Bootstrapped Web

Alright. Bootstrapped Web, we're back on it. Jordan, how's it going, buddy? You are over there in in Chicago.

Yes, yes. Coming at you from a new studio in Downtown Evanston, Illinois, where I have a co working office until our house is ready and then my home office is ready.

You plan to work in house primarily?

Yes, yes, it has. It has. I finally have like my own office, like a bedroom of my own.

How's the new house?

The new house is great. It's a lot of fun. It's just been an exciting few days. We just got here five or six days ago. And so I just saw the house for the first time, like in real life, not on a FaceTime tour.

Same with the kids. Any surprises, good or bad? I mean, the neighborhood is beautiful. We have work to do, which we've never done in the house. So the last house we bought, it was like done.

So we just moved in and didn't have to change anything.

Yeah, we had a ton of work to do in this house, right when we moved in, including making my office here.

Okay. Cool. Yeah. Only thing I did with the last house was I added like 20 dimmers because I can't stand bright light.

Oh yeah. That's a big problem in my office here. Like right now it's it's afternoon and for now, rest of the day, it gets like it looks like I'm in a cave over here. If I turn the lights on then then it's like way too bright.

Too bright. Yes. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm big on lighting. I don't know what happened over the last few years but now I care about lighting a lot.

Listeners can't see this but I just got these lights on top of my monitor. It's not a ring. It's like a bar, but anyway.

Okay. Okay. Good. Nice. The problem is that we can't get into the house until like October 15.

So,

you're, you're in like a rental.

There are no rentals. There are no Airbnbs. There's nothing. We are in a residence in long term hotels. Wish me luck.

Those are actually pretty comfortable. Like there's a lot of these, like, there are these like hotels that are trying to compete with Airbnbs. So they're like an actual suite.

It's like one of those. So I think we're going to make it fun, you know, waffle breakfast for the kids every morning, that like whole type of thing. But it's good if it is fun to change your environment. Right. I haven't done it in a while.

And yeah, you kind of get like new energy and I feel good motivated.

I only just recently, like in the last two weeks started, restarted what I used to do before COVID, which was at least three times a week, go work over at Starbucks.

Yeah. Get out of the house.

You know? I mean, it's not like I was avoiding Starbucks in the last year or two but I had I hadn't gotten back into the habit of working somewhere else other than home since COVID. That's my like go to energy boost. Just like if I'm not focusing, if I'm not being productive, it's like, go, go somewhere else.

I have. I have. I'm still in the struggle to get back into a productive mode because packing your house is an exhausting, exhausting experience. And then we went away to Michigan where I promptly got COVID and like sequestered myself into a bunker for a week and it wrecked me. I'm still I'm just getting to 100% now.

It's been like fifteen days. And then we moved here and then I get this coworking office set up yesterday and I'm like, it's tough to be productive in that environment and I don't have a choice. So I've been decently productive, but I don't feel in the groove yet.

I'm a few weeks out after COVID now. I'm basically all recovered, but I keep wondering, you know, about this idea of brain fog There I don't know if it's just summertime and the fact that it's so hot that I feel a little bit slower than usual in terms of my daily productivity and focus and I don't know I don't know if it's that or if there's some brain effects after COVID.

I hate it. My illness was 100% from the neck up. I had nothing, nothing, no cough, no lung, nothing. It was just brain dead. I was so foggy.

Could barely walk. And coming out of that took forever. It took absolutely forever. And now it's great to get my brain back, but I'm with you. Sometimes I'm not like a 100% there.

It's very, very frustrating.

Well, let's try and focus on some business talk here.

Yes, that's right. That's right. It's been a while. So we got, got a lot of updates. It's tough to even know where to begin.

One big one for me, think for you too, right? Is like company focusing on on the company itself. I I love this idea that Jason Fried has talked about in the past, like treating your company like a product. And for the first time for Zip Mess so I grew the team in the last month. And I feel like it's like all of a sudden we actually have a team.

I mean I've had a team with develop with the two developers. Basically for the first year and a half it's been me plus two developers in India and our entire company culture is GitHub issues essentially. And so it's, you know, there's not a whole lot there. Really no need to spend much time on like project management tools and documenting processes and caring that much about company culture and that sort of stuff. I think I talked about it last time.

Claire Emerson joined the team. She is the, marketing coordinator working with me on just coordinating all all of our marketing projects. I replaced our SEO content shop. I didn't really like the initial direction they were going in. So I brought in a new SEO strategist.

He he's on retainer doing keyword like more technical keyword research. A writer that I've worked with in the past has has come on to up the quality on our writing. And then I brought on a VA to help with some influencer outreach and contacts research that sort of stuff and so now I have all these people well the the VA and her name is Aliyah and Claire, they're like in our Slack and in Notion so I I consider them team members. And so now we have like a more of a team atmosphere. You know, we we've committed to to Notion as our source of truth so like I I've been working a lot on like marketing processes.

I can get more into that but just on the company side like I've been documenting a lot of processes in Notion and then we're using a lot of Notion to manage our marketing projects and communicate on that kind of stuff. I'm trying to do things differently in Zip Message than I've done in my previous teams and businesses because building a SaaS is a much different type of thing where we're literally building new things and we're shipping new things every month on marketing, on brand, on product so I need to be more present with the team than I've been in the past. Back in audience ops I was checked out a lot of the time you know because it was like more audience.

This is process oriented.

This is like I'm in it. These are my teammates, we're collaborating right and we're across five continents which is crazy and we do it entirely asynchronous. So we're about three or four weeks into this now, It's weird like all you other SaaS companies, this is not new to you but for me it's new. We have a Friday weekly update like kind of a stand up but it's all asynchronous. We post we post on zip message and you know five minutes on what you worked on this week, what you're working on next week, some blockers.

I I include some updates and company updates and stuff like that and then, added photo Friday so everyone's sharing a photo and, you know show us where you live, show us what you're up to. And it's been fun. It's like, I'm not used to having these, like, like I have to show up for these too and I have to post my updates too.

Know, it is tricky because sometimes you don't want to do it personally, but you know, you should do it, but then does it feel strange to make other people do something that you don't really want to do, you know it's my hesitation. Yes, it's really,

I really always hesitate to like ask people to put in extra time on things because like we we do natural updates in our project work. Whether it's in a GitHub issue or you know, we have individual projects where me and Claire are going back and forth on zip message. So we already know what we're working on together. But the purpose of this is so that the product team and the marketing team know what each other are or what they're not into silos and it's been fun to get the folks from India like involved and seeing more of their culture and stuff and Aliyah our assistant she's in South Africa and Claire's in Australia so it's just been fun to we're working on a lot of projects especially on the marketing side and it's just been pretty cool to like like all of a sudden in the last two months I've been spending almost all my time on that kind of stuff. Like company processes, marketing processes, documenting where things are happening.

And it has taken me off of the product. But now now that a lot of that stuff is built and up and running and and Claire's off and running with this stuff, I can start to turn my focus back to product now.

Yeah. It's almost like it's taken your attention toward a different product. The the the company Company. Product. That's right.

I hear you. What happened to me when on vacation and you know, you always want to read a good book on vacation. So I got a new book called The Founders, which is the story of PayPal.

Oh yeah. That's

it's it's it's a good book and it's a fascinating story, right? It's just cool to read about the history of this stuff back then and how it came together. And, you know, it's like Elon Musk's company, x.com and Max Levchin and David Sachs and that company called Confinity. And they came together to form PayPal because they kind of it made sense for them to merge. But how it all happened and all this stuff and basically reading about people who were in very similar shoes as us, like thinking through all this stuff, product, these gambles, the risks, the stress, the infighting, the personal stuff.

So that just triggered an endless fountain of ideas. And I basically realized, oh my God, what have I been doing? I forgot to mix in business books and get the energy and the benefit of the ideas that come up for your own business as you're reading business books. Like I kind of like went off that for a while and I, you know, I've read fiction and sci fi, which is fun.

I'm back on sci fi now for the first time in a long

time. Mean, that's the

Hail Mary project.

Okay, cool. Cool.

Yeah. And the Mets. I'm watching a lot of Mets. That's been that's been fun too.

A lot of Mets. I see. So where that led me to is is thinking, okay, I need a book now on company culture, making work more joyful, just focusing on that because we have we have something like 24 people and I feel too absent. And I think that's a theme for me because I have genuinely been absent for a while. Right.

I can't talk in too much detail, but I went bye bye. I went fundraising and fundraising was intense because the market completely turned and it went from like, well, this should be easy. Let's go talk to a few people and, you know, gather the checks and cash them.

It'll be done by the end of the week.

Right. It went from that to, this is serious. This is existential. A lot of the investors that would have been potential investors just got taken out because they weren't investing. It went real serious.

And because of that, it required 100% of my focus. And when that happens, you know, you kind of lose touch. I lost touch with the team. I lost touch with the product. I lost touch with what needs to happen.

I lost touch with like the the flow. I mean, I was still in there and doing these calls and meetings and everything, but my attention was on the priorities number one, two and three, which were all the same thing. It was all fundraising. So recently I have been able to focus on that a lot less. And when I refocused on the company and the product is when I realized, oh, I got I got work to do.

I got work to do on the culture. I got work to do on the communications. I work to do on making things more fun. And I have work to do on hiring. And so right now that attention is toward sales, marketing, go to market, customer success, solutions engineering, basically the systems in place to grow quickly.

I'm curious, what is solutions engineering?

So for us, we have a relatively complex product. It's not crazy complex, but it does require some engineering work with almost every merchant.

So like on onboard them and get them hooked up.

That's right. To onboard them, to test, to make sure it works with this integration or that integration and get them this thing and the button we want over here. And can we make it look like this? So there's just some engineering involved in onboarding and right. That shouldn't be the backend engineering team.

It shouldn't be the salespeople. It shouldn't be customer support. It's kind of like its own thing. So it's an interesting role and we hired someone there a month ago and he's been great. Greg.

Well, you know, on that, on that role, I could see this like in, in company as we evolve and I think a lot of SaaS, you know, there's this whole space of no code, right? And I'm also seeing quite a few no code consultants now. Like people who just specialize in like hire me and I'll hook up your all of your Zapier Zaps to something. Hook up your email marketing all this. And I I think that that can be a a role for SaaS to do that role that you're talking about solutions and like you know there's a lot of SaaS doing onboarding and setup, but hiring someone who is just in charge of like, oh they need this, They need our tool to hook up with that.

So hook up this complex Zapier connection.

Yes. Anytime we have left that entirely up to the prospect, the probability of them getting fully onboarded and successful is just much lower.

Yeah. And I mean, that's what we're doing right now. It's like, yeah, sure. Go check out our Zapier integration, check out the docs over here. Good luck.

Like, that's what we're doing right now. And it's not ideal. Yeah.

Yeah. So it has felt great and also a little scary in the last few weeks to kind of refocus and realize, Oh, we're behind on this and this and this. And at the same time, it's really energizing to get job ads up and start hiring people and interviewing people. Right now we're hiring for marketing three sales roles and customer success.

How are you building out the sales team? What's the strategy there? Like, do you have like, what do they call it? Like, you know, farmers and closers and what's the

Yeah. So this was so we we had and currently have sales like up and running. It's not built out, but we do have two people on it. We have the person we hired originally for biz dev is now focused on sales because it makes sense for right now. And we have an AE account executive in sales and the two of them got the function off the ground.

And so what that meant was at first our strategy was let's go manual. Let's send thoughtful emails that increase the likelihood of getting into live conversations. And then let's learn from the market. Let's see what their desires are, what their blockers are, what words they're using, which features they're focused on. Let's like learn before we go out and start sending a lot of emails and cold outreach and that sort of thing.

So we did that for a while and then we took all those learnings and then got data sources. So how do we get contact information? How do we get lists? How do we do that in a much more scalable way?

I've been working on a lot of that this past month.

Okay. So we have, you know, we've got our tech stack and we've got a decent number of emails going out every day. Not a lot, but not a little. And that has worked. So all of sudden we have a bunch of opportunities.

And so when I turned back to focus on that, I basically went and talked to a bunch of peers, a bunch of other founders, anyone who would talk to me that has direct SaaS sales experience like in 2022, like now, like what is actually working and happening now? My friend Jimmy over at Sendlane was like my jackpot. He has been focused on this for years and they got it to click. And he basically downloaded every lesson learned, mistakes, screw up, just everything. And I just took notes and I was like, thank you.

You know, like an hour conversation that was just worth like infinity on avoiding mistakes. And that was really good. But then there's still an endless number of questions. Okay, what should the team structure be? What should the ratio of AEs to SDRs be?

What should the compensation be? How do we come up with quotas? I just had an endless number of questions. So I had two choices, right? I either answer those questions with a full time, more senior sales manager or I kind of get things started on my own and then hire manager later, because right now we need production.

We need people who are going to go out and generate opportunities and close deals. I don't want to hire the management layer, right? The management layer is the most expensive layer and the least productive when it comes to actual like opportunities. So I felt kind of stuck. So what I did was I got one of the calls that and people I got introduced to was someone who was just coming out of a of an account executive manager role, basically the same role that we would hire for as the manager level.

And we had a conversation and we were both very honest with each other. The honest agreement, the honest like balance was that we're not quite ready to hire a manager and he wasn't quite ready to join because we're a bit early on. And, you know, people like that don't want to join until like things are rocking and rolling. So we said, hey, let's do a little consulting arrangement. And so now he's our consultant and he's the person I go to with those thousand questions.

So now we're hiring and he's helping in the hiring process and the job ads and the, you know, all of that, the interviews. And we're building up this core sales team that's going to be comprised of two AEs, two account executives and two SDRs. And he's helping with the compensation structure and so on and laying out the playbooks, the scripts, right? One of those lessons that I'm happy to share a lot of these lessons as I like, I have a lot of lessons right now and I'm about to go test them. So we'll find out what works for us and what doesn't work for us.

But a lot of it is a lot of it is consensus. One of those things is the reason you and I, and a lot of other people listening, the reason you get a lot of phone calls these days is because phone calls work. So we have been sending emails and our conversion rate

Ask for a call.

We've been sending emails, asking for demos, but the conversion rate at that first stage of the funnel of you are a prospect in our CRM to you become a demo. That conversion rate is way too low. It's like 2% and it should be closer to 10%. But the way that every single person I talked to that has this thing working is nice emails. But the way you actually get people on a demo is you call them up and say, I'd like to schedule a demo next week.

Good old fashioned cold call.

That's, that's well, it's cold calling mixed into the cadence of the outbound sequence. Right. So it's call, leave a voicemail, send an email about your voicemail, call the next day, send an email the day after call. And that is universal from everyone I talk to is you can send all the emails you want, but you'll never get the conversion rate at that first step of the funnel anywhere near where you need it to be without mixing phone calls in.

I've been going deep on a similar thing. We're doing cold outreach and we're doing for direct customers but also for for influencer relationships and yeah I've been experimenting and and kind of tooling together different different scripts and and different levels of personalization like these people are more important. Let's spend more time personalizing for them and then mixing in social media engagement like send them an email, give them a follow and a like on Twitter the same day that we sent them an email.

Yep. Connect on LinkedIn.

And that seems like just a tactic but you have to set up systems and processes for it to queue up the task for the VA to go do that at the right time and and so I've been spending a lot of time working that stuff out and I think we got a pretty good system going and then same thing on the on the marketing side like on the content side like have having not just a writer but having an like starting with an SEO keyword research and prioritizing our keywords and then handing it off to Claire and me to to put in like some product positioning decision making then over to the writer then back to the start the optimization then getting like just working all that stuff out. It's been a been a process.

Yeah. That feels like our, you know, our jobs now in terms of working on the company is setting up those processes, setting up the systems to measure them, and then setting up the accountability measures to see what's going right and not right and making adjustments sooner rather than later.

But the one interesting thing with the outreach, I've had some positive direct responses from it like and what I currently do, I don't know if we'll do this forever, but like I'm asking for them to just reply to the email and then I reply back to them with a personalized zip message video for them. I'm looking at the analytics and I see more traffic to the site than the number of people who actually reply. So there's definitely people who don't reply, but they do go check out the tool.

Right. That means they are in the process in one way or another. And just sending up another follow-up email is just not going to convert very many. So what I'm trying to do is be very okay with things that I did wrong and being okay listening to things that maybe I wouldn't naturally go toward. Like there is a reason effectively every single VC backed SaaS company with good growth has a sales team and uses these tactics.

Like it is one of the things in this business that you can control and measure optimize over time. And so like Cardhook didn't work that way. And that's cool for Cardhook. But that does not mean it doesn't mean anything for Rally. Right.

Maybe later we'll get this big inbound engine because everyone knows how awesome we are. Like my story right now. I'm putting all of that crap away and I'm ready to run Mr. Jason Lemkin, Sastra playbook. Just tell me what I need to do, how I need to pay and how I need to set things up.

And like I'm doing away with any of like my preconceived notions.

Yeah. I've sort of settled into like a few strategy, like marketing channels that I'm trying to build up with people and processes. But one is the content SEO. I think that they're, especially with the area where we're starting to focus like there there's a lot of opportunity there but then more is is this influencer outreach. Some of it is just through personal or personal relationships but like actually having a system to try to drive more of this, more opportunities, people who reach our ideal customers.

And I'm doing some like guest articles and webinars and partnerships there. And then the next piece is going to be like audience and community of our, like bringing our best customers together. Because we have a target customer who is like they are all about recommending tools to each other and that happens in communities and we should be in those communities but we should also start to build up our own sort of moat with, with our own sort of thing so.

Is building your own community?

I think so. We haven't started it yet but that's gonna be like now we have content and influencers, these are engines and processes up and running with people running them. The next one that we're gonna look at is is building up our own like audience brand assets, whether it's like a niche newsletter with a with a niche community, maybe a niche podcast interviewing our best customers.

I questions on that. So I guess my question would be centered around where are you focusing your content? At what part of the funnel? So like I have maybe like two questions there, right? So the first question is right now our assumption is that we need to do we need like a two step approach.

We need to make sure the market knows that they need a checkout solution, that they can't just accept what the platform gives them. It's not good enough to compete with your Shopify competitors. You need a checkout solution. And then second step is that you should choose route for your checkout solution. Now in that, like where do you aim the content?

Like what, you know, we want to diversify and we want like this mixture.

For us, for search content like, and that's the articles that we're developing. That's like purely aimed at search. And for that, we're trying to go, we're starting with bottom of funnel intent.

Okay, so you have a healthy search volume in your area.

Yeah. I mean, we're working, we're working through it right now, but there, yeah, there are topic and keywords that have search volume that are pretty clear intent. Like someone is searching for tools in this space. We got to be in that conversation, but it's not just writing the articles. It's also link building and getting doing, doing outreach to get mentions and other articles that, that people are searching for.

And so, so there's some of that. And then the audience and and community stuff I see is a much longer term strategy but one that if if we can start to build into it, it will be very valuable for us. We haven't even really started on it but it's it's also like we're starting to niche down in one area and I also need to be talking to more of these ideal people especially ones with large audiences and having a just having a podcast and inviting them on to a podcast. It's like the easiest way to get them on a call. It's such a win win win, right?

Because it's

because they actually want to be on podcasts.

Right? Yeah, exactly. And they are people who have audiences and they grow by being on other people's podcasts.

And then they share it with their audience.

And they share it with their audience and I get to have a conversation with them and they are a perfect person to be talking to our ideal customers because they are our ideal customers.

Right. Okay. So that's a nice alignment overall right there.

Yeah.

Right. Like our, our customer has no interest in being on podcasts. The manager of a big commerce store.

And I'm not talking about my open threads podcast. That's like a fun side hustle. I'm talking about like a new brand.

It's the message focused.

It'll be like a niche brand podcast, probably a newsletter, probably some some other brand assets. Clara's gonna be really running with this stuff but we're gonna get more into that in the next few months. For for right now, the first priority was let's like you were saying, like like, okay, all that stuff is nice, long term, good good to build into. But right now, the the first priority is like, we we need to be on the most important search keywords and that's search intent for looking for tools for this. We need to be have pages that that get that traffic and doing direct outreach to people who can give us a spike in visibility, influencer partnerships, guest article opportunities showing up in their newsletter, showing up on their podcast that like So

that's like, it's like biz dev of sorts, right? It's not direct sales directly to a potential customer. It is outreach to other people in the same

We're doing both. Have, I have two campaigns. One is, and there's still sub broken up into different segments but like one is directly at people who we identify as like this is a perfect customer for Zip Messages. They should just know that we exist. Let's let's do some outreach to them.

The other one is like contacts who we know are influencers who who have large audiences of our best customers. So we have a different campaign trying to start relationships with them you know and I don't I don't know if that stuff is directly successful yet or not but I I have had some positive responses. I'm starting to see some traffic from that source and I see sign ups that like I'm seeing an increased number of sign ups who are our ideal target customer and I'm I'm convinced that a lot of them are coming as a result of some of these outreach emails we send in. Right. So I don't know.

Right.

Like it's doing its thing We're still on on the earlier earlier side.

All these channels but like these are systems that I've been spending a lot of time building so that like now that stuff will run. A team is overseeing it. A lot of it is automated. I can start to turn back to the product.

Back to the product product. So in the conversations that I'm having in like Slack communities, everyone's interested in this stuff. So I think, I think you and I, we're going to keep talking about this over the next for sure. One thing that you did not mention, and it's funny that you didn't mention, and I think about all the time. I think it's because you're naturally very good at it and I'm very bad at it is the bottom of the funnel product marketing.

It's almost naturally. Like you build up a knowledge base and videos and a focus on the features and how do you use them and all this stuff almost like as you're building the product.

I do, I do do it as I build the product. It's that part is a grind though. I hate, I hate doing it.

Is that right?

Yeah, like like the KB article and the video how to video and preparing the GIF and tweeting it and like yeah, every time I finish a big new feature that that's gonna be like announceable, like promotable.

You do

all The of that final the final steps like on the same day that I deploy it to the app, I'm also gonna I I have optimized my workflow with it but like I'll record, so alright the last feature we just shipped is drafts. So now now you can save a message as a draft before before sending it into a conversation. And this was the precursor to what we're working on now which is video editing and audio editing. So now you can next you're gonna be able to take these drafts and cut snippets out

of Okay. Okay.

I to cut off the the first minute or the middle minute.

Right. So just that though, you do a good job of you acknowledge that drafts, which doesn't sound like this huge feature. It is feature worthy. It is worth focusing on and identifying. I feel like I do the engineering team such a disservice and a product team that we don't break up our product into these individual micro features and use them.

Normally they're bigger one big thing but like drafts wasn't a major, wasn't a major need, wasn't a big request but editing is and technically we can't have editing unless we have a concept of saving Right, that concept. First, So we had to and building drafts was a big thing in itself so that took several weeks first. We shipped that and now now we're we're halfway done building the editing piece. Going back to your other thing like so when we shipped the feature, usually it looks like I started off, I scope it out, I design it, I do a little bit of the code work, then I hand it to the devs, they do the the hard back end gnarly work. I come in and I finish it and clean it up and polish it up and get it shipped ready.

We do a lot of testing. We write a lot of tests. Then we ship it and then that day, I will record. I probably record for about five to eight minutes of of me using it and then I edit it down to a one to two minute walk through of of the new feature. And out of that video, I also cut a small GIF that's that's tweetable and then I take those assets, I put them into an email newsletter, I schedule that for the next day.

And then the knowledge base is now getting a little bit messy but if it's a totally new feature that people are might need help with, I always write up a KB article and I embed the video. So the video I just said, like I will put that on YouTube, drop the YouTube into the KB article and then write some notes so that so that we have it. And I do try to knock out all that stuff as soon as we ship it because if I don't do it that day, I'm never gonna do it. That to me is what shipping is. It's it's it's launching the feature.

That's part of the process.

And then just get the get the other little stuff out because I wanna be done and move on. Yeah. And that's it.

Yeah. Well you you kind of need it to be done because you need to like fold up your Swiss army knife. Right. And like, like, okay, that package has been completed. I used all my tools.

I got the development out. I got the feature out. I got the marketing of it out. I got the knowledge base out.

And I mean, going forward, like a lot of that stuff, I think maybe I'll still record a quick video, but maybe I'll start to hand it off to Claire and she'll handle the other pieces, you know? Yeah.

This marketing hire that we started interviewing one person, we'll put the job ad up and so on, but it really feels like this. There's a product marketing focus, you know, for sure. Just because there's so much value to get out of the things that we're shipping that we're not getting value out of from a marketing sense. It's just, it's shooting ourselves.

The product marketing. So like when with that, I think about the marketing website and the product pages, the homepage and I do all that for ZipMessage and that takes me longer especially if it's a whole new direction. So but right now we are going in a new direction in the next few months and so I'm starting to in phases like right now I'm building out just a just a one pager to start to tease some of the new stuff that's coming and then later I'm gonna need to do a revamp of the website again to focus on the on the new direction for the product. That's that's a longer process. I think that we have a good design now.

I spent a ton of time on the current design, the font and branding and the and the layouts and stuff and man I'll I'll say it again, Tailwind CSS is such a godsend but like that enables me to really take what we have, rearrange and create a new page like in a day. I'll I'll hand code it but it's like that's pretty fast for me now. Cause I don't have to go. I don't have to spend time like picking fonts and picking colors and stuff. That's all done.

I just need to write new copy if I'm launching a new page.

Cool. Well, I feel like we could talk for another hour and keep going. And I'm excited to get back on track. Of course, next week I'm away, but when I'm back after that, great man. Great to catch up.

Good conversation. Thanks for listening everyone. Hit us up with some questions.

What else should we talk about? What you hearing or not hearing from us that are, that you feel like we're leaving out? That would be good to know.

From the sense I get from talking to people, people are focused. Things got real. The market kind of shifted, but it didn't implode. It's not like everything's over and everything feels a little more serious right now. And like it's go time.

You know, I feel like I get the sense of that from friends. When I started talking about like the sales approach, everyone's like, hell yes. We want to hear more about that. This is what we're doing. And all of a sudden you could see people are really focused on getting their business in the shape that they want it to be.

Yeah, exactly. Mean the economy is gonna do what it's gonna do. Feel like everyone has mostly been reporting that like, you know, numbers are down from what they usually are, but like, you know, I see that and yeah, like my numbers aren't great either, but it's like there, there's not much we can do about that except for just work on on the things that we can control. Yeah.

Let's do it. Good to catch up. Thanks everyone.

Later.