[35] Why Do an Info Product?
This is Bootstrap Web episode 35 where Jordan and I will answer the question, why do an info product? Welcome to Bootstrap Web. It's the program for you, the founder who learns by doing as you bootstrap your business online. I'm Brian.
Speaker 2:And I'm Jordan. Let's do
Speaker 1:this. Alright. So Jordan, what's what's the update for for this week?
Speaker 2:Sure. So I've got a few things going on. The big thing is that I just moved. I've been traveling around a lot the past eighteen months as you know, but I finally got settled down in beautiful Portland, Oregon. And very happy to be here and feeling very calm and very productive finally.
Speaker 2:So That's awesome. Thanks. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Mean, like, you guys your your family has been, man, on the move for what? Like the last year? More than a year?
Speaker 2:Eighteen months. It's crazy. Months.
Speaker 1:Every every couple months. Yeah. You and the kids going around to live in, like, a different live and work out of a different city. Yes. And Two kids,
Speaker 2:two dogs, Airbnb, co working places. Yeah. Feel like we should definitely get further into it in in one of these episodes.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Definitely.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Focus on freedom and the lifestyle that the Internet provides or can provide.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Definitely. But now you're all settled in in Portland, Oregon for the foreseeable future.
Speaker 2:Yes. And happy to be here. You know, we're in the middle of like the twenty or so days of Portland summer so we're enjoying it. It's beautiful out. Now, on the work front, I am right in the middle of this course, this sales funnel course that I launched.
Speaker 2:And as we discussed last week, I launched the course without having it totally built. So I'm building the modules and the content as I go. So I'm right in the middle of that. I find myself stressed because I know people are waiting on it and the expectations are high. And at the same time, I'm finding that I'm really enjoying the work, which is a good sign.
Speaker 2:And that because of that pressure combined with the fact that I just enjoy it, I'm producing great stuff that I'm very proud of. So that feels good even if I am up to 11:00 at night for, you know, most of the nights during the week. That's that's okay.
Speaker 1:That's what it's all about, man. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Sometimes that's what you gotta do. On CartHook, the software front, really picking up momentum, very excited, signing customers after their free trials. My free trial to paid conversion rate is just like, I couldn't be happier. It's over 80%.
Speaker 2:Wow. It's just like a fluke when someone doesn't convert and I think that has left to do with my pricing. But this week, today, an hour before we're recording this podcast, I just signed up my biggest client yet.
Speaker 1:Wow. Congratulations.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. Very exciting. That is And then thank you. Yeah. It's exciting.
Speaker 2:Pumped
Speaker 1:up. Wow. 80% conversion rate. I mean, I I think my my guess correct me if I'm wrong, but I I guess that's a lot due to your kind of very hands on manual sales customer acquisition kind of approach? You know, you're doing a lot of like kind of cold outreach?
Speaker 2:And that is it it's not just that. It's when somebody signs up, I talk to them. Right. Anybody who creates an account and I have a phone conversation with them turns into a free trial unless of course we can't integrate with their platform or something screwy. And then if they start off, talk to me on the phone, start their free trial, then I I think it's I think it's gonna be over 80%.
Speaker 2:It's really like Yeah. Astronomical just because the pricing model is very no lose and the product itself is quantifiable that where you can see how much money it's making you. So those two combined people you know, why why would I not?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Think we're gonna have to, you know, do a whole show on on that. I mean, I I kinda found the same thing in in restaurant engines, like every customer who we talk to and we do a consultation with, they not only sign up but they don't cancel either, you know. Right. So
Speaker 2:It's huge. It's huge. Yeah. And I have people that I haven't spoken to in months but they keep paying and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that we created a real relationship at the beginning and now they know me and trust me and like me and they'll cut other things out before they cut me out because we're kind of buddies. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes. So I think that would make for a good topic. Yeah, just not avoiding the phone, talking to people on purpose, forcing people to talk to you. Yeah, think that's a great topic and one that a lot of people avoid. And then finally, the last thing just, you know, if I don't need, you know, one more thing on my brain, I'm doing a mix a Mixergy interview in less than a week.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Can't wait
Speaker 2:for And I'm I'm really excited and I feel a lot of pressure around it because I'm not like this big success story. Like, I just sold my company for a whole bunch of money and not let me tell you the story of how it happened. This is a little different. This is you know, if I'm just gonna be honest, I'm still in the hustle like most people in the Mixergy audience, and I still wanna make sure that the interview is great and people get a lot out of it. So I've just been doing a lot of thinking.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, what can I talk about, how to talk about it, which stories to tell?
Speaker 1:So you've got so so you haven't done the interview yet. Right? I have
Speaker 2:I've done the pre interview which is very helpful with Jeremy who is phenomenal.
Speaker 1:The
Speaker 2:guy Yeah. Is And that was I met Jeremy when
Speaker 1:when I did the just I I did I did the course, like, last year and he's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Just like watching their whole process for producing these things, it's it's pretty impressive.
Speaker 2:Yes. It is. And and the individuals involved. I mean, Jeremy is just great. As soon as I talked to him, we hit it off and then he connected me with other people and yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know what I love about Mixergy is is like every time I I assume that I knew the who the guest and I knew their story before and then I listened to their Mixture G interview, it's like, I learned like 10 new things about them. Andrew has a way of like, you know, just asking the right questions and digging in where other people have never dug in before, you know. I I remember that happened with with Brennan Dunne. I mean, you and I both know Brennan.
Speaker 1:I thought I knew a whole lot about his history and Yeah. We talked to part of, you know, his story that I just never you know, Andrew Warner was the one who who Right. You know, open open that stuff up.
Speaker 2:I think that's the beauty of long format interviews where it's patient and there's no rush and it's not sound bites. It's really stories. And, you know, I think there's also a little bit of the, you know, when we read about successful people, we kind of see their highlight reel. Right. And we live our own behind the scenes ugly day to day every detail life.
Speaker 2:So Mixergy kind of helps bring that real side of it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Totally. Yep.
Speaker 2:So, you know, that's it. Not busy or anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. No. Not not much. Nothing going on How
Speaker 2:about you, Brian? Talk to us.
Speaker 1:What are we up to? Let's see. What do we got? I just launched a new email course all about how to productize your service. And I'm I'm really happy with this one.
Speaker 1:I I that came out a a few days ago on my site, CashJam. And I'm actually really excited about this one. I mean, number one, the day that I launched it, man, I've kind of blown away with the number of people opting in. I mean, you know, it's a free course but it's not the first free course that I put out but I'm definitely seeing a much higher conversion rate. I mean so actually yesterday was the day that it went live and I think something like 70 or 80, maybe maybe a little bit more opt ins within the first, you know, few hours of that going live.
Speaker 1:And that's quite a bit more than, you know, I I probably average something like 10 or so a day.
Speaker 2:Where those people coming from that
Speaker 1:A lot came from my newsletter. I I announced it through the newsletter, but I I think also, you know, I've been seeing some increase in traffic and and whatnot. But I think it's I think it's a topic, you know, productizing your service. I think it's a topic that a lot of the people in my audience resonate with, you know. And and I think that's a result of the research that I've been doing.
Speaker 1:I did actually record a bunch of videos around this topic and I ended up scrapping them because I I started rewriting and as I as I thought more about the content in these lessons that I put out, I I realized, you know what, written form is really how I probably teach these concepts in in the clearest way possible. So I re so I re I spent, like, two or three weeks recording all new videos, editing the videos, and then finally, was like, you know what? I can do this better. I'm gonna I'm gonna trash those and
Speaker 2:That's tough.
Speaker 1:And go with go with the written ones. And I actually launched the email course before, you know, like you, like, before all the emails were were written. So it's it's a five part actually, you know, the secret is there's actually six lessons. I I kinda add in like a bonus lesson at the end.
Speaker 2:No one will complain.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I launched it having written only two of the lessons. So the first two email auto responders go out over the course of like four days or three days. And and the rest, I've I've just been writing. So now I I still have to write like one or two more before people start receiving these like blank emails in their inbox.
Speaker 2:Yep. Yep. That's good. That's healthy pressure.
Speaker 1:Yep. And but again, you know, just kinda getting to know my audience a lot better knowing, you know, there's a lot of kind of freelancers, consultants making that transition into products, productizing their service, building into more scalability, detaching their work from their time, things like that. So as I'm putting this out, I'm also doing more to to get to know my audience. I am reaching out to a number of of the people who sign up for the course and doing these like kind of one on one interviews. I'm doing a I'm also doing a webinar next week, but it's not like your traditional webinar where, you know, you kinda teach something and then you do a sales pitch for a product at the end.
Speaker 1:It's really more of an open Q and A. It's really more of a chance for me to learn even more about my audience, the people who are opting in and on my newsletter, and try to get to get to the bottom of all the questions that are really in their head so that I can work those questions in to the topics that I'm teaching about. And I guess we'll talk even more about this in today's episode talking all about info products because you and I are both kind of creating these info products right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And just hearing you talk about that process brings up so many questions to to me. So I'm looking forward to getting into the episode Yeah. And that's probably a good place to start right there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Definitely. And well, you know, just I guess the other quick update. I mean, I I am focusing a lot on that on on working on this like info product core stuff, which in a way kinda scares me a little bit because it's taken my focus off of restaurant engine. And anytime I take that focus off in any kind of SaaS really, it's, you know, you run the risk of of kind of, you know, getting into the same routine and the growth rate starts to starts to drop.
Speaker 1:But I think luckily, we have a lot of great systems in place and that's been going well. Just looked at the numbers from July and we actually had our best month yet revenue wise, customer wise as well. So things are pretty are looking looking pretty good on that front. You you had most
Speaker 2:revenue and added the most number of paying customers in the same month?
Speaker 1:I think we probably tied the record for most new customers. Revenue completely shattered, you know, best best month And that that was really exciting because it was, you know, there's no consulting work in here. They wasn't even a particularly great month when it came to to book sales or something. It was solely, like, the SaaS product is now producing, you know.
Speaker 2:And you're still taking your focus off of it. Well, yeah. There's gotta be a reason for it.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah. We'll we'll get into it all of it. So, yeah. Let's cut it right there. We'll we'll get into the main event.
Speaker 2:Let's do it. Let's take it away.
Speaker 1:Alright. So this is the main event. We are talking all about info products this week. I don't believe that I spent much time digging into info products, too much on this podcast yet. So I think it's it's a good topic to get into today.
Speaker 1:And it's also kind of timely for both you and me, Jordan, because as as you mentioned, you know, you are now selling your info product. Can you tell us real quick about that?
Speaker 2:Sure. This is my first info product. Right? I've sold physical goods. I've sold software.
Speaker 2:I've sold you know, I've always wanted ever since I mean, before Tim Ferriss' book, but ever since that those few paragraphs where he just explained how that guy sells CDs on autopilot. You know? I think everybody who read that was like, oh, damn. I think I'd I'd like to get into that game also. So this product is a four week course on how to build your sales funnel.
Speaker 2:So I basically learned this the hard way by doing consulting and very specialized consulting, productized consulting as as you would call it on building sales funnels for businesses. And the tricky part is figuring out how to build a sales funnel for another person's business that you are unfamiliar with. So going through that was not easy, but I had no choice but to figure out some type of a process. And as I was creating that process for myself, I realized that that was valuable in and of itself so that if someone doesn't wanna hire me and pay me, you know, a large amount of money to do it for them, they would still be interested and find value in the same process that I used.
Speaker 1:Right. Very cool.
Speaker 2:So that's kind that's kind of when it dawned on me like, hey, I can make money more efficiently and distribute value more efficiently if I package this.
Speaker 1:Right. So yeah. I mean, very cool. I mean, you know, I'm I'm kind of in this process right now. As I said, I I put up the free course, email course around productizing your service.
Speaker 1:I am planning kind of an an advanced training premium version of this course that's set to release in November. And and so, yeah, I'm just kinda going through this process of of building an an info product, teaching on a certain topic. And this for me is actually my second one. Last year, I I released a book called Design for Conversions. Learned a lot of lessons the hard way with that as I expected, which which has been really a great learning experience.
Speaker 1:So I guess we can kinda dig into some of that as well. You know, like the lessons I took from that ebook that I'm taking with me into this year's educational product. So before we really get into all that, let's kinda step back for a second. What are info products? I mean, we don't have to go super basic here, but I think that there are people maybe in this audience who who just really kinda focus on software and apps and tools.
Speaker 1:But And and and services, consulting services. Yeah. And consulting and freelancing and stuff.
Speaker 2:So Right. And info products kinda sit, you know, in the in the middle of those. So And they come in,
Speaker 1:like, many different forms too.
Speaker 2:Well, that's the thing. It gets gets a little tricky on the definition. My my instinct is to say something that can be sold online digitally, meaning there's very little if any additional marginal cost for an additional unit sold. Right? So ebook, it doesn't matter if you sell one or 15 a day, you don't pay anything other than processing fees and, you know, maybe software or something.
Speaker 2:But the truth is that's not that's a little too strict of a definition because over the past few years, a lot of things have been developed like one day workshops and courses like I'm doing over time and hybrids of an ebook. But if you get the higher tier, you get the book plus you get, you know, one on one time. So it's a it's a lot of hybrids but I guess it sits somewhere between a service where you do the work for the person and software where you're selling it on a recurring basis and it's, you know, in in the cloud, it's accessed that way. It kinda sits in between. I mean, how how would you try to define it?
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, I think I think as you said, like, the past few years, it has evolved into so many different forms, like shapes, forms, business models, delivery mechanisms. I mean, you've got you've got ebooks. You've got courses, you know, module one, module two, a series of videos and written lessons. You know, that's kind of probably the first thing that I would think of when when, you know, the the word info product comes to mind.
Speaker 1:But then you've got workshops, live live webinars that you, you know, paid attend attendance to these webinars. I would even put in, like, in person workshops. I mean, my buddy Clint, who you just met last week, he he built a whole business around in person training workshops around WordPress with his Illuminate business. So that's certainly an info product. I mean, that, of course, has its own cost as well, like hard he's printing out, like, hard books and, you know, they've gotta, like, book a venue and everything.
Speaker 1:So
Speaker 2:And here's the thing. I I think what both of us overlooked because we're so used to looking at how it's delivered, but both of us overlooked is the first word in info product. It's really information and knowledge. Right? So you're transferring that whether it's in person or a book or video, the format that both of us instinctually focused on.
Speaker 2:I guess the more more important piece is information and it helps people solve their problem or figure something out or learn something or a way to make money or get better at a hobby or a profession.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:Right. We we both kinda jumped over and I think a lot of a lot of people would because we're used to seeing how people are delivering it and selling it. Yes. But the truth is, I guess, the most important part is the value in the information and why people why people want it.
Speaker 1:It's the information itself, and it's and it's the problem that it's solving. I mean, you're you're seeking certain information. You're seeking answers to questions, you know, and and those answers have a have a very real value in in many different ways. I I think especially for business owners, you know. I I think business owners are matter which level you you're at in your business, you know, you're you're constantly looking for for the right answers and guidance and strategies and and and, you know, procedures to to make something happen in your business.
Speaker 1:And, you know, if if purchasing an info products is is gonna get you faster, you know, get you there faster, I mean, why not?
Speaker 2:Right. Alright. So now that we have a at least better feel for what we're talking about, the big question is why do an info product? Why sell an info product when we didn't set out to do it? And we would really I think we both prefer to just grow our software companies and focus on those entirely.
Speaker 2:So why are you interested and why are you spending time on an info product?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I think that's a good question. I never if if I wind the clock back a few years, like, to five years, I I probably wouldn't have even expected to call myself an entrepreneur or, you know, I I always thought you know, years ago, I considered myself a a web designer, and then I considered myself a freelance web designer. And then I somehow kind of got interested in into doing products.
Speaker 2:What got you interested?
Speaker 1:So info products, I mean, I I think last year, the book, it was I I wanted to do something on the side from building, you know, SaaS products. And I I guess that's the same this year, but I think this year my mentality is more I have built a sustainable business with with my SaaS, with Restaurant Engine, and that alone is it's it's sustaining me this year, but now I'm thinking more in terms of positioning for next year and and the years ahead. And I think for me, you know, building this audience and and teaching, that's kind of where I see my my focus personally, at least for for 2015. I mean, you know, it it might develop into some other form of software or or or something down the road, but I'm really I'm really thinking more in terms of teaching and and building an audience. That's my biggest focus over the next, like, twelve to eighteen months.
Speaker 1:So
Speaker 2:But I I have to ask, is that is that a business opportunity? Right? You you see it as an additional stream of income that could match the software or overtake the software or supplement?
Speaker 1:Yes. I I do see
Speaker 2:it as a Right. It's not just creative outlet. Right?
Speaker 1:Oh, no. I I think I I think, of course, it's a business opportunity. That's that's why, you know, we all kind of do what we do. I mean but but for me, it's always been like I have to be doing something that I that that I love doing, that I'm passionate about, and I've become even more passionate about teaching in in recent years than ever before. And and I've and lately, especially with with the writing and and podcasting and and doing these videos and stuff, I really get, like, a creative charge out of teaching and and and, like, the satisfaction of helping someone level up in their in their business and benefit from the things that I learned, like, the hard way over the last few years.
Speaker 1:And and if I can make a business out of that, that, you know, that that's great. Like, just having an impact, that's really what what drives me. But yeah. I mean, you know, to your question, the the business opportunity, I mean, for sure, you know, and I think we see this this pattern over and over again. If you build an audience, that's that's the easy that's the most effective way to build a a highly sustainable business is growing an audience.
Speaker 1:And I think I started to do that, you know, in in the last year or so, and I kinda wanna accelerate that. And so yeah. Kind of make really that make the audience building and teaching the audience met the focus in 2015.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And
Speaker 1:what what about you? I mean, where where are you coming from? Like, what drives you to get into info products right now?
Speaker 2:I, you know, I I always approach these things as a business opportunity, and then I am surprised by the the joy and satisfaction of helping people. So right. I don't it's almost like I don't admit it to myself that I like that side of it and that I'm I'm seeking that. I really see it as seeking a business opportunity to, you know, push things further and push my income further and push my business further. But I I think I dismissed it a little too quickly the the satisfaction and general happiness that you get out of doing something you like and teaching something you like and seeing other people succeed.
Speaker 2:I mean, just today, I got an email from a client that I built a sales funnel for, and she's telling me out of all my marketing channels, out of all my landing pages, all my autoresponders, yours is the highest converting, you know, she's super happy. And money is great, but that that's, you know, that's really valuable also.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Totally.
Speaker 2:And and I I think I will say.
Speaker 1:Well, I I think, you know, working like, my history working with clients in in the web design business, you know, as a freelance web designer, I found that this isn't the case for all clients, but but a a large majority of them, they're they're just not excited about the product that I'm deliver you know, like the service that I'm delivering them. They're they see it as, like, I guess I gotta get my website done and I guess we'll hire this this web designer and, you know, it doesn't make it for a very enjoyable business customer relationship. But info products, there's kind of that, like, excitement and passion on both sides. You know, like, I'm teaching something that I'm truly passionate about that I that I that I love to kind of, you know, share my lessons with you on. And the customer of an info product is is super excited to kinda get their hands on something and and level themselves up.
Speaker 1:And and they kinda they aspire to to bettering themselves or their business through.
Speaker 2:Yes. And I think that's that's the the best byproduct of what we're talking about, info products in general. And I also think the most attractive part of it is is just the efficiency. Yeah. It's just, you know, how well you see you see a lot of these really successful guys like Lewis Howes and James Wedmore and Ramit Sethi, all these guys.
Speaker 2:There's just no other way for one person or one person with a little team to reach that many people and sell that much product because, you know, it doesn't matter how many you have depending on how efficient the product is, blah blah blah. You can really sell things a lot faster. You can sell 10,000 books.
Speaker 1:Right. Whereas,
Speaker 2:you know, to deliver to a side of 10,000 clients in a software product or something equivalent is much harder. So the efficiency yeah. And I always, you know, I have no shame in trying as hard as I can to work as little as possible. I mean, totally. I mean, it
Speaker 1:is it's like it's like the ultimate scalable business. Right? I mean, like a a one
Speaker 2:It's the dream.
Speaker 1:You know, like a one off downloadable digital product. I mean, there's there's a ton of work that goes up front from audience research into, you know, writing and and producing the content for for the info product. But, you know, afterward, of course, you you kinda continue to market it and and and speak and write up about it. But but it it's it's basically a a thing that that has value kinda sells right off the shelf afterward. And and there's there's no denying, you know, the the attraction to that sort of
Speaker 2:Right. And there's there's plenty of work to do, but the the number of hours you work, you know, the relationship between how many hours you work, how much money you make is becomes disconnected at some point. And that's, I mean, that's the goal. That's the same thing as systemizing your business and not working there, you know, all the time and having it work without you while you pursue other things or go on vacation. It's the same kind of thing.
Speaker 2:And I think that's what we all seek. Consultants, especially people who get paid by the hour or by the product. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's what you wanna disconnect the number of hours you work and the relationship between the two.
Speaker 2:You don't want them linear. You don't want it one to one. Even if you charge, you know, like a a badass lawyer in New York who charges $1,200 an hour, he still has to work a lot of hours to make a lot of money.
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah. So It's true. And Yeah. You know, I mean, the I think there's also this question of why do so many of of us, you know, in this industry why do we why do so many people kind of, like, write off info products?
Speaker 1:And I think it's that classic thing where they just come off as, a salesy, you know, get rich quick kind of scheme. And and I think I think things are starting to the tide is kind of turning in the other direction in in recent years, and maybe that's just within our little bubble here. But, I mean, what what do you what do you think about that? I mean, why
Speaker 2:I think people stayed away from it because they they felt like it was beneath them or look. There's a lot of sleaziness in in the info product world and in the affiliate world and people there's a bad stigma attached. And I also think people didn't see other people that they were close with and that they respect and that they felt connected with doing it. And that's what you're talking about. Over the past year or two years, you start to see people that you really respect.
Speaker 2:You know they're good people and they're great at what they do. And they're heading in that direction almost as it's like a mistake. Right? Sean McCabe, who we are interviewing in an upcoming podcast. Yep.
Speaker 2:This guy is just talented and he really, really loves what he does. And he he almost had it forced on him to to sell the information. Right. Because he was sharing and building an audience and and and was it learning in public. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Or teaching in public or whatever that term that fits. And people just came to him enough that they said, I want to learn this. It's not like he set out to be like an affiliate marketer or he saw, hey, this guy with an ebook selling, you know, how to get six pack abs makes a million dollars a month. I wanna do the same thing.
Speaker 2:He didn't do that. But now we start to see people like him and other people are in our in our bubble and it becomes undeniable.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know?
Speaker 2:Try arguing with Nathan Barry's experience over the past few years. Right? Try arguing that that's not great and that he's sleazy. You know? It's not.
Speaker 2:It's it's it's it's good.
Speaker 1:Of course. And and, you know, I think it gets it gets to that point of of trust. Right? Like, if if you again, if you build that audience and you build trust with an audience, an info product becomes kind of okay in in a way. You know, like, I I think yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, like I'm gonna
Speaker 2:argue I'm gonna argue with you there.
Speaker 1:Well, but but, you know, like, would say, like, Pat Flynn is one guy who I'm a huge fan of now. I Right. Tune into almost every podcast he puts out. Incredible blogger. The the content that he puts out is is truly, you know, on another level, one of a kind, and you can tell like his personality, he's he's genuine, he's authentic, and he truly means well, like he he's the kind of guy that that, you know, he would not do harm to his audience.
Speaker 1:But when I first discovered Pat Flynn, maybe, you know, a year or two ago, alarm bells went off in my head. It was it looked like, you know, get rich quick, make passive income, you know. Mhmm. I I'm not sure what's going on here. I'm you know?
Speaker 2:Well, let's not pretend, like, let's not pretend that he's not trying actively to make money. Right? Sure. Everyone everyone in this world that we're talking right now, the point of what they're doing is to make more money, but it's not the only point. And if you do it the right way where you provide genuinely good valued information and advice, then hallelujah.
Speaker 2:No nobody cares if if you make a lot of money. People are happy about it. That's that's the truth. Like, I've Right. I should have canceled my GetDrip account a few months ago, but I just didn't because I I love Rob and I want him to succeed.
Speaker 2:And so I've kind of been waiting around and now all these features are coming in. Now I'm gonna start to use drip more and I don't care that I I paid $50 a month for the past four months when I shouldn't have because I I know Rob.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right? So now what what that is is a complete contradiction to what I'm about to say next. So my big argument with you is that is that the audience is a requirement. Maybe I'm putting words in your mouth. Maybe you're not saying that the audience is required, but I know you and a lot of people refer to the audience piece of it as integral, as Yeah.
Speaker 2:As as as essential. And and I don't I don't agree with that. I think having it building an audience makes selling things a lot easier, but building an audience is anything but easy. I think if you if you nail the problem well enough and the audience and the solution, then my personal take on it is that products should stand on their own and should be profitable using paid advertising. Right?
Speaker 2:That's my view, but an audience helps. And I I think that's an interesting discussion because a lot of what we see in public are audience based success because, I mean, you know, they're building an audience. We are literally in their audience, and they do everything in public to build that audience to then parlay it into financial success with with the products?
Speaker 1:I think I don't I don't totally disagree with you there. I I think it it can certainly, you know, work both ways. I think you're right now, you're working on a, you know, your own case study where you you are proving that it's it's possible to to sell, you know, seats to an info product without without having any sort of, you know, big audience. But I think I think my thing is I see the end goal in mind, and that is to to have a large audience who is highly engaged with with a topic that that really resonates. And and I'm definitely I'm certainly not against paid advertising.
Speaker 1:I my my approach to that is it should be added on the top to make it even more efficient. And that's that's kinda how I've done it with Restaurant Engine is we we built it up organically and and then we've kind of enhanced it with with paid ads. Right. And I I think that's probably how I'd go with building the audience around Castjam.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I I can't I can't argue with with that as as a building an audience is, you know, it's just the most valuable thing you can do in the medium to to long term.
Speaker 1:I I do think that the benefit from your perspective of starting with the product and kind of building the audience as you go through, you know, through through paid ads at first. And then I think eventually, you know, that kind of product, you're gonna kinda develop an audience out of it. Mhmm. The benefit there is that you the content that you're putting out and the and your focus and establishing your personal brand, you you already have your set of topics defined for you. I think in my case, I've been blogging for like over six years on all sorts of different topics and and just kind of, you know, trying out different things.
Speaker 1:And then over the past year, I was still kind of experimenting from post to post trying to like figure out like, this is kind of interesting to me, but is it interesting to anyone else? And then it's only in these, like, recent few months where I'm starting to really focus in on, okay, who is the audience? And now that I know that, what are the things that I what are the topics that I'm gonna write about? What are the topics that I'm gonna develop into info products? Like, I didn't know that from from the outset, and now I now I know it from starting to develop an audience, and then and and as that audience is coming together, figuring out where where the direction is going.
Speaker 2:Right. And and what's most valuable to them, which I think is what you hit on very recently with productizing your service. Right? You got a much better response to that than other things because you talk to people and and you hit on the right thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And and, you know, this kind of ties into my first info product last year. I I did a book called Design for Conversions. It did okay as as my first ebook. I mean, really, my whole goal for that was to just kinda learn what's it like to create an ebook and try to sell it.
Speaker 1:Right? My thing, I guess the biggest lesson that I learned from that is I didn't do the audience research upfront because frankly, I didn't really have much of an audience back then. I think at at the time that that book went on sale, I had something like 300 or 350 email subscribers. And I think considering that, considering I had a very low audience, I think it did okay. You know, I don't know the exact sales numbers right off off the top of my head.
Speaker 1:Between, like, six and ten and ten k, you know, since the launch, which is about eight months ago.
Speaker 2:Sir certainly not bad. I guess it just depends on
Speaker 1:your expectations. But I don't think it met my hopes and expectations for that sort of thing. But I think it showed that that that some people found it valuable and some people continue to find it valuable. And the thing was I wrote that I tackled that topic design for conversions, you know, designing a better marketing site because it's something that I was interested in, something that I had a lot of experience with, especially more recently building marketing sites for products. And I I figured, you know what?
Speaker 1:I know this really well. I can write a book about it. So I did. But I but the idea of connecting with an audience and connecting with a problem and a need didn't really factor into that. Whereas now, that's like the big lesson that I'm taking into the second one is like, okay, I'm trying to do as much of that research upfront so that I'm really teaching on something that resonates.
Speaker 1:While at the same time balancing that with something that I do know a lot about and that's, you know, systematization and growing and, you know, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I think I think it's a natural evolution. I don't know about anyone else in the audience, but I have started maybe 10 businesses where I did that same thing where I said, I know this person and I can get access to this and I know how to sell it, so I'll do it. And that hasn't worked out. Whereas going the other way and saying, who are these people?
Speaker 2:What market do I wanna talk to? Who do I wanna sell to? What are their problems? Let me offer them a solution, works a lot better. So I think, you know, all told the way your book performed was was good considering it was essentially a guess of, hey, I know how to do this, so let me let me teach it.
Speaker 2:And now I think as you get into what people are really struggling with I mean, when I hear you talk about Restaurant Engine and how the systems are at a place where it's consistent, I mean, I want that. I think about myself, I think about Carhook over the past few months as I started to split my time with consulting and info products, and I think, you know, we can get to that next on why we're both kind of doing that, splitting our time. I took the focus off Cardhook and everything slowed down because I didn't have systems in place to just run consistently with the marketing and outreach and content. I didn't have those in place. So if you talk to me about that type of information and I say to myself, I can use that to make more money and make my life better and my business stronger.
Speaker 2:You know, now now now I think you're starting to get into real pain as opposed to it's great to be able to do x, like, you know, designing for conversions as opposed to just what what looks good.
Speaker 1:Right. So Yeah. Well, you know, that's that's kind of like my hope. But yeah. I mean, to to that next question of why why do an info product when you're already doing something else?
Speaker 1:Right? So
Speaker 2:The reality, and a lot of us learn this in the bootstrap world, SaaS, it's slow. Yes. Right? We all hopefully, if you haven't seen that phenomenal talk at the Business of Software Conference by if you forgive me, I do not remember her name. Do you remember
Speaker 1:her name?
Speaker 2:She's she's ridiculous. Very very smart accountant.
Speaker 1:I'm just gonna Google, and this is what everyone else should Google is Yeah. She she ran What is it? Long slow ramp of death?
Speaker 2:Exact. And it and it Or the SaaS? Yes. Slow SaaS ramp of death, something like that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think I think she ran Constant Contact, and she talks about it. This is a very well funded company. Of Constant Gal Yeah. So great great speech at the business of software a few years ago where she talks about the difficulty in spending money on development and sales and support and and and the tricky math involved in software as a service because you you don't get paid upfront unless you're Jason Cohen and do that properly. And you acquire customers and it costs money to acquire customers and it usually costs more money to acquire customers than you recoup in any given month, right?
Speaker 2:If you recoup within six to twelve months, I think you're doing pretty damn well for industry standards. And so as you grow, it almost becomes even more challenging to manage your finances. So those are issues that funded companies deal with. In the bootstrap world, you know, right now in my situation by myself with a relatively small marketing budget and all that, you know, if I'm adding 10 or 20 customers a month, I'm doing I'm doing pretty well. So to think about that where you start off and I don't know.
Speaker 2:I like to use $10,000 a month as a general line to get over. Mean, I have I have a wife and two kids and I I like to go out to dinner. I'm not good at, you know, being frugal. So I think the software has to get to $10,000 a month in order to be stable and and feed the family and all that. And that takes a while.
Speaker 2:Yes. If if you can do that in twelve months from the time you launch your SaaS, you are a beast. Right? You you did great. You hit on something right.
Speaker 2:You found the right marketing channels. You're smart. Whatever you accolade you wanna give yourself, you did great. If you're doing this by yourself, you get the $10,000 recurring revenue month in twelve months, you did great.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So what do you do in the interim? And what do you do if it takes you eighteen months or twenty four months? It's obviously much harder to go from 0 to a thousand bucks a month than it is to go from a thousand to 2,000. And it's really hard to get to 10,000 a month. So yes, it's great that it's easier to get from 10 to 20 than it is from zero to 10, but you're not gonna get there for a while.
Speaker 2:So if it takes you eighteen, twenty four months, you know, what are you gonna do in the meantime?
Speaker 1:You gotta you have something to to kinda help you make that transition. I mean That's right. And you and you can do that a number of ways. Right? I mean, of course, there's there's consulting, which, you know, you and I have both done as as we made this transition.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, like, having that one that that one time info product. I I I think there's just something to be said for SaaS versus like a one time product. Even if it's like a downloadable software, but we're, you know, we're talking about info products here. The the nice thing about doing an info product is you don't have to do it forever. Whereas a SaaS, you kinda do.
Speaker 1:Right. Or or at
Speaker 2:least you marry it.
Speaker 1:Like, you have to you have to really marry the SaaS to get to that point, to get to that 10 k a month, you know. And and I I feel like for me, a a huge mistake that I made making this transition, I I probably would've, you know, reached that that point much sooner if I if I had focused and and not taken on so many different products at the same time. I mean, that being said, at as you said, you you do need to support yourself in that first year. And I
Speaker 2:don't know if that's necessarily a mistake you made or it's just hindsight looking back and saying, may maybe it wasn't the best decision.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, mean, lesson learned. You know, I I don't, you know
Speaker 2:But I don't I don't I don't know if you would do anything differently even now because what you're talking about is the exact situation that I'm in. Right? I have a SaaS that I would think, I would say, generally speaking, has done well. Right? Got it off the ground, got customers, got paying customers, have great conversion rates, the whole deal.
Speaker 2:But right now, I know I should focus on it, but it sounds risky as a responsible dad with a family because what if it doesn't quite work out the way you hope it does? You know, usually you look at a spreadsheet and it doesn't work out the way the spreadsheet looks.
Speaker 1:Right. And and, well, I I guess that's kind of what I'm saying it about the the benefit of the one time info products that you can kinda test it, and then you can even launch it. And then it that only eats up, like, what, three, six months of your year. You can after that, you can continue to build it out or or, you know, let it sit on the shelf and kind of get back to the SaaS or get back to to whatever you were working on.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I and I wanna say, you know, three six months for an info product is is too long. But the truth is, where I I tried my best to shorten that, and it still ended up at somewhere between two and three months.
Speaker 1:I say three to six months because, like, the way that I I mapped it out so I I am planning an info product release about three months from now. And when I did the book last year, again, I gave myself three months to to produce it. And I think creating it creating the product itself does not take three months. That can probably take like a month or less. Right.
Speaker 2:But everything that goes into it, and the planning, and the blog posts, and
Speaker 1:the And I think, well, okay. It's like in my you know, we're we're doing the initial marketing much differently. Like, you're doing like a paid ads, webinars, and that kind of stuff. I I'm doing a a little bit of of that, but really mostly it's it's blogging, and it's gonna be a lot more guest blogging over the next three months. So Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I wanted to allow enough time for that stuff to take effect before we get to launch day. You know? Yes. I mean, so
Speaker 2:I think ideally
Speaker 1:push it and release this thing, like, thirty days from now, but I wanna make sure that I'm building enough anticipation between now and then.
Speaker 2:Yes. And I also think that ideally, you could find out whether or not you're onto something in a much shorter time frame. So Yes. It's it would be a disaster to work on one thing like your software product, take your focus and split your focus in half and say, I'm gonna work on an info product because that will help supplement my income, then spend six months on it and then launch and not have it sell. That's that's that's a disaster.
Speaker 2:So I think you need to find out and get validated as soon as possible, a lot sooner.
Speaker 1:Yes. And and this is another one of those lessons that I'm taking into into this one, this time around, you know. Getting into that validation first and putting the marketing systems, the marketing funnel in place first. Right? So I think you you've done that, you know, doing kind of the ads to a landing page to a webinar.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I I'm putting out the free kind of introductory version of this course first. I didn't do that the first time around with the book because I don't know why I didn't. I I always I always kind of assumed that I would release the book and then soon after that, would create some kind of free lead magnet and then I just never got around to it. I got too busy. I got back into the SaaS stuff and into all sorts of other stuff and this time around, I'm starting with the free version.
Speaker 1:And this is before I'm even developing the the premium version. And the whole point is to is to get feedback, build interest, see if there is any interest. Yep. In fact, I did this very same thing two month even just a month ago, I released a different free course. And as it turns out, there wasn't enough interest for me to go ahead and move forward with creating the the premium product.
Speaker 1:I have had a few people reach out saying, you know, I am very interested in that. When are you gonna do it? But overall, the the conversion rate is not there.
Speaker 2:Right. So that's that's a win. To not to not create that premium product and not spend more time on it is is a win.
Speaker 1:Right. That that was the the content marketing automation stuff. Right.
Speaker 2:Which which I I think sounds super interesting. It just depends on if people will to to pay for that type of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I think what I learned there was that it is interesting and valuable to a small segment of of folks, you know, people who are just getting into doing content marketing and need to kind of automate it.
Speaker 2:Right. Some people think that they need to create it themselves. It's it's it's a bit of a trickier
Speaker 1:Yeah. And it's also it's also something that really works well if you have an established business already, and and it's something that you can kinda plug in on top of it. But what I'm finding is that the vast majority of my audience are getting into products, launching their first product, and or in making that transition and and learning what it means to to systemize and start to delegate and hire a team and put process in place. I think that's what I'm seeing from the opt in rate on on this new course and and some of the feedback that I've been getting. That's that's what I'm seeing is where the interest is.
Speaker 1:So I can't say even even that this product idea is totally validated. Yeah. I mean, people are still going through the first people are still going through the course. That's going to lead into eventually, like, a landing page for the premium course, and that's where I'm gonna really gauge interest. That and also the personal conversations that I'm having with with the people on my list.
Speaker 2:Right. So before I get into the the validation process that I use, which I think people will find interesting, can you just give me a little more specifics on what do you mean by productizing your service? You're talking about, like, you know, one standard price for the service and that's it? Or looking at your service based business like consulting and systemizing that so that it's it runs like a more like a product?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I think that that's a good question, and it actually took me a few of these past weeks to figure out what what do I mean by prioritized service. Right. Here's the here's what I'm the analogy that I'm saying is that if you're currently freelancing or even if you work in a job, you're probably doing a whole number of different services for clients or for your company. For me, I was a web designer, so I did things like custom websites, PSDs, you know, PSD to HTML, WordPress integration, copywriting, logo design, mobile optimization, SEO.
Speaker 1:I mean, the list goes on. You you wear all these different hats. A productized service is taking one of those things or just like a core set of one service, one specific service, something that has real value to paying clients and productizing that. So Mhmm. That's what I did with Restaurant Engine.
Speaker 1:I I built a productized version of web design. I was I was a freelance web designer. I I I found a way to productize that into a more scalable automated version of what I was doing before, which was very tied to my time. And there are so many other examples of this. I mean, in the post that I published today or yesterday to announce this new course was I I gave a few examples.
Speaker 1:Jane Portman, who was at MicroConf Oh, yeah. She has a productized service called Correlation, and that's so she does, like, UI design for your app, Kind of like a retainer model, but it's a very specific set of services. Nick Desibato, I hope I'm pronouncing his his name right. He does yeah. Just
Speaker 2:That's the that's what comes to mind. Just optimization he does. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. He he has something called draft revise, and that's just just AB testing. He will help AB test your site, one new AB test every month, and he'll run it, and he'll report on the results, and and help you
Speaker 2:improve. Tweak it. Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, it's similar to what I do with banyantreedigital.com, right, where I started doing consulting for websites and sales funnels and all this other stuff, and I just said, what I like and what people find valuable is just the sales funnel.
Speaker 2:So I will build a lead magnet for you with an autoresponder and I'll get it all up and running on your site for a fixed price.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So it's yeah. Now I still do I still do the work like a service, but it's sold like a product. There isn't like haggling that's like a description. And then if you want it, you talk to me and then you you buy it, you you know what you're getting. It's
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. And and that's the thing about the productized service is that it can run the way that I teach it is like, it can run with or without you. It's it's taking what you what you do manually as a as a freelancer, as a consultant, and then productizing it into a service that can then run with or without you. And in the short term, in the immediate term, it will probably run with you.
Speaker 1:You're gonna be doing the work. And maybe and maybe you wanna be doing the work. Maybe maybe you don't wanna be doing all the other crap that comes with, like, freelancing, like invoicing and chasing down, you know, unpaid invoices and doing client meetings and taking on work that you don't wanna be doing. Mhmm. And just focus on the one crap.
Speaker 1:I mean, at Jane Portman with with correlation. She only focuses on UI design. I think in I think in her service, in her landing page, she even says, you know, I don't do revisions. Like, she just sends you the design.
Speaker 2:Gives it to you.
Speaker 1:This is it. Like, if at know, I'll answer some questions and whatnot, but, you know, this is my expert opinion. I mean, I think there's a little bit more to it than that. But
Speaker 2:No. But but you you see that from people who have confidence and who charge a premium and build a lot of trust before the sale, like copy hackers.
Speaker 1:Right. Right. Well, I I guess what I'm saying with the productized service is that you can either go that route, like, you are the service, you're you're doing the work, the the the one thing, or you can go the systemized route. Eventually, you know, putting all the procedures in place, the team, and the tools in place so that the thing can run itself.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And kinda I love it if it sounds yeah. I think that's great because it's it's alluring. Right? When when I started doing client work for for Banyan Tree Digital, right, when it was productized, that's that's kinda what happened.
Speaker 2:I I had an employee working with me and she was a great writer. And so when a client would sign on, I would have the initial consultation with them. And then we would just have a consultation once a week to go over their, you know, their product and their audience to understand. Right? I just would go through my process to build out the sales funnel for them, but I wouldn't really do much.
Speaker 2:I would hand it off to my employee who wrote the content and then I would take it and give her feedback and I would give her recordings of the conference calls that I had with the clients. And I love that. That's Yeah. It was fun talking about people's businesses and why people buy from them and what they're getting out of it. And and then I would just hand off that conversation, record it to her, and she would take it and turn it into content using my process and worksheets and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:So Right.
Speaker 1:Yes. Very
Speaker 2:very cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. I mean, there's there's so many different ways to kinda deliver a service. And I don't wanna, you know, keep on talking about this topic today. But yeah.
Speaker 1:I I think that's just there's a lot of freelancers out there who think that, like, oh, I just have to build for my time and, you know, I have to be going through these job boards and answering all these different gigs when there's really a much more scalable model to this. And that's what I wanted
Speaker 2:to introduce. And that's the the e myth, you know, the entrepreneur's curse where where you convince yourself and everyone's guilty of it, almost everyone
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That that you have to do the work because you're the only one capable of doing the work, and then it runs away from you. Instead of doing the core most valuable work, you start to do everything. And because the relationship of how much money you make is very, very much tied to how much time you spend on it, you can't ever make that much money. Right? Exactly.
Speaker 2:How can you make $500,000 a year if you're doing all the work that, you know, that
Speaker 1:it's Right. It's it's kind of you know, I I I like to talk about it how it's like you're promoting yourself from freelancer to business owner. Yes. And there's a lot that goes along with that. You know?
Speaker 1:Yep. But, you know, just you know, like, I guess one more point, one more question that I wanted to touch on today is, can a beginner create an info product? And I think this is something that a lot of people are like, well, am I even qualified to write a book or write a course on this topic if if I'm if a, nobody knows me, and b, I'm I'm I'm kind of a newbie at this? Well,
Speaker 2:it I think the big question is, what do you mean by beginner? Beginner online, beginner in info products, someone who hasn't done info product before can definitely sell an info product. Right. What can't do is sell information on a topic that you're a beginner in.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right? You you have to you don't need to be the world's foremost authority in landing pages in order to sell a and then for product landing pages. What you do need to know is a little bit more than your audience and enough to give them real value. Yeah. Yes.
Speaker 2:And you have something to add? Because I can't help but think about my journey over the past three months. I was not an expert. I was a not total beginner, but essentially a beginner in building sales funnels. And I went through a process of moving myself from beginner toward expert and I always stayed a little bit further ahead than the other people that were interested in it.
Speaker 2:And so I was always the expert. And now that I've gone through the whole thing, I'm I'm no longer a beginner, but it was kind of a deliberate process. Yeah. Why don't I just describe it? It's the same thing as as how I validated.
Speaker 2:Right? When I said to myself, this is what I wanna focus on. First thing I did was offered it for free. Maybe that's not the right approach. In this situation, I think it was my my best option.
Speaker 2:I went to a private Facebook group of entrepreneurs that I'm I'm in and I said, hey, guys, I want to do this. I wanna build sales funnels for businesses. Who's interested? I will do it for free. You give me feedback, give me the patience and understand that I'm just building this out right now.
Speaker 2:And if you like it, give you good feedback and testimonials and recommendations. A bunch of people jumped on it. So that was the first validation. Okay. People are interested in it and they're willing to do it for free.
Speaker 2:So half validated.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So I worked with, I think five people to build out their sales funnels and that's when I had to bust my head against the law and figured how the hell to build this stuff and write this content for businesses that I'm not familiar with. That was the trial by fire. And then I said, okay. Now I need the other half of validation in terms of money. So I went to Google AdWords.
Speaker 1:I just you know, I actually didn't realize that you performed the service for free for I I did. Yeah. That that's really cool. So I mean, like, that that's that's kind of like doing the extra research. It's it so it's not I guess it's I
Speaker 2:guess it's was everything. It was everything. It was the it was the most important step I took. It was a lot of work for free, but it what it did is transform me from someone who didn't know what they were talking about to someone who could confidently talk about it because I just done it five times over the span of four weeks with different businesses outside of my own. So then to get the other piece of the validation, I went to Google AdWords and I spent about a thousand bucks to get people to a landing page to offer the productized service that we talked about and I got two clients.
Speaker 2:And I got two clients to pay 4 figures to do this and I said, okay. Now I have the other half the validation people who wanna pay money for it And now I'm working with them and now I have essentially a consulting business that, you know, I can claim that I genuinely know what I'm doing in this and I'm good at it. And then I took that expertise and put it into an info product. So that whole journey took about three months. So that is essentially going from beginner to info product as an expert in a matter of three months.
Speaker 2:And it took a lot of work, but it's not like I didn't make money along the way. And then when I sold the Infer product, I made, you know, I made $2,000. I made I made almost as much money as Cardhook has made in the past six months.
Speaker 1:Right. I mean, I I, you know, I think that it's it's super impressive that you've that you've managed to kind of condense all of that, like, experience that you're teaching on into three months. So that that right there, I highly commend you for, you know. Thanks. But, know, I I think where is I going with this?
Speaker 2:You're just you're just so dazzled by my
Speaker 1:I know. Just just incredible. You know?
Speaker 2:In in performance and but you're talking about the
Speaker 1:I I had something that
Speaker 2:I I see. I ran too long. I was just so interested in my own story. I just kept talking and
Speaker 1:I should
Speaker 2:Is it the
Speaker 1:I should've been taking notes on this.
Speaker 2:Right. Is it the the the big the transformation from beginner? Like, how how someone who's a beginner can sell info products?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, I I think, you know, I I well, just talking about about beginners, I think it's important that you just kinda focus on one thing that you that you know really well, and that doesn't you you know, we're all in this bubble where, like, oh, you have to gain a ton of experience, and you have to have results that you can point to, like, oh, I made, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars doing this. It's intimidating. You you can do the same thing. But you look at guys like, you know, Sasha Greif.
Speaker 1:I mean, of course, he's done very well for himself, but he, you know, he he put out a book about Learn Meteor, which is like a a subset of Java it's a type of JavaScript Right. Book. A very a very technical guide to learning a a type of JavaScript. So that's just like a very niche product that serves a very real purpose. You know, a JavaScript developer or an expert in a specialized area can certainly teach on a on a on a certain topic like that.
Speaker 1:Like, you don't need to be the most well known person in the world to to teach, you know. You just need to and and okay. So this this is the thing that I that I forgot as to you
Speaker 2:Got it.
Speaker 1:You know, even though you don't have years of experience in building sales funnels, I think there's also value in the way that you teach. I mean, just just you describing it here, like, how you're so methodical about, okay, I'm gonna work with these five clients, and then I'm gonna see with Google AdWords, will people pay for this, and what's the process to do that? You know, I've I've seen your your educational videos, and I think that there's a there there is value in in the way that you communicate a topic and get people to wrap their heads around it, and then get people to actually plug it in and take action on it. You know, I not everyone can do that, and I'm I'm finding it it's it's much more difficult than it seems. Like, you you look at all these info products out there, like, oh, anyone could do that.
Speaker 1:You know? No. You you not anyone can do that. And I've I've bought info products that really didn't teach me a whole lot. It was a very valuable topic.
Speaker 1:I I spent money on it because I needed to learn something, and then I watched the whole thing, and I came away like, I kinda already knew all that stuff or it wasn't what I what I had hoped. Right. And and the reason the reason is the teacher didn't do a good job of teaching it in a way that that really works. But I think that the way that you teach does work. You know, very clear, you know, with writing on on the whiteboard with, like, clear metaphors.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. You know, you had the the thing about the the person jumping over like, leaping over the high bar. Right?
Speaker 2:The Right. The little hurdle and the big hurdle and the conversion rate that goes along with it. Right?
Speaker 1:So Totally. Like, simp simplifying to that that idea. So that's what I'm saying. It's like you don't you don't need to have years of proven experience. You just need to get the idea across in a way that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yes. Now here's the thing. That's what you see upfront, and that's what a lot of us see upfront when we look at what other people are doing, the products they're creating. In truth, behind the scenes, I didn't know how to communicate that until I was forced to. So all those things I'm saying, that's what I was forced to talk about when I had a one hour Skype conversation with someone that I told them I was gonna build their sales funnel.
Speaker 2:I had to come up with how to communicate it. And then when I started talking about that all day, every day, all of a sudden you find analogies, you sound confident, right? So by the time I had the first conversation with a complete stranger who hired me for 4 figures to build their sales funnel, it's not that I sounded like I knew what I was talking about. I actually knew what I was talking about because I had been thinking about it, struggling with it and talking about it for weeks every day. And it's not like I just, you know, I'm so awesome.
Speaker 2:I just had this knowledge in me and I'm, you know, bequeathing it to others now. It's the same thing as a total beginner right now listening to this and saying, but I don't know anything. You know? You can you can learn just about anything if you're willing to just dive in and do it for people and you don't need to be super well known, you don't need to have all this background. Right?
Speaker 2:I did it for free. Go look at banyantreedigital.com, read the testimonials. Those are people I did it for free for.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But I think it's it's I I I think you had the insight to look at the end goal. Look at look at step by step, like, these are the things I'm doing now because this is where I wanna end up, and this is what's required to get there. And I I you know?
Speaker 2:That's a good lesson.
Speaker 1:Learn by doing.
Speaker 2:You know?
Speaker 1:Right. You gotta
Speaker 2:be taking
Speaker 1:action and figuring things out as you go. So Yep. I think that's good good spot to leave it today. We went pretty long. I hope hope you guys got a lot of value out of this one.
Speaker 1:As always, if you have any questions, you know, feel free to to reach out to us. CashJam on Twitter. You're Jordan Galen on Twitter. Is that right? Just Jordan Galen on Twitter?
Speaker 2:That's right. Jordan Galen. Yes. We'll we'll try to I I mean, I think it's just fun having these these conversations and digging in and we'll continue to refine them to ensure that people listening in, you know, get more and more value out of it. So we wanna hear from you guys.
Speaker 2:We want some iTunes reviews. If you guys are enjoying this, head over there and give us some good reviews and some feedback. And we wanna hear from you. So let us know what you wanna hear about and we will dig into it. Very cool.
Speaker 1:Okay. That wraps it up. To dig into the backlog of episodes, head over to bootstrappedweb.com. And if you're enjoying this show, again, please head over to iTunes, leave us a five star review. That's the best way to support the show and help others find it in in iTunes.
Speaker 1:So, yeah. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next time.
![[35] Why Do an Info Product?](https://img.transistorcdn.com/LDB_Cv9bHAA2vtoSPkZCpkdHPF6fAqfl7PL-PG7_c-M/rs:fill:0:0:1/w:800/h:800/q:60/mb:500000/aHR0cHM6Ly9pbWct/dXBsb2FkLXByb2R1/Y3Rpb24udHJhbnNp/c3Rvci5mbS9jMjkw/MDYxZDQ0MWIxYTUw/NTMzMGI2NTExZWMx/MWQ1Yi5qcGc.webp)