[32] From The Verge to Niche Startups: Dann Berg talks Audience Focus
Hello. Welcome to Bootstrapped Web episode 32. This show is for you, fellow Bootstrapped business owner. You believe that to get to where you're going, you'll have to learn by doing. I'm Brian Castle, and I believe that too.
Speaker 1:So let's do this. Dan Berg joins me on the show today. He is a former editor of The Verge, and, today, he, he's launching a a new startup called Trip Expert, but he also splits his time and and works on his own blog called novicenolonger.com. And that's that's where he kinda teaches, you know, novices when it comes to tech and specifically I iOS app development. So it's it's interesting to hear Dan talk about how he kinda jumps between, you know, working on the a new startup trip expert, which is in a very crowded space.
Speaker 1:I mean, the hotels travel industry, you know, not an easy industry to to break into by any means. But but, know, he also splits his time and and he is very dedicated to doing novice no longer. And so the theme for today and really this week, because I've been writing and thinking a lot about this is audience. Knowing your audience, finding who your target audience truly is, and then really understanding what it is that they want, what it is that they need, their aspirations, and how you can help them get there, whether it's through teaching, podcasting, or delivering a a service or an app. And, you know, Dan has been involved in this quite a bit, you know, in a number of different arenas, you know, from his time working at the verge, a very popular large scale news organization, you know, like tech and web and and app news and and all that.
Speaker 1:Now now that he's on his own, he's got kind of a niche site, you know, where he's working with novice, you know, tech people trying to trying to break into tech for the first time. And so it's it's just interesting how, you know, especially on his site, Novice No Longer, he he's really done a fantastic job of of just really niching down and focusing all of his content, all of his effort on that audience based on what he's learned from them. And, you know, we talked about how he he came to the understanding that it's all about asking the right questions, and that's that's what he's really trying to help his audience do. I mean, he even went to the point of switching his domain name from his own name to novicenolonger.com. So it just goes to show how how focused on his audience he really is, you know, speaking to novices in a number of different different ways.
Speaker 1:So, you know, this theme of understanding your audience, this has really been on my mind lately, and I talked a little bit about this last week in the episode where, you know, you know, thinking about the audience, I mean, I I'm doing a lot of thinking on that on my own for here on my own side and in in this podcast, and I have a general sense of of who my audience is, like who you are listening to this show. You know, I I kind of assume that that you're someone along the same lines as as me, you know, maybe working on a bootstrapped start up, maybe freelancing on the side and trying to make the transition or a similar transition to to the one that I've made over the last few years, you know, moving away from, like, freelance services into doing products. Or or you are still doing, you know, freelance work and trying to grow and scale that up and get more clients, better clients. So I'm that's my sense of the people that I talk to and the people that I email with, and many of you are on my newsletter and we email through that.
Speaker 1:You know? But I'm trying to really nail that down and and get a a very clear sense of of who this general audience is. And and to do that, this week, I actually put out an article talking all about audience research and and doing it in a way that doesn't come off as too kind of data research y, but just still personalized and still trying to get genuine responses from folks, you know, for the goal of just learning, and then that can help us put out better content. So what I've done is I I wrote an article all about that, but I've also put out a survey. And I've I've always been a little bit hesitant to do a survey because I just feel like who wants to fill out a survey, you know, and it's so, you know, I'm not like some big corporate company like, oh, give us your feedback.
Speaker 1:We really appreciate it. I, you know, I I kinda feel it that way when I put out a survey. But what I've done is I I made it as short as I possibly can, and I I think it should take only less than sixty seconds. So I sent this out to my newsletter this week, but for those of you listening to this podcast, I would really appreciate if you take the time and and check out the survey as well. You can do that by going to castjam.com/survey.
Speaker 1:And, again, you know, I tried to keep it as short as I possibly can. It's really just like three or four questions. You don't even need to answer all of them if you don't want to. But it's it it should take less than sixty seconds. And and the idea is just to understand, you know, who you are.
Speaker 1:Like, are you a freelancer? Are you working on a product? What is your goal for the next year? Are you trying to move from freelance to products or grow? Or where just tell me where you're at.
Speaker 1:Because the more that I understand that, the better the content and more stuff that I can put out that is actually useful to you that you that you will find value from. Really trying to get a solid understanding of that. That's kind of my focus for the next few months here when it comes to everything that goes on at cash jam dot com. So that's where I'm at. But, again, you know, check that out at castjam.com/survey.
Speaker 1:And I also welcome your feedback as always on this podcast. If you're if you're finding it interesting, if you like tuning in, please go over to iTunes and, you know, leave a five star review and and do you know, leave me your feedback there. I read every single one, and it really does help this podcast kind of gain visibility in the iTunes marketplace. And of course, that's that is so important for for growing this audience. So I appreciate you listening and tuning in.
Speaker 1:I hope you're getting a lot out of it. I really enjoyed these conversations that I'm having with with guests that come on the show. So so yeah. Just really enjoying doing it. With that, let's let's move into my talk today with Dan Burke.
Speaker 1:Enjoy. Hey. So I'm here with Dan Berg, and Dan is involved in quite a few projects and startups and and content sites. But you know what? Let's let Dan kind of introduce himself and tell so Dan, what are you working on these days?
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, you so much for having me on the show. Yeah, that's such a large question for me to answer, I guess. I guess the most exciting thing that I'm working on right now is my startup that I've co founded. We just launched almost exactly a month ago now. It's called Trip Expert.
Speaker 2:So it's like Rotten Tomatoes or Metacritic, but for hotels. So instead of user reviews like TripAdvisor does, we're based on professional reviews. So we've got over 20 sources like Fromer's, Lonely Planet, New York Times, and we compile them all together onto our site to give the trip expert score, and we have booking and all that kind of fun stuff. So that's a blast. I've also got my website that I've been working on for a while called Novice No Longer, where I just try to help people build products and build apps specifically because I also have a couple of apps in the app store.
Speaker 2:Two iOS, one OS X, and another iOS that's still in the works that should be coming out hopefully in the next couple of weeks. And yeah, I used to be a tech journalist before I kind of launched all this entrepreneurial stuff. So I was at The Verge and I was also at Laptop Magazine for a while. So yeah, I've been doing a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1:Wow. Very cool. I mean, that that is quite a bit. I mean, are you sure? Is that it?
Speaker 1:You you working on anything else or what? You got got any free hours in your day or what?
Speaker 2:I think right now that's about it. I've got some other ideas, and it's always so hard for me to, like, shelve ideas. Because I'm like, oh, I wanna work on this, but yeah. As you know, I've got a lot of stuff going on now.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I know to I I very much know how that goes. So yeah. I mean, like, where should we begin? I mean, basically, the theme for across all of this today is, you know, let's talk about audience, just really getting to know who your audience is.
Speaker 1:That's something that I've been giving a lot of thought to, and I think you're you're kind of, like, the perfect guest to to be talking about this because, you know, especially with your work on Novice No Longer, it looks like you've really done a great job of focusing in on who your audience is, their particular goals and aspirations, and how you can teach them and and help them. You've done a great job there. And, of course, this ties into running your start up and, I mean, any kind of start up. Right? You know, you have to deal with your target market and and focus on the audience there.
Speaker 1:And and let's and then later in the interview, let's talk a little bit about your time at The Verge and how understanding the audience, you know, from the editorial standpoint, you know, really ties in, you know, on that level where you're at, like, a a large scale news organization. So so, yeah, let let's kinda let's kinda dive right in. I guess let's start with your startup, Trip Expert, which looks great. Congratulations on the launch. And so it is interesting.
Speaker 1:I like this I like this angle where it's it's not the typical, you know, like hotel reviews. I mean, I know when I search for like a vacation or hotels or something, I'm just always thrown off by all the random reviews that you read. I mean, I I wonder like who are these people? You know? Like, Who goes on there and types all these crazy stories?
Speaker 1:It's hard to make a decision based on that. Is that kind of how you came across this angle for Trip Expert?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's pretty much exactly. And my my co founder Andrew wrote a fantastic piece about the limits of user reviews on sites like TripAdvisor and Yelp, and I can send this to you a little bit later. But basically, we just both were trying to use websites like TripAdvisor to actually plan a trip, and it just it it never really works out. You have to suss through so many different reviews that are all just like garbage, and it just takes a really long time.
Speaker 2:And specifically for hotels and venues too, this is especially a problem for a few different reasons that I think a lot of people know in the back of their mind, but it's really hard to articulate. And the the kind of main points that we have for this is like the people's actual motivations for writing a review. Usually it's only because the review, the experience has been really negative or really positive. But beyond that, especially for hotels, like if somebody is traveling to Paris, they're probably only staying in one hotel. So they don't know what any of the other hotels around them are offering, and using that rating to really compare it to anything else doesn't really work because of that.
Speaker 2:And also just far too often luxury reviews will get unfairly penalized, because of course like value for the money is like an important thing, and if something is way too overpriced, it should definitely get dinged for that. But a lot of times people would just be like, this is way too overpriced, we want to pay nothing for this kind of luxury service. A lot of times if a luxury hotel has a nightclub or some other exclusive venue, people that haven't stayed at the hotel, but tried to get in the nightclub and failed will write just like a one star review. And just more and more just across the board, we're seeing all of these nice places get penalized, and if you're trying to find the best hotel, like you're going on a honeymoon, or you're an executive planning a business trip, or at times that you want the best, there's just no source for that, that's why we launched Trip Expert.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, again, it looks great, and what I'm wondering here is, you know, from a I I mean, I I come from, like, the bootstrapping standpoint. And I and I look at, you know, something like the hotel space, you know, in terms of, like, a directory site for hotels and, you know, booking hotels. And I think about, like, hotels.com and Expedia and and, you know, TripAdvisor and, you know, all the rest of them. And, like, these days, I'm seeing, like, more and more TV commercials for this kind of stuff. I mean, how what led you into this space?
Speaker 1:It seems pretty crowded with a lot of very big players. Right? So, like, what was what's kind of like the angle as you as you guys are newly launched and how do you see yourself kind of gaining traction?
Speaker 2:I mean we found we launched because we had the need, and we wanted this product ourselves, and just to be able to say what is the best, because right now you have all these different travel sites, but they're all using the same just corrupted data to really drive the rankings and reviews, things like that. Like if you go to New York on TripAdvisor and find the very top hotel, it's something called the Chelsea Pines Inn, which I live here and I've never heard of that before. Like I'm sure it's a nice hotel, but ours is the Crosby, which is a really well known hotel. And just we wanted to make the the industry a better place. So it's not just our website that we have that people can go on and research and book.
Speaker 2:We've also got an API that other hotel search engines such as those that you listed can integrate and use the Trip Expert score to improve their own search ranking algorithms. So like if you want to incorporate the Trip Expert store to display that next to a hotel name, or use a specific number that we have in order to improve your ranking algorithm, we offer that. And we're doing this just because it it was so hard for us to do research for a hotel that we wanted to stay here, to find valid information. And we just wanted to create it, and so we did.
Speaker 1:Interesting. Yeah. And so, I mean, it sounds like, you know, quite the operation that you have going on here. Like, how do you get the, you know, the the reviews? Like, it is it kind of like licensing deals with, you know, like, fromers and and and, like, other sources like that?
Speaker 2:No. Everything that we're using on the website is within fair use. So we're just using small snippets of actual reviews, then linking to the full text. Okay. So just like you would see on a Rotten Tomatoes that gives a little snippet, and then it links to the full review, that's exactly what we're doing.
Speaker 2:And then, on top of that, we have an algorithm that basically uses each different expert reviewers specific like ranking system to pull all that in and spit out the trip expert score. And so trip expert scores need to be, they're between one and a 100, but they need to be above 60 in order to even be listed on our site. So we're not about doing every single hotel in the world, we're talking about creating a site for people that want the best, the expert reviewed sites, and kind of ranking where that is.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. So so again, like thinking about audience here, as a newly launched app and service and web property trip expert, how do you go about thinking about who your audience is, who your target market is? So is your target market the the actual consumers for hotels, or is it kind of working with these bigger players and getting them integrated with your API and and just kind of putting out information about hotels?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd say it's twofold. I mean, we definitely want to provide the service to travelers, and within that space, what we're seeing is that we're coming up for people that are trying, that are like researching destinations or researching trips. So if somebody is going to a specific city, then they're being able to somehow find trip expert and we're working on ways to obviously improve that. But a lot of the traffic that we're getting now is people researching different destinations and finding the different hotels that they're doing. But of course, I mean, in order to expand and make the industry better, and just to improve our reach, partnering with other kind of sites, and as well as hotels too, because hotels have been very interested in this, because the pains of user reviews hurt hotels because the hotels know like we're a good hotel.
Speaker 2:We're providing good service. Most of our customers like us, but then they go to sites like TripAdvisor and they're just completely demolished on there. It's a a bunch of different angles. We're still working on obviously finding exactly who it is, and and I think that's a continuous process with any sort of company or startup. But, yeah, it it's it's amazing trying to like be that resource for people that are planning their trips.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Interesting. And so how what are kinda, like, the steps that you took, you know, as you led up to launch and now that you're, you know, a month post launch, like, what what are kind of, like, key steps that you're doing to gain that, like, very first traction in in this space?
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course. So we're we're just definitely getting our roots into SEO stuff. So I knew that from day one, we built the entire site with, like SEO best practices, just so that like all of the links, all the everything are going to be easily readable. We're using like the Google, the metadata, so you can see little star ratings in the actual search results for the individual hotels and things. On top of that, I mean just the big push for getting press and trying to get the word out about our website, and yeah, just reaching out to people individually, talking to traveler or the bloggers in the travel space, Individual people, the hotel industry has definitely been interested in what we're doing.
Speaker 2:We posted a show HN on Hacker News that did really well, and that got a lot of great feedback that we immediately took and like implemented. So it's just been a constant hustle. Like, this, the podcast, and everything else that I'm doing is all part of it.
Speaker 1:So the podcast on Novice No Longer do you mean? Or or is there a separate podcast
Speaker 2:for Like appearing on yours.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:Others, and just talking about it and sharing everything that I know because the the thing that I've learned, especially from novice no longer and everything else is that I I like to share everything that I know and everything that I'm doing. And I I love when I appreciate when other people do that, and I listen to podcasts about people like that. And I I find that that's just the best way to go about things. So, yeah, I I love talking about this and sharing it.
Speaker 1:Very cool. So, I mean, how let's let's kinda transition into that. Right? So how do you you're running this startup, Trip Expert, which, again, you know, we're in the hotel space trying to, you know, gain traction, and that to me sounds like even more than a full time job. Right?
Speaker 1:Like
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I'm sure you're spending way more than forty hours a week, you know, in all of this. So, like, how do you find the time to to run this separate site, Nava is no longer, and it and not only run it, I mean, it's not like you're just kinda maintaining it. You're you're putting out content, you've got a podcast on there, you've got ebooks, I mean so how do you do it?
Speaker 2:Well, I I mean, it takes very careful planning. I actually just wrote about this today, and with Novice no longer as of right now, I have a pretty good idea of specifically how long certain tasks and how much maintenance how long tasks are going to take me, and what sort of maintenance it's going to need. And I try to batch as many things as possible. So, I know that recording and releasing like the one hour podcast takes me approximately two and a half hours of work for the recording, and then the editing, and then writing the post, and then getting that published is about two and a half hours. I try also alternately to write an actual post each week as well, as well as a unique email newsletter.
Speaker 2:So I usually spend about an hour and a half to two hours on each of those. And so I'm just able to kind of plan my week out knowing that that's gonna be time that I need to spend. I wrote and launched the ebook before I really got started with Trip Expert, and the cool thing about things like ebooks and other sort of kind of like content that you're creating is that once you do it once, you have that. Then And all you have to do is promote it. Yep.
Speaker 2:And so I try to work on building those assets as much as possible. Like right now I'm actually working on a course, an online course for Novice No Longer, and I'll try to kind of establish the action steps that I need in order to do it, like this specific video I need to have done, and like have that on a to do list, and then try to just constantly be making a little bit of progress. So it might be like forty five minutes here when I'm actually like taking a break from emailing people. But once I spend that forty five minutes doing it, that's a check mark off the list. I'm closer to having that project completed.
Speaker 2:And just kind of planning your day like that and breaking it into like small actionable tasks that can be done in one sitting is the only way I can get anything done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. And you know, I I can kind of relate to this because I am running, you know, my my I guess, it's still a start up even though we've been around for, like, three years. But, you know, running, like, Restaurant Engine for you know, basically, the way that I do that is I'm running Restaurant Engine, then I I'm also doing this podcast and my blog and and doing a lot of writing and courses there as well. The way that I've been doing it lately is Monday through Thursday is completely dedicated to Restaurant Engine. And then Fridays are kind of like my day to work on on casham.com, and that's like writing blog posts.
Speaker 1:That's you know, I always record this podcast on Fridays. And, you know, that also might spill into the weekend where I I like to work on a on a new blog post over the weekend and and try to, you know, get the newsletter scheduled out for Monday. But by the time I'm back to work on Monday, it's it's back to work on on the business side. I mean, do you split up the week that day that that way in in terms of, like, days, or are you kinda, like, jumping back and forth?
Speaker 2:I need to do that. I really do. Like, that's a more advanced version of what I'm doing right now. I mean, I have Tuesdays that I reserve for recording podcasts, and that's about it in terms of like reserved days. Other days I just look at like what needs to be done, and then I'll work on that specifically, because I also do some freelance writing too, and I'll pick up assignments for my two biggest freelance clients are Laptop Magazine still, and Tech Radar, and so I'll pick up things there, and it's hard to be like, what I'm excited for working on all this is to like find an area that kind of grows large enough to take up more of my attention.
Speaker 2:Cause right now I'm I'm split on a lot of different things, and I'm excited for that not necessarily to be the case. Cause as it is right now, it's it would be kind of hard for me to split up my time like that, because I I do feel like torn all over the place, but
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, it is an interesting kind of give and take. Know, that that's something that I've dealt with for a while, especially last year. I kind of took on all these different projects. Aside from the podcast and the blog and everything, I was in it.
Speaker 1:I was involved in, like, two and sometimes three actual startups at the same time. And and I kinda had the same thinking. It was like, you know what? Let's let's kinda dive into a whole bunch of things and see what sticks, see see which one starts to grow, and then kinda go with that. But I for me, it didn't end so well.
Speaker 1:I I ended up having to, you know, back out of a lot of stuff and just focus on one company and then keep the content stuff going on the side. And once I did that, I really noticed that my my primary focus, restaurant engine, really did start to grow. Mhmm. But, know, I I always like you, I I always need to have that, you know, like, the personal content site out there, you know, doing the the writing and and blogging blogging stuff. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But, you know, what I really what I'm really impressed by with your site, Novice No Longer, is how focused the topic area is in in the audience. So how did you kind of come to this idea of of Novice No Longer and just the whole angle of of the site and and how you gear all the content towards that? How did you, like, get to that?
Speaker 2:Well, it it actually it just kind of happened. I I kind of fell into finding my audience. And this is actually my second kind of personal site. This is more of like the novice no longer brand. Before I had this, I had a website that was simply called iamdan.com, and I spelled my name with two n's.
Speaker 2:So iamdan with two n's dot com, and I I would just write just personal opinions on things, stuff like that, and at the time I released my very first iPhone app without learning how to code or do anything, I kind of like, I tried to learn how to code and then I failed at that, but I still wanted to release the app idea that I had, so I did all of the work in terms of planning it, and then outsourced the development, and released an application. And then I wrote a blog basically detailing my entire experience, and published that on iamdan.com. And that actually got quite a bit of attention and a lot of traffic, and people kept asking me about it. And so I shortly after that I discovered this website called skillshare.com, and at the time, it's completely different now, but at the time it was a marketplace for local classes. So anybody could teach a class or anybody could take a class.
Speaker 2:So I developed just a local class here in New York City, teaching people my process for how I built my iPhone app. And I taught that for about two years, including after Skillshare left, moved over to Eventbrite and kind of promoted it all myself, and yeah, I was doing that throughout the entire time that I was working as a tech journalist. And when I decided to leave the verge, it it just kind of grew into that that class grew into novice no longer because I already had this audience. I already had this this classes and lessons that I was teaching. Already, all of this knowledge and experience that I had had that I'm just I I grew into Novice No Longer and where it is.
Speaker 1:Very cool. Yeah. I mean, that that's pretty impressive, you know. And I I I feel like I'm kind of in that transition phase where I've been kinda doing the personal I I wouldn't really call it a personal blog because I I write a lot about, you know, bootstrapping business and stuff, but it's I'm still kinda working to find that targeted audience and general theme and and you know? So yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's just really kind of impressive, you know, what you've done there. And so novice no longer, is that is the concept specifically about iPhone apps now, or is it kind of novice with everything tech? Or or or, like, what's the or or is it is it typically, like, beginner type people in your audience here, or is it people who are, like, specifically getting into iPhone or, like iOS development kind
Speaker 2:of stuff? That's a really good question. When I first started out, I was focusing on the iPhone, because that's really where my experience is. But when I picked out the name Novice No Longer and the brand, I purposely chose Novice No Longer because I wanted to be able to grow that and really become the resource for anybody who is a novice. And I have a very specific definition for somebody who is a novice.
Speaker 2:And I consider somebody a novice if you don't know enough to even ask questions to know more. Because when you're learning a new task, everybody's like, ask questions, ask questions, ask questions. But a lot of times, you don't even, you don't know what questions to ask. You're not at that stage. You're just like, iPhone app, what is the first step?
Speaker 2:Like, what do I even need to know to ask questions? And that's really where I aim to get people passed. So, the podcast is more of like, I speak to a lot of developers and designers, things like that, but also just entrepreneurs, and people that have like built things, and really ask them like where they got to where they are. And I try to teach like those very first things. Like I had an episode with a lawyer, and basically like law is something that I personally like knew nothing about.
Speaker 2:And like within the the little conversation or little post that I'm doing, like you got, okay, well I know what questions to ask now. And and that's really what I aim to do with this. So, I I guess the main focus right now is on iPhone apps because that's where my experience is, even though I don't know how to code, I have those. But it's really all about getting out of that novice stage for wherever you want to go or do.
Speaker 1:I really like that angle of of look it's it's not even so much about, you know, learning the the right lessons or or whatnot. It's really about asking the right questions and learning which questions to ask. I I really like that that idea. And I think that continues on even when you're no longer a novice. You know, you still have to figure out which questions to ask and and the sequence of things to learn.
Speaker 1:And yeah. So I I think that's just awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's funny because a lot of people will find like a skill or a task and they're like, okay, I'm gonna do this and I wanna become an expert. But I would say that it's even more valuable to simply become an expert in asking experts the right questions. So, if you want to get into a specific field or you want to know more about a specific topic, just if you know how to identify an expert in that field and ask them the right questions, you're gonna get all of the benefits of their work and their knowledge without the years and years of study that they've had to get to where they are. And and I think that's a really important skill to have especially for people that are building products is being able to identify who has the right answer, asking them them the right question, and then trusting that.
Speaker 2:Being like, okay, well this is what this person would do. They're smart. I respect them. That's good.
Speaker 1:Right. And and so how do you get feedback from from this audience? Like, how do you learn how do you how do you know the questions that they are asking, you know, in order to give them the the right kind of, like, you know, teaching materials and and, you know, just content? How do you know which questions to answer in in the content that you put out?
Speaker 2:Well, a lot of it I know what questions are asking because they're they're topics that I don't know about, and so I'm just kind of asking what questions that I have. But I guess the way that I most interact with my readers and listeners is through the weekly newsletter that I have, and through Twitter. Because people respond to my newsletter, and I actually really love that. Didn't expect as many people to actually like respond to the emails and talk to me and share their stuff, but it's fantastic and I've gotten into fantastic conversations like that. And just through Twitter, people tweeting at me saying specific posts that they liked or appreciated is really how I I help aim and figure out what future content to create based on what people are responding to and what people are finding helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. You know, in in my newsletter, what I do is one day after somebody joins my newsletter, they get a a really short email from me. It just says, you know, hey. You know, what are you working on right now, and what is your biggest challenge? And that's been going for about a year now, and it's it's been amazing to see some of these responses that come through.
Speaker 1:And and then I get into these email exchanges with them and it's just really fun to kinda learn and and actually get to know, you know, individual subscribers on on the list and then you start to see the trends and patterns across that. Mhmm. So when when you're interacting on your newsletter, like, how does that work? Is it people are responding to your kind of weekly articles that you're putting out, or do you have, like, other, like, automated stuff? Or what kind of goes into your newsletter?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well in the very, just like you, in the very first email that people get, I ask them what is the one thing, or what is the biggest thing preventing them from creating an app today? And so I get a lot of fantastic feedback from that. It's also from people just responding to my email newsletter, because like I said, this really started as a class, the local class. And so a lot of my email subscribers I've known for years, and I originally knew them when I was teaching the class, and then they probably didn't hear from me for like a year or so, and then I started up the newsletter. And I would say a vast majority of them have all stuck around for the newsletter and getting the blasts, and a lot of those people are are active in in participating in the conversation.
Speaker 2:They'll they'll keep me updated when they're launching whatever apps or projects that they're doing, ask advice, and I'm always happy to like guide them, and yeah, it's it's pretty fantastic. So I I have a special relationship with those readers and listeners that I met in person and taught in my class, and and I think because of that, I I have a lot of a a good amount of interaction with the people that are on the newsletter.
Speaker 1:Very cool. Yeah. I mean, it it really is just awesome to get that kind of feedback and then follow-up questions and, you know, from from your audience because it it kinda let it kinda just reminds you that what you're doing, all this extra time that you're putting into the site really is is valuable to someone. You know, just just getting that feedback is so important. And so in terms of kind of like monetization on Novice No Longer, I see you do a little bit of affiliate affiliate links and and whatnot.
Speaker 1:I mean, do you have kind of like premium courses and and books as well, or how does that work?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, as of right now, the website doesn't have a lot of monetization things. I'm kind of just building up content and everything. I'm working on a premium course right now of I have some sponsors for the podcast sometimes, affiliate links like you said, but I I always tell people that I have those affiliate links, and I'm thinking about bringing back the local class as well, because I was just approached by a venue that wants to host it. Mean, that's where it is right now, but there are, man, there's three course ideas that I have in my head that I just need to actually sit down and do eventually, but as of right now, I mean, my main focus is Trip Expert and the startup, so Novice no longer hasn't been getting quite the attention that I do to kind of build those more premium classes and content because when I release them, I want them to be like real premium, really good quality stuff.
Speaker 2:So I'm waiting till I actually have the the the time and ability to focus on it before making that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Absolutely. And you know, like, you you mentioned that you have like three different course ideas there. And I I've had a couple of ideas for a course or potentially, you know, doing another book on on my site, and I kinda I was about to go down that road, and then I I kinda hit the brakes on that a little bit because I I wanted to spend the next few months doing more of this audience research and get and getting to know exactly who they are and exactly what they want to learn. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And, I mean, do you go through that at all? Like, as as you consider these courses, before you get too deep into spending the time, you know, figuring out what what is that topic that really resonates most with your audience? Are are you going through any kind of process with that?
Speaker 2:I mean, the biggest process I I looked into having a topic that people were interested in, and teaching that class and having that. And as of right now, I I get people that are asking me, waiting for either a class or a book to come out on getting an app in the app store. The class was called the non programmer's guide to getting an app in the app store. And so I get feedback all the time from being, from people being like, hey, when is this coming out? Because I've hinted and alluded to it for a while.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and I mean, the best way to do it is to create landing pages. So that was one of the courses that I have and and making. The other one is turning emails into press. So basically like how to pitch journalists to get press, and I created a landing page for that to to gauge the interest, and I got quite a few sign ups for it. I was surprised at actually the conversion rate of that.
Speaker 2:So that that's another one that's on my list of things to actually create. But I think that putting up that landing page and kind of gauging how much traffic it gets, and then how much of that traffic is converting into newsletter sign ups or or Aweber or whatever service you use, sign ups, is a fantastic way to really gauge the interest and how much people are interested in a topic that you're looking to teach.
Speaker 1:Very cool. And actually, you know, that is something that I wanted to kind of ask you about. So, know, so we're gonna kinda switch gears here now, is press. And so, looping back to your startup, Trip Expert, you guys are just getting getting started and getting launched. So obviously, especially this kind of space, the hotels, travel space, I'm sure press plays a plays a big role in in getting the word out.
Speaker 1:Right? And and you have this experience working in in in the industry, know, working for places like The Verge and and other kind of news organizations. So how do you go about getting press? I mean, you I'm sure you have some kind of tricks of the trade. Right?
Speaker 1:Like how so how do you get the attention of of of like high profile sites?
Speaker 2:Well, there's a really interesting thing that I discovered both from my experience. I was the reviews editor there, so I did a lot of the the phone, laptop, those kind of reviews and and dealt with product pitches a lot. And I found that there's actually a big difference between pitching a product and pitching an actual website or a new startup, a service like that, because with products it's actually a lot easier because you have an actual product. You can send somebody an app, or you can send them an electronic gadget and have them actually play with it, that kind of thing, review it, look at it. Whereas something like a startup, like, what is it the the super high percentage of startups that fail?
Speaker 2:Nobody wants to like write about some unproven something or other. So it's actually a lot harder to get the press, but Sure. I mean, the the method is is still the same no matter what you're doing, and I the the biggest bane of any like writer, reporter's existence is just the chain email that goes out. And so you want to make sure that you're personalizing it. The best way to do it is to first create like your hit list, which is like all of the publications that you really want to be published in, and that you think would be a good fit.
Speaker 2:And you should organize those by like how impactful getting press there would be. Like getting written about in TechCrunch is gonna be a lot more valuable than getting written about in like a small niche blog. However, you can use those smaller niche blogs to kind of build up to the next tier blogs to the next tier blogs and kind of build your own trend in order to get the coverage there. But kind of establishing those places where you want to get coverage, and then going down and narrowing down to the individual writers and reporters who write for those places. And kinda see what else they're writing, look at their Lem on Twitter, get to know them, and yeah, when you're sending out the email, do it informally.
Speaker 2:The best way to think about kind of sharing your product or website or and pitching these people is that the the reporters are writing about these topics because they're genuinely interested in it. And what you have is something new that's exciting that you want to share with somebody who's interested in exactly what you're doing. So if you kind of tailor these pitch emails specifically to who you're writing to based on their interests, and think about it as sharing something cool with somebody who likes something cool, then you'll have a much higher kind of response rate and interaction with them rather than like sending out a generic press release.
Speaker 1:Right. Right. I mean, do you for a startup, I understand, you know, electronics and and even like apps, you know, like iOS apps and whatnot, it's it's really more about like, know, can you review this? And these are kind of like the features and benefits and and whatnot. But like for a startup or new company or new brand, I mean, there also kinda needs to be a story.
Speaker 1:Right? Like, it has to be newsworthy to a certain extent. I mean, would you agree with I guess it kind of depends on the publication and the type of stuff that they do, but
Speaker 2:No, I 100 agree with that. I think one of the biggest problems that people have when they're emailing reporters is they're just saying, Hey, we exist. And you simply existing is not news. Like, you launching, that could be news. You gaining your millionth user, that could be news.
Speaker 2:You partnering with this other company, that's news. All of these little kind of like events, those are all what's news and that's when you want to be sending up emails and pitching people. Because if you're just like, hey, I saw that you wrote about this and we do something similar, look, you're never going to get any response because you simply existing is not news. So yeah, 100%. You need to be able to establish what is news.
Speaker 2:So if you're like, Hey, I see you wrote about this. We also do this and we just got our one millionth customer or whatever your event is. That's where they're like, okay, this is interesting. Or if you're doing something different that hasn't been done before that is getting a specific response or reaction from whoever. Like you should definitely be looking at your your startup in terms of what it is doing and the response that it is getting, and that's what you need to be sharing with people.
Speaker 2:I mean, don't pitch them stories because anybody like the larger tier blogs, especially anybody that's a serious reporter is gonna be like, don't do my job for me, like they're
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But you definitely have in mind, like, what you are doing so that they know it's just like not like, hey, I exist. You write about me.
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah. Mean, a few kind of interesting points or or like a main headline point. Not not writing the headline, but something that can be built into some kind of story. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Very cool. So okay. So I let's let's go into, you know, your days working at The Verge a little bit and kinda get a sense of of what what that's like. And so you were in charge of, like, editorial reviews for for products. Is that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.
Speaker 1:Mean, I've got a site like The Virgin. Like, there is just so much content that that's pushed through every single day. I mean, it's it's like my go to tech blog that I that I definitely read. And, like, every day, you know, what is it? Something like 50 to a 100 and probably way more than that, you know, new stories hitting the homepage.
Speaker 1:I mean, how does an organization process that much content? Like, how do you decide what to publish? You know, what gets priority? What doesn't get published? Like, how does that whole thing operate?
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Well, there there's a few different kind of streams that are going on with larger websites like that. Like, there is news specifically, so like as news is breaking, people need to be monitoring what's going on, and then writers need to be there to write about that. In addition to that, there are people that are working on individual features. So reporters have their stories that they're researching, doing reporting on and covering that will eventually get published as kind of like report pieces.
Speaker 2:There are reviews that are going on, so you have a team of people like paying attention to all the new products that are coming out, organizing that whole thing and writing about that. And so there's just different tiers and different people that are focused on different areas in order to make sure that the content that's being written is interesting, relevant, and is timely, just getting out there.
Speaker 1:So, I mean, a a place like The Verge, obviously, it's mostly about tech and apps and gadgets and and that kind of stuff. How how does that how how do we tie this back into kind of like audience knowing the audience of of that particular site. Like, does that get worked into the editorial decision making, the writing process, the creative process? Like, is there a certain I don't know, the way that you speak to your readers or or the type of language you use, like, is there some kind of like guidelines or like a style guide or anything like that?
Speaker 2:I I mean, they definitely have like style guides or different like standards that they that the writing needs to be. But it's just a lot of things with The Verge and they've built up such a good team that they're able to kind of see whatever is most interesting to them, and that's a lot of times what they write about, like what if you're a reporter there, if you are interested in a specific topic, you have the freedom to be able to research that topic in-depth and create that quality content that's going to be on that specific topic, And they're fortunate enough to have a large enough audience that appreciates that, shares a lot of the same interests as a lot of the people there, and that's really how the website like that grows, because they're creating quality content that is of interest to certain communities. And I mean, they're definitely growing beyond simply tech news, and I I think it's just amazing a lot of the other coverage that they've been doing as well, like, working at The Verge, I've never felt just surrounded by such amazing people with such amazing talent. Like, it's just, it was fantastic to be there.
Speaker 2:And unfortunately, it wasn't the right fit for me. It wasn't exactly like what I wanted to be doing. I wanted to be like building stuff, and working on my own stuff. But it just there are extremely talented and interested in really interesting things, and that that's really how the website grows and how they kind of figure out what content to go on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Totally. And and so, I mean, thinking about this this space, right, like the tech blog, like a large tech blog, like that, I mean, I know that you're you're no longer there and, you know, you're not kind of in it every day anymore, but, like, it it seems like such a competitive space. Right? Like and and there's so much news out there and there's so much competition for eyeballs and clicks and time on-site and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Does any of that, like so, like, the competitive analysis. Right? Like, which headlines are doing well on I don't I don't know. Like, the tech section of Huffington Post, you know, compared to The Verge. Like, is there any kind of or maybe, like, breaking news stories, you know, thinking about, you know, which sites kind of grabbed the the scoop first.
Speaker 1:Does that kind of stuff happen in this world, or or is that really just a figment of my imagination?
Speaker 2:It definitely does. I mean, being first is always valuable for for especially anything on the web, because if you're first, you have the eyeballs first, people are going to come to you and trust you as a source for breaking news. You're going get your roots in the SEO stuff, so that's always a positive. But I mean in terms of like click through rates and numbers and things like that, I I honestly, in terms of The Verge, can't answer that for you, because they purposely kept that separate in terms of editorial is researching topics that they find interesting and compelling, and publishing that without trying to do like link baity stuff, or try to like just only go after traffic, or if we find that a certain article is only doing well, that's what we want to do, because it I feel like that's old the old way of doing like business on the Internet, is trying to get those eyeballs getting as many clicks as you can to try to do ads, and fortunately that that wasn't something that I really had to think about when I was at The Verge, and I think that that's one of the reasons why they create such fantastic content.
Speaker 1:It's true. You know, I I totally agree. And I I've had to kind of tune out of of sites like Huffington Post, and I don't think I ever really got into, like, BuzzFeed or anything like that. But, you know, I look at the verge and and it's just like I it's it's not trying to game me for for to get me to click on things. It's just stuff that I happen to be interested in that, you know, I'm I'm part of that audience.
Speaker 1:So so, yeah, I mean, think it really resonates. I I really like that model, kind of separating the the data traffic money department from the editorial creation stuff. So very cool Yeah.
Speaker 2:One of my favorite applications on my phone, I don't know if you actually use this or I've never actually met anybody else that did, but the Yahoo News Digest. They just announced it at the big last Yahoo convention, but basically they send you twice a day, once at 8AM and the other at 6PM. They send you the Yahoo News Digest. And in it is between like seven to 10 top headlines for right then at that moment. And then it uses the, I think it was called Sumbly, whatever was created by that 17 year old kid that was bought by Yahoo that was the big news two years ago, to summarize that into like two paragraphs.
Speaker 2:And it's fantastic. They curate it for me, really brief, and I find that The Verge and different sites like that are like similar. Like if I go there, I know that it's gonna be topics that I'm interested in and that I'm gonna want to read that I can just browse through.
Speaker 1:Very cool. Yeah. I I haven't seen that. I'll have to check that out. You know I
Speaker 2:love that app.
Speaker 1:The one that I that I've been using lately is the New York Times app. Like, they just came out with I I think it's called, like, New York Times Now or New York Times Today or something like that. Yeah. And that kind of, you know, does, like, push notifications of just, like, you know, kinda like handpicked curated headlines from the like, I read the New York Times every day, and that and that's, I guess, kind of a way of pushing more of their content to me. But I I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like a bite sized type app within the New York Times. Kinda cool. Mhmm. Awesome. So so yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, you know, I think we covered a lot of ground here and, you know, really interesting to hear how you're jumping, you know, across the these different things from, you know, the trip experts start up and and then, you know, doing your your own thing with novice no longer. Really, really inspiring and awesome stuff. So where can kind of, where can folks reach out to you and say hi?
Speaker 2:Man, you can do that at lot of places. I mean, Dan,with2n's,@Tripexpert.com. That is me. That's my personal email. You can send that.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's all like one shared inbox, so that's all good. You can find me on Twitter. It is Dan Berg, so d a n n b e r g, and that's me on Twitter, and yeah, novicenolonger.com is the website if you guys wanna check it out.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, thanks Dan for taking the time and this has been great. Thanks.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Thanks for having me. Okay.
Speaker 1:Hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. And the show notes for this episode are posted at cashjam.com/30two. By the way, if you'd like to take, you know, it only takes a minute. I would really appreciate if you'd check out cashjam.com/survey and just answer a couple of questions and let me know about you and where you're at and what you're working on and what you know how I can make the content on this podcast and in my articles and videos even more useful for you. So check that out at castjam.com/survey.
Speaker 1:Thanks for tuning in. I'll see you guys next time.
Creators and Guests
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