Bootstrapped Web

Welcome back everybody. Another episode of Bootstrap Web, myself with Brian. Very special episode today, episode that should not have happened. Started talking privately and very often that just goes right through.

Exactly. We almost drifted into one of the lost episodes. Yes. But we

said, you know what? I think we're I think we're there. I think we can we can hit record now.

Yep. Yep. Cool. Okay. So good to see you.

Yeah. Good to see you. Let's just continue what we've been chatting about here.

A little context. You were at Cabo last week at Cabo Press. I have been deep into like this content rollout with PR. I had an interview with the journalist today, which is a new experience for me. And what we're talking about now is we're talking about marketing.

It's kind of interesting because I think both of us are in this like go to market, mindset, probably approaching it a little bit differently. Of course, our businesses are very different now, but

similar stage, right?

Similar stage. Yeah, exactly.

The ball rolling first few times down the hill.

Yeah. And like for me, I did come just come back from Cabo and two weeks before that I was in Colorado. So I had those trips to really step away and part relaxation part, really think about business, talk about business with a lot of, really smart friends, a lot of good feedback plus, you know, wrapped up, the audience ops deal. Transition has been surprisingly simple and very almost zero of my time, which is pretty amazing.

There's something very nice about that type of a transaction followed right, right after that with a week in Cabo. That's, that's nice. That worked out nicely. I feel like the Mai Tai's might've tasted a little extra Oh man.

You don't, you don't even know.

You don't even know, dude. And my wife came along, so we hung out on the beach, quite a bit and, it felt fantastic. And man, I know I always say like, boy, I could use a vacation. I don't think I've ever needed a vacation more than I did last week. And it was amazing.

So Chris Lema, thank you, once again. I mean, I'm such a fan of the tiny conferences and man, he does it up right with, the right number of people, the right people invited, the structure, the relaxation, the place, it's awesome. Anyway. So you came back? Yeah, so I came back and you know, my developer has been pushing on stuff while I was away and I'm checking in every day and stuff and we're still shipping some pretty good features.

We just actually relaunched or revamped the interface for recording, new messages in ZipMessage. It's a lot more it's actually better now because you can actually pop out the the camera recording when you're recording your screen and your camera. You can drag it anywhere on the screen. That sounds kinda cool. We're going to launch tag, like tagging your conversations so you can filter them by tag, filter them by who's in the conversation, stuff like that.

That that should be out by the time this episode airs. And then under the hood, I've been doing a lot of, there's a surprising number of dev hours that goes into just tracking data, to see usage on the app, like what's happening in the app and not just traffic, not just conversions, but I mean like we need to have a good handle on how many people are actively creating conversations, how many messages per conversation, what's the average duration of a recording, how many people are using screen versus camera, you know, like

these are internal metrics to understand how you like understand usage as opposed to customer facing analytics for them to understand how they're using it.

Yes. For us. Yeah. Like a custom internal dashboard just for me to see, to get data out of our database of what's happening in the app, you know? And I think that's important for activation of users like in the funnel, but also for us to track costs like, you know, server and processing costs on video stuff.

But marketing is really where I'm trying to turn the focus now. I've been doing some things and we got up to, you know, a few thousand in MRR now and trying to build on that. Like, cause the early traction is really just that it's just that it's just traction from tweets and podcasts and a couple of people sharing it. We haven't gotten the marketing engines turning yet. And I obviously, you know, the longer we wait, the harder it'll be.

So that's where I'm focusing right now.

As we've talked about in previous episodes, it's a bit of a black box these days. It's a bit of a puzzle on looking at like, does marketing mean? What should you go after? What doesn't make sense for this stage? I think I've swallowed the nomenclature from VC world at this point and adopted it where I think of it as go to market more so than marketing because it's really like marketing is one thing that's aimed at getting this initial set of users.

Right. So that's one part of it. What we did this week yesterday and the day before is directly related to how incredibly tired I feel. We've done our quarterly planning and that is like two, four hour meetings, like two days in a row, like basically eight to twelve, eight to twelve. It's a bit exhausting, but it feels great.

It's like this.

I want to hear more about that because like, you're, you're, you have all this structure and you've got a team around you. Your your quarterly planning, sounds amazing. I wanna hear about it. Mine was me sitting, looking at a screen all day yesterday, like, okay, strategy, marketing, like random bullet lists of ideas and strategies that still don't fully make sense, in a, in an execution direction. But I'm trying, I'm trying to get there.

I think I have some direction I'll talk about, but anyway, what did it look like for you? How, how, how did you guys structure it and what'd you talk about?

It's not an easy thing. It's not something that I have a ton of experience with. So the truth is a lot of the structure and experience is coming from Claire, our chief of staff and then bringing in. So this is just the leadership team. So it's the four of us, right?

Myself, Rock, the CTO, Jessica, VP product, and then Claire, chief of staff. So it's the four of us doing this planning. And then we take the results of that planning and we share it in our next all hands. And we also share it in the investor update. So everyone just kind of gets aligned on what we're focusing on, what we're not focusing on.

And then some of the concrete goals that we can use in every week conversations, right? It's Monday. Here are our goals. Here's how we're doing against them. And then basically, what are you doing this week to help achieve the goals?

So it's like this big alignment for the quarter is very, very helpful because it it helps show me what's what's possible and not possible, meaning what do we have capacity for and what do we not have capacity for? And that helps prevent like the CEO bomb of like, here's an idea I have and let me scramble things.

I'll do this. Yep.

Right. Because we've gotten together, we've identified these are the priorities. If you want to push something else, you're going to be pushing aside a priority. Are you sure you want to do that? Cause we all just got together and very carefully agreed that these are the priorities.

So it helps with a lot of these different things. The way it looked for us is we look back at Q3 initiatives. We do what went well, what didn't go well and what did we learn. Then we look at financials and we look at the projections from the last quarterly session and we say, how are we doing? What's cash in the bank?

Is it what we thought it was going to be? Where are expenses? Are they? You know, we don't have revenue to look at right now. So we're looking at this cost structure.

And along with that hiring, have we hired the team that we wanted? Do we have everyone we need? And we kind of leave who we need to hire until after we've settled on what the priorities are. Once you know what the priorities are, then you're asking the person whose team is responsible for that priority or in some combination, then you're saying, do you have what you need in order to accomplish these priorities? And then that person looks at their team and says, well, in order to accomplish that, I need one more product manager and one designer.

And then that's what goes into like the actual projections on like who to hire.

Picking up from the, like the last episode, where you were at with the announcement, like rolling out your personal blog posts that that you wrote, like kind of laying out the the the backstory and the and the and like how how Rally yeah. The argument for for why Rally exists. Where are you at on that? Like, how did that sort of factor into all the all the planning that you guys are doing?

That fits in to one portion of the go to market section of this planning session. Right. It's like it helps to put that in perspective, right? Because there's a lot going on inside the company and inside the product. And then go to market is one element of that.

But you can't you can't just focus on that because there's there's a lot of other things going on that we kind of have to get right.

This is actually like what you just said earlier, like distinguishing between go to market and marketing strategy or like marketing systems. And we were just talking about this offline. I think we're getting into it on air here where it's like, and it's sort of clicking for me now too. It's this idea, especially when you're in the first year, you've got to be doing activities that are introducing the product to, to more and more new people. And in some cases you're talking to people who could share the product, who could integrate with the product, who could use it or recommend it.

At the same time, building up marketing channels that will take a longer period of time to get running, but you have to start those systems now. So thinking about like content and like the website and the positioning and the, that's how I'm starting to think about it, right? Is, is like start putting the systems and the operations in place to, to be producing content and things like that. That's the long term strategy. Just get people and systems running.

But more importantly, early on at this stage, it's go to market, which is talking to to more and more people, introducing it to more and more people, talking about integrations. At some point, like, I'm not doing it soon, but at some point I would be doing like a product hunt launch and that like, put that in like the go to market category, you know?

Yeah, it is whether you're one person or two or 20 or 200 in order to achieve your goals, you almost certainly have to do a combination of development, marketing, product, all these different things. Some people just focus on developing the product and it takes off on its own. That's cool. That's not something that we plan on because that feels very risky. So if you need to balance the development of the product, the customer research, identifying which features are most important, what the roadmap looks like, go to market is part of the organizational priorities.

It's not everything and it can't be left to nothing. So it's, it has to like fit in and it really has to fit in with what the actual goals are. Our goals are different from what they would have been in Cardhook. In Cardhook, the goal was profitability. So how much is in the bank?

How much do we need to grow? What activities do we need to do to grow and spend this much so that we achieve profitability? If that was the goal, then like the priorities get set toward that. And for us now there's like, it feels more complicated is the truth. Feels more complicated because there feels like there is in a much stronger emphasis on organization building and on outside capital.

So those are like these new factors. Like I kind of winged it with Cardhook and it was not the best thing to do. But when it came to organization building, I did my best, but it did require a reset somewhere around halfway. And I kind of ignored. I was like, I don't have the money to deal with this stuff and like worry about titles so much and people's like career advancements.

It was like, man, we got to get profitable or this whole thing ends in. It doesn't matter. But only once we got to that next level, we got profitable and things felt more stable is when I started to invest in the organization side and titles and salaries and just making sure everyone understood where they stood and what their career development, all that stuff. And it feels like now a much healthier approach is to start that now. We're 18 people now.

And I think we'll get to like, don't know, 50 by next That's incredible. I know, I know, I know. The whole thing's weird. Can't believe it. Acknowledge it's weird.

To do a reset sounds like I'm not thinking long term enough.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're building the machine that's ready to go. Yeah, I mean, I think when you are on this path, like the, you know, like the VC path, is long, you know, people think about it like, oh, it's a lot of money so you can move faster. I think in a way it's sort of about moving slower and like building the ship right from, from the outset.

Yeah. In many ways. Yeah. It's almost like building more patiently. It is a crazy mix of like build it patiently, but hurry the hell up or the market will eat you.

So it is a bit strange, but I remember our lead VC, Ron, I built a great relationship with him. And at one point in one of our conversations, he said, Jordan, what I'm really excited about is the company you're going to build, not the product. I think you're to build a great company. And I was like, that helped me in the distinction. Like you're not building a revenue stream, right?

You're not building a feature and you are building a product, but you are building a company and organization that can like bring that product out in the right way. So it hits product market fit and you have the muscle to make sure everyone that needs to know about it knows about it. So let me just finish. What I just did is what I went through the day one. The day two is now looking forward.

Now that we've kind of looked back and figured out like what went right, what didn't go well, we looked at, we looked at finances and how we are in reality compared to what we thought we would be. Then we start to get into what are the key initiatives for each individual area for Q4. Once we have those, we then look at the organizational initiatives and think about what do we need to do to make sure that we're accomplishing these new priorities for each department. And then that leads into what are the key hires? Do we need to make any updates to the organization, into the teams and who's responsible for who?

Who's reporting to who? Do we need this? Do we need that? Right now I kind of have too many people reporting to me and that's like temporary.

Where's most of the action there? Is it is is it most of it? I know you were pretty heavy on, on product people.

Yeah, it was all edge and product for so long. And then in Q3 is when we started ramping up the side of the organization meant for go to market. So that's what Q3.

Sort of like sales type people or like marketing?

There's two hires, two key hires. The first hire was the head of content. So we brought someone on, her name's Sylvia. She is preposterously good and productive. She went on maternity leave two days ago, so she had a baby, which is very exciting.

So we hired her and we knew, okay, you have two months before you go on maternity leave. So what do we need to get done before you go away for a few months? Right. She got to work for real. So she built up the machine.

She got the writers. She got the blog ready. So if you go to rallyon.com now, there's now a blog section. So we got that designed. We all the stuff to be ready for a content calendar and a roadmap.

So what she did is she kicked things off. So we went from zero to now publishing blog posts and she has the content calendar set out through the end of the year and like the plan that goes with it. So we are using Asana for all this planning. So it is what's the post about? Who's the writer?

When is the scheduled conversation to have with me about the content so that the writer has something to kind of work off of? Where are we gonna share it? Who's responsible for sharing? What about the email? What about the social, Twitter, LinkedIn?

So there's there's a full calendar.

I I literally just put up a job posting today for for a content strategist, someone to run the very similar role, I think, for ZipMessage. I don't know how in the weeds you are on that stuff, but like, what what is the general strategy there? Is is most of the content aimed at at ranking for a list of SEO terms? Or is it like quality, like story based, like case studies, a mix of everything? Like what is that sort of looking like?

Yeah, the reason we hired someone so senior was because we needed the strategy. And so what she brought right away is, okay, I'm not about to apply what I did at the last company for you. What we need to do is figure out what are we trying to accomplish? And then the strategy will be based on that. So our situation is we're not going public.

We're not launching the product to the public until Q1. And so what that means is what we should do between now and the end of the year is tell the story, do PR, get into the press and attract people to the brand and the ideas and what we're doing and so on. Like the goal is not to get people to sign up. Right. So we have we have this period of time where we should be investing in PR and content much more than direct response, right?

More than ads or anything like that.

I have like a mix of things that I'm trying to get rolling with ZipMessage and this is this is one of them and and that's content and I'm and I literally just bought a couple of job postings. I I created the job, application. It's it's happening through ZipMessage. I put up like a video, they respond to it and they can submit their applications through zip message and we'll an async, application process.

Your dog fooding opportunities are endless.

It's great. It's great. Kind of a blessing and a curse,

but, yes, yes.

And that's actually what I'm trying to think through. Like, I know that I want to, develop content and I, and I have like thought pieces in mind that I want to do. There, there is definitely SEO opportunity. I've been doing some research on that, in this space, But that's part of what a content strategist should come in and help develop what the strategy, the roadmap should look like.

So what she laid out is like the industry content, SEO, that type of thing. We are going to get to that once we have accomplished what we've set out as required content. So what you'll see over the next few months is you'll see blog posts that they're methodical. Everyone is being published for a very specific reason. So we have three blog posts that make the argument that's directly from me, right?

Blog post two went out last week and then blog post three will go out next week.

So that's like the argument for the company.

Why rally That's right. And it's this funny thing where no one's reading it like in sequential order and like waiting with bated breath all, when's the next installation? But you kind of we felt like we kind of have to do this. This sets out our foundation. When new employees come on board, it's like, read these three blog posts.

This is what we're doing. When investors come across it, when people interact with the company, we put it like in footer links like this. Like we just have to, we have to say this first. Then, then there's the funding announcement that's a little bit off into the future, right later on in the month. And then we are highlighting features, very specific foundational features of the product and why they exist.

And then what that does is that is then useful for the second hire that we made, the biz dev hire. The biz dev hire needs material. He needs stuff to share, to get people excited. And he's going after two parties, agencies, I guess three parties, agencies, apps to integrate with and merchants directly. So whatever we can give him is a priority in Q4.

A demo store that looks beautiful. So when he does demos or when he sends an email link, people can interact with the product in this great setting. He needs a deck. He needs a one pager. He needs a one pager for agencies, one pager for app integration partners, one pager for merchants directly.

And then he needs blog posts. He needs to show this is Rallypay. This is what we do for you so that when you use our checkout, none of your customers ever have to enter their payment info more than once. So every time they come back, they check out with one click instead of having to reenter everything. And like that needs to be like screenshots and gifts and like the argument.

So if someone wants to go deep on it, they really understand the feature.

I mean, is, this is goals, man, because it's like you're the, the strategy that you're, that you're talking about on like methodically having a post about every, probably not every feature, but like what I'm getting at is the the why under underneath each feature. And like the I I think like really these these products, these features do need an argument for why a certain type of person should want to choose this over the alternatives or it matters compared to what you've done in the past. Why should I switch? Did we decide to devote roadmap hours building this? It's that important.

Here, let's tell a story about it.

That's right. So for us, what we just did right there is we just named seven blog posts, right? Three pillar. Then we have, we have Rallypay as a blog post. We have post purchase offers as a blog post.

And then we have Building Headless. That's a blog post. And then we have the funding announcement. That's seven blog posts. If I can do math right there.

So we have, we basically have fourteen weeks of publication. That's like no brainer. You have no choice. This is what's happening. This is what's being scheduled.

Then after that, can get into SEO content and other things.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's awesome. The interesting thing that I'm running into now is that like, we have a handful of features, but it's in my case with ZipMessage, it's different types of users with different use cases for the same features. Like there are like agencies talking to clients.

That's a big one. Like async conversations with clients to cut down on your client calls on your calendar.

If for you it might be use cases It's as a use cases more

than features. That's the big thing. I'm planning like a reorganization of the whole site around this kind of stuff where it's like use cases and then, and then like hiring interviews back and forth, like talking to candidates, talking to team members with updates asynchronously. Like there are all these different reasons why teams are relying on, on, on async and using it in different ways.

Yeah. You could potentially highlight a feature and then several use cases, like within the same post, these blog posts are like, they're useful.

And then there's like, like communities and coaches talking to students and members and stuff like that. But like the thing that I'm trying to also figure out as I'm going to onboard somebody to produce a lot of this content is should it all be written content? Like, I do think that there's value in having like a written blog and written articles and of course we'll have like product pages too, but

yeah, I hear you format.

Well, a lot of it, but also like, some of it I think should come from me certainly like, like the pillar, like argument for, for async in general and zip message and stuff. But like, I'm, I'm trying to, I'm trying to think through the strategy between like podcast content, video content, and taking the ideas that were talked about on a podcast episode and have a writer translate those into a written piece and repurposing things into, into Twitter threads and like how, like fitting it all together. And I'm trying to like kind of map map out the roadmap of what what all that content looks like, you know?

Yeah, I I'd like to think about it as the underlying idea. The underlying argument, the underlying thing that you want to highlight is the thing. And then you're layering on top of that different formats. Right. So a blog post then turns into a tweet thread and a LinkedIn post.

And if you want then a video and like there's different ways to express that idea. But if you use that as the foundation, like what you want to say, because it's important, like I think that'll help guide you on. Okay, format is an element of it, but it's just a different way to express the same idea.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. What else did I have here?

I guess we can talk a little bit more about when we look at go to market, what those different categories are, whereas marketing is one of them and content is like a sub.

I want to actually summarize something you and I were just talking about off air before we started recording today. It kind of clicked for me a little bit because one of the things, you know, so, okay, content. Yeah, I'm going get that up and running with a writer and get that going. That's the long term. That's like just a systems for marketing.

That's not go to market. Go to market needs to be, how do we get more people talking about Zip Message or in your case Rally? And I had been thinking about ways to approach people with large audiences. And I've been trying this in different formats, like inviting people to interviews over zip message, which I've been doing. It's just been okay.

They share it with their audience and I think it's valuable content. I think it needs to be a little bit more direct, like direct sales and what we were just talking about. Like my thought was like, you know, approach people with large audiences, large communities in a bunch of different niche categories where, where zip message is already being used and we just need to reach more of them. And I've struggled with this forever. It's like, how do I approach people and say, Hey, person with large audience, would you talk about my product please to your people?

Like, you know, you can't do that. We all get pitched that every day. Right. And we ignore them. So what I took away from our chat before this was, you know, it's just about reaching out and developing those relationships, asking for feedback.

Hey, you know, I would love to hear what you think about this. I would love to hear what your audience thinks about this because you know, folks like them are already using it. I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Like, just let them know about it. Like whether it's getting on calls, sending them a zip message conversation, showing them the product, and really not asking for anything.

Just do that repeatedly with enough people. You know, because we've already had plenty of customers come to ZipMessage from that people. Someone with a large audience heard about it, they shared it with their audience and they did drive customers. And that was just luck in my initial network. So how do we keep that going?

You know, I need to, I need to 10x that happening over the next few, few months. And I'm trying to figure out, you know.

Yeah. I think one of the keys in our conversation offline was Putting your ego aside. Because we are we are not new in our careers. We've been around the block a few times and it doesn't feel that comfortable to do away with the ego and like just give yourself into this need of, you know what I need to do? I got to go make new friends.

I got to go. I got to go build what I call it. What we call it internally is is alliance building. That's what we call it. And so we look at partners as like an alliance that we're building.

For us, we have like this this force that we're working toward. And so I call it the headless alliance. So this headless e commerce thing that's forming, I like grab everyone who's doing anything in it and I bring them into my social circle and I say, we're building an alliance together. This look, all of us are going to win by doing this together and working with each other and figuring this stuff out. But really it's just making friends in a very humble way and being authentic.

It's a little uncomfortable. And sometimes it's, yeah, like the example I was giving, you know, right now the mode that we're in requires me to be humble, you know, and maybe a card hook when we're flying high and doing 500 ks a month and I got my ego very much intact. I'm kind of like, I don't I got I got I hired people to go talk to agencies, so I'm not really going to do that unless maybe I know the person and I'm super interested or whatever. But now someone signs up through the early access and it's a it's an agency I've never heard of in London. Like I'm getting on a call and I'm making friends and I'm being very genuine and excited and energetic.

When I hang up the phone, I think to myself, that person's going to go like, carry this forward. Like they're going to know about me. They're going to know about Rally, what we're all about. And they're just going to take it with them. And just doing that over and over and over again starts to create this thing out there.

It creates results.

Yeah. Like you're spreading the excitement, right? Like the excitement, like literally just bleeds off of you on the call and they're excited. They talk to their people about it. And that's ultimately what you want in the market is the seeds of that.

And what I think is difficult about it for me, and I'm not a super extroverted person, like in real life, in real world, like I'm pretty quiet, but in our industry, I'm not that quiet. I do have a network and I've got a podcast with you for three years. Right. But I know plenty of people, but it's been natural and organic, not intentional for me to develop relationships with friends. Right?

It's been a couple of large conferences and lots of small tiny conferences and then podcasts and listening to other podcasters and then becoming friends with other podcasters. That's basically and then Twitter. And like that's basically been it. But that's just organic because that's where I hang out with my peers.

Those are your friends.

Yeah. No, totally. But when we're talking about go to market strategy, what I want and what I think a lot of people want is like, what's the button I need to push? Maybe I need to push it repeatedly to make go to market happen. And when I think of relationship building, that's something I sort of just do for fun organically when it happens to pop up, but it doesn't necessarily align at least mentally for me to say like next month I need to 10 X the number of conversations I'm having with random people.

That's just never been something that I do as a work activity, you know what I mean? But that is what it is and that's where those things come from, you know? Yeah,

It might be easier for us because we have like an industry to look at. Like we are an e commerce. And so I have friends and I have acquaintances and I have Twitter friends and other podcasters and like that network that you talked about. Most of those people are not in e commerce. And so there's this whole world to basically get more involved in that's industry specific.

And that's me and Sam right? The biz dev manager. And then we look at that and we say, okay, who are the agencies we want to talk to? Who are the app integration partners we want to talk to? And then who are the merchants we want to talk to?

So right now we're making a big push toward big commerce. So what Sam is doing is finding agencies that focus on big commerce. And it's, you know, there's some, there's some like gut feel to it. And there's also like very straightforward. If you do a Google search for big commerce agency Los Angeles, guess what?

The people who are paying money for clicks, those are agencies that are in the market for big commerce projects. That's who you reach out to and say, we have this great new product for your customers. Do you want to check out what we're seeing? Here's a little bit about us and some like credibility. And he's getting he's getting demos.

He's been doing it for a few days. He's getting demos with agencies because they're like, I want to be first. I want to be early and I want, I see that as something that potentially adds value to my business because I can go show it to my customers and be the person that introduced it to them. So if that's our version of like networking and biz dev in the industry, then that's what it is. So I think you might have a bit of a disadvantage in seeing like your actual social network of people as your targets.

I think, I know that's way too limited. I think there's, there are, well, that's the thing is like there I do need to go to foreign niches and sub sub niches in here. I mean, was just, so randomly through, I think a listener of this podcast like invited me on his podcast this week And as it turns out, like he's speaking to a large audience of, of music and audio producers, audio engineers who do that as a living with clients, right? Like they're, they're, they're dealing with clients and that's one of several. And I thought about this before like that, like honestly, like music studios would be a great fit for Zipps.

Yeah. Like to talk like remotely with their clients, you know, it's stuff like that and other industries that I'm really not connected to that just need to develop relationships with. And the amazing thing is that now there are so many of these communities out there, you know? I mean, there's a Facebook group and a Slack and a private Slack for everything and some of them have like thousands of members, you know? It's recently.

How do you, yeah.

Yeah. How do you just get involved? And it does take a bit of work to identify them and then say, this is the part that feels unnatural.

I think the key is, cause I actually tried to get into this a couple of months ago as a strategy is to actually, and I think I fell down maybe just because I tried it like once or twice and failed, but people talk about like, oh, you got to engage with communities, right? I tried to go into communities and people are asking about like tools for asynchronous video communication, and then I respond with, well, here's a tool for asynchronous video communication. And then the the owner or the manager kicks me out. Like, that's not cool.

Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.

So Can't be self promoted.

So you can't be self promotional. Even when people are asking about your exact tool, you can't be self promotional, whatever.

Yeah. It's tricky.

So, so I think the key is what we're talking about is like, you really need to network with the owner. You know, you gotta, you gotta get in with the, with the people who are running

it and make it authentic, figure out what that process is for you. Your tool is very useful for individual people. So, you know, getting the owner a free account and showing them how to use it. And then if they adopt it, then they will authentically shares. And that that is actually the ultimate goal of that of that engagement.

Do you have a friend, you have a new a new member of the alliance that you're trying to build and that they authentically promote it because they've adopted it for themselves. Like that's that's the dream.

Yeah. So there's all this, all this activity that I need to be working on and, and then still it's like pushing it on the product. And one of the big things there is making it more shareable and viral and, and, there's, there's more, because that happens naturally already. We get a few 100, you know, people coming in and signing up every month, but like they can be prompted to share and sign up a lot more than we already do, you know?

Yeah. And it makes it more useful, which is that's one of the reasons you went into this business, right? It has those Yeah. Yeah. There's also, I recently came across this website that's really good for this stuff.

It's called LinkedIn.

Oh yeah. I think I've heard Yeah.

Haven't used it in like ten years, but evidently Everyone there's a lot of this going on

is talking about that as like the other the other place to post content is like, really? People are reading content on LinkedIn? Guess Oh

my god.

My Sylvia, the head of content was like, Jordan. She was like, I know you like Twitter and that's where your friends are. Guess where all of your customers are. I was like, okay, okay, I get it. And so now I, I do both.

Yes.

That's pretty amazing.

Okay, cool. Look, I got a boogie because I have a call with the VC because that is our other audience.

There you go.

Right? That is part of it for us. So it's alliance building in a different place.

Totally. All right, man. Well, this is a good one. Actually recorded. It was good.

We did. We did. We could have just kept

this entirely private. Hopefully, it's helpful to everyone. More to come. So no podcast next week because you're away or I'm away or something.

Think I think you're away.

Yeah. My dad's in town.

How about that? Oh, there you go. That'd be fun. Yep.

Oh, man. Excited for that. Alright. Cool. Thanks, everyone.

Later, bro. See you, bro.