, the day after somebody joins my newsletter, I send out an email where I say, hey, what are you working on and what is your biggest challenge right now? And I get a lot of great responses from from folks, and and I love it when people hit reply on that email. Most of them know it's an automated email from me, but but then I'll I'll actually read the emails and I'll personally reply and we get into a little conversation. This has happened a couple of 100 times now over the past past year as I've been building this list. And after seeing so many of these replies, I am starting to see a thread in in a lot of them and that is that's basically that my audience are made up of people who are similar to me.
Speaker 1:And I guess that's not very surprising, but people who start out as freelancers or they're currently freelancing, maybe in the web design, web development fields, maybe not, maybe they're like marketers or engineers or doing, you know, different things, but mostly consultants who are aiming or aspiring or in the process of transitioning over to products, or or finding ways to scale up their business, systematize it, you know, productize their service, and and that's kind of a growing movement these days. And and that's something that I that I've been basically doing myself for the past two years or so. I used to be a freelance web designer and now I run a a web design product, you know, in a niche vertical. And and I've made that transition away from doing the client projects into the software as a service business model. And so I I think my audience are, you know, these responses that I'm getting on my newsletter when I ask them what is your biggest challenge?
Speaker 1:Most of them say, well, I'm I'm doing consulting, I've gotta kinda pay the bills, and I just don't have enough time in the day, but I really wanna launch this product idea, or I'm in the process of launching this product, but it's not quite where I need it to be yet, I still need to do those client projects. That's what I'm hearing, and I see a pattern in a lot in a lot of these responses. So with that in mind, I'm I'm moving forward with a much clearer picture of who my audience really is, and and I wanna learn even more about that. I want to get into that mindset of of that transition. I mean, I'm personally am still in that mindset for sure.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm not really doing consulting work anymore these days, but it it is fresh in my mind that, like, making that transition and building a bootstrapped self funded startup to to change the way that you earn a living in in this in this industry. It's it's exciting. It's extremely challenging. It can be very stressful. I've gone through it all, ups and downs, making tons and tons of mistakes.
Speaker 1:So I can certainly relate to it. And so I guess I guess what I'm saying is I'm I'm trying to really get to know you. Now that my audience is growing and that's really exciting and all, I I'm not so much concerned about the numbers and the quantity of subscribers and and the and the traffic numbers. I mean, that's all great, but what I'm what I'm most focused on is trying to understand who that audience is. As every new person enters my audience, I wanna really get to know where they're at and what those overall trends are across this group.
Speaker 1:So so thank you for you guys who have who have hit reply on that email that you received when I when you joined my newsletter. If you're not on my newsletter, please join, and then please do respond to that email because I I love getting those responses. You're gonna hear back from me. I respond to every person, you know. So and I love getting into these these back and forths, know, like throwing back ideas or or showing me a prototype of your product in progress or where you're at or, you know, just tell me what's up because I I really wanna know about it.
Speaker 1:So that's it. Just I I said my piece. Just really focusing on that and that's that's what I'm looking at for the next six months. So so, yeah, with that, let's let's let's head into the main event today. We're talking all about mastermind groups.
Speaker 1:I think you're really gonna get a lot out of this. We talked tactics. We talked value. Jordan is a great guy to to learn from. I certainly learn a ton from this guy every time I talk to him.
Speaker 1:So yeah. Enjoy. The main event, I'm gonna talk with Jordan Gal. Alright. We're here with with another episode here with my friend Jordan Gal.
Speaker 1:Jordan, welcome to the show. Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. Nice to nice to be back.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So so I don't remember which episode number that was. I probably should have came a little prepared. But Jordan was on a previous episode here, we talked about kind of start ups and and momentum and moving forward and kinda getting things off the ground. Today, we're we're taking a different topic and it's all about mastermind groups.
Speaker 1:So so Jordan and I are in a mastermind group together. We've we've been in this group for, I think, over a year now. And so we're just gonna talk all about the ins and outs of of mastermind groups for for business owners. So let's let's get right actually, you know what? Before we even really get into the points that we have here, just for anyone who's new to to business or bootstrapping or startups in general or whatever.
Speaker 1:I mean, what is a mastermind group? Like, when I explain this to anyone who is not business owner or entrepreneur, like, they're like mastermind group? That that sounds like, what what is that all about? You know, like, even like, yeah. I mean, just like like, it it's just kinda hard to relate to this sort of thing, like, it's important and and why it is valuable to people like us.
Speaker 1:So, basically, you know, a mastermind group is it's essentially like a support group for, you know, a couple of, like, like minded entrepreneurs. I guess it comes in all shapes and sizes. Like, ours is fairly small. Our group is, like, six people. And I'm in a second group.
Speaker 1:It's actually only four of us. And but other groups can be, you know, ten, twenty people, and then there are, like, even larger ones. But the whole idea is, like, you meet on a regular basis. You talk about your business, and you kinda throw ideas back and forth, challenge each other, you know, keep each other accountable. It's also private, so you can kind of run run through ideas that you don't wanna be sharing out on your blog or on Twitter or just talking to anyone like at a conference.
Speaker 1:These are people who you, you know, these are like friends and colleagues who you meet on a regular basis and you can, like, help each other, like, deal with the challenges that we all face. The decision making, am I am I doing things correctly? Is is this really the best path that I'm on and and that and you just, like, run that kind of stuff by each other. So, mean, like, Jordan, like, what what do you get out of being in the mastermind group?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's a it's a funny catch all phrase mastermind. I get made fun of regularly from my non non startup entrepreneur friends because the word mastermind sounds a little a little odd. It's essentially it's a big catch all because it ranges from, right, what we do on a regular basis, which at this point, it's turned to almost like friends once a week. And it goes all the way up to like, you know, semi annual $10,000 a person mastermind groups and yeah.
Speaker 2:So there's a there's a big range, but what we're gonna be talking about in our experience is just a regular meeting essentially. And the reason it's so valuable to people like us is because what normally happens in an office setting, these social interactions between people who are, you know, higher up than you in the company and have more experience and below, these dynamics evaporate when you work online, especially if you work online by yourself. So it seems to be like the yeah. These mastermind groups kinda help people get that normal career support and answering questions and getting different perspectives. Yeah.
Speaker 2:In terms of in terms of what I get out of it, there's there's a lot of different facets to it. So there's the accountability piece. Just having people that you talk to, that you respect and like on a regular basis, to to not do what you said you were gonna do, it just doesn't feel right. Right? Especially when it's people that you you respect.
Speaker 2:So the accountability is a big thing. With that comes some social pressure. I think there's also huge value in just just different perspectives. Everyone has different experiences in their lives and their careers, and you have a problem. You only know your particular point of view on it.
Speaker 2:You bring it to a group of people that you trust, and everyone has different perspective, things that you wouldn't have thought of. So there there's there's a lot of different types of value that that come out
Speaker 1:of it. Yeah. Totally. And and, know, the other thing is is that it it is pretty structured, and we're gonna talk a minute in a minute how we actually structure our meetings and a few ideas for how you might structure your meeting if you're just starting up a new mastermind group. You know, there are, like, structures and tools in place to help us become more, accountable and and state what our goals are and how we actually track our goals from week to week.
Speaker 1:But, you know, even just the fact of talking through it and and stating it out loud, like, this is my plan. This is what I'm going to do. And telling that to to a couple of of friends in in the group, it that in itself just kinda keeps you accountable because, you know, back when I was running my business, you know, solo founder, did I wasn't in a mastermind group for many years. I would just kinda do things, and then I would just change my mind and change course and then go down a different path and do this and then do that. And, you know, if I had been doing that with the weekly mastermind groups, they'd be like, wait.
Speaker 1:Didn't you say you were gonna do something? And, you know, it so I think just the fact of just, like like, verbalizing what your plan is and then verbalizing what kind of progress you're making on that plan really, really helps.
Speaker 2:Right. And it's not that everyone it's not that the other people are upset with you that you didn't do it. It's just that even hearing yourself speak week to week and and just hearing yourself be flaky in terms of Right. I I was gonna do this, now I'm changing my mind. It it's a self check.
Speaker 2:Right? Because everyone else is obviously accepting of what you're gonna do with your business. It's your business. It's more that it's internal. It helps you keep up with with your goals and strategies for longer than you would have if you hadn't shared them.
Speaker 2:And there always needs to be one person who's like a leader and Right. For us, that's Matt.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right? So he starts off the calls and he's first of all, he calls everyone. Without him, that falls apart too. And he keeps the Google Doc going with what we said we were gonna do last week, and then at the end of the call, we share what we plan on doing next week. So there definitely needs to be that that role that takes things from oral down to, you know, writing it down on a Google Doc so it's public for everyone to see.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And and and we can kinda get into that the the tools and recording and all that stuff in a minute. So, I mean, let let's kinda go back a year, you know, when we first started this group.
Speaker 1:Where were you at? You like, what what led you to this group? I I mean, I know, you know, Javier was the one who kind of started this off through through mixergy.com. But, like, where were you at when you applied for the group? And, like, what were you looking for at the time?
Speaker 1:And what I have had you ever been in a group like this before before this one?
Speaker 2:Not like this. So I I'd say, right, I was in two places. In terms of the business, I was right, I had the idea for Cardhook, but I hadn't gotten it developed and I hadn't gotten it off the ground. But I knew I wanted to build a software as a service company. And the other piece where I was in terms of mentally, I was just getting into a phase where I admitted to myself that I shouldn't stay so insulated and just keep everything to myself that I needed to get out there and start meeting people and making connections.
Speaker 2:Right? It's the strange thing when you don't do that, you're always listening to people and watching people from afar, people you admire, bloggers, and it just feels like they're like in the club and you're not and there's no way to get in. And that's just complete, you know, BS. Mhmm. What you need to do is just start.
Speaker 2:And and I was just getting to that piece where every time I saw an opportunity, I made myself be proactive and get out there and send the email and ask and ask for advice and talk to someone and ask them to get on Skype. So it it kinda came just at that time. And I guess it's not a coincidence that I was very determined to get a software company started in a situation where I was I'm not a developer, and at the same time I wanted to get out there. I think those two coincided with, alright, I just have to if I wanna make this happen, I need to start getting out there. And so what when that opportunity came across on Mixergy, that someone's starting a mastermind, I could have said, you know what?
Speaker 2:I'm not quite at that level yet or whatever I I could have excuses I could have made. And instead, I reacted to it. And, yeah, that that's how that's how the whole thing got started.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Totally. I mean, I think it was pretty similar for me. I mean, I was I I actually was actively seeking a mastermind group right around the time that that that post came out on Mixergy. And and once it hit, I was like, oh, man.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad I caught this post. I I applied, like, right away. Like, it was exactly what I was looking for. Because before that, I was reaching out to other entrepreneurs and, you know, hey, you know, can can I pick your brain over Skype for a couple minutes or, you know, talking to people at conferences or whatever, just shooting, like, you know, asking questions over email to people that I look up to. And I think that it that's a very important thing to do, you know, to to do that from time to time and it's like reach out to people, pick their brain.
Speaker 1:But but what I found was, especially when I don't know the person very well, if they're nice enough to give me their time, it's still just a very surface level conversation. You you know? And and it's only a one time conversation. It's like it's not like we've agreed to engage in, a coaching or adviser relationship. Right?
Speaker 1:This is just a one time pick your brain. I do I would do that from time to time, but I was still, like, I I needed guidance. I needed, you know, a group of advisers that could help week in, week out. I was I think my wife was getting pretty bored of me, you know, just putting out all my business problems at the dinner table. You know, she she kinda had enough of that after a while.
Speaker 1:So so, you know, I I started looking around for for a a group, a mastermind group. I actually wasn't really sure how to go about finding one. I I saw a oh, I I saw a thread on Hacker News which led to kind of a Skype chat room, and I joined that, but that didn't really go anywhere. So and then I found the mastermind group through Mixergy, and I and it was kind of luck, you know, that that I I was accepted and and that I joined up with with you guys, and and that was really cool. But how would one go about creating a mastermind if they're looking to get into one?
Speaker 1:I mean, do you have any ideas on that? It might might I think like ours, it just kinda came out of the blue and we happened to catch that post on Mixergy. But, like, how would someone do it?
Speaker 2:Yes. And it's also rare that, you know, we've been able to keep it going and enjoy it as much as we do and everyone clicks and all that. But so what it makes me think of, I was just speaking to a new friend, someone who someone who reached out of the blue and said, hey, I heard about you from a friend. I'd like to talk, and now we talk regularly. So he's he's made that switch into, I'm just gonna start talking to people and reaching out to people and making friends and, you know.
Speaker 2:So when I spoke with him, he asked me about this mastermind group, ours that we're talking about, and said, can I get in? So I think that might be the easiest way to get into one. Find an existing one. Next time you talk to someone, one of your buddies, you hear about a mastermind, just ask to get in. In our situation, we have I think is the the limit number of people, so it doesn't make sense to continue Right.
Speaker 2:Adding people. But if you can't get into an existing one, which would be the easiest way, it doesn't take much. The sec two people is a weird mastermind. Right? That's just friends talking.
Speaker 2:Once you get a third person involved, you have something that from the outside people wanna be a part of. So that's what I would say. Someone that you've come in contact with in this way, you reach out to online, you click, you hit it off, talk to them. Say, hey, I think we should do a mastermind. Let's find other people like us.
Speaker 2:Do you have another buddy? I'll bring one more, and just cobble it together. Once you have a group of three and you talk about it as a group, I think people from the outside will wanna get in, and and then it'll it'll be easier to to attract you.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Absolutely. I mean so that is a a great approach. The other thing so I'm actually in a second mastermind. We're we're in ours on Fridays.
Speaker 1:I'm in another one on Thursdays, every other Thursday. And the way that formed was, it was through MicroConf. So MicroConf, I think, the last couple of years has been known for giving birth to several mastermind groups. You know, it's it's a great conference because there are so many like minded, you know, founders. I mean, it's all about, you know, bootstrap software founders.
Speaker 1:Most of the people who show up at MicroConf tend to have something like some kind of product or some kind of app that is off the ground and at least has become a little bit established. So that's a good kind of pool of of people to to start joining up with. And then attached to MicroConf, have, like, an online forum component, and that's where these mastermind groups started to come together. Like, one person started organizing like a whole thread of people interested in joining mastermind groups. So I kinda threw my hat in there.
Speaker 1:And then through that, there was something like five mastermind groups that were born out of that. And so the one that we were in, turned out to have it ended up being like seven or eight people. And we we kind of all agreed that that's too many people for for the group that we're going for. We we really wanted to keep it small. So we kind of split our group into two.
Speaker 1:And and and so now our our group has four people.
Speaker 2:Sounds better.
Speaker 1:So, know, I think that, you know, going to these getting out there, going to these conferences, you know, whether it's microconf or even like local meetups. That's another one. I mean, around here locally, I wouldn't really call this a mastermind group, but every every three or four weeks, a couple of local web designers, developers, all of us are self employed business owners. We we get together for dinner and drinks and stuff. You know, it's just good kinda good to get these kind of networking opportunities going and then out of that, you can, you know, you know, reach out to people and say, hey, let's let's try to join, you know, start a mastermind group.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And and I think what your microconf point speaks to is the whole thing about microconf is it's what, a hundred hundred and fifty people that make up a very, very specific niche. Bootstrap, web, not interested in raising money, product focused, right, all these things that the second you come together with people like this, it's just this immediate, woah, you're in the same situation. I've probably heard of your business because this little world is so small. So I think what that speaks to is what type of people should be in your mastermind.
Speaker 2:Right? And one of the reasons that the second that Mixergy post came out, the sec I jumped on it immediately because if I remember correctly, the post was about Javier wants to start a mastermind group for people who are interested in starting a software as a service company.
Speaker 1:That's right. That that was like the common thread for for our group. It's all SaaS.
Speaker 2:Right. And that was the kicker for me because I said, oh my you know, people who wanna do this, who are further ahead than I am, right, my product isn't launched yet, like, is gonna be the most valuable thing ever because it's so relevant. So that's why meetups would be good or microconf Yeah. Or anyone in your situation. If you're a consultant that does consulting work for, you know, x niche, look for other consultants in that network.
Speaker 2:Mean, ideally not competing, but but still, people in similar situation will wanna hang on to each other immediately.
Speaker 1:That that is a very important point is, you know, as you as you do start to seek out a group and seek out fellow members, you do wanna find, like you said, like like someone, you know, a group that all shares a common thread. For a little while, you know, a little like, year or two ago, I was in I started a a mastermind group for consultants for you know, because I was I was still doing a little bit of consulting work. I wanted to kinda have people to bounce ideas off when it came to doing, like, client work and proposals and invoicing and all that kind of stuff. And I was in that for a few months. Eventually, I I kind of left that group because I kinda stopped doing consulting and focused more on the product side.
Speaker 1:But, you you know, like, I I just didn't find value in it. I didn't think I was providing value anymore since I was no longer a consultant. But that group continued on because they're all consultants. So I think it is important to kind of stick with a group of, you know, who who people who are kinda doing the same thing. The other thing that and this is something where our group is a little bit different from my other group.
Speaker 1:You know, I really enjoy our group and and I think it's it's great because we have, you know, some great chemistry together and that's what I really get out of it. But I think that maybe the one downside is that, you know, everyone in our group are are kind of at diff different levels or different not different levels, but a little bit further along or a little bit farther behind in the process of starting a a business. Like, some some of us are still in that, like, build and launch phase. Some of us are in that, like, growth phase. Some are some are, like, in the traction phase.
Speaker 1:You know, it's a little bit not
Speaker 2:It's a very yeah. It's a very interesting dilemma. Yeah. The right. The ideal are people who have very similar problems, ideally similar business model, similar business like software as a service, but not competing.
Speaker 2:You can just give away everything without hesitation and you know they're doing the same because there's no downside. It's only a great thing to show someone what is working for you and hopefully works for them too. So that's the type the type of people. That's the ideal.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, like, that's what I really like about my other group is that we're all I think, you know, more or less around the the same level of growth and and, like, phase of growth where we're at. And we all have like highly niche products. Like one guy works mostly with doctors, another one works mostly with condo management companies, you know. It it's very and and, you know, my business is around restaurants and hospitality.
Speaker 1:So it's it's interesting that way. And and, you know, it's more about, like, how how are we gonna tweak our marketing to get to increase our growth rate. Whereas you know, what's interesting about our group is that it started out as that SaaS theme. Yeah. And now, like It's moving.
Speaker 2:It it has moved. Shifting.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh. You know, it I think all of us in the group have have shifted more towards, like, the info product stuff. And and I mean, in my business, I I kinda do both. Like, I I do the SaaS stuff with the restaurant engine and, you know, on on cash jam here, you know, with podcast and everything, I'm doing more info products and and and you're doing the same thing. So it's it's kinda interesting how, like, now I I look at our Friday mastermind as, this is, my info product mastermind group.
Speaker 2:At first, I just wanna say, it's okay if you like your other group better. It's fine. No. No. You guys
Speaker 1:you guys came first. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes. The yeah. That issue of people being at different levels is is very interesting. Look. There's there's no it's not bad.
Speaker 2:It is what it is. People are just further along and more successful, less successful, and, look, that's that's part of business.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And that can be great in a lot of ways. I think
Speaker 2:I I would agree. I think it's always ideal to be the the least successful person in the group.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Right? A group you wanna get into, you don't wanna be the best, which is why I worry about our our most successful member. He's gonna lose.
Speaker 1:I do.
Speaker 2:Know. Yes. You don't
Speaker 1:it is interesting to, like, be able to, like, give advice and also get advice from someone who's been there and going there, you know.
Speaker 2:And compete in a friendly way.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, it look, business is competitive, and I think it's healthy to look around and say, I'm just as smart of these guys, and, you know, this guy's doing this well. I can do that well. I I maybe I can do better, you know. Maybe it's gonna feel really good if I do better. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's that's fine.
Speaker 1:And you know what's great about about our group and and this is this is what can really work if your mastermind kinda sticks with it for the long haul, is you start to see real progress being made. I think you're like the perfect example of that, you know, in our group. I mean, maybe, like, can you talk a little little bit about where were you at on day one of our mastermind, and where are you at today in both CartHook and then now in your info products, you know, kind of real quick.
Speaker 2:Yes. And I I'm very happy that I can speak about this fondly because I think I jumped into the the group. I mean, I didn't even have I had an idea. I had no product. So I kind of finagled my way into the group.
Speaker 2:Like, I didn't really have a product, but I've done this stuff before and I've run an ecommerce company that I built and sold and, you know, I just kind of made my application sound really good. But when I when I got in, I very much looked in the mirror and said, I am the low man on totem pole. I don't have a product. A lot of these guys are not just, you know, launched but kicking butt. And that lit the competitive fire very much.
Speaker 2:So at the very beginning, I came in, I had the idea for Cardhook, but I was not settled on one particular idea to to go on. If you remember in the beginning, I changed a few times, I did some research on a few different ones, And then I finally decided, and then that's when I met my my partner, Charlie, out in San Francisco, and he's the developer. And then I had it built. Right? So this is us talking every Friday.
Speaker 2:So the first maybe two months, I was feeling like a huge fraud. Like, look, I can contribute what I can contribute, but I don't even have a product. I'm not talking about the same issues and same problems. And I think it was really healthy for me to wanna rush through that and get there. And then, you know, having gone through the development phase and definitely getting a lot of help from people and answering different issues, right?
Speaker 2:My CardHook is a product that uses email and emails on behalf of people. So there are a whole bunch of issues. And then launching and then getting my first paying customers, and now I'm at right around 20 paying customers. So I look back on that, you know, and I'm very it's almost like a relief that I can talk about it happily instead of being like, oh, this excuse and that excuse, and I never quite got here and quite got there. But it's definitely been an evolution in public Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which is
Speaker 2:probably good.
Speaker 1:And hitting those I mean, the I think the biggest milestone of all is getting the the very first paying customer. I mean, that is you can never get enough of that feeling. I I think I've I've said before that the the feeling of getting that first paying customer is even better than, like, the hundredth paying customer. Because it's like, okay. Somebody this this is proven Somebody's willing to pay for this.
Speaker 1:That means I can get a second paying customer. You know?
Speaker 2:Right. And it took me a little longer than that just because I felt like, you know, what if they just cancel or what if it it was just infinite number of what ifs. But after the third and fourth and tenth, then I said to myself, you know what? If I can get 10, I can get 20. If I can get 20, I can get 15.
Speaker 2:If I can get that, I can get a 100 and
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Now, you know, you turn the corner from is this a good idea? Are people finding this valuable to, you know, let's start pushing, marketing, sales, know, putting people in the top of the funnel. Yeah. So that evolution has been great and I feel like as I learn and go through each problem, right, I contribute back to the group on what my approach would be, you know, to someone else's situation.
Speaker 1:Totally. I mean, it it's been like it's been the ultimate, like, case study to really see, you know, and and and kinda talk through the decision making that goes into each of these steps, you know, like, which which idea should I choose? What is the launch sequence? How how am I gonna get those first paying customers? What are the tactics?
Speaker 1:You know, I remember, you know, talking through the like the cold calling strategy and cold emailing and all that stuff and like, you know, it's it's just really fun to kinda be a part of that without officially being a part of it. You know, that's that's another part of being a mastermind. It's like you're it's almost like your partners or like advisors, you know, without that official capacity.
Speaker 2:Right. And you hear that a lot from very successful people that giving back and helping other people, helping other entrepreneurs become successful is hugely rewarding in a very different way than, you know, than business success for oneself. I'm all for selfishness and being successful, you know, monetarily, but it does feel great to help and contribute and and be part of someone else's success.
Speaker 1:Very cool. Yeah. So let's go through like a few structural tack tactical kind of things when it comes to mastermind groups, you know, how to really structure it the right way from the very beginning and then how to get the most out of it ongoing. So I I'd say let's go with, like, ideal number of members. I I would put that actually at less than ours, like, probably, like, three or four to me is ideal.
Speaker 1:But it it can stretch up to, like, six or seven. I mean, what do you think?
Speaker 2:How many do we have in ours? What's the official count? Is it seven?
Speaker 1:I think now we're up to seven. Right. There's always, like, one or two who don't don't show up.
Speaker 2:That's what I was gonna say. If if you only have three in the group and one doesn't make it, it's not that it's a bad thing. The the truth is what we have found, at the beginning, we were psyched that there were a lot of people. And then we would have a few weeks where, you know, two or three couldn't make it and you'd have a conversation with three people or four people. And at the end of that hour, everyone would look at each other and say, that was that was great.
Speaker 2:That was because you can get deeper in.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Right. But I think Matt has done an amazing job in terms of the format and structure. Right? So ours has like seven, let's say an average of five or six show up on any given Friday.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I mean and that works for us, but, you know, also part of me, I I'm disappointed when people don't show up, and I mean, I I haven't shown up to a number of meetings and Mhmm. It's especially on a day when when I was planning on sharing something and I really wanted to get the advice of one or two particular people and then they don't show up. Yeah. You know, there there have been situations when I'd be like, oh, maybe I I should just save my thing for next week.
Speaker 1:So that's why I I do think that attendance is super important. Because even on the days that you're that you don't plan to to share anything, you know, it's you know, the other guys are are depending on you. So you you gotta go in there and and yeah. I I think our group is a little bit looser in that sense and that's okay. You know, we're we it's it's really more of like a friendly meeting, but but yeah.
Speaker 1:I I mean, we've we've also had, like, spin off conversation. Like, yesterday, you and I just kinda talked for a while and and, you know, that happens quite a bit. So
Speaker 2:Right. I mean, that's that's the unspoken
Speaker 1:Sorry. It's loud over here.
Speaker 2:That's that's exciting. I'm the one in Miami. It's supposed be loud here.
Speaker 1:Bustling Norwalk, Connecticut over here. So
Speaker 2:so that's the unexpected piece of the mastermind that you become friends, and then these offshoot conversations aren't, hey, do you have a minute to talk? It's me and you chatting and saying, hey, this is interesting. Let's get further into it. So back on topic, I think because we have six or seven people, it is a little looser, but I can see that being the number one reason that masterminds fall apart. And they do fall apart because we know multiple masterminds came out of that same blog post on Mixergy.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And we're the only ones still going. And it was, you know, it was cool of Andrew to show up on our one year anniversary, which was fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
Speaker 2:But attendance is is hugely important. And the number of people now, right, if we think back to the beginning, what we tried to do, we had five or six people show up, and we would try to get everybody in. So which left basically ten minutes. And ten minutes is not long enough to give and receive. You can give an update on what you're doing in ten minutes, but you don't really care that much to give an update.
Speaker 2:You you wanna talk about is what you wanna hear is here's my situation, here's what's going on, and then you wanna hear back Yeah. To get people's opinions. So what Matt did that was very smart was he said, let's not everybody go in the same Mastermind. Let's take turns. And, you know, it's reciprocal.
Speaker 2:Maybe this time we're not gonna talk about you, but the truth is you're gonna get plenty out of it anyway. And next week, it'll be more focused on you. So now we do, like, two people and it's half an hour each and you get much more out of it. And the truth is the people who are the so called spectators who aren't in the center of it, I think you get just as much out of it because it's more in-depth.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think our group, again, we're a little bit looser like we, you know, sometimes it's two and that mixes into, like, a third person or sometimes one person talks for fifteen minutes, another person for, like, forty five minutes. It it kinda depends on what the issue is or what the thing is that we wanna get feedback on.
Speaker 1:In my other group, it is definitely more structured. We actually have a timer now. So so, like, you know, I think it's something like twenty minutes. What is it? Fifth it's like I think it's like twenty minutes each person, and and our meetings last.
Speaker 1:They've been lasting about ninety minutes, but we meet every two weeks.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Whereas ours meets every week. So that's another question here. It's like meeting frequency. Right? So I think I actually do like the the every two.
Speaker 1:So I think it's good for both of our groups. Since we have more people in our in our group, I think it's better to meet every week. But in the smaller group where everyone shares in every meeting, we meet every two weeks.
Speaker 2:Right. It's almost too much. Yeah. I think that makes sense.
Speaker 1:And I think two weeks is a good span of time because a lot has happened in two weeks, and we can really talk about, like, a big a big change in progress. Whereas, our week, it's more like, you know, four times in a row, I'll be, you know, still still turning on this on this one thing that I'm working on. You know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. A week is a blink of an eye. So I I get that feeling too. I I look at what I wrote in the Google Doc from last week that said, you know, what I want to accomplish. Like, but it was just I felt like, you know, just like that, it went by and yeah.
Speaker 2:Two weeks I think two weeks is good. Yeah. I think ours one hour every week and yeah. I can I can see look, the truth is, I mean, you like the other mess of mine better? That's fine.
Speaker 1:No. No.
Speaker 2:I and at the same time, I have had the feeling that I should get into another one with a different set of people, different set of issues, different set of problems.
Speaker 1:No. I I think it's I think it is important to have multiple masterminds. And I, you know, I ask different questions to to the different groups. You know, I I I think it's I think it is important to kind of mix it up and then and then also have, like, different advisers too. Like, you know, the guy Clint that I share the office with, he he and I go out to a regular lunch just to talk, you know, each other's business.
Speaker 1:So I I think it is good to mix it up. Let's talk a little bit about gloves off. Yes. It's great
Speaker 2:great development.
Speaker 1:So this is a like a new development in our in our group, which has been around a year, but now we know each other pretty well now. We're pretty open with each other, and that means we are willing to, you know, beat the shit out of each other sometimes. So gloves off is is kind of a new initiative started by Russell. Right? I think he brought it brought it to the table.
Speaker 2:Yep. Leave it to the New Yorker. I wanna get a little rougher Exactly. More direct. I mean, that's
Speaker 1:there's nothing really more to it than that. It's like, look. Look, we're calling this new thing called gloves off. One person per week kind of volunteers themselves to to step into the ring and present their thing, whatever they're working on, whatever whatever their challenge is, and everyone else just has to be like hypercritical about it. And not critical for the sake of being critical, just just really just speaking your mind.
Speaker 1:Saying the things that we wouldn't normally Yes.
Speaker 2:So You
Speaker 1:know, just don't hold back.
Speaker 2:The first thing that you said is really important. We've been doing it for a while. We know each other and we know that we care about one another one another and want each other to succeed. So with that being off the table, it's much easier to be honest and more direct. Right?
Speaker 2:There's no there's there's no more, you know, positioning and, you know, trying to come off a certain way. At this point, we're just ourselves. So I think that's important to establish that level of trust. Now, the gloves off thing, it's it's not really that different from what we've been doing, but it's almost like we just acknowledged that we are friends now and we tend to drift toward not wanting to say things that aren't nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And and I think it's also like remembering why we're here. Why are we taking time out of our busy schedules to meet every Friday in the middle of a workday? We're not doing it just to hang out. We're we are doing it to help each other move forward in our business.
Speaker 1:So I think gloves off is a way to really squeeze more value out of these conversations.
Speaker 2:Yes. And and what I like about it is that it's taken on a strategic nature. So we don't come in and say, you know, this is how I'm trying to launch this campaign. What do you guys think? It's really about, here's my overall strategy for how I'm approaching my business issues and my life and my finances and this is what I'm thinking over the next few months.
Speaker 2:And then you get criticism on that, that's like life advice. That is it's much more serious and it might be a little harder to take, but because of what we've established, it's it's I think it's phenomenally healthy. I mean, had I had a really difficult time talking about mine because I have Cardhook, which is, you know, it's got momentum. I'm signing, paying clients every every month and it's going in a good direction. But over the past few months, have started to split my time with consulting and info products because I felt like that's what I need to do.
Speaker 2:I got a wife and two kids and CardHook is not gonna get to a place that's making $10.20 grand a month for a while. So I can't just keep going in that direction. Right? So this is like, this is like strategic Right. Real life issues.
Speaker 2:And to come to that with that to the table and have people, you know, point fingers and and opinions about that, maybe it's difficult, but it's really important and really helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And and you and I mean, that's what we're here for is we're here to to be the, you know, play devil's advocate a little bit. Even if I understand where you're coming from, like, you know, because I I I might lay out my my plans or my strategy to my wife, but she's just gonna be supportive. You know. Right.
Speaker 2:She's not gonna push back
Speaker 1:for it. But she, you know, and yeah, I mean, when I went, when I when I did the gloves off, man, that was the most valuable meeting that I had for sure. And and it's, you know, in in the year that we've been together, I mean, I I came away with, like, two very concrete, tactical things that I have now put on my calendar to change, you know, thanks to that meeting. Like, these are things that I actually wasn't even considering before, you know, like the the copy on the site is not angled the right way, you know, and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Right. Matt Matt kinda just threw the sledgehammer at you on that and that that's all it takes.
Speaker 1:Had a great point too. I forgot how you put it. It was like finesse when you need
Speaker 2:Right. You were right. You were you were tinkering with
Speaker 1:Like the like the marketing funnel. And and and you're like, you know, you're you're doing too much of of the tweaking and finessing, and it needs to be, you know, just dump more into the funnel or something like that.
Speaker 2:Right. It was more right. That right. Right. Because you you and that's what happens with people.
Speaker 2:You focus on what you do during the day and what you like to do. Yep. And and right. You've built out this beautiful funnel with all these processes and it's amazing, but the truth is, at least from the outside, it just appeared to me, okay, that's good enough. Stop worrying about that.
Speaker 2:That is good enough. Now start using the sledgehammer, getting people into the top of the funnel. Yeah. Yeah. And it was the same kind of thing that Matt gave you on the copy and positioning where that's all it takes.
Speaker 2:Someone from the outside just hitting you on the forehead and you kind of admitting, okay, you have a point and I've kind of been acknowledging that myself but didn't wanna face it and this just just helps you face it.
Speaker 1:That's what it's all about. Let's talk a little bit about rules for the Mastermind Group, and I don't know if we've really discussed these so much in our group, but I think it's important to, I think we just acknowledge that, you know, it's implied a little bit, but so, as you're starting up a new mastermind group, we talked a little bit about attendance. I think it's important that, you know, everybody agrees that, like, this is the time every week or every two weeks whenever whenever it is, it's a repeating event in the calendar, you always show up. I mean, I've even heard of you know, we don't do this, but I've heard of other groups even, charging a $50 penalty fee every time you don't show up. Yep.
Speaker 1:Or or, like, if you don't show up, like, two weeks in a row, you're you're booted, you know. That's a little that's a little hardcore, I think, but, you know, so just throwing that out there. The the other idea here as far as like a rule is is privacy. Because what we share in the mastermind group is it's intended to be private and there are definitely things that I don't share publicly that I've stated in the mastermind group. So it's it's on the understanding that like, you know, we're not gonna be talking about this outside.
Speaker 2:Right. And I think that just takes time to build up build up some trust. It's the same thing with rules. The best time to establish rules is upfront at the beginning and say, look, if you miss three in a row, then, you know, you're put on probation. If you miss another one within a month, you get booted.
Speaker 2:It's easy to talk about the upfront before it starts to happen. Yeah. Because then you become friends and then rules kinda go out the window, which is what which has happened to to our situation. It's just that for us the the social pressure of being there and liking the other people has taken over. But I can see how that's that's the difficult part of going from you don't really know these people, you're just getting started, you don't really trust them the same way that you do your close friends, and you have to kinda get through that to the other side where it's, you know, I look forward to Friday and I look forward to hearing from you guys and I trust you and I, you know, I trust that you're keeping things private that I'm talking about, but you get you have to get there.
Speaker 2:It doesn't just happen, you know, out of the
Speaker 1:gate. Yeah. Totally. And so let's let's now talk a little bit about, like, technical tools. Like, what are we actually using for the Mastermind group.
Speaker 1:So we are using Google Plus. I I do that on on both my groups and we have a I guess, what's called a community in Google Plus which you can set to private. So we all have access to this private Google Plus group. Matt starts up a Google plus Hangout every every time we have a call and I really like having that private community on Google plus because that's where we post things in between the meetings, like, you know, not only like, hey, I can't make it this week, but it's also like, hey, I just launched this page. Here's the link.
Speaker 1:Check it out. Give me some feedback or or I had this question, you know, how how does this work or, you know it's great to have, like, a little online community that you can that you can post to.
Speaker 2:Yes. Because during the week, if you want opinion, I I've come to that that Google plus community and asked for help. I mean, I do regularly. I come up across weird situations. I just throw it out there.
Speaker 2:It's like my first line of, you know, people who know what they're talking about that maybe they can help me solve this problem. So Yep. Google Hangouts is is a very strange product. It's amazing once it's up and running. So it it does work and it's stable and we're all over the world and we've got someone in Spain and right.
Speaker 2:I did it when I was in Germany and it works. It can be a bit of a pain, so you kinda have to just get over
Speaker 1:the I mean, still a pain. You know, what I don't know what it is with Google plus. It's it's great when everyone's there and it's working. I think the the UI and and, you know, the big screen and all that, it's awesome when it's working. But just getting on the call, just connecting is like, why does it just not work?
Speaker 1:You know? It's Yeah. It's just really frustrating.
Speaker 2:Yeah. They force they force you to go through their flow. They force you to open up Google Plus and then, you know, go to your contacts and then start a Hangout instead of just Yeah. The waste
Speaker 1:And then it's like it's ringing on my computer, ringing on my iPhone, ringing on my iPad, all like, all at the same time. And it's like, what is going on right now?
Speaker 2:Yes. And and we use the chat window in there
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Effect effectively. So that works. We put links as we're talking. We respond. Sometimes it's distracting.
Speaker 2:We respond over chat while someone's talking.
Speaker 1:I mean, the the chat is awesome, especially our group with like six or seven people. Two people are usually talking, and then you'll you'll have side conversations or chiming in. It's easier to chime in via chat, you know.
Speaker 2:Right. Instead of interrupting someone, you'd throw out one sentence or someone provides the link to what the other person's talking about. And then we use Google Docs alongside it. Yes. And that's our little accountability public forum.
Speaker 2:It just has the date and then each person's name, what they said they wanted to do last week, whether or not they did it, and then, you know, and then today's date with what you plan on doing by the next time we talk, and then that's what we look back on at the beginning of the next meeting.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. Since and and we've again, we we became a little bit loose with that spreadsheet, and then recently, we were like, everyone has to update this. And actually that just reminds me I didn't update mine today. So but it that that has been awesome, you know, just really stating publicly, semi publicly, you know, what is the goal for the next week?
Speaker 1:And then there to me, there's no better feeling than typing in done. You know? You look at the last week, it's like, yeah. I I said I was gonna do that and I fucking did that. You know?
Speaker 2:Yes. I don't I don't get that feeling enough because I'm always, you know, adjusting and moving the goalposts and changing the strategy a little by little, but but it helps me
Speaker 1:But it's a reminder. You know? It's It's
Speaker 2:a reminder. It makes you feel it. It makes you feel the fact that where was my head last week that I said I wanted to launch this? And this week, I have an excuse in my head on why I didn't launch it, you know, and is that excuse valid? Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Did I make the right decision or did I veer off course?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, it's that that's what accountability is all about. And and sure, you know, anyone can just kinda fire up their own spreadsheet and or their own Trello board or whatever you wanna use and have your own little private accountability street sheet, but it is just not the same when you're not sharing it with a group of other people.
Speaker 1:When you when you've gotta show it and, like, show your work, you know, that's that that's what accountability is all about.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's good. At least for most people who aren't, you know, super disciplined completely on their own.
Speaker 1:So so that's that's all I have in in the notes for this episode. I mean, anything else we should kinda touch on here about about mastermind groups?
Speaker 2:I think in general, it's it's hard to overstate how good it is. It's really incredibly useful, incredibly valuable, and fun. It's Yes. It's it's healthy. It's it's so many good things that I would just encourage anyone who's not in a mastermind group to just to just get started.
Speaker 1:Just Totally.
Speaker 2:Just do it. It doesn't have to be this amazing group of people. The truth is you you get amazing together. That's the the whole the whole point.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So So to just get started and then make progress together, and it will help you make progress. It's there there there should be no hesitation on on doing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, I I can't believe that I was in business on my own for, like, six years, and I didn't discover the mastermind group until, like, year five. I I wish I had it so much sooner than I did, you know. I think for a number of those years, didn't even know what a mastermind group was. And then I and then I found out what it was, and then I was like, I gotta join one.
Speaker 2:Yes. Hopefully, this episode does that to to a few people.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Totally. And I I guess the other thing that I would add, and this goes back to, like, the very beginning is, like, where I was at at the time that I joined the group. Everybody else that I know, my my my wife, my family, my friends, know, my my group of friends, like, virtually none of them are business owners. They all kind of work in jobs.
Speaker 1:One or two are kind of doing their own thing a little bit, but, you know, I I just don't have I don't socialize with anyone who who are business owners. So for me, just to be able to meet with, you know, meet regularly with people who who relate to the stuff that I work on, you know. Like, I would go to parties with my friends or or we'd go out to the bar and stuff, and I'd always be eager to be like, hey, man. What are working on right now? And then it's like, you know, like, nobody wants to talk about their job, you know.
Speaker 1:Right. And I'm just thinking like, well, that's all I ever think about.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I experience it. On Fridays, most people are excited, and I'm pissed because I hate Fridays because that means, you know, the week's over and I didn't get everything done that I wanted to, and Mondays I love because the whole week's in front of me. And nobody thinks like that when when they have a job that they don't like. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So yes. And and that whole thing about networking with other business owners, right, I went into the group selfishly for value to get things out of it. And then what it turns into is a lot richer than that and a lot and a lot better mixed in with all the all the value.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Totally. I mean, it's giving advice is as valuable than as it is receiving it, you know. And even just vocal it it helps to it's just like like blogging or teaching, you know, putting your your your stuff out there. It helps you structure the way that you think about and look at things and just, you know, just adds clarity overall.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, just awesome.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Do it. So good talk here today, Jordan. You know, great to talk with you as always, and I I think the audience will will get a lot out of this one.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Happy fourth of July to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You too, sir. So and I'll see you at the next next Mastermind next Friday.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:See you on Friday. Alright.
Speaker 2:Take it easy, Brian.
Speaker 1:Alright. Hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. The show notes for this episode are posted at cashjam.com/30one. Cashjam.com is my site and that's where you'll find all my stuff including my weekly newsletter. So join me there, and I'll see you next time.
Speaker 1:Take care.
![[31] Mastermind Groups. What, Who, How, and Why?](https://img.transistorcdn.com/LDB_Cv9bHAA2vtoSPkZCpkdHPF6fAqfl7PL-PG7_c-M/rs:fill:0:0:1/w:800/h:800/q:60/mb:500000/aHR0cHM6Ly9pbWct/dXBsb2FkLXByb2R1/Y3Rpb24udHJhbnNp/c3Rvci5mbS9jMjkw/MDYxZDQ0MWIxYTUw/NTMzMGI2NTExZWMx/MWQ1Yi5qcGc.webp)