2021/2022 New Year reflections
Hey, folks. Happy 2022. We're back on Bootstrap Web. Jordan, how's it going, buddy?
Jordan Gal:It's going pretty well. It is really good to be back. I don't know about you, but I really unplugged for two weeks. I did not restart my computer.
Brian Casel:I'm gonna say I am not an unplugger. And and actually, no, I I do, but I I unplug when I go on vacation. You know, the time of year when everyone else is unplugging, that's actually when I ship a lot of work
Jordan Gal:because it's You like to do that?
Brian Casel:Yeah. I mean, you know, we don't we don't do anything for New Year's or anything like that. So Yeah. And we can't snowboard because there's it's just all rain around here. So yeah.
Jordan Gal:Yes. I have a funny snowboarding related story.
Brian Casel:I saw I saw the tweet. It it sounds like something something went down.
Jordan Gal:It was a miserable, comedic tragedy of a day. It was a mess. Anyway, so I I had family in town and really tried to unplug from work. And, you know, we can get into a little bit of this later on when we talk about, like, twenty one and twenty two thoughts, lessons, that type of thing. But it took me some time to unwind and to stop paying attention and to stop caring about what the competition was doing, what's happening in the market, who's raising money, all that noise.
Jordan Gal:It took took me a little while to just calm that down. And it felt good once it once it did.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I've got a lot of mental struggles and lessons learned and things that that happened over the last year and headed into '22. I feel really good now. So interesting. But, you know, today we're actually publishing on a different day than usual.
Brian Casel:It it should be publishing today on on Tuesday, January 11 because today is launch day for Zip Message on product hunt. So if you are listening to this, today or or this week of January 11, I would really appreciate your support for Zip Message on Product Hunt.
Jordan Gal:Brian's gonna say it's appreciated. I'm gonna say it's required if you're listening to this. Come on.
Brian Casel:Come on now. It's really difficult with Product Hunt for me because it's like, yeah,
Jordan Gal:how do you think about it?
Brian Casel:I'm I'm stressing out like like crazy about it.
Jordan Gal:Really? I don't think you should. I don't I don't think you should.
Brian Casel:You know what it is? There there's this the sheer work involved in, optimizing all the things. Right? So I gotta this week, I had a bunch of product stuff to ship to get that out of the way, like, several days before product hunt. And then I've gotta record a new demo video.
Brian Casel:I gotta create new, you know, image assets for the thing. I gotta draft my first comment for it. I gotta, you know, plan it all out and plan the outreach strategy and and all and all of that kind of stuff. So so that and then, you know, just in terms of what Product Hunt is, like, I I gotta keep checking myself. Like, look, it's a crapshoot.
Brian Casel:It could be totally nothing and that is fine.
Jordan Gal:Right. Some traffic and SEO and
Brian Casel:Like how to, you know, ZipMessage had a or actually a really good first year and it'll just continue to to grow in 2022 and that's that's the plan. But if Zip Message were to do really well on Product Hunt today, this week, that could be really meaningful for the business heading into this second year. You know?
Jordan Gal:What what does that look like? What is the successful scenario of a product hunt listing launch? Like, what what are you shooting for? This work is being done toward what end? Like, what what's what's the goal?
Jordan Gal:That energy and virality and attention and sharing. Right? That that's what it is?
Brian Casel:Yeah. I mean, look, Zip Message at this point is really dialed in. Like, we have the free plan, the product is in a really good place. We we've launched a lot of improvements to the onboarding, the reliability, the shareability. Actually had an amazing December.
Brian Casel:December turned out to be our best month of the year, surprisingly. Added more customers that that month than any other month. I was nervous about freemium at first back in, like, November, but, I mean, the conversion rate is working. And so, know, I just I really wanna ride this momentum into 2022. Yeah.
Brian Casel:I mean, the goal with Product Hunt is that, first of all, I think it's the type of product that could or would do fairly well on on Product Hunt. Of course, you know, it again, it's a crapshoot. You never know.
Jordan Gal:Right. Remote work plus freemium is is a good combo.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Plus like video messaging and and all that kind of stuff. So so there's that. Asynchronous communication, that's what it's all about. And like, it could really, really expand the pool of users and the pool of opportunity to meet more people and get the get more and more exposure for it.
Brian Casel:And that could snowball into a really good 2022 for for some
Jordan Gal:of Momentum. Right, kick started in January would be beautiful.
Brian Casel:Yeah. And I'm and I mean, I am trying to be strategic about it. Like with Process Kit a couple of years ago, that went up on Product Hunt accident. Like somebody else randomly hunted it with like a stranger. I don't even know them and I wasn't expecting it.
Brian Casel:And then all of a sudden I was getting traffic from Product Hunt on. And and it actually did pretty well. Like I think it got got to like spot three or something and and it was sitting there for for the whole week. And and that's a product that like compared to Zip Message, I I don't think that type of product would do as well on product note, but it still made a meaningful impact for that business. So for this one, like, it you know, again, if you're listening to this, I would really appreciate your your support this week.
Brian Casel:That that's all. If it sort of flops or if some some other thing knocks it out of the water, like, that's totally fine too. We've got a great product, great growth trajectory right now. So, yeah. Just trying to keep reminding myself of that.
Brian Casel:I also wanna thank our friend Justin Jackson from, the podcasting service Transistor FM. He was nice enough to be, the hunter of Zip Message on Product Hunt. So thank you, Justin.
Jordan Gal:Alright. So let's let's see how it does. I I feel like you have the right mindset where you shoot for the great outcome. And if it's just some SEO and attention and kind of an exciting few days, then that's fine too.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:Either either way, it it's good.
Brian Casel:Yep. What should we talk about? Like, like, I think you and I are both at this point now in our careers where we don't, like, have a a formal, like, these are the specific goals and how we how we're gonna report back on them and all and all that kind of stuff. I'm I'm kinda over that at this point.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Same. The December time frame and the break, it does just lend itself to reflection and looking back. For me, it's so the big theme or themes are just getting the mindset right and the right perspective. And I would say it's been a challenging month or so for me because the personal life is so mixed in right now with that mindset because we're we're considering moving and leaving Portland.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I wanna hear more about this.
Jordan Gal:And that that turmoil in the personal life and trying to figure it out and all that and the stress. And then, you know, my kids will they're not old, but they're older. They're they're five, seven, and nine. And so the emotional impact on them and then my wife and I talking about it constantly, figuring it out, and then you think about the money side of it. So it's it's really been it's added a lot of stress.
Jordan Gal:And in many ways, and I I talk about this openly to the leadership team at the company, like, we need to protect my fragile little ego. It is good for us when I have swagger and I feel great and I'm confident, and it is really important for my effectiveness as leader, as fundraiser, as all that stuff. It has been challenging to wrestle with that. These are the times when I have difficulty putting the Cardhook experience behind me. This is when it comes back up because if you look I mean, it is it is pretty straightforward.
Jordan Gal:The price range of houses that I'm looking at to buy is directly impacted by what Shopify did to me. Like, that that that's when it really, really becomes unavoidable for me on a day to day basis. When I have the right perspective, I have nothing but gratitude. And that's what leads to happiness, and that's what leads to confidence, and that leads to, like, this, you know, this energy around being excited about the future. Every every time you look back and you're, like, bitter about something that happened, it's not good.
Jordan Gal:It's not good for your future. So I I don't like to do that. I like to move forward and chalk things up to a great experience, and I financially did just fine, but that's when it gets real. You know, when the outcome at Cardhook should have been compared to what it is, that's when that all that stuff comes up and the frustration and anger and and and that stuff is no good. It's it's not it's not healthy.
Brian Casel:I hear that. I guess I I would be curious about how how that actually impacts, like, the house search. Maybe get into that off offline a little bit. But, like,
Jordan Gal:I mean, you know, a bigger, more expensive house is nicer than a smaller less. It's kind of straightforward.
Brian Casel:I mean, I wanna hear more about, like, lo like, choosing location and why why you wanna leave Portland and all that kind of stuff. But just in terms of housing, we moved I feel like we and probably most people listening are so lucky that we're not location dependent for the for the most part. And, know, unless you have like a certain hub with a team in a in a certain place, but like
Jordan Gal:Or family. Yeah.
Brian Casel:We used to live in Norwalk, Connecticut, which is about forty five minutes north of New York City. And when we were shopping for a house, we were looking around that area in in the surrounding towns. And, you know, the value just just was not there. It was like too expensive for too small an area. If you get any closer to New York City or Long Island or Westchester, it's just like I think it's the worst value in all of America.
Brian Casel:No. Like, seriously.
Jordan Gal:It's a place made for people who have to live near New York City.
Brian Casel:Exactly. Exactly. But but we moved thirty minutes further away to Orange, Connecticut, and we got like double the property, amazing nice house, crazy like I never expected to live in this kind of space for like no money, taxes are are unbelievably good, and like great school district, like it's it's amazing here, and we're not really commuting distance to to a major city, so we don't need to be. And and I think that's like in terms of, like, lifestyle, that that's been that's been great. You've been in Portland a few years, so, like, why think about leaving?
Jordan Gal:I'm gonna temper myself a little bit on on this because I don't
Brian Casel:want to thinking like, man, I wish I lived in Portland.
Jordan Gal:It is extremely frustrating because we really like it here. The community of people here are incredible. The city is awesome. The ability to live in a neighborhood where we live in Northeast, it feels like a suburb, but it's close enough together that there's a real neighborhood feel. You know your neighbors, your kid bite your kids bite down the block to meet their friends.
Jordan Gal:It it feels amazing that way. But the city and its politics are stuck on stupid. It is stuck on stupid. I don't even know how else to say it. The willingness to let the city deteriorate over the last few years is so depressing.
Jordan Gal:You drive around every exit ramp, tents, and people sleeping on the floor and homelessness, and then that creeps into quality of life. And then I'm not willing to let my daughters walk to the library that's three three blocks away because there's a bunch of tents set up down the block. And, you know, the people are not mentally healthy walking around there.
Brian Casel:I was in DC a few months back, and, yeah, you see them everywhere. It's like
Jordan Gal:It's tough. It's it's heartbreaking on a humanity level. Yeah. And that the city makes you frustrated. And we used to we used to feel like we were in a bit of a bubble because the city was farther away.
Jordan Gal:And over the past two years, our bubble keeps getting pierced. And whether it's, you know, petty crime, more serious crime, our friend's house, you know, some lunatic on drugs breaks into their their backdoor with a hammer while they're sleeping upstairs with their kids. It's just be it's just starting to become so regular and so frustrating. And then the budget is difficult, and the city is very, very focused on on on equality, which is a great thing to pursue, but it can get to a place where you are actively shooting yourselves in the foot repeatedly. So one of our strangest experiences as parents, and a lot of it is because we're from New York and kind of see things a certain way and expect things to be a certain way.
Jordan Gal:My wife's the president of the PTA. So she's she's in on all of it, and she has done a crazy job, a good job of managing through the pandemic and all this other stuff. The school that our kids go to, it's on a busy road. And when something comes up around there have been a few near misses. Kid getting hit by a car and breaking a leg, kid a little three year old being dragged with by a car with her scooter.
Jordan Gal:Just like really scary stuff. So when we start to bring up like, hey. You know what we need to do? We need to go to the city and say, guys, you you gotta fix this intersection. You need a crossing guard.
Jordan Gal:What ends up coming up in the conversation is, well, we can't do that if the other lower income areas can't have it also. And and that's kind of where, for me, things start to get a little more straightforward where if we're talking about our kids' safety, like like, get out of the way and and help us accomplish what we need to accomplish. Yes. We can also think about other neighborhoods and see what we can do to help them. That's always part of the conversation in a healthy way in Portland.
Jordan Gal:But it's just all this stuff started to combine. And then my wife was on the highway a few weeks ago, and someone tried to carjack her. Someone stopped her car on the highway holding a hammer in a pickaxe in one hand and a sledgehammer in the other hand and try to get her to stop and then approach the the the car door the the driver's side door. So this stuff, it won't stop. It keeps it keeps kind of rubbing up against us, and I'm I'm not into that shit, man.
Jordan Gal:I'm I'm I'm captain safety. Dude, I
Brian Casel:don't blame you. Mean, it's it's it's it's interesting how different we live day to day just based on where where you live. I mean, you know, sitting here in our house in Suburban Connecticut, we are in in this, like, suburban bubble here. Plenty of distance between the neighbors, and the neighbors are super friendly and everything, and, like, and great schools, and, like, I have tons of frustrations about politics in the country, and and that's when I start to think about different countries, not you know, but, like, especially healthcare. Oh my god.
Brian Casel:Don't get me started. But when you see it day to day and and when it's your kids and and and safety, I mean, it it it becomes sort of like a no brainer. Like, okay. Like, it's time. And again, it's it's our freedom of like, okay.
Brian Casel:Like like, we're we're not tied to the location. So so if if our government or our place can't serve our needs, it's We vote with our feet. It's too easy for us to just walk away somewhere else.
Jordan Gal:Right. Now the thing is we love the community and the people and the kids are all happy with their friends. And so to rip them out of
Brian Casel:that But they're but they're
Jordan Gal:young enough to Right. They're young enough. But then you get into a situation where where where do you go? When you have the ability to go anywhere, it it becomes really difficult to choose a place. And then you're having conversations with your spouse, your partner, and figuring that out.
Jordan Gal:So, anyway, that that that's gonna be a very big theme for me in '22 on just getting situated because
Brian Casel:Do does the work locate like, your team location play into it at all? Are are you guys committing to fully remote, or do you wanna find a hub? Like, what are you thinking there?
Jordan Gal:It it doesn't. You know, we have an office here in Portland that is never used, and I'm gonna give up the lease because it isn't used. And there's only one other person, our VP of product is here in Portland, and that's it. Everyone else is is distributed. So, alright, we we can do whatever we want.
Brian Casel:I've always believed this, but I think I believe it now much more than ever. Just commit to remote and then commit to retreats in person a few times a year. Like or frequent trips to to see the team for for FaceTime stuff. But like, you you know, the the benefits so far outweigh when you're distributed and everyone and and you can have the worldwide talent pool, not you know, let alone for your for yourself and where you wanna live.
Jordan Gal:So Yeah. I I think you are giving up some things, but overall I mean, this is a perfect example. Right? Now I'm I'm the CEO. If we were not remote, it would not make any sense for the CEO to be the one to leave.
Jordan Gal:It just it just wouldn't make Yeah. But now I'm just like everyone else. I'm a team member, and I do my work and doesn't matter where. So I'm really looking forward. You know, if you think about that at our stage in life, it is selling a house, finding a house, buying a house, moving.
Jordan Gal:Just that word moving. Everyone knows what that means. The the amount of pain and work and and energy expended toward that. So I'm I'm looking at, like, the six month kind of time frame and really look forward to being on the other side of it. But through that and through that frustration that I alluded to earlier, it really feels to me like the thing for me to work on is the mindset, the ability to focus on the upside, the optimism, the gratitude, having the right perspective, not really caring about what competitors are doing or how much they're valued, just focusing and executing and doing what we know how to do, servicing customers.
Jordan Gal:Like, it all works out when when you focus there.
Brian Casel:That's that's been a really big personal focus for me over the last, I'd say twelve months and definitely going forward is is you know, it's it's weird. It's like I've been on my own and, you know, self employed in in business for over thirteen years now. And I think that this past year and I've had hard years in in that run. I think this past year was maybe the hardest mentally. Just in terms of like managing my state of mind and what I'm focusing on and what I'm choosing to pay attention to or not pay attention to, it's too easy to to to get into these, like, tailspins where where I'm just stressing out about the stupidest bullshit.
Brian Casel:You know?
Jordan Gal:Mhmm. Well, you you you made some big decisions in '21. You you took some big risks, big actions.
Brian Casel:I wrote about this on on my on my recap post. '21 was definitely a shakeup year where, like, things like, everything really shook up. I sold audience ops, started Zip Message, took some funding for the first time in my career, all this stuff. But like on the positive side, which is so difficult for me to step back and and recognize, but I try to if if I try to do anything at this time of year, I try to kinda look at that. And I mean, Zip Message has has grown in a in a short period of time to be the most paying subscribers and and actually higher m r MRR than than I've seen in a software product in just a matter in in like three quarters of a year so far of of bringing customers on.
Brian Casel:So that to me is a good first year, but it you know, looking back on it, my head was really spinning about twelve months ago. Like like 2021, I was not in a really great place. I was coming to this point of like, okay, I think I wanna start this this new idea. I've been hacking on process kit for the last three years. AudienceOps is sort of just running, and I was a little bit lost.
Brian Casel:You know what it is? I've I've had some much faster successes in the past, like when AudienceOps started, you know, that grew revenue a lot faster. I built and sold Restaurant Engine before that. The productized course did really well, for for a number of years. It's running and and process good, of course, is still running.
Brian Casel:But like, I share it all on on this podcast, and mentally, it it takes a toll when when I'm trying to build SaaS products and they're not getting off the ground as fast as I would like, and especially as fast as previous things that I've done Mhmm. Have have done.
Jordan Gal:It's tough to to deal with mentally.
Brian Casel:Yeah. And and then, know, you couple that with, you know, you talk about competitors. I don't really focus on competitors too much, but I am close friends with a lot of a lot of people who who I constantly probably wrongly compare myself to. Yes. Yes.
Brian Casel:Everyone that I'm friends with that I talk to on a regular basis are are always incredibly supportive, and and I'm super grateful to to have these relationships. But there's no getting around it. Like, you know, I'm I'm gonna be turning 40 in 2022. And and I don't really feel old, but I but I'm not young. And and I've been doing this a while, and I'm I've had this, like, constant impatience of, like, I I need to be in this business that's gonna be the thing that I sink into for the next five plus years, five to ten years.
Brian Casel:You know?
Jordan Gal:I I hear you. I my my guess is that everyone listening in one way or another deals with it. Whether you wanna call it impostor syndrome or something else or just, you know, self flagellation. Whatever it is, the peer comparison, the willingness for people to flex these days openly and publicly that you kinda can't help but watch and be impacted by?
Brian Casel:You know, the public stuff, I I think a lot of that sort of like public announcement of of revenue is kind of annoying, and I I sort of just tune that out. But I'm close friends with people, and we talk numbers in private. What's kind of exciting about about these relationships, but also frustrating sometimes is like, I've I've been friends with them from before they've, you know, they they've like, you know, multiplied so many times. So it's like, you see that journey over over many years. And it's
Jordan Gal:Look look at our journey, Brian.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Exactly.
Jordan Gal:Our journey was me looking up to you like, oh my god. How am I ever gonna do that? And then, you know, and then Cardhook just hit and then got to, you know, 500 k in MRR. And and now I'm I'm all the way back to zero. So it's it's just a thing, but you're still the same person, and you're getting this external stimulus and external validation that all of us can't help but pay attention to.
Brian Casel:Yeah. But so so 2021 was sort of like a a gradual, like, coming to terms with, okay. Now I'm focusing on Zip Message, this is starting to to work and Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Hell, let's look forward.
Brian Casel:And and as and, you know, I I can't help but like connect that to like my mental state, but like, I think I've started to get more of a handle, especially as I incorporated like exercise into into my daily routine and and really using that to, like, focus and stay positive and and all that kind of stuff. And then and then, you know, you couple that with, the the crazy stress of selling a business and starting a SaaS and doing funding and and all this different kind of stuff. It was kind of a lot in 2021. But
Jordan Gal:Yeah. So now let let's if we look forward, right, how are you thinking about '22? Let's let's focus on on business first. Right? So ZipMessage in '22, like, what what do you what are you looking to get out of it?
Jordan Gal:What do you want? Expectations? Dreams?
Brian Casel:Alright. Well, so first of all, '22 will not be a shakeup year like like 2021 was. It's going to be consistency and growth. And really the ultimate goal with Zip Message is to get it to to a point where it's a sustainable, viable long term business, you know. And so I am looking to to really grow and multiply the MRR this year.
Brian Casel:So I wanna grow Zip Message, but I also wanna stay lean with it, you know. I'm not focusing too much on growing the team. It's not impossible that I might hire like another developer or or someone else by the end of the year, but I'm not thinking about that right now. Me plus one developer works beautifully in terms of shipping on the product. In terms of marketing hires, that's been a challenge in the last year and I still haven't cracked it.
Brian Casel:I've I have hired and worked with a few different contractors here off and on and some of them do do really great work for for a short thing, but I haven't quite figured out like the long term person or team there. And I've come to the conclusion that it's not a a long term, at least not yet. Like, it's basically me and I'm and I need to be executing lots of marketing projects and higher higher end help to execute these projects on an as needed basis. And and that's what I'm doing right now. I'm, you know, working with with a writer over here and an editor over there and and and then I'm okay.
Brian Casel:So the way that I think about growing Zip Message, I think of it basically in like three big tracks. Like one, probably the first and foremost is that it is a pro like a viral product. So I'm thinking about like product led growth. I've already shipped a bunch of updates to improve onboarding and and I've seen actually this impact. Like I I track how many first time users start recording and and how much do they record and how much do they share and and then how much do do the respondents that respond to them, how many of them sign up for accounts?
Brian Casel:So all all those numbers have been ticking up because of changes that I've made in the product to make that stuff easier. And I'm gonna continue kind of pushing on that sort of related to product growth, but marketing is it would be integrations. We're about to launch the zip message API. That's basically done. We just need to ship it.
Brian Casel:So once that's out in in late January, I'm gonna be doing a lot of outreach to other popular tools that I know our customers are using and launch, like, you know, first class integrations with them and co co promotions and all that. I'm doing some SEO content. I'm working with a writer on that. We you know, that that kind of stuff will be going out. You know, we talked about this earlier, but, like, just more relationships and more opportunities for exposure.
Brian Casel:So I just need to be talking to more people about stuff. And I've tried to do some of that and and I I'm kind of lining up like guest posts and guest podcasts. I'm I'm on like tropical NBA this month. I'm on a bunch of other podcasts this month and I'm trying to do more of that, trying to get get out there. You know what it is?
Brian Casel:I'm I'm not really looking for like a single channel that's going to 10 x over the next year. I'm just trying to do a lot of activity and and execute a lot of projects and figure out who I need to hire on each one to make sure that those those things are happening while I'm spending the time on on working on the product. So it's it's just sort of like a lot of activity, you know. And then and then hopefully, a couple of these things that happen throughout the year will help multiply the stuff that's that's that I'm working on. So like the product hunt launch or getting on a really big name podcast somewhere else or SEO traffic that starts to kick in.
Brian Casel:And and then and then, you know, the referrals and the and the pool of free users start to help multiply that as well.
Jordan Gal:It sounds like knock on crazy, not throwing things upside down, just consistent work over the year, see what works. I'm sure you'll make some adjustments along the way based on what you learn along the way or ideas you have or things that come up.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah. For sure. You know? Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Do you have a target, like revenue in mind, like or a certain amount of growth? You want a two x, three x, like
Brian Casel:Yeah. You know, I'm not gonna be talking numbers on on the podcast, but
Jordan Gal:Don't expect it.
Brian Casel:I would say on the low end of like where I would like to be twelve months from now, you know, three x the the current MRR and that that would be like the low, you know.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Good.
Brian Casel:I I think I think a bunch of things can can bring us well above that, You know?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Same.
Brian Casel:Cool. So what about you? Like like, what are you what are you looking forward to in 2020, you know, '22? That's, the hardest year to say.
Jordan Gal:2022. It's it's odd. I think '22 is gonna be a bunch of different types of challenges, which is what I think will make it difficult. It's not just a product challenge or a team challenge or a finance challenge. It's really a lot.
Jordan Gal:I acknowledge, and every once in a while, I come across someone who's kind of knows the company well enough and is willing to be honest enough to say, this is a big bite you're taking type of a thing. The mentality that I'm trying to get right immediately in January is not to do everything myself. Like, right. The reason to raise money to build a team this big, this early is to hire the right people and empower them and and not try to do everything. So the marketing, the sales, I am really not leading the efforts, and I'm trying to set myself up.
Jordan Gal:You know you know, it's pretty similar to Rock, actually. Right? CTO, cofounder, he's done a really good job at setting things up from the beginning using a lot of the lessons learned from Cardhook so that he is really not integral to to development process. He provides his wisdom and experience to help people avoid mistakes and head things off earlier as opposed to later. And the suggestions and the data model like, he did he did an amazing amount of work on the data model because that's one of the things that's really hard to change.
Jordan Gal:So he's gotten himself into a good place that and I admire how he's done that, And I need to do that on the front of house, on the sales, the marketing, the PR, all this stuff where I play a smaller and smaller role in the day to day, and people are just empowered and then are able to build out the teams that they that they need to build out in order to accomplish this stuff. So I think as, like, a leader manager, that's gonna be really necessary. I think we're gonna raise more money in '22, and that's gonna be a new challenge for me. I've never done series a before. So that'll just be new, and there's a lot of questions around that on when to go.
Jordan Gal:You look at the market and you're like, people are raising money. People there's so much money. What's going on? But then when you get down to the mac micro as opposed to the macro view of it and you look at your situation, it's tough to tell how much traction do you want before you go out and raise raise money.
Brian Casel:That's like the big question that comes to mind for me is like, what what's the metric that that helps you know the timing of when to when to move from seed to series a?
Jordan Gal:You know, I look for that too. I wanna know what's the metric. And the conclusion I'm coming to is it's up to me. And that that's actually a difficult conclusion to come to because that then okay. Now you're on your own, and you you can't really tell.
Jordan Gal:Because some conversations I have, people say, wait until you get, you know, more traction. Specifically for us, it's GMV. It's the amount of revenue process. It's not the amount of revenue that we're generating as a company. It's it's GMV that companies like ours are being rewarded for.
Jordan Gal:Whether it's our competitors or, like, fintech companies or whatever, it's GMV that's really driving it. So that's our focus on driving up GMV. But we have a really interesting value proposition. And when you blend in our Web three and token model, it's pretty unique. And a lot of the crypto funds wanna go much earlier, before a token is public, and the earlier, the better for a lot of those.
Jordan Gal:And we have a compelling enough story. So I think we can raise money once I'm ready. But I wanna get to a place where it's kind of a no brainer, and I have enough momentum in growth behind me that it's just a very easy set of conversations. That's that's
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:The ideal.
Brian Casel:Like, getting, like, a customer like, really, really good, like, customer case studies and and, like, use case case studies and and that kind of stuff.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Just just growth. You know, we we we onboarded the first accounts in q four.
Brian Casel:I mean, I would think more like like customer and and use case case studies to help the story of, like, what
Jordan Gal:right? It makes the story real because I'm good at telling the story. But then if you have merchants that are signing up, onboarding, launching, and then growing and staying, then it just makes the story, like, real from a third party point of view, like a, you know, like a it's just it goes beyond what you're saying. It goes into, like, well, that that's a objective.
Brian Casel:Is there, like, a c like, you know, you the beginning of the year, you're you're after the holidays, is is this one, like, stores are thinking about reworking their infrastructure and looking at a rally and and that kind of stuff?
Jordan Gal:For sure. For sure. Yeah. Q four, everyone kind of is interested in what they can do, but are more hesitant to make changes, especially around the checkup being something so big. So q one is the combination of everyone looking at their business and saying, what do wanna do this year?
Jordan Gal:So ecommerce is no different. So they're more open to new tools and new experiments and new new things to help them grow. At the same time, q four was a gangbusters quarter for for funds raising their money. And so the amount of money that's gone into funds in q four that's now ready to be deployed in q one lines up really well, and that's why the funding environment in q one is gonna be bananas. Everyone's gonna raise money in q one because everyone's coffers are full.
Jordan Gal:So so the fundraising thing is gonna be a tricky element. The product is gonna be a tricky element on how to prioritize things because there's so many things we wanna do, so that's just difficult. And then the web three component is a lot of uncharted territory for me and working with a token and the right way to introduce that to customers and the right way to talk about that, that it doesn't scare people off, but shows people the benefit, how to incorporate that into our marketing and our positioning and to the sales process. Like, there's just a and and then, of course, the blockchain development side underneath it.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I mean, that that's what I'm really excited to hear and and see more about. Like, the I'm constantly tuning into podcasts and conversations about Web three and the promise and all and all this stuff. And and I'm excited that that you're that you're getting into it because I I feel like I'm gonna see, like, firsthand, like, something actually happen. Something actually get built and and used.
Brian Casel:You know?
Jordan Gal:And and I think it'll be much more understandable than a lot of this DeFi stuff and NFT stuff that's kind of like, I don't know, it's a it's a puzzle.
Brian Casel:That's what I'm excited about. Like like commerce and web three seems like the easiest path to building something real in the world that people will drive value from. The the gaming and the NFT stuff, like, alright. It it's interesting to follow, but it's it's like, what what am I what am I reading here? Like, what is this?
Brian Casel:Like
Jordan Gal:Yes. And it's caused the schism, you know, in the tech community between, like, detractors and and people who are into it. And as I don't know how healthy that is, but think it's totally normal. But, yeah, one way or another, that 3% that everyone pays, the credit card fees, that thing's gonna be attacked on all sides. And I'm very interested in participating in that transition.
Jordan Gal:So we like Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, BrainTrip, all
Brian Casel:those. That's an interesting thing. So so what I've heard in the earlier parts of of you introducing Rally, it's more about, like, decentralization, break away from the big shopping cart and and all the and all the big tools. Now I'm hearing, like, the the the the enemy is
Jordan Gal:I think it's objective. I don't think it's the enemy. It's not our our enemy. We we love Stripe, and and those are our partners.
Brian Casel:Yeah. And and that's that's the wrong word for it.
Jordan Gal:Right. But there that is an inevitable disruption and benefit that crypto is going to bring at some point. And the truth is Visa, those companies are in it. They are not just gonna let it happen to them. They're gonna participate.
Brian Casel:You know, from a marketing positioning standpoint, like, I think one of my biggest, like, gradual learnings over the last few years is to think about this is the wrong word to use the word, like, enemy for this, but, like, in terms of, like, planting a flag and how others start to talk about your product and think about and recommend it, you know, like for me, I'm I'm thinking about like, you know, if if too many calendar meetings are are your are your problem, our our solution is is asynchronous. Right?
Jordan Gal:Yes. And it's okay to make that contrast stark. It works. It works a lot. It works for Basecamp.
Jordan Gal:It works for a lot of companies that you're very familiar with. It works for for us, it's the payments. That's not our enemy. Our enemy is is the Shopify's centralized platform that tells you what you can and can't do, that people are getting really frustrated by and whatever else, and that's our enemy is that version of things and and bringing power back to the merchant as our goal. So it is it is really useful and will inevitably a larger play a larger role in our marketing position.
Brian Casel:Yeah. And just to make it, like, clear for folks, like, when I think about this and when I talk about it, it's it's not zero sum, you know, like calendar events and live calls and using calendar tools. Of of course, these are things that will always be around. I'll to pay for them and use them myself. But, you know, in terms of describing the the the specific problem that this utility does and and, yeah, I I think it's a really good way to kinda, like, frame it.
Brian Casel:You know? Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Look. I I I got a boogie because I have a call with a very large national bank who again, these these people do not want to miss out on this stuff. They wanna be involved and understand what's happening and why and how they can participate and how it adds value to their customers. So what if right now they're making a living off that 3%? It's they know it's One of
Brian Casel:these weeks, I'm gonna I I I feel like I keep asking you the questions, but, like, I I still don't quite understand what kind of, like, magic wizardry you're doing that that lines you up to get on calls with these, like, major banks? Like like, what kind of, like, networking superpower are are you running over there? Okay. Okay. Like, all these years, I'm still trying to understand that.
Jordan Gal:You know, I I we should get into that because because I like talking about things that I'm good at, and I'm not very good at everything. But if I could just do, like, three calls a day and then take walks the rest of the day, that's probably the best thing that I can do for the company, and it's my favorite thing to do.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I like, doing the calls, I sort of understand. It's like talking to who to talking to who to talking to who to to line up that that serious call.
Pippin Williamson:You know?
Jordan Gal:Yes. And some of that stuff is is the VC network and and what that does, but a lot of it is being really good to other people and it always coming back. But we we can we can get into that. It's 11:30. I got this call.
Jordan Gal:Brian, let's have a great year, man. Let's do it.
Brian Casel:Yeah. And hey, listeners. I'm gonna drop a link to a Product Hunt in the show notes. Please help help it out.
Jordan Gal:Helps help put it
Brian Casel:in the down.
Jordan Gal:Hell, yes. Let's do it.
Brian Casel:Alright. Talk to you soon. See you.
