Bootstrapped Web

Speaker 1: 00:08

This is Bootstrap Web episode 33. It's the place to hear what your fellow bootstrappers are working on and the lessons that they learn by doing so you can apply them in your business. Brian Castle here. In addition to this podcast, I put out a weekly dose of tips and free resources to help you level up. Join me at castjam.com.

Speaker 1: 00:30

Today, I've got my friend Brad Tunar on the show. So Brad and I go back a couple of years and he he runs a very successful WordPress plug in business. His company is called Delicious Brains and and he'll tell you all about the his his plug in DB Migrate Pro. But today, you know, we're talking all about making that transition from freelance into products. And something that I've I've been giving a lot of thought to lately, and I'm starting to put out a lot more content as I know that a lot of you in my audience are are in that process, either planning to to make the switch or you're you're on your way to making the switch, you know, replacing your former income, whether it's in a job or or freelancing with, you know, productizing your service or building your first product.

Speaker 1: 01:24

Or maybe you've already built your product, you're, you know, you're getting that that early traction. Well, what we're talking about today is how to really make it work during that first year, the critical transition year. Both Brad and I have pretty much, well, you know, fully made that transition over the last couple of years. And, you know, I think we would both be the first to tell you that we've made quite a few mistakes along the way. I know I certainly have.

Speaker 1: 01:53

And so there's a lot to learn from our mistakes. So hopefully you can, you know, get there a lot quicker. And actually Brad, as of today, has just put out a pretty cool opportunity for for any developers out there who are looking for a way to kind of support themselves, but also plan that transition into building out your own product. Brad has a pretty interesting job offer for you to go work for his company, only thirty two hours a week, and that leaves, you know, a nice chunk of extra hours every week that you can then apply to build out your own product. And of course, working alongside somebody like Brad, there's no doubt you will certainly learn a lot in a position like that.

Speaker 1: 02:39

So Brad actually has a pretty cool blog post all about this opportunity which we talked a bit about and I'll link it up here in the show notes. So, you'll definitely want to to check that out. The other thing that I'll mention is Brad and I co run a little conference called Big Snow Tiny Conf. We did the first one last year. It was a success, and we are definitely doing it again this year.

Speaker 1: 03:04

Well, January 2015. And that's coming up at the January 2015. Join a couple of 10 to 20 of your fellow web business owners, bootstrappers, designers, developers, iOS developers, all sorts of different business owners. We kind of come together, rent a house, we might even rent two houses this year, right on the slopes of Sugarbush, Vermont in the Northeast Of The U. S.

Speaker 1: 03:31

Spent half the day snowboarding, half the day, you know, learning business and kind of just talking business. A lot of fun. We're going to be releasing tickets, probably an early bird ticket in September, and Brad and I will talk a little bit more about that near the end of today's conversation. So, definitely stay tuned for that. And the website for that, by the way, where you can get on the mailing list is bigsnowtinyconf.com.

Speaker 1: 03:57

But let's let's head right straight into the main event today. Brad, Tunar, and myself talking about making that transition from freelancing into products. Enjoy. Alright. So I'm here with my friend Brad Tunar.

Speaker 1: 04:14

Once again, Brad, you actually joined me on one of the early episodes of Bootstrapped Web. And so welcome back to the show.

Speaker 2: 04:21

Yeah. Thanks for having me, Brian.

Speaker 1: 04:23

So so yeah. I mean, you you know, you are the founder of Delicious Brains. Right? And your your your big product, which has been around for for a couple years now, is WP Migrate Pro. Can you kinda tell folks what that's all about and what you've up to lately?

Speaker 2: 04:40

Yeah. It's been well, I guess you're right. It's almost been two years. I mean, well, it's been about a year and a half, I guess. April year is when we launched.

Speaker 2: 04:53

So what it does is it's a plug in install into WordPress and allows you to migrate your database from one WordPress install to another. So for example, if you're developing on your local machine and you wanna work on a client website, maybe, you know and they have a live site, You'd install the plug in locally and on your client's server, and then you could just suck the database down and start developing really quickly. And then the other way is is when you're done, you could push that database up to, like, a staging server or something. So it's it's saving people quite a bit of time, and it's been it's been really great. It's kind of kind of been, like, a surprise because I didn't know when we I knew that the free product was gonna be with that the free product was doing quite well, like but it he wasn't, like, wildly popular or anything.

Speaker 2: 05:58

So I'm just surprised that that the the pro version Yeah. Has been doing so well.

Speaker 1: 06:04

So And so for those who are, like, nontechnical, you know, in this audience, basically, it it makes it super easy and fast to migrate a WordPress site either from a staging server to a production or from, like, one server to another server. That is usually very, very painful. I mean, I I even personally and I'm not you know, I can code a little bit, but I'm not, you know, back end developer expert like like you are. So there have been so many times when I would, like, literally manually have to copy each of the WordPress widgets and the content of each one and, you know, export the post database and then export the Gravity Forms export file and, like, manually do each each thing like that. And then, like, change all the image paths, you know.

Speaker 1: 06:51

This thing is kind of just like a one shot, sucks it right from one one site to another.

Speaker 2: 06:57

Yeah. And it's funny, like, the reception that we've we've gotten from like, I've been hugged at conferences, and one guy gave me a kiss once. It's just like, this is that that's when you know you you've, like, you've got product market fit.

Speaker 1: 07:12

You know? When you've got, like, strangers coming up to you and Pouring your love

Speaker 2: 07:17

your way, you know, almost, like, a little too much. Like

Speaker 1: 07:21

Alright. It's just a database migration tool. Right?

Speaker 2: 07:23

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 07:25

So, I mean, that that's kinda interesting what you said a second ago, like, how it you know, you you put it out there for free on the on the WordPress directory, and then it kind of gained popularity once you started charging for it. Is is that kind of how it went down?

Speaker 2: 07:41

Pretty much. Yeah. I mean, we we add like, I add a lot of features. Right? Like or I shouldn't say we added a lot of features.

Speaker 2: 07:51

And I think that's what did it for people. Like, it made a lot easier. It was the free version was making it easier, but this is making it a lot easier. Right? Like, with the free version, you still had to do you know, you had to log in to, you know, some kind of database tool like PHP MyAdmin is the one most people are familiar with, and then you had to import using that.

Speaker 2: 08:17

And then sometimes that wouldn't work, and it was you know? So that that whole process is eliminated with the pro version, and so it makes it, like, a lot easier. So I think that's that's probably why the pro version is so much more popular and it just works. You know?

Speaker 1: 08:35

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So okay. So, you know, today, you know, I I kind of invited you on last minute.

Speaker 1: 08:41

We were we were chatting earlier today. And, you know, I I think in in terms of, like, a theme for today's show, I'd like to talk about your first year. Any any bootstrapped entrepreneur's first year trying to get a product out there, trying to gain that early traction, and starting to make that transition between doing freelance client work and replacing that income with a with a product. Or maybe you're at a nine to five job or something and you're trying you're trying to build a a little side project on the side and get it up to the point where you're ready to quit the job and pursue the product full time while supporting, you know, maybe a family with kids or, you know, you have a mortgage or something like that. You know, how how does that act how can we actually make that work?

Speaker 1: 09:29

How is that really viable? It's it's a super challenging thing. I think it's something that, you know, you and I have both kinda made that transition over the last couple of years. And and, you know, I I really liked your post that that you that you wrote about on your blog today, and we'll link that up. And that is so you titled the post, I'll give you a job and help you launch your first product.

Speaker 1: 09:52

So can you can you talk a little about what what that's all about?

Speaker 2: 09:56

Yeah. So it's actually it's a hiring strategy is what it is because I realized that, like, when I had a full time job, if someone had offered me another full time job where I would have the time to spend on my side projects and pursue building a product business, I would have jumped at the opportunity. Right? Especially if the position involved learning about a product business. So what I'm offering people is the ability to work with me on my product business, so learn about setting up and running a product business, and also get paid, you know, thirty two hours a week or whatever to and and then just have all this extra free time.

Speaker 2: 10:52

Right? Like, thirty two hours a week is about a four day work week, so you'd have evenings and then a three day work weekend if you wanted to. You could still fit in time for family and friends and stuff, but it would give you more flexibility than if you're working at an agency sixty hours a week. A big part of the problem when you're working at an agency or most demanding jobs like that require a lot of your creative energy. So at the end of the day, when you're trying to put time into your business, you're just zapped.

Speaker 2: 11:34

Right? You've got nothing left in the tank. And so you can't you can't do anything besides watch television usually. Yeah. Go to bed.

Speaker 2: 11:43

Exactly. And so so this would I I'm not saying I don't want someone's creative energy, though. I made that clear in the post. I was like, I want all your creative energy during the times you're working with me. But after after that, you know, you can hopefully, you'll have enough creative energy left to put in your own business.

Speaker 1: 12:05

Yeah. And, you know, that's an interesting point because I think so, like, comparing working on a product or working for a company that focuses on one product versus working in, say, like an agency setting or working on your own as a freelance consultant, like developer contractor. Yeah. I I think that there is so much more, like, urgency and because the agency world and the freelancing world is so much more deadline driven. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 12:37

So you're constantly trying to finish a product in the allotted time or you have some kind of launch date. Every week there's some kind of new launch that you have to meet. And Yeah. I just remembered days when I used to work at an agency, or actually, you know, even when I was kinda doing freelance work, I whether I wanted to or not, tonight, I have to work until 10PM or or midnight, you know, because I have to meet a deadline. And, like, whereas if you're working on a product, it's just kind of constant, like, day to day incremental progress, working on a new feature, maybe fixing a bug here and there, but there isn't that urgency and there and there are no deadlines.

Speaker 1: 13:15

It's just kind of, you know, you're dealing with thousands of customers instead of, like, one super angry customer. You know?

Speaker 2: 13:22

Yeah. Exactly. I don't think yeah. I thought about imposing deadlines in our production schedule for our product, but I think what'll happen is that quality will start to suffer. Because sometimes we there's so many things that you can't predict that pop up before release, you know, gets finished.

Speaker 2: 13:44

Yeah. I wouldn't wanna have to cut out some stuff just to make a date. You know? So, yeah, I think it's but with I

Speaker 1: 13:52

mean, there's a difference between, like, goals and hard, like, deadlines. You know, like, I Yeah. Like, I always give myself goals, like, okay. For the month of July, I wanna get these three things done. You know?

Speaker 2: 14:04

And Right.

Speaker 1: 14:05

And if it, you know, stretches into the early August, like, fine. But, you know, it's it's not gonna make me go crazy and tear my hair out. You know? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:16

I remember wondering why when I was working at an agency, why why are these deadlines? Like, who where are these numb where are these dates coming from? Who who's deciding on these? It seems arbitrary. Right?

Speaker 2: 14:28

Well, here's what I was told is that marketing at the client the marketing department at McDonald's or whoever, you know, your client is has decided that the big campaign blitz that they're gonna do on television, radio, etcetera, etcetera, it, you know, gets launched on this date. So the website has to be ready for that date because that's where all their traffic is being driven to.

Speaker 1: 14:56

But those are kind of like the realities of working in that world, you know, as a as a designer, developer, freelancer, or or an employee. I mean, you just that's that's the territory. So, I

Speaker 2: 15:07

mean,

Speaker 1: 15:08

if if your goal long term is to eventually build a product, you know, and go out on your own and and build your own business, I think what you're offering here with, you know, thirty thirty two hours a week of you know, it's still serious work, and and they're gonna have to work hard on for your company. But I think you're giving them that that freedom of time, but you're also I mean, you know, the clear benefit here and and the real value is being able to work alongside you, someone who has done this, someone who who has built a company like this. I mean, they're gonna be able to pick your brain and see firsthand, you know, learn a lot of the and probably avoid a lot of the same mistakes that that you and I have made.

Speaker 2: 15:51

Yeah. Exactly. And, like, a lot of, like, creative energy that they put in, like, during the day with me, they can use a lot of that stuff that they come up with, that they spend the creative energy on in their own business. They won't have to, like, respend that energy. Right?

Speaker 2: 16:09

Because they've already done the hard work of of coming up with it. I in the article, I mentioned an example of that would be, like, if you you were like really trying hard to come up with a way to build virality into the product, right? Because that can be a hard thing to like to come up with a strategy to do that. And and maybe you do, and then it probably translates to your own product as well. So so that's an example of, like, how that could that could work.

Speaker 1: 16:40

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I I think this idea of you know, just the just the idea of going and doing some kind of employed position while to support yourself during that first year of trying to launch your product versus saying doing basically what I did, and I I'm not sure, but I think what you did is, like, kinda support yourself doing client work.

Speaker 2: 17:04

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 17:04

Right? I mean, that was my notion. But I but looking back, you know, I I probably would have loved to to have some kind of some kind of position like this if if I knew that, like, okay. This is just a temporary, you know, one year kind of position, and I'm gonna achieve a certain result at the end of it, or I hope I will.

Speaker 2: 17:25

Yeah. I mean, the big problem with doing the freelance stuff is that it's a very different business. It's a it's a service business. Right? Then then it's very different than product business.

Speaker 2: 17:38

And so you're not really like, you're learning all this stuff about how to run a services business, and at the same time, you're trying to force yourself to, like, learn this other business as well and and start up this other business. So that's what makes it so difficult to do freelancing at the same time as you're doing this. I mean, the best I think the best scenario for a freelancer is if they can get, like, one big client that they deal with, and and that would be it, or one or two maybe, and they don't have to continuously drum up, like, new work all the time. So I think that's pretty much what happened to me. So I was I was fortunate that I was able to do that.

Speaker 1: 18:21

Yeah. I think that's a good scenario if if it's a good client to deal with. Yeah. You know? I mean, I've seen situations where they have one client and that client is essentially a a a boss from hell.

Speaker 2: 18:35

You know?

Speaker 1: 18:35

I was kinda fortunate that way as well. My the last client that I had a few months back, it was, like, the only remaining client. And I and I could've kinda stopped client work even earlier than I than I did, but I kinda just kept on, you know, finishing out this this one project because it it was such a great client to work for. They didn't even really have any deadlines. They were just like, look, we need all this stuff done whenever you can deliver it.

Speaker 1: 19:02

Doesn't doesn't even matter. And, you know, so that was that was pretty good.

Speaker 2: 19:08

Right. Yeah. I mean, I think that's I think it really helps if you get if you have a good client, not not too strict deadlines or, you know, it's not too they're not pushing you too hard. They're not treating you as an employee, so they're they're not monopolizing your time. So you, yeah, you still have, a fair amount of free time.

Speaker 2: 19:28

And they're paying you out would be the other part of it, I think. And if you if you could have all those things, that's a pretty good that's a pretty good scenario to to to be able to, you know, spend time starting up a product business on the side. The trickiest part, I think, with freelancing is just being disciplined enough to not take on too much work and to actually set aside enough time to put into your product business. Right? Because you're you're kinda juggling or or you're kinda bouncing between these two ideas.

Speaker 2: 20:01

Like, well, I could make guaranteed money by doing this freelance work that's coming in, which I kinda like doing anyway. So it's not like you hate it. Or or I could spend that time on something that may be a complete, you know, falling flat on its face. Right? It it may not be going anywhere.

Speaker 2: 20:28

So

Speaker 1: 20:28

Yeah. And you know what

Speaker 2: 20:30

That's really hard, I think.

Speaker 1: 20:31

Yeah. Totally. And the other interesting side of this is that if you're doing freelancing or consulting and your only purpose for doing that is to kind of pay the bills during this period of transition while you get your product off the ground, The freelancing and consulting game, like, that that is still requires you to be entrepreneurial. That that still requires you to go out and sell your services. You know?

Speaker 1: 20:55

So you have to go in like, you still have to land new if you still need clients to pay the bills, then that means you still need to sell clients on your services. And that means you probably have to go out to sales meetings or do phone calls or or, you know, maintain a sales website and portfolio and all this stuff and Yeah. Or and write proposals and and, like so it's hard to kind of put the the creative energy and, like, the passion behind selling something that you don't even really wanna be doing. You know what I mean? Like, whereas you if you had a a guaranteed kind of salary or part time salary, at least all you're focused on is is coding or designing or something and you know?

Speaker 2: 21:37

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And, I mean, that's the thing.

Speaker 2: 21:41

Like, you almost want a boring job. Right? Like, the article, I mentioned, like, you know, government jobs are perfect. Yeah. I've I've worked for the government, like, a few work terms during college, and, man, that was some really relaxed schedules, let's say.

Speaker 2: 22:02

Right. And and the work was pretty boring stuff. Right? Like, I remember one one job, I was, like, installing new PCs. So, like, a new PC would come in, like, they drop it in this room, and it'd be there.

Speaker 2: 22:17

And I'd be like, alright. Who's next on the list? And I just I just go into, like, some guy's office and, like, transfer all his files to this new machine and probably answer a 100 questions that he had about, what's this Firefox thing? I use Internet Explorer. Go on.

Speaker 1: 22:36

It's amazing. So And I mean, even even like working at a big agency, you can kind of you know, when when you're in a situation where there's, like, hundreds of of employees and you're just one of, like, 50 different developers, especially if you're, like, a freelancer, contractor, like like I was in one situation for a few months, couple years back. Sometimes they just don't have any work to give you, but they still want you to be in the seat in there every day. And I just remember, you know, there were there were, like, some weeks that went by that I didn't have any project on my plate. I would ask for work, and they were like, alright.

Speaker 1: 23:08

We'll we'll get back to you later. So I would just sit there and work on my own projects, like, developing WordPress themes or Yeah. Kinda serving my other clients while I'm on the clock at this at this agency, you know. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:19

Just That was that was an agency that that so they had you sitting in the seat, and they were paying you, and they didn't have any work coming in. Yeah. Yikes. That

Speaker 1: 23:28

was a it was kind of a semi temporary agency freelance gig that I had. It was, like, on-site at their office for a number of Right.

Speaker 2: 23:39

Right. And So they're probably, work's gonna come in any minute, so we don't want, like, Brian to take off, and then this work comes in, and then we'd be screwed.

Speaker 1: 23:48

Well, they were they had one huge client. And

Speaker 2: 23:52

Right.

Speaker 1: 23:53

Like and this huge client was, like, supporting the entire agency, which is kinda scary because if they were to change their mind and go to different agency, basically, like, a 100 people would be out of a job in in one day.

Speaker 2: 24:03

Yeah. That happened that happened to the I was working in a Vancouver office when I was working at an agency. And the Toronto office, like, they lost their contract with Bell, which is like the huge telecom company here in Canada. And they yeah. They laid off, like, a 100 people at that office just because those 100 people were dedicated to that client.

Speaker 2: 24:30

That's the only reason they were there.

Speaker 1: 24:32

Yeah. I mean, it's it's crazy. You know?

Speaker 2: 24:35

That is that is crazy. I mean, like, that that's, you know, having all your eggs in one basket in a business. I mean, that's, like, the extreme of that. Right?

Speaker 1: 24:45

And and, you know, you you look at at business owners, entrepreneurs, people who go out on their own, build their own thing, and the rest of the world looks the entrepreneur and says, oh, you know, that's so risky. You you're willing to take that kind of risk and and, you know, build something from nothing and, like, you have the guts to do that. You know? Right? But what what's more risky?

Speaker 1: 25:09

Right? Going out and and building something on your own and taking full responsibility for the success or failure of it, or working at some large company, whether it's an agency or in a cubicle somewhere, and your whole fate at that company, your ability to bring put food on your table for your family doesn't rest in your shoulders. It rests on some manager's shoulders, and one decision or one upper management decision can just wipe that out. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:37

That to me that to me is more risky.

Speaker 2: 25:39

And it's not even within the control of the company that you work for. It's like Yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:45

When they're you know,

Speaker 2: 25:46

it's the one who's making decision at another company. Right? Like, it's a client. So yeah. Another example of that is is, like, I always use, like, the pension thing because, like, pensions I'm hearing stories all the time about people even in, like, public servants.

Speaker 2: 26:04

They're public servants for, like, forty years or something. And then I I think Detroit's the example. Right? Like, their public service lost their their pensions. Right?

Speaker 1: 26:14

Yep. And that's the whole promise. Like, you you put in thirty, forty years on the promise that you're gonna have a a comfortable retirement, and then it's gone. Yeah. You know?

Speaker 2: 26:24

I mean and here's the thing about that. Like, the it just enrages me, that whole idea. Because this this hits close to home too. Because that rate rate in my hometown, you've got I've got friends whose parents are have lost their pensions because the mill near my hometown has basically collapsed, gone bankrupt. What's supposed to happen is their pensions were supposed to be in a fund that's untouchable.

Speaker 2: 26:54

Even if the company goes bankrupt, untouchable, those are locked. Those can't be touched. Because what happens is over those thirty years that this person's working at the company, they're putting money into that pension. They're putting their money or their earned money aside in that pension fund. So it's theirs, right?

Speaker 2: 27:14

Well, the government decides, you know what? Let's sell this business and open up that fund, crack open that fund, and give it to the new company and let them deal with it and stuff. So that that's how they lost their

Speaker 1: 27:26

New management comes in and then

Speaker 2: 27:28

Isn't that isn't that infuriating, though? I mean, those people, that was their money. Right? They earned it. And and the company is supposed to hold it for them, you know, in trust, and the trust is broken.

Speaker 1: 27:42

I mean, again, it just comes back to you're you're putting, you know, your destiny in the hands of someone else and not and not yourself. And that's, you know, I I that's why I don't see going out on your own and building a business however you wanna build the business, whether it's getting into building a product or, you know, even just building up like a freelance agency. But, like, you know, like, I I think that if you're gonna get in build your own business, like, build a product business or something like that, it's gonna if if it fails, it's not gonna fail because of one bad decision. It's gonna fail because of, like, a 100 bad decisions. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:22

And and it's very hard to to be wrong a 100 times. You know? Yeah. Probably gonna bat like fifty fifty. Hopefully, you get better and better as you as you gain experience, and you start to make more right decisions than wrong decisions.

Speaker 1: 28:36

And that's how you that's how you you get by. I mean, if if I look back at my last three years, I made a ton of really stupid mistakes, and I'm still here. I'm I'm actually having a pretty I I think I'm having maybe maybe our best month yet here in our business. Hi. And that's after three years of probably doing things pretty backwards and figuring things out and making a ton of mistakes.

Speaker 1: 28:59

So that's what the building a business is all is all about. At least I know that, you know, at the end of the day, I'm responsible for how this thing is gonna shake out.

Speaker 2: 29:08

Yeah. Well yeah. Absolutely. And I think I don't I don't think it's that I think the problem with business generally is that people it's the Silicon Valley problem. They those are those are people that are trying to hit home runs.

Speaker 2: 29:26

Right? Like and so that's what people think when they think about starting a business. It's so risky because, you know, I can't learn to hit a home run you know, I'll run out of money before I can hit that home run. And you're probably right.

Speaker 1: 29:41

Exactly.

Speaker 2: 29:41

But you don't have to hit a home run. Right? All you need is a base hit. Right?

Speaker 1: 29:45

That's it.

Speaker 2: 29:46

That's all you need. You know? And

Speaker 1: 29:48

then And all you need is, like, really, to get that initial traction. All you need is, like, 50 people to buy into what you're selling. Yeah. You don't need a thousand people. You don't need 100,000 peep you know, you look at Twitter, yeah, it's millions of users.

Speaker 1: 30:01

But you're not building Twitter. Don't try to build Twitter. You know? Yeah. Just just do something small and build on that.

Speaker 2: 30:10

Yeah. And I'm always thinking about, like, people. So where I live, a lot of people leave here. The unemployment rate's pretty high in in my province here, and they move out west because in Alberta where, you know, there the tar sands are there. You guys do you know about that?

Speaker 2: 30:28

Like, that that's where they get all the oil out of Right.

Speaker 1: 30:31

The tar sands. Right.

Speaker 2: 30:32

A lot of money there, a lot of industry happening, so a lot of work. And so that's where most people move. Like, you know, I've got I've got friends out there. They're electricians, plumbers, trade they trade people and stuff. And I'm just thinking, like, dudes, like, you could be back here living among your family who are still here.

Speaker 2: 30:53

And and just being being a freelance plumber or electrician, there's tons of work here, but they don't wanna run their own business. Right? Because it's just too risky. And I think I think that's that's a myth. Right?

Speaker 2: 31:08

Like, it I think that's totally doable. I mean, that that's their base hit. They could set up and run their business, get a few clients, and then then round second, hire you know, experiment with hiring someone. That's kind of the next step. And then then get yourself away from the electrical work and more into the spreadsheets and and that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2: 31:33

So

Speaker 1: 31:34

So yeah. I mean, totally I mean, like so let let's talk a little bit about, you know, your history, and I'll and I'll get into my history a little bit about how we we actually managed to make that transition from being freelance you know, we were both like freelance web designers, developers for a while. And then, you know, now now we're kind of running products business. So what was your first year like, and, like, how did you actually make that transition work financially, logistically? How how did that work for you?

Speaker 2: 32:07

So I I guess it wasn't I was it's kind of a I guess I cheated kind of because I took I took some angel money for Dolby at the App Store, which was my attempt at a home run. Right? And so that was the first year. I pretty much went through that that cash in that first year. And then I had a little bit left over and decided, okay.

Speaker 2: 32:34

Let's let's pivot and try this this product, turning this free product, WP Migrate DB into a pro version and and start charging for it and see if that works. Yeah. That was kinda my thought.

Speaker 1: 32:48

Interesting. Like, know, if you're gonna do something over again. Right? If you had a chance to read you know, do it over, Your your first thing was you're you're trying to build an app store for for WordPress. And I I actually still think that was a good idea, but but it is a you're thinking you're thinking very big.

Speaker 1: 33:06

You know?

Speaker 2: 33:06

Well, and Any marketplace is extremely difficult to get going. Right? And it I mean, talk about the slow ramp of death for SaaS.

Speaker 1: 33:16

I mean And but but, like, the then the thing that really was a big hit for you was, when you think about it, a super small product. It's like super niche. This this, you know, DB Migrate Pro. I mean, it's like a niche within a niche. It's not just like all WordPress users.

Speaker 1: 33:30

It's only like the develop the, you know, hardcore developers in in WordPress. But, luckily, there's a whole bunch of them, and they're willing to pay for it.

Speaker 2: 33:39

Yeah. So far, there's 2,800 of them. So There you go. It hasn't slowed down. It just keeps growing.

Speaker 2: 33:45

So I feel like every day, I'm surprised. I'm like, when am I gonna tap out this market? Like, when when is there gonna be no more developers to buy this thing?

Speaker 1: 33:57

So when and by the way, the so these are a couple of questions that I actually posted last night, you know, on the on the Bootstrap FM forums. So I I kinda posted this question because I'm planning to write an article about how did how did you support yourself financially during that first year. And sorry. There's a siren going by. This always happens during my podcast.

Speaker 1: 34:22

I gotta, like, put a sign out the window and be like, I'm trying to record a podcast here.

Speaker 2: 34:26

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 34:26

Yeah. Avoid my street, please.

Speaker 2: 34:28

Oh, yeah. Screw that guy that just got hit by a car. I'm recording a podcast here.

Speaker 1: 34:38

Alright. So, man, that is a that's like the slowest moving ambulance I think I've ever

Speaker 2: 34:46

Just parked at your driveway.

Speaker 1: 34:48

So, anyway, I you know, I'm I'm putting together this post. You know? How did you financially support yourself in the first year of bootstrapping your product? I put out a couple questions out there. So one of them is how much how long of a runway did you give yourself?

Speaker 1: 35:03

Like, what did you plan for, and then what was the reality? What like, how long did it take to basically replace the income that you used to have as a freelancer?

Speaker 2: 35:15

So the first month we launched, we did over 10. So I was really lucky.

Speaker 1: 35:24

Right. That's awesome.

Speaker 2: 35:25

Because that's unheard of. Right? People I mean, I could've if I had had a full time job at that point, I could've quit immediately. Right? I've been doing I pretty much did freelancing, like, the whole time.

Speaker 2: 35:42

So there was a certain period of time after I accepted the angel money for Migrate DB or for WP App Store that I that I didn't do any freelancing. I was just focused on that. But when we realized there was very little uptake and that it was gonna be a really long time before if this thing ever takes off, it's gonna be a really long time. When when I realized that, I was like, okay. I gotta start doing freelancing stuff again because I'm not gonna see money from this thing in a long time.

Speaker 2: 36:15

But then we when traction really didn't go anywhere, we decided, you know, let's pivot. Let's do something else. And at that so at that point, I was I was doing a little bit of freelancing to kind of, you know, keep keep some money rolling in. And so yeah. So I think I think that's what it takes.

Speaker 2: 36:38

Like, if you're a freelancer, you do have to do you do have to keep money coming in a little bit until until you actually your product actually has money coming in a little bit because it's kinda scary not having any money rolling in and you're just burning money. Right? Out of I mean, some people say, you know, that they could set up a nest egg, you know, like so, you know, set money aside. Like, as you're working full time or you're freelancing full time, set money aside and kinda build up a nest egg, and that's your runway. Basically, however long you can live on that money, then that's how long you can focus on building your product and launching it.

Speaker 2: 37:18

But I don't know. I mean, to each their own, I guess. Yeah. That's not the way I did it.

Speaker 1: 37:23

Yeah. I mean, I think I I didn't exactly, you know, build a nest egg and say, okay. I'm gonna quit freelancing cold turkey and give myself six months to to work full time on my new product. I didn't really do that. I knew that I was gonna gradually ramp down the client work as I ramped up the the product.

Speaker 1: 37:45

I definitely made a few big mistakes. I think the one thing was I mean, I I did have I did budget a little bit of a nest egg in that I I had planned to invest a little bit in hiring some contractors to help me build the thing that became Restaurant Engine. I think I put I put aside something like 10 k. Like, I I had a bunch of surplus funds from from some client projects that I'd finished up, and I was like, okay. I'm in a good spot financially.

Speaker 1: 38:14

I I have a bunch that I can invest into the into the building and launch of this new SaaS product. But I think one of the biggest mistakes that I made was just the decision to go into SaaS as that product to get me out of client.

Speaker 2: 38:28

As your first product.

Speaker 1: 38:30

Yeah. I I think that's the thing that I'm learning today is for for anyone out there who's who is trying to make that transition, if I were to do it again, I would have started with a much smaller product. Maybe Right. You know, maybe that that book or I I did do WordPress themes, you know, like one off download WordPress themes before Restaurant Engine, but that never really was always kind of a side project that never really went anywhere. Maybe I didn't put enough time and resources into it.

Speaker 1: 39:01

But yeah. Like, I I was just really attracted to the idea of building a SaaS around a hosted niche vertical in WordPress. And I kinda went for that, and I really underestimated that slow that long slow ramp of death that that every SaaS kind of faces. I mean, it takes so long to to just build up yes, it's recurring revenue and that's very powerful and it's very attractive, but making each individual sale, getting each each customer in the door, it's such a harder sell than a than a one off product purchase. You know?

Speaker 1: 39:40

I mean, I I see products out there. I'm, like, on the fence about them. Like, I don't know if this really works for me or not, but it costs $50 or less. It's a one time purchase. I'll just buy it just to test it out.

Speaker 1: 39:54

You know? Like, because I don't have time to kind of do all the extra research. That's how I think that's how a lot of business owners think. You know? But when it's a SaaS, if they're asking $50 a month, I'm gonna take much more time to research and figure out, like, do I really wanna invest all my time in this and become a subscriber?

Speaker 1: 40:14

You know what I mean? So I Yep. And that's what every customer of of any SaaS goes through is they, you know, they understand that it's a subscription that that they're buying into. So it's a much harder sell. There are a lot of more questions to answer.

Speaker 1: 40:27

There, you know, there are a lot more objections you need to overcome. So and then especially trying to sell to, like, a restaurant industry, which I had no experience in. You know? Right. That was a huge learning experience.

Speaker 1: 40:41

So

Speaker 2: 40:42

Right. I think it's yeah. I mean, I'm selling a recurring prod a recurring revenue product as well, but I it's an annual subscription. So and it's not it's it's very different commitment psychologically for the customer because they they pay once and they get it for an entire year. And then after that year, they get to choose whether they continue to get it or not.

Speaker 2: 41:09

Right? So it's it's it's almost less of a commitment because it's very it's more it's more closely aligned with a one time purchase versus kind of a like, every month, it's gonna keep going until I cancel it.

Speaker 1: 41:22

Right.

Speaker 2: 41:23

You know? It's almost like, you know, monthly is like, you know, they got me on the hook kind of thing. You know?

Speaker 1: 41:29

Yeah. Exactly. And and Yeah. WordPress plugins, WordPress products I mean, if you're really using it, of course, you you definitely should be paying for the annual upgrades and get all the latest versions and the and the customer support. But, technically, you could not pay for that and just keep the

Speaker 2: 41:46

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1: 41:46

The plugin and keep using it as long as it works. Of course, it's probably outdated, and it might not be totally secure and all that. But

Speaker 2: 41:53

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 41:55

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 41:55

Yeah. I mean, that's that's the thing. Like, you you are free. Most products most WordPress products will still work after the license expires. You just can't get new versions of the product or request support.

Speaker 2: 42:15

People see that as less of a commitment because they can choose after a year whether they want to continue like whether the support was valuable and whether the updates, if they saw value in that. So it's a very different very different dynamic, I think, than the monthly the monthly thing.

Speaker 1: 42:32

Yeah. Totally. But, know, like, go going back to that idea of if this is your first product and and you're trying to make that transition, and so that means you have a whole chunk of hours every week that you're dedicated to a job or dedicated to freelancing. You've gotta spend that that remaining eight to ten hours or your nights and weekends very, very wisely. So that's not a lot of time, and that's not a lot of creative juice that you have left over to to Right.

Speaker 1: 42:58

To commit to that. So you've gotta start small. Start with a start with a little plug in, start with an ebook, start with a a course or something like that, and just take it one step at a time.

Speaker 2: 43:10

Yeah. The thing about info products as they're called, courses, books, and stuff, you have to be careful with that because until you've established yourself as an authority and you have a mailing list that of people that that see you as an authority on something, you're gonna have a hard time selling that info product.

Speaker 1: 43:35

That that is very true. And that's that's kind of an interesting caveat. I mean, like, I'm I'm doing more a little bit more info products right now and and moving forward, but a lot of it is based on the things that I learned Yeah. Building up a SaaS. You know?

Speaker 1: 43:50

Right. But, I mean, that being said, even if you're a nobody, it's it it can be done if if you have the right topic that you can that you're qualified to teach on. Like, I I see this a lot with, you know, developers. A skilled developer who has a very specialized knowledge, maybe of like a new a new technology, a new language or something like that, you know, you can write the definitive ebook on that. And and just, you know, train the the methods and the craft of coding in that language.

Speaker 1: 44:23

You know?

Speaker 2: 44:24

Yeah. I guess but who are you gonna sell it to? Right? Like, how are you gonna reach people? You still need some kind of marketing strategy with that info product.

Speaker 2: 44:38

Like, if you're just a developer I mean, if you can get it published, you know, through a a book publisher, then hooray. Because they're gonna do all that for you. Right?

Speaker 1: 44:48

Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it depends on on the audience and on the market, you know. Yeah. Sometimes yeah. I mean, you look at someone like like Sasha Grief.

Speaker 1: 44:58

And by the way, he he just put out a really great blog post on Medium today, all about what we're talking about here. I think it's called the product spectrum. I'll link it up in the show notes about, like, do that small product first and then a bigger one and then a bigger one. But he he happened to put out a ebook on Discover Meteor. Mhmm.

Speaker 1: 45:17

Javascript. I don't even know what that is. It's some kind of JavaScript language, whatever. But I I think it's like a very niche language and and it's like I think his ebook is one of the only ebooks on that topic. So when people are cert when developers are searching to learn Meteor

Speaker 2: 45:33

Right.

Speaker 1: 45:33

His is kind of the only thing that that pops up on the radar.

Speaker 2: 45:37

Right. Okay. So so I guess in that situation, it's like you're the only one. So so you can almost you can almost win the organic search race because you're gonna be the only one showing up.

Speaker 1: 45:50

Yeah. Of course. And then, like, well, is there anybody searching for it? So it's, you know, it's gotta it's it's hard. You know, it it it's not the kind of thing that, like, hey, just anyone can do this.

Speaker 1: 46:00

You've gotta be in the right place at the right time.

Speaker 2: 46:02

Yeah. And I would say Sasha has a hell of an audience to begin with.

Speaker 1: 46:08

Yeah. I mean, that's true. But I don't know how how aligned his like, his audience to me seems more like bootstrappers and also designers. And Yeah. I'm not sure how many of them are JavaScript developers.

Speaker 1: 46:21

But Right. True. I don't know. Yeah. But, you know, and and then I think the other big mistake that I made over the last two, three years, and it probably I think it significantly slowed down my ability to fully make that transition, is my lack of focus.

Speaker 1: 46:43

You know, I I think I I I think that I could if if I had stuck solely focused on restaurant engine alone, I could have fully made the transition in, like, less than twelve months. I I think it I think it would have grown twice as large as it did. But instead, I kind of took on a couple of additional products and ventures and and projects. And my thinking then was, hey, I'm gonna throw a bunch of things at the wall and see which one sticks and which one starts to really gain traction. And and then I'll deal with the repercussions later.

Speaker 1: 47:20

And that was a very stupid thing to do. Yeah. And

Speaker 2: 47:26

Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people struggle with that. I've struggled with that personally, because you you get bored. Right?

Speaker 1: 47:33

Like Yeah. That's part of it, you know. But I I think it was also like

Speaker 2: 47:37

Like, the idea is exciting. Right? So you start executing on it, and then you get to this point where, you know, the grunt work begins or, like, it come becomes a flog, and then you kind of well, I got this other great shiny idea. It's really exciting. So then you kinda shelf I'll just shelf this for a while.

Speaker 2: 47:56

Right. And that's that's the

Speaker 1: 47:58

thing, again, about doing a SaaS versus doing, like, a one off product is at least a one off product, like a book or a or a plug in, you can work on that for six months. You can work on it even for just three months. And then Yeah. And then ship it, sell it, and and then if if you have to, or if you need or if you want to, you can kind of move on to another product, or or like a bigger, you know, second step up. Whereas a SaaS, if the the moment you you lose focus on it, and I learned this the hard way, it starts to stagnate.

Speaker 1: 48:36

You know? And if if you're not committing all of your resources to it and and committing to that growth every month, it's gonna stop growing. You know? And then and then once I once I did kind of pull back the reins and come back to focusing on on just the SaaS, that's when I really started to see it grow and have, like, significant progress in growing our team and and everything. So, yeah, that's that's definitely the big word of advice.

Speaker 1: 49:05

If you're freelancing, if you're if you're in a job and you're trying to do something on the side and gain that traction, pick one thing and go with it. Don't don't try to do too much.

Speaker 2: 49:16

Yeah. Definitely. I'm guilty. Guilty. And, I mean, that's that's my history with five projects.

Speaker 2: 49:26

Right? I just I keep I just jump from one to the next. I mean, I I've I've had, like, success, you know, good side projects since two like, since I was in high school, basically. I've been building, like, once I had this thing in high school called mister matchmaker.

Speaker 1: 49:47

What is it? Like a dating website?

Speaker 2: 49:49

And it was awesome, man. It was so cool. I thought it was cool. Anyway, it was the idea. It was like, you ever get those things in, like, middle school or maybe even high school?

Speaker 2: 50:02

They're like these surveys, and you fill them out, and then you send them off. And this and then the computer does its magic, and then they send you back results. And it shows, like, all the out of all the people that submit submitted those surveys in your school, like, who you most compatible with.

Speaker 1: 50:20

I never heard

Speaker 2: 50:21

of before. What it was. That was basically what it was. And it would. And the way it worked is that you would invite people.

Speaker 2: 50:27

So, like like, I would invite all my friends, and then each of those friends would invite their friends. So it actually created a social graph of of of friends and created, like, a little expandable tree so you could see like, if you were matched up with somebody, you could see, like, who you were who you

Speaker 1: 50:45

were The original social network.

Speaker 2: 50:48

Yeah. You could see who you could get introduced to you know, who who could introduce you, basically. But it went nowhere because I did it like, I built it. That that was enough. Like, just to build it, that was, like, plenty.

Speaker 2: 51:03

Like, I was so I was just so proud of myself. And then let's just move on to the next shiny thing for me to build. You know? So if I I I always like, every once in a while, I wish, like, I had someone back then, like a mentor that could have, like, helped me build it into a business, you know, that could have, like because those there wasn't that was just one example. There's others as well that I think could've been something if if it was properly marketed and and all this stuff.

Speaker 2: 51:34

Right? All the stuff I know now.

Speaker 1: 51:36

And that's you know, again, that that is the big benefit of taking you up on on your on your job. If, you know, if you're a developer out there, you're looking for a position, a way to make some money, and, you know, if they can if you can make the cut, you know, it's what you're putting out there with this position in your company, I think is great. And, yeah, I I think it's I think I think it's a great opportunity to to really just to learn from someone who's actually doing it and also gives you an opportunity to to make a little money and support yourself while you do your own thing. I did wanna kinda talk a little bit about big snow tiny comp. That's kind of, you know by the way, you so for those who haven't who don't know, we you know, Brad and I are putting out these videos every couple of weeks.

Speaker 1: 52:23

This one happens to be also broadcast on on my podcast. But, you know, we're trying to get the word out about our little it's called big snow tiny conf. We we did it one year, we're doing it again in January 2015, and it's takes place at Sugarbush, Vermont on a mountain. We're gonna get a house or maybe two. A bunch of web business owners getting together, spent half the day snowboarding or skiing on the slopes, the other half having talks just like this, just talking about business, trying to move our move our businesses forward.

Speaker 1: 52:54

It's kind of like a big mastermind group for a couple days slash, you know, a little bit of a I no. It's not really much of a party, but it's really more of like a business networking kind of kinda conference. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 53:08

Yeah. I mean, it's definitely social, though. I mean, there's

Speaker 1: 53:11

Oh, totally. I mean, we you know?

Speaker 2: 53:12

People are having a few drinks and relaxing and chatting and stuff. So although, I don't know because I wasn't there last year, but that's what what I heard.

Speaker 1: 53:22

Yeah. So Brad's Brad and a couple other guys' flights were canceled getting into Vermont last year, which really sucked. But well, suck for you guys.

Speaker 2: 53:33

Yeah. Then's the breaks. Right? So, I mean, yeah, when you schedule something in the winter, that's those are the risks. So Yeah.

Speaker 2: 53:42

Whatever.

Speaker 1: 53:43

Yep. But Hopefully,

Speaker 2: 53:44

it won't happen this year.

Speaker 1: 53:46

Yeah. But it I mean, it is on. Right? So Jan so what are the actual dates? Did we decide on that?

Speaker 2: 53:53

Yep. We did decide.

Speaker 1: 53:55

Jan what was it again? January? The entertainment area.

Speaker 2: 53:59

Right? So bigsnowtinycomp.com. You can go there, and you can sign up to our email list, which I would recommend. The it shows the dates there as well. So it's January 26 to the twenty ninth.

Speaker 1: 54:10

Yes.

Speaker 2: 54:11

And that's just after there's a WordPress business conference in Phoenix, Arizona, January. So that's, like, just just before big snow. So so, you know, if you're traveling from Europe or or Australia or New Zealand or somewhere far far away and going to Preston Automotive, maybe you want to extend your stay and join us on the mountain.

Speaker 1: 54:45

Make make a stop on the in the Northeast on your way back.

Speaker 2: 54:48

Yeah. Why not? Right? I mean, you already flew halfway around the world. So

Speaker 1: 54:53

Hey. I'd do it. Yeah. So, yeah, January. So this year, we're doing it we're keeping it a little bit farther away from the holidays.

Speaker 1: 55:03

I know last year, we had a bunch of folks that said, you know, I would totally go, but it's last year, we did it in early January, so it was a little bit too close to the New Year. But but, yeah, you know, I think we have a a good group coming together, and so we're recording this right now in in July. We're probably gonna plan on starting to release tickets around, what, September, I think?

Speaker 2: 55:24

Yeah. September sounds good to me. Yeah. I think that we'll probably do early bird as well, like, a little bit of a discount. And and then, you know, depending on volume, we'll we'll increase the price, I guess.

Speaker 1: 55:40

And it is gonna you know, there is gonna be kind of a limit. It it is a very small conference. It's gonna be probably between ten and twenty people. So if you if if it does sell out because we're gonna have to rent a house or maybe two houses, and there are kind of a limited number of beds and whatnot. So get on definitely get on the mailing list if you're even remotely interested, and, you know, you'll find out more details as they as they come out in September in terms of the exact price and logistics.

Speaker 1: 56:10

But, you know, you've got the dates here. Yeah. So I'm I'm really excited about it. I I just remember, you know, before before we did the first one, you you shot me in the I'm about, you know, this idea of putting together this this conference on a ski mountain. I was like, I'm in.

Speaker 1: 56:28

Before you even give me any more details than that, I am yes. The answer is yes.

Speaker 2: 56:34

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I love it. I love the idea.

Speaker 2: 56:38

I really wanna go this year.

Speaker 1: 56:43

It'll happen. You know, we'll be there for sure. It's it's gonna be awesome. And Sugarbush is great, by the way. I think that might have been my first time getting all the way up there.

Speaker 1: 56:52

And it's it's only an hour from the international airport. So if you're flying in, it's pretty easy. If you're on the East Coast like like I am, you know, driving up and, you know, you we'll probably even do some some carpooling and what whatnot. So yeah. Good spot.

Speaker 1: 57:07

Cool. And and the house that we had last year was actually on the slope. So it was like ski on, ski off. Yeah. Of course, last year, was, like, too icy, so we couldn't actually ski off.

Speaker 1: 57:18

But, know, hopefully, the conditions will be better. Everybody will make it. No flight cancellations, and it's gonna be awesome.

Speaker 2: 57:24

Right. Yeah, man. I'm I'm looking forward to

Speaker 1: 57:27

it. Totally. So

Speaker 2: 57:30

Are you are you reading any books right now? Any books I should read?

Speaker 1: 57:33

Yeah. You know, right now, I am reading I'm I'm actually reading two books. I like to go kinda back and forth a little bit. I'm reading The One Thing, which I do recommend. I I like it a lot.

Speaker 1: 57:43

I'm, like, halfway through that one. I don't remember the author's name, but I'll I'll link it up in the show notes. So the one thing, it's kind of about focusing on one thing. You know? In fact, I think the main theme is figuring out what is the one thing that that you can do right now that will make everything else easier or unnecessary.

Speaker 1: 58:07

That's that's the saying that they go with. So there's always one thing that can have that, like, domino effect on on everything else. And the trick is to figure out what it is. Right? And the other book that I'm reading is called Hatching Twitter, which is kind of the the story of how Twitter came together.

Speaker 1: 58:25

I just I just started that one. It's kind of it reads kind of like a novel. So, you know

Speaker 2: 58:29

Oh, yeah. Oh, so it's almost okay. So it's not like yeah. I mean, it reads

Speaker 1: 58:35

like It true story of of how Twitter came to be and how the founders kinda stabbed each other in the back and all that all that stuff. So

Speaker 2: 58:44

I I I read two books. I always have at least two books on the go because I have a fiction book and, like, a some kind of self help book usually or business oriented or something. And what I found was that I wasn't I was barely ever reading, like, the business book because I do most of my reading before bed, and I can't read that kind of stuff before bed. And so I I just recently signed up to Audible. And instead of listening to podcasts all the time when, you know, I can listen to something, I I was I listened to a book, and I've man, it's amazing.

Speaker 2: 59:25

Like, I can't believe my only regret is that I didn't start doing this, like, two years ago.

Speaker 1: 59:29

You know, I I was on Audible for a while. I'm not on it right now. There have been a couple of books that I really enjoyed of, you know, doing the auto audiobook. But then I found a couple of books where it was a good book and it was one that I wanted to read, but the the narrator kinda sucked. Oh, no.

Speaker 1: 59:48

I don't know why, but, like, some narrators, like I don't I don't know what it is. Like, I just can't make a connection when like, a certain tone of voice or they don't kind of I don't know what it is. I I guess, some

Speaker 2: 01:00:03

sometimes I just can't get a connection

Speaker 1: 01:00:05

with the person speaking it. And it's it's always much better when the actual author is is is speaking it, you know, because they really know how to communicate what what they wrote. You know, I I think

Speaker 2: 01:00:15

that's kinda emphasize the right things and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean, I'm really new to this.

Speaker 2: 01:00:20

I I've only I'm only I'm only on my second book, and I'm only halfway through it. Yeah. So I might have just gotten lucky. I listened to the inner game of tennis, which is was amazing.

Speaker 1: 01:00:31

What is that called?

Speaker 2: 01:00:33

Inner game of tennis. Tennis.

Speaker 1: 01:00:36

Oh, cool.

Speaker 2: 01:00:37

Yeah. It's the the inner game of tennis. It's it's about it's mostly about psychology and, like, how you think about competition. So it does relate to business as well And kind of like most or the big kind of takeaway from the book is that competition or the the way of looking at competition isn't about, you know, if I beat this person, I'm better than them, which is what most people actually think. Right?

Speaker 2: 01:01:04

That's what competition's about. It's about pushing the other person to be better or and and having them push you to be better. And so by competing and and, you know, competing hard, you're accomplishing that. And so yeah. It's just a different way of thinking about competition.

Speaker 2: 01:01:25

So it was really cool.

Speaker 1: 01:01:26

Nice.

Speaker 2: 01:01:27

And I'm I'm reading who the a method for hiring right now, and that's been pretty good as well. The big takeaway so far so far is, like, the networking thing that they mentioned. Like, the number one thing you should be doing to ensure that you have a steady stream of talent coming in wait. And you should be doing that, apparently. I'm not.

Speaker 2: 01:01:53

But you should be every week, like, fostering your network of talented people you know and expanding to people that in their network, the talented people in those people's network that they know. You should be asking them for a list of those people and expanding your network and and continuously keeping in touch with these people. Just just saying hello.

Speaker 1: 01:02:16

Yeah. Even if you don't have the need right now. It's just and I think a perfect example is what you're doing right now with, you know, you know, putting out the blog post today. Yeah. You know, it's not just a jobs listing on your site.

Speaker 1: 01:02:30

It's it's a story, and it's a you're putting out value and and, you know, and I'm sure that you're you're probably attracting much better candidates just thanks to the to the blog post. Right?

Speaker 2: 01:02:43

Well, so far, I only have one submission today after that blog post, which is kinda surprising.

Speaker 1: 01:02:48

Well, just post it today. So I'm sure you'll

Speaker 2: 01:02:50

have Yeah. I mean, Friday too. People take Friday off sometimes. So yeah. Hopefully, by, like, mid next week, I'll have a few more people in the in the pipe, I guess, you call it.

Speaker 1: 01:03:03

Very cool.

Speaker 2: 01:03:04

People in the pipe. That's terrible way way to say it.

Speaker 1: 01:03:09

Wait. Where where is this going? So we are coming up on the sixty minute mark. I I guess we should probably call it a day.

Speaker 2: 01:03:16

And Sure. Yeah. Sounds good.

Speaker 1: 01:03:18

So yeah. You know, Brad, great talking to you as always, and best of luck with with Delicious Brains. And I will see you in Sugarbush, Vermont, and I'm sure we'll talk before then.

Speaker 2: 01:03:29

Yeah. For sure. And thanks for having me on, Brian, and best of luck with your business. Cool. Alright.

Speaker 2: 01:03:35

Cheers.

Speaker 1: 01:03:41

Alright. That was a good one. Went a little long, but hopefully, you found some key takeaways. Hey, if you made it this far, why not head over to iTunes and leave a five star review? I'd really appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 01:03:51

It would definitely help the show out quite a bit. So all the notes for this episode are at castjam.com/30three. That's also where you can join thousands of others on my newsletter and receive free tips and resources in your inbox every week. Alright, have a good one.