Sales Breakthroughs & In-Person Growth Strategy
Welcome back, everybody. Another episode of Bootstrapped Web. Brian, this might be our once a summer episode.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I think the the schedule will, you know, take take one of our breaks here in the next couple of weeks because I'll be heading out on a on our summer vacation next week. And then I'll be back in early July, and maybe we'll get back on the mics then.
Jordan Gal:Alright. Yeah. You're you're going deep. I'm I'm going to, like, Charleston for three days.
Brian Casel:Oh, that's cool. I don't I don't think I've been there.
Jordan Gal:I have not been there either. Today is the last day of school. So this is the last thing in my week, and then I head out to meet the kids at the beach where everyone went after school's over, after this half day.
Brian Casel:Nice. Before we do this big trip, next week, we're we're leaving on Thursday to go to, The Philippines and then, Cambodia, dragging the kids out there for, like, a two week kinda hop around these different places, see some of my wife's family in The Philippines. Before we do that, tonight, we're gonna drop the kids off at grandma's house, and the wife and I get to celebrate our anniversary weekend and go to New York City, see some comedy.
Jordan Gal:Oh, that's cool.
Brian Casel:Late night.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. That that sounds like fun. We we are we are celebrating our fifteen year anniversary in in two weeks.
Brian Casel:Oh, wow. Yeah. Think we're I I should I should know this. I think we're
Jordan Gal:Not quite a spot. Yeah.
Brian Casel:The the twelve year this this weekend. Yes.
Jordan Gal:Cool. Well, look. It is a juggle. I I I don't know about you, but when I look out over the summer, I am really excited to spend time with family and travel and go to Michigan, do the whole all the things. But then I look at what I want to accomplish by the end of the summer on the business side and it stresses me out.
Jordan Gal:That that juggle is stressful.
Brian Casel:Totally. I I talked about it last time too. And it's like right now, I'm I'm about I'm like six days away from getting on this plane on this big Okay. Trip. And so I've been in this like prep mode.
Brian Casel:But frankly, I'm I'm just gonna keep working through through the trip probably. But like Can
Jordan Gal:you you have the discipline to kinda do that in the mornings?
Brian Casel:I mean, it's gonna be hard, especially with the massive time change and everything like that. Yep. But like but just no. I'm trying to try to, like, sort of, like, wrap up some projects now that I definitely don't want to have to touch while I'm doing you know, while I'm out there.
Jordan Gal:Yep. Makes sense.
Brian Casel:But there's definitely stuff. And and it's of course, this trip is happening at at I would say, I really think that we're actually the the most busy we've been in the in in the trajectory of this whole business right now. And it's and there's also urgency to ship features. And we have literally, like, four big features all in different stages of development right now. And and, like, two of them, at least, are, like, in the end and should should technically be ready to ship in June, but it'll be during the time that I'm away.
Brian Casel:So realistically, I I'll probably push it to when I'm back, but, like, there like, we we might be able to ship these new mobile apps. Those are those are probably the the closest. So Yeah. Those and also custom domains are are close. Okay.
Brian Casel:Like the ability to map your own domain with a c name.
Jordan Gal:I I think the stress for myself, for you, for a lot of people listening, it comes from you you you don't want to compromise on the freedom to spend time with family. Right? Part of the part of the reason you're doing what you do and how you do it is to have that freedom, and then the pressure becomes self imposed and the stress is self imposed. It's not someone telling you what you can and can't do, but you, you know, you're an adult. You have to acknowledge that these responsibilities don't go away because you wanna go away.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah. And I I think that this is gonna be, like, an interesting trip because it's like it's a little bit of everything, actually, in this in this first of we've got this, like, massive flight across the world. So there's Yeah.
Jordan Gal:It's a big trip.
Brian Casel:You know? So so there's just, like, a lot of hours on the plane. I'm sure I'm gonna crack open the laptop for for a lot of that and probably sleep a lot too. Yeah. I don't work
Jordan Gal:complaints. It's my policy. No work on planes.
Brian Casel:Oh, it's I don't I'm actually all I'm, like, weird about it. I I actually, like, I sorta like the time box and the you're in this capsule, and then I actually, like, ship something. You know? And then when we're there, the the trip is, like, different phases. Like, the first week or so, we're sort of just hanging out with with some of my wife's family in in Cebu in The Philippines.
Brian Casel:We'll we'll be kinda tooling around and stuff, but we don't have any, like, major activities in that first week. We're sort of just hanging out in the Airbnb in in the city. And then and then we go to Barakay, which is like a beach resort area of The Philippines. Do that for a few days, and then we fly over to Cambodia and see some sights.
Jordan Gal:And then, yeah, more tourism. I I try to separate it out into weeks or days that I should do no work. I should really be unplugged. And then the other times where it's a hybrid, if we go to Michigan for two weeks, I'm not gonna not look at my computer for two weeks. That's just not realistic.
Jordan Gal:But I do wanna I I do wanna silo off a certain number of days where I'm actually checked out of work, focused on the family. I'm not looking at my phone. I I have some difficulty, but but it helps me justify working certain days and not working other days.
Brian Casel:I think that my expectation is usually, like, I I'm absolutely not gonna have any full days of work. It's not like, you know, like, every day while on vacation is, like, you know, 80% plus vacation mode. Mhmm. But there's there just are inevitable downtimes when we're when we're resting or, you know, we're just sort of hanging out, and I've got nothing else to do but take out the the laptop. But, like, I I don't have the expectation like I do when I'm at home where it's like, okay.
Brian Casel:I'm in the office. I'm gonna ship this today. Like, that's that's not happening. I think this is this
Jordan Gal:is where your asynchronous work life shines because Yeah.
Brian Casel:Like, we don't I there's no, like, normal meetings that are being canceled while I'm away.
Jordan Gal:We just
Brian Casel:don't we just don't have those meetings in the first place.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. That that's good. My stress isn't it's more external. It's you know, as we've focused on mid market and changing the sales process, I have taken a more active role in demos, second conversations, rock jumps on the technical discovery calls. So we specifically want to engage in real time with both prospects and the SIs and agencies that serve those prospects.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:So that that's a win. Today, I had a one hour demo with an SI. I didn't know what an SI was three months ago. Right? Systems integrator.
Jordan Gal:Mhmm. So these these Magento specifically and which will forever be known as Adobe Commerce now because I'm with it, and Salesforce Commerce Cloud, the way those ecosystems operate is through SIs. So merchants always have a partner to do the development work with the platform. And so those are like the gatekeepers. Those are the trusted third parties with credibility.
Jordan Gal:That's who the merchant trusts. So it's much more likely for us to succeed and go into market when we make allies with those SIs.
Brian Casel:So doing it a one hour SIs. Sorry. Like, are those, like, independent contractors, or are they working like like, each company has their own SI, and that's your point of contact that you're
Jordan Gal:No. The easiest way to think of them is agencies, but but specifically geared toward accomplishing things that merchants need on platforms. And and these are these are big some of them are big organizations that I I so I went to Salesforce event this week. It's my first time going to a Salesforce event, and they don't mess around. It is rocking with music and, like, you know, they go all out.
Jordan Gal:It was interesting to think about my experiences at Shopify Unite, which is Shopify's big event of the year, and then go to a Salesforce connections that so Salesforce Commerce Cloud's, like, big thing for the year. This isn't even, like, Dreamforce or whatever, like, their super mega gigantic event, which is for all of Salesforce. Because Salesforce is still a CRM first and foremost, and they have a bunch of products. The the number of acronyms that I have to get to know Right. Is is Funnel new language.
Jordan Gal:It's it's unbelievable. And so when when we go around the floor of that event, you're talking to SIs. Mhmm. There are merchants, which are like like these golden nuggets with a glow that walk around that everyone wants a piece of.
Nathan Barry:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:But the people on the floor talking mostly are these SIs. The merchants are the most important thing in the ecosystem, obviously.
Brian Casel:What so so is this like a typical, like, trade show where there's just, like, a lot of vendors kind of presenting their their stuff? And
Jordan Gal:Yeah. It's a it's a giant event in a huge hall. And on the edges of the hall are are, like, speaker panels going on. And in the middle of the floor are people with booths that talk about their their company, what they can do, and
Brian Casel:all that. I've I've never really experienced one of these, like, typical trade shows. I know, like, so many folks in the in the in our SaaS world, like, do these things, especially if you're in these niches. Right? Like but my my experience with, quote, unquote, conferences is basically, like, MicroConf and Founder Summit and, you know, like, stuff like that where it's really more about networking and learning and being part of a community, and it's not so much about, like, here's a big floor where people sell
Jordan Gal:shit to each other. You know? Very, very different. You know, MicroConf is it really is. It's a community that comes together.
Brian Casel:Yeah. It's like almost like don't even call it the same thing. It's something totally different.
Jordan Gal:Yes. It it is like a conference. Right? People are getting together and talking and they feel like they're in the same industry. This is, you know, one competitor booth next to another competitor booth
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:And then the platform itself and it very, very different.
Brian Casel:Who who, like, really goes obviously, these companies go to for for the sales and promotional, you know, opportunities. But, like so is is is it I I'm assuming it's more about developing these partnerships, especially with these, like, SI agencies. Right? Like Mhmm. It's not like you're really gonna go and and find a lot of like direct customers there or or would you?
Jordan Gal:Okay. So so both happened. Right? We we the goal is networking in person, which deepens relationships, and the whole ballgame is relationships and trust and credibility and friendships and working with who you like and that sort of thing. So it's like conference during the day.
Jordan Gal:And then at night, these SIs are putting on big parties on, like, a rooftop you know, fortunately, it was right here in Chicago. So I was able to just go in for the day while someone on the team, Rob, who runs partnerships, who we hired from the Salesforce ecosystem specifically to introduce us into this ecosystem. It was great to confirm that he was a great hire because walking around with him was like, he knew everyone. Everyone loves him. It made me feel very fortunate that that we have him on board.
Jordan Gal:And then you go to these big parties at night, and that is where you are solidifying relationships. Mhmm. And making introductions and say, oh, that sounds amazing. Let's get on a call next week and just so there is, like, a circuit of these. So every few months, there is an event that all these same people go to, and they solidify their relationships even deeper.
Jordan Gal:And if you are not there, you are going to miss out on that. And that's how ecosystem works.
Brian Casel:This is an area where I really think I need to up my game is just literally going to more of these kind of events. Because, like, I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think it's a it's gonna be actually like a real channel for us. Because we do have, there are coaches and there are influencers of coaches who do send us customers. And it happens randomly, and I feel like we just get lucky every once in a while. Like, right now, have this Mhmm.
Brian Casel:Pretty huge it's like a husband wife duo. They're they're like influencers of like, they they have a pretty large audience of literally just all coaches.
Jordan Gal:Okay.
Brian Casel:I've never I've never heard of them before, never met them before. They just found Clarity Flow. They became a great customer of ours, and then they do their own webinar events and their own, like, big product launches all about how to do a coaching business. And they're
Jordan Gal:Okay.
Brian Casel:Running it all on Clarity Flow.
Jordan Gal:Oh, man. Dreaming. And, like and
Brian Casel:they do this once every two months or so. And when they do, like, it's literally a spike of customers for us, you know.
Jordan Gal:Right. Just take all of that same concept, reduce the amount of luck required.
Brian Casel:That's the thing. It's like it's like how how do I double down on this strategy? And it's like, the only thing that I can really think of is just go to more conferences and meet more people and develop these relationships.
Jordan Gal:You gotta put your you gotta put your socializing hat on and acknowledge that it is a multiplier for your business. If you go to a conference, if you go to you know, ConvertKit has something coming up.
Brian Casel:That's the one I I think it's going on right now. Like, that that was one on my list that I think I should be going Right.
Jordan Gal:So if you go there and you meet that husband and wife team and you have dinner together and you have drinks at a bar and you laugh and you get to know about each other's families and kids and dreams and, you know, what you do in life beyond business, that relationship's gonna bear more fruit in an authentic way. It's not gonna be like, oh, I I snagged them for more customers. It's gonna be like, we like each other, and we like doing business together, and now we do more business together. And Totally. Or you go to the bar and you meet someone totally new, and that so whatever it is, it it is
Brian Casel:100%. Yeah. Yep. Because, like, I and I've I've tried to do it, like, the lazy way of of, like, you know, reaching out online and emails and like and I I I'll do like webinars like remotely with people. I've done that before, but that's been like hit or miss and the, oh, like, not such a priority.
Brian Casel:We'll sort of push it off. Like, you see but like, when it's when you develop these in person relationships, I think that's the only way to like increase that luck surface area. You know?
Jordan Gal:Yep. And and when it comes time to sell your company?
Brian Casel:Yeah. You just have the the network. That you
Jordan Gal:know that that's so it's got it is a great post on LinkedIn by Drew Sanaki. So Mhmm. Friend of mine from the ecommerce world, great operator. And he he recently wrote a post on how he regrets not going to more events with his previous company. Because when it was time to sell the business, he just didn't know all the right people and is convinced that he would have done a lot better if he just had more surface area,
Brian Casel:you know, potential buyers. And, like, the interesting thing is, like, looking back on literally all of my businesses, like, I don't even consider myself to be this to be one of my strengths is, like, professional networking. I I just it sort of just happens big you know, because I feel like I get lucky. But looking back, like, I think that, you know, AudienceOps certainly had a lot of customers come through, like, somehow connected to my relationships through MicroConf or through this podcast or just meeting people. You know?
Brian Casel:And and that stuff
Jordan Gal:leads to audience ops? Someone from network Someone has
Brian Casel:from from yeah. Exactly. So that stuff happens.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. So we it's funny. What what at some point during the event, I was, like, reporting back to Rock and Jessica just giving them updates because, you know, they're interested and they wanna know. I wanna keep everyone keep them excited about what's going on. And one of my messages back to them was whatever we have budgeted for events, it needs to go up.
Jordan Gal:Mhmm. Because the idea that our competition is walking around those same halls and we're not is is unacceptable. It is not Right. It is not a not a smart thing for us to do. So there is definitely a way to build a business without any of it.
Jordan Gal:For us right now in in this business, we have to get out on the circuit and make sure we are there. Yeah. Yeah. No no question. No question.
Brian Casel:It's like the other the other stuff.
Jordan Gal:Market and, like, that that complex sales process, it's infinitely better and more effective
Brian Casel:I mean
Jordan Gal:people know who you are.
Brian Casel:We spend so much time on over the years on this podcast talking about, like, what are we doing on marketing and funnels and checking and and and putting these like, yeah. Like, we're always gonna have engines in place to produce content and and execute on SEO and run ads and and do your email marketing and out and sales outreach and sales demos. All all those processes are gonna happen day to day. That's how the business runs. Yep.
Brian Casel:But, mean, I I feel like nothing really makes more of an impact than having these high value relationships or or a personal network or a company brand awareness network
Jordan Gal:Mhmm.
Brian Casel:And just do like, because, like, look again, like, looking back, like, to me, that that's what has been you know, whatever whatever pieces of success I've had, they they've the the big changes have come from that. And the Yeah. The the the little wins of, yeah, we we had this SEO ranking or or that that funnel sort of worked. Like, yeah, those things happen. But, like, to really make an impact, especially early on, you need these big wins, and that can just happen in a partnership.
Brian Casel:You know?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. It just increase the serendipity. So Yep. Here's an example. I think I maybe I mentioned a few weeks ago, I I sent out a tweet and a a very serious merchant on Salesforce Commerce Cloud, one that we would all recognize and that we would kill to bring on as our first big Salesforce merchant because that would be that would have the same impact that native deodorant had with Cardhook.
Jordan Gal:At Cardhook, before Native came on board, we were working with the drop shippers, and we love them, but they were they a lot of them actually specifically didn't want people to know that they were using us because they were using us as, like, a secret weapon. Mhmm. And they didn't want their competition to know. So it was, like, very counterproductive. Like, can we broadcast your success?
Jordan Gal:Yes. I need you in the line. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
Jordan Gal:But when Native came on board, that was like a beacon of credibility, and that allowed other direct to consumer companies like Magic Spoon and Goally and these others that are more careful and a bit more risk averse on the vendors they choose, it opened it gave them a green light.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:So we are climbing our way up that credibility ladder at Rally also, and this is one that would, you know, put us on the map there. So I set up a call earlier in the week on Monday. Now I Zoom for a living. Right? This is this is what I do all the time.
Jordan Gal:The one time my camera doesn't work on Zoom, it's with this prospect. So this is like a get to know you. Right? No other people, no solutions engineer, no salespeople, just me and you. Let's just get to know each other, and my camera doesn't work.
Jordan Gal:I was so upset. So I did my best, but I don't think I'm at my best without the camera because that's the connection you're trying to make.
Brian Casel:So you want audio only?
Jordan Gal:That that's right. And then what happens? Turns out my contact, the person I had the call with, was in Chicago doing a panel on how they just went composable on the front end. And so I was able to go to the panel and shake hands afterward and say, I'm the guy without the camera. And that just moved the relationship forward another little bit.
Jordan Gal:And Hell, yeah. This right. This is something that is gonna be a six month process to see even if we if we could even get in the room.
Brian Casel:Yep.
Jordan Gal:But it moves it forward. It's just luck because you're in the room.
Brian Casel:I love it. Yep. Hell yeah. That's awesome.
Jordan Gal:Alright. What do got going on?
Brian Casel:You know, I What's new? I I was in my mastermind group yesterday and I won't obviously go into everything that that I went into there. But, you know, one high level takeaway of what I'm seeing, you know, because I I obviously, I look at the numbers all the time and and and what's happening with the business. And it's it's been in this weird like, it's a it's a difficult phase that we're in right now. And I'm coming to terms with what that actually means for the current trajectory.
Brian Casel:So it's it's just a weird phase right now. Like, we're seeing MRR grow. Okay.
Jordan Gal:We like On
Brian Casel:multi month basis. We just had our biggest growth month yet in a while. Awesome. But that but, you know, digging into the numbers, like, that's mostly due to the price increase plus a few other again, like, I think some, like, lucky factors. A competitor shutting down.
Brian Casel:We've had a couple of these, like, affiliate webinars, like like, kind of fire off unexpectedly and sending us a bunch of traffic. So all that's good. But, you know, we're still seeing a lot of the same churn numbers that we've seen over the last year and a half. We're seeing, you know, again, like, every day I'm getting these customer requests, the feature requests. When are you gonna be shipping this?
Brian Casel:When are you gonna be shipping that? Or or they just think that we have all these features that we're sort of promoting on the website that we don't really have yet. You know, so there's just I I could tell I could see and I could feel there's still a disconnect in the product. Mhmm. And it is showing in some of the numbers.
Brian Casel:So like the the top line revenue keeps going up and that's good because we're basically replacing these older, lower priced customers with higher priced customers now. But but we still you know, I I actually feel like we're somewhat close to what we might call product market fit, but but the product side of that equation is not there yet. Like, we we clearly have gaps in the product that we are actively working on shipping, and I and I think that we are close. We like, we are literally close on some of these features. And I think I talked about it last week, like eliminating the coming soon label on our on our pricing page.
Brian Casel:Like, we're we're close
Jordan Gal:to that. And
Brian Casel:and once we get there and after I'm back from my trip in July, like, we'll be in a in a place where we've shipped these big features and, like, now I can just go hard on these sales demos and everything that they're asking for, we we now have. Right? So, like, that's the thing that's sort of right around the corner. But until we get there, we're still in this weird kind of difficult place where it's like, yes, we're customers are still signing up. There's still a lot of excitement.
Brian Casel:I'm getting sales demo requests. I'm getting all these different things, but we don't quite have the have the the product yet. And it and it does result in some churn. It it results in, like, you know, not great activation at at times. And so it's like
Jordan Gal:You know the truth. You you that It's
Brian Casel:like I that that's the truth underneath the numbers. And I and I have to be okay with that. Like, we're we're doing the like, we're executing the right things. We have the right priorities right for what we need right now, but it's still gonna be several more weeks of, like Yeah. Kinda kinda like cloudy skies until things open up.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. You know? That sounds like a a mature approach, you know, a mature analysis because it it's definitely better than MRR going down and having the same issue. Definitely better than that.
Brian Casel:But but
Jordan Gal:also, there's no need to delude yourself on where you feel like things are. So if it's mixed, that's okay. It reminds me at Cardhook at one point when I would send out an investor update and it showed revenue going up by a lot. But I was in the same boat. I knew it was mixed.
Jordan Gal:Revenues going up. We're happy about that, but churn this month was 18%.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Right? So the responses, the people who are not in software would be like, oh my god. Amazing. But, like, Rob Walling would be like, how's how's it going on churn? What's next in the because you you understand where things are going.
Jordan Gal:If you take a snapshot and you say, MRR went up by 10% this month. Isn't that great? Sure. But you're trying to build a machine that really works, not one that's gonna fall apart on you down the road.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Exactly. And I and I think that I mean, that's the other thing is, like, just looking at, like, the marketing numbers. Like, we we get a base level of organic traffic, and that's gonna result in x number of sign ups and conversions every month. And and I think a lot of that just speaks to, like, okay.
Brian Casel:Like, there you know, it's not like we're knocking it out of the park on those numbers and those conversion rates, but we have rates that look like, okay. There's there's at least some, like, base level that's, like, acceptable that that shows, like, what people are seeing on the website they are compelled by and they want to sign up for, and a portion of them do wanna buy it. But there's still, like, gaps in, like, what they're ultimately really looking for and, you know, and so, like, that that's just really, really clear. And we're right around the corner, but it's not it's not there yet. You know?
Jordan Gal:That is both exciting and also speaks to the frustration at how long this stuff takes.
Brian Casel:Yep.
Jordan Gal:It's just the nature of it.
Brian Casel:I got another thing that, like, I I'm sure you'll have a a lot to say. I mean, we we, you know, we talk about the same topics over and over. Wait. Hold on.
Jordan Gal:Do I need to put on my Apple Vision Pro scuba goggles before
Brian Casel:Oh, man. We could just we could just spend the rest of the the pod, like, talking about that. Or I mean, dude, there's so many other stories in the world that are just crazy right now.
Jordan Gal:Don't don't go politics on me.
Brian Casel:I I won't. I mean, do you have you followed this this PGA Liv tour merger thing?
Jordan Gal:Holy shit.
Brian Casel:I mean, it dude, that this is I'm actually surprised. Alright. I'm just gonna go on a whole side. Let's do it. Let's do it.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Like, I'm actually surprised at how this story is not blowing up as, like, the number one story across all feeds. It's it's pretty big.
Jordan Gal:They don't want it. What if you were them, would you want it to blow up? You you just don't.
Brian Casel:No. But like this is such a major Yes. It it it is. It it's not it transcends just sports itself. It's Agree.
Brian Casel:I mean, it's this could be one of the biggest stories in all of sports history in in some in some sense, it's like history. Like, you I mean It's
Jordan Gal:fascinating because it crosses over into culture, and it crosses over
Brian Casel:into world politics.
Jordan Gal:And world politics. That's right. That's right. You you you like, just talked all this trash Yes. About how the ethics of the Saudis are unacceptable and, like, they brought in, like, nine eleven into the hole.
Brian Casel:And and, like, half of the PGA players did not take the multiple hundreds of millions of dollars to go play for Liv. Oops. And then Sorry, Rory. Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Casel:Right? And Tiger and and and all these and, like oh, man. And then now now, like, the PGA kind of like, they they've been dealing in secret for the last seven weeks. Now, like, Saudi, like, basically owns all
Jordan Gal:of the
Brian Casel:golf at this point. Saudi came in,
Jordan Gal:and they didn't just grab a team. Right? They grabbed the whole league, and they did it in a part of American culture where exclusion, elitism, sexism, antisemitism, racist like, all of it. All of it is all mixed up at, like, a fundamental level. When I go onto a private golf course, I have something in the bottom of my stomach that doesn't feel right because I don't know what to wear and how to walk and what to say and when am I supposed to pick it up or the Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:It has just that bullshit just overhanging the entire damn sport. And they talked all this shit about what was and is not acceptable and is and how they get to dictate that. And then they just sold out like everybody else.
Brian Casel:That's unbelievable.
Jordan Gal:They just sold. Oh, it's it's
Brian Casel:That makes it, like, raises all these questions. It's like it it's almost like, well, that's that's now, like, the the playbook. If you're a if you're a state or or a power that has money that, like, forever, I mean, and you want to take over a major part of culture in the Western world, like, I mean, you look at, like, like, tennis could be next. Right? Or any other major sport, like, like, there's a playbook now that they could basically follow.
Jordan Gal:Right. It's it's look. I I am no expert in this stuff, so I I could be wrong on a bunch of the stuff. But it looks like what happened is that they identified the opportunity in in the fact that the players are more important than the league.
Brian Casel:Right. Like, they they almost like they they targeted a league where it's like the players are just independent contractors, and they can start to pick them off one by one, you know, which is what they did. Right? You know?
Jordan Gal:Right. Because because the the PGA wanted to they wanted things to stay as is where the PGA is more important than individuals. But in reality, out in the actual market of fans and dollar spenders, the individual people are more important than the league. Yep. And so if if they can identify the arbitrage opportunity of, well, we're gonna pay them what we think they deserve, it just starts to disrupt all the the status quo.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. It it'll it'll be interesting to see what happens. Right? Some leagues are stronger than others. Right?
Jordan Gal:The NFL has a
Brian Casel:Yes. They're they're, like, really, like, locked down. You know?
Jordan Gal:Yes. Yes. The NBA, like, it it is interesting. Like Yeah. You right now, you could basically just target individual events now.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:You could just have, like, on, you know, on Augusta, on the masters, that weekend, you can just create a new event that same weekend with a bigger purse. What what do you what do you do?
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah. There and there's, like, some history there and all that. It's
Jordan Gal:it's Yes.
Brian Casel:But it it know, while we're
Jordan Gal:getting to have these business maneuverings in sport that's so public and so pop culture and and and out there and talked about and criticized.
Brian Casel:One of my, fate while we're talking about this, one of my favorite podcasts that I just started, listening to a lot is, the Joe Pompliano. Are you familiar with this?
Jordan Gal:I know Joe Pompliano? Yeah. Anthony Pompliano was, like, a big, big personality in crypto, and his brother Joe started coming out with these incredible threads on Twitter Yeah. About interesting
Brian Casel:It's it's his threads on Twitter in the form of a podcast. That's cool. Like, twenty minute shows where he just goes deep on, like like, an explainer on business plus sports. Like, the the the business behind sports. And it's I I learn something every single and it and it's about, like, the current events of of business and sports.
Jordan Gal:And he had
Brian Casel:a he had a really great breakdown of this whole PGA Live thing. Really great podcast. I definitely recommend it. Cool. Anyway Should we get back to I guess.
Brian Casel:To
Jordan Gal:our little
Brian Casel:that was good. That was good. We can
Jordan Gal:just talk about Apple next.
Brian Casel:Oh, man. Alright.
Jordan Gal:So so I I buried my lead. And for anyone who's still listening, now it's now it's just us here.
Brian Casel:What do you got?
Jordan Gal:We we closed our first 6 figure deal. Hell yeah. Goddamn, that feels good.
Brian Casel:Yes.
Jordan Gal:It it it felt like a real breakthrough.
Brian Casel:What okay. So what was what, you know, what can you share here about, like, what do you think ultimately was, like, the deciding factor? What what got them over the finish line?
Jordan Gal:At the end of the day, I think what it was, it was it took us getting a real deep understanding of what their problem was, what they were trying to accomplish, and then mapping that back to what we could do for them. And and that that's not one conversation. And it's it's multiple touch points and it's relationship building and trust building. And we learned a lot. It's it's a it's tough to admit or accept, but so, of course, how these things happen.
Jordan Gal:In the same week, we also lost a big opportunity, and that opportunity started maybe thirty or so days before this opportunity that we won. And looking back at the way we ran that process, I am, one, not surprised that we didn't win it. And two, if we started that process today, I think we'd have a much higher chance of winning it. Yeah. So it sucks, but it also feels like progress.
Brian Casel:Building out that muscle. You're you're stronger today than you were a few weeks.
Jordan Gal:Yes. Yes. So next time a big opportunity like that comes around, we'll have a better chance of winning it.
Brian Casel:I mean, do you think that it that, obviously, like, the you guys executed on the sales process and understanding what they wanted, and you can put together an offering that that fits their need. But, like, are you aware of what the different competing options that they were considering were?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. We we got to know all of that in detail. But and and that's really what what helped close the deal.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:Because we had a full understanding so that we weren't just we weren't competing on the basis of of do they wanna use our product or not. That that's, like, not enough. But to understand their options, their current situation, their history, where they want to go, what their team looks like, who the decision makers are, like we're we're starting to get an understanding of that complexity around that sales process.
Brian Casel:Because that that's how I that's how I've come to think about sales in general. Just boiling it down to to a super simple terms. It's not about convincing someone to buy or not. They they've already come to you with a need. They're going to fill that need somehow.
Brian Casel:Or or they've been already filling it somehow, they're switching.
Jordan Gal:Right. Or they can just come back to home base to continue doing it the way they are, which
Brennan Dunn:is what most people lose to. That's
Brian Casel:why Right. We all But that but even in that case, they're still filling it. They still have that need, and it's being filled in some way. Yep. Like, so, like, just to think about a sale, like, making a sale, it's not about, like, convincing them to take some new action.
Brian Casel:It's it's about being a bet the the better solution than their alternatives.
Jordan Gal:Yes. And what's most important to them?
Brian Casel:I'm cure like, you know, because you've been talking about how, like, you you know, you guys are so new at this sales process now and still figuring it out and your and the muscle is getting better. Mhmm. So there there clearly, there are still gaps, but they but but you guys were still able to overcome and make it happen.
Jordan Gal:Yes. And we made mistakes. Yeah. So so looking back over the course of the process, which in total was probably about sixty days, If we look at our interactions early on in the process, we did things that endangered the sale. Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:We did things that knowing what we know now, we wouldn't do the same way.
Brian Casel:Yep.
Jordan Gal:We the the points of communication, the people jumping in trying to be helpful but creating confusion instead of going through one point of contact, replying too quickly and a bit too eagerly. Right? You wanna be helpful, but it's not it can be counterproductive.
Brian Casel:Yep.
Jordan Gal:The and we we did some things that were right, and and maybe we didn't knowingly do them, but but they were still right.
Brian Casel:Yep. So establishing And it's and I guess there's part
Jordan Gal:of on and getting buy in that way and having it go over email and having the person say, yes. That makes sense to me in a documented way. Like, all this all this stuff was part of
Brian Casel:it. There's gotta be some level of, like, kind of building up this goodwill relationship building. Right? Like, to because, like, the the prospect on the other end, like, they they probably see and and know, like, okay. Like, they're navigating the sales process just like we are.
Brian Casel:Mhmm. But we both want this solution to be filled. So we're gonna we're gonna work with them to get to the finish line. Like, you know, like, I I'm just thinking about, like because lately, again, like, I I'm talking to customers every day, and I'm hearing complaints from customers all the time about, like, oh, this bug happened or, like, I just shared it with this huge audience, and and it think these things are breaking. Okay.
Brian Casel:And that sucks in the moment. And I and I hate to tell people, like, oh, we don't have that yet or something like that. But at the end of the day, like, most of these customers are still paying customers. Like, they still haven't left. And so so that's what I keep trying to wrap my head around is that, like, there are customers who routinely are not super thrilled about the experience, but they're still here because they're assessing all of their options.
Brian Casel:And we're not perfect for them yet, but they haven't found any other solutions that are perfect. And that that puts us still in the running. So, like, we're we're we're gonna be more and more smoother and perfect for them in the future.
Jordan Gal:Yes.
Brian Casel:But, like but it's good to know that, like, we're we're getting there, and they and they know it. So and and I I'd imagine there's something like that happening in in your deals that are coming together. Right? Where it's
Jordan Gal:like Absolutely. Absolutely. They they
Brian Casel:can smell the gaps too, but they're still in it because it's like
Jordan Gal:Yeah. And you are creating value and growing the business while your product is imperfect. Yep. That's just that's just, you know, the norm. Yep.
Jordan Gal:Yep. So that it feels like a great validation and sending that out to our investors, like, lit up a few people because so I I went through, like, a little wave. Right? It was super, super happy. You know?
Jordan Gal:That's worth celebrating. It's a significant milestone, significant amount of money, changes the burn, all all that good stuff. Then the next day, I got the the no from the other big opportunity. So, of course, like, hey. You gotta even this thing out.
Jordan Gal:Don't ride too high. And then I started to think deeper about what it meant for the business, and I started to think, okay. So this mid market approach is is more validated. Mhmm. It also the math the math is dead obvious.
Jordan Gal:Do one of those deals a month, and you can grow in a much healthier way than doing 20 smaller deals.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:And related to that, it also tells you there's enough margin on that deal that we can hire really talented salespeople. And if you can marry great salespeople with a good product and pricing power, you you could build a, you know, a significant business. Mhmm. And and all of our investors and VC world in general in b to b, right, not consumer. But the real question, when I talk to investors, when I go in person and go to the conferences and have a beer with one of our investors, what they really wanna understand is how does this thing get to a 100,000,000 ARR?
Jordan Gal:Mhmm. And it's not it's not how do you get to a 100,000,000 ARR right now. It is does this have the DNA to get to a 100,000,000 ARR? Is it possible in your market with your model to do that?
Brian Casel:Yep.
Jordan Gal:Because if not, then you should probably look look to make some changes.
Brian Casel:Yeah. And and this is like the first step that like your your recent changes in this direction are are worth taking Show that. Taking more steps like
Jordan Gal:yourself. Yes. Because if we look at if we look at our model in the SMB, it it's and then you look at how difficult it is to onboard people and and all that. It's tough to square how that happens. Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:But then if you look at the Adobe and the Salesforce Commerce Cloud and you look at those ecosystems and you just see one competitor that's stumbling and some people think will be out of business in the next six months. And then you look at, okay, you just closed one of those and that's, you know, a merchant that does tens of millions. It's not that they're small. It's just that there are a lot of other bigger ones. And it starts to dawn on you that, actually, there is a path to that, and maybe we took a few little steps in the right direction.
Jordan Gal:It's just really encouraging to say, okay. Now let's see what we can do to go further in that direction.
Brian Casel:Right. Right. Yep. Yep. So Yeah.
Brian Casel:I got I got one more small thing.
Jordan Gal:Not Apple.
Brian Casel:It's so cool, man. I've been I've been, like, really tuning into all that stuff. Like, I I'm not I'm not gonna get one of these things next year, but, like, I could I could see myself getting, like, the the the third generation of of the of the vision thing.
Jordan Gal:I I think that's a that's a normal response. Some people are hating. Some people are hating
Brian Casel:for for public There's always gonna be that.
Jordan Gal:Some people are fanboying. Yeah. It's it's it's all But
Brian Casel:I but you know what? If if Apple history is if you look at Apple's history, like, the watch wasn't a huge deal right when it came out of the gate. Even the iPhone was a little bit, like, weird and
Jordan Gal:very phone with a better screen. Yeah. You didn't realize what it was really gonna do.
Brian Casel:It it takes a few generations of the product and then all of a sudden, like, spatial computing your eyesight is the new thing. And everyone has a strategy for it.
Jordan Gal:I like that it is augmented and it's not metaverse cartoon world.
Brian Casel:Yes.
Jordan Gal:That it
Brian Casel:is It's it's very reality. Like, that's
Jordan Gal:always all the things you're about it. Your regular field of vision that has layers alongside of
Brian Casel:it. I've been on this this is not the thing I was gonna talk about. Like, I I late lately, I've been I've been literally this week, I've been like like, back has been starting to hurt a lot. Right? From sitting at the desk and using the the mouse and and being old and and like, I've I've tried every single mouse.
Brian Casel:I've tried every single posture, all all these different things. But I think that what the thing I actually need right now is like to get really good at keyboard shortcuts. I've always been okay at it, but I but now I I'm I'm really just trying to avoid the mouse and the trackpad as much as possible and stay on the keys. That's better for my back. Right?
Brian Casel:So there's there's that. But then I then I'm looking at this VisionPRO thing, and Mhmm. They're they're they're targeting the work experience the work environment. Like, you can do your work in this in this AR world area. Right?
Brian Casel:And the other cool thing is that it's like, you're just using your your hands at like like, I think the the mouse click is your thumb and your index finger. Right? Yep. And you could so it's like More natural. From from a natural posture standpoint, you're you're removing these external pieces of hardware that you have to have your hands and arms and and posture around in order to do your work.
Brian Casel:And if you start to picture yourself in the future, and if this becomes the norm where like a lot of us are in our remote workspace, we've got multiple monitors around the room in this AR space, and I could I could be in a comfortable chair, comfortable seating position. Like, that that's just been on my mind this week because I've been, like, trying to get away from my mouse and fix
Jordan Gal:my access. How it impacts your physical
Brian Casel:approach to But it's it's almost like that like, just the the way that the interface works in this Vision Pro, like, that's pretty compelling to me. Like Mhmm. You know? I I don't know if it's $4,000 compelling to me, but, like, it's
Jordan Gal:Yo.
Brennan Dunn:Right. But what
Jordan Gal:if it's, you know, 1,200 and then you get financed and it feels like a cell phone plan? Exactly. Right. It'll it'll it'll get to all that.
Brian Casel:Yep. Super interesting. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:What what were what were you going to
Brian Casel:try to stay on track. Hold on. I, you know, I I did an a monthly update with my team a couple days ago. And it came out of and this was something that I I had intended to do more of this year, which is like if you know, you talk about how you how you do this, like, all hands, where you're giving the the whole team, like, an update on where things stand and what where we're headed in the next few weeks and strategy and celebrate the wins and all this kind of stuff. And I have been minimal to nonexistent on that kind of stuff in my in the way that I operate my teams.
Brian Casel:I've I've always been very, very hands off, extremely minimal on meetings, extremely minimal on, like, big announcements. It's really just more like day to day. Let's just get our work done. We're almost a 100 asynchronous. I don't do team one on ones.
Brian Casel:I don't do stand ups. I don't do weeklies. I don't do any of that. And and I think that that that's good in some ways, and and we do have some gaps in in without that kind of stuff. And it and I was actually reminded of this from my marketing assistant this week.
Brian Casel:We were in our routine day to day async video messaging back and forth. We're just talking about a project and it was sort of like random out of nowhere, like unrelated to the project. She was like, you know, I sort of, like you haven't done one of those updates in a while and I've been wondering about that. Like, you should do that more. Like, she just kind of mentioned that offhand.
Jordan Gal:Okay. Okay.
Brian Casel:And and I was like, you know, I I've been meaning to do it, and I keep actually forgetting to do it because I'm so zeroed in on on the actual project work that I forget to, like, come up for air and talk to the team about what the trajectory looks like. Right? So Okay. First days of June, I I, you know, I recorded a twenty minute message. Like, here's here's an update on where things are at.
Brian Casel:This is our MRR. This is the growth. Here's what we're seeing, the good, the bad. Let's celebrate some wins from from everyone on the team, what they've been working on. Let you know?
Brian Casel:And it sort of, like, felt good to especially to, like, acknowledge the the the the wins of each person in front of everyone.
Jordan Gal:Yes. Yes. Because they're human.
Brian Casel:They're they're human. And I think I think part of me is like, well, what, like, why do we need to do that kind of stuff when I'm talking to this same crew every single day anyway in the in the thick of our projects? Like, it it it just feels redundant to have this higher level meeting or or announcement or presentation about what's going on when it's like, alright. Well, let's in just a few hours from now, we're still talking about the the current projects. Okay.
Brian Casel:But, like, it it I think it was still good for the team. And, like, it it wasn't like night and day, but, like, I could tell in in the days that followed that, like, everyone just felt a little bit more, I don't know, like, on point, a little bit more active, a little bit more motivated. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but, like, I just think it's helpful. And I and I gotta make more of an effort to, you know, like, at least once a month, like, come up for air, share some numbers, share some wins, give an update, talk about what's you know, because I think this also comes back to, like, I I know and I see so much more about what's going on in the business and the product and the customers than what they see. They only see their the projects that are in front of them.
Brian Casel:Yeah. And and it's and I have been struggling to communicate to my team what exactly are our priorities right now, and how should we we be thinking about what's important and what's secondary. You know? And I and I need everyone to be on the same page, and I and that's how you do it, I guess. You know?
Brian Casel:But I but that's that's like a a skill and a and a and a routine and a workflow that I've never really been good at. Like like, just, you know, keeping the the high level vision, like, communicated. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Yes. So so there are enough things related to what you just said that I cannot remember all the things that were triggered in my mind as you were talking because it's it's really complicated and interconnected. What you are struggling with, I believe, is the same thing I struggled with at Cardhook when it was four of us, and then it went to six and then eight of us very quickly. Mhmm. And when it was four of us, it felt so connected and so straightforward that none of that was necessary.
Jordan Gal:It was That's how
Brian Casel:I always feel about it now. Like, there's there's for you and then I
Jordan Gal:jump into Zoom thirty minutes later and then
Brian Casel:talk to her. Right right now, it's like me plus five. There's four of them are developers. One's a marketing person.
Jordan Gal:Okay. And and I I know for me, it was a bit shallow in the motivation related to the business. The motivation was like, four of us, let's get together. Let's make some money. It was like kind of, you know, straightforward.
Jordan Gal:And then as soon as you hire as soon as we hired the number five and the 678 pretty quickly, I remember I remember Ben basically pulled me aside and was like, these people, these new people, they don't care about making money. Mhmm. They're they're they're they're making their money with their salary, and they need more. They need more motivation than you making money as the business owner. And I would, like, kinda snap myself in the forehead like, yeah.
Jordan Gal:Okay. Obviously.
Brian Casel:That is such a good point.
Jordan Gal:Now now here's the struggle, though. The struggle is how to do that authentically because I couldn't bring myself to get up on a chair and talk about how we're gonna change the world with better abandoned cart software. I was like, what? It felt so inauthentic. Yes.
Jordan Gal:And so I had to find authentic themes that were motivating and interesting that I could speak to without feeling like a fraud. I I found that in two places. I found that in making customers' businesses better because these are real people you would talk to and get to know. And when they did better, like, were happier. Their lives are better.
Jordan Gal:Their families are better. And I felt like I could I could hang on to that as a true motivator that made sense to me. And then I also looked around at the team and their day to day so so two things connected. Their day to day happiness at work mattered because I cared about them. And then right next to that, their ability to do interesting creative work that goes beyond what I tell them to do as the next task is that's the superpower.
Jordan Gal:That's the higher grade people and let them do their work thing. But if you if they aren't happy at work and like working with the people that they're working with, they won't take the little task that's on their desk and use their mind and creativity to go beyond it to understand what's next and how that's connected to the current task.
Brian Casel:100%. I I love that. That that's that's awesome, man. Because and that's that that is what makes it, I think, difficult for me sometimes when when it's like, I only relate to this in terms of, like, building a business. Right?
Brian Casel:Like but I can't I can't expect my team to think about it in those terms. They're they're just thinking about it like Yes. Is this is their their livelihood. Like, this is what they they they come in every day, and they're they're working on this thing. And, like, yeah, they enjoy their work.
Brian Casel:They enjoy their craft, but, like, they don't own the business like I do. So I can't expect them to care about the business like I do. You know?
Jordan Gal:Not in that same way. Not in the relationship to owning equity in the business and the potential upside of that in the future. That that's not their calculus. It's not that same way. And that's that's okay.
Jordan Gal:Yep. And and if they can leave and get the same salary elsewhere, then you you gotta give them more. And then all of sudden, that that starts to be an another job of yours along with what you regularly do. And that's why I mean, that's I think, that that can make a tremendous difference.
Brian Casel:I I really the actual performance of the
Jordan Gal:business and your happiness day to day.
Brian Casel:I I believe it. You know? And and also, like, a piece of that is, like, helping them understand what the priorities are. Like, especially on the on the marketing side, my marketing person, like, she actively asks, like you know, because we do have a lot of different things that we're trying to do. But, you know, she needs to know, like, like, where she she should, like, spend her time and energy.
Brian Casel:And, also, like, she's suggesting things like like, yeah. I'm gonna execute on this stuff, but, like, what what if I get into a little bit of this over here? Like, let let's get that going. And and I have to be sort of, like, sensitive to, like like like, she can't just keep doing the same thing every single day. She needs to mix it up a little bit and get creative on on this thing over there so that we're, you know, just making it, like, a a good creative role for for people.
Brian Casel:You know? Yeah. Developers is a little bit more straightforward. Like, we have a queue of of issues that they're working on. But but even that, I could I could sort of tell, like, what each person's different strengths and interests are in terms of the type of issues that that are taken on.
Brian Casel:You know?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Where where this became very real for me is going one level above the individual contributor level. So hiring someone who is experienced and a manager, then it becomes really a matter of, okay. Now now I feel like I'm performing for them because because you want well, keep them. You wanna keep them happy, and you want them to be happy so that the people that report to them are really happy.
Jordan Gal:And then you start to realize like, oh, I need to create like an environment where they can grow and they can get better. And they're thinking about their career on what happens after they leave your company. And so the title matters. That, you know, it it starts to be a few steps removed from the customer and the problem and the revenue.
Brian Casel:Right. It is it is
Jordan Gal:a few steps removed, but it's like you can't go that far without getting that right for really talented people.
Brian Casel:And the other thing that I'm becoming more comfortable with and, like, doing a little bit differently in this company than in the previous ones is just being, like, fully transparent about everything. Numbers, MRR, customers.
Jordan Gal:Are you currently fully transparent?
Brian Casel:Now I am. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Okay. Interesting.
Brian Casel:I wasn't. Like in Audience Ops, I wasn't. You know? I just You just kinda
Jordan Gal:left that off to the side.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I mean, whatever. You you could probably do some back of the math and and see how many clients are we serving and how much are they paying. They get a general ballpark of what our revenue is, but I've never had meetings or presentations where I'm sharing numbers or growth rates or churn rates or anything like that with the team. Right?
Jordan Gal:I think people love that stuff. Love it because they it feels like you're being treated like an adult.
Brian Casel:I and I I also think that, like, in this type of business, a a SaaS startup, we're still we're still grinding it out. We're we're being scrappy. We're small. I I think not like, the more I can get comfortable with with being transparent now while we're early, this is actually when it's interesting to be transparent. It's like, look.
Brian Casel:We just we just tripled our MRR because we in in a matter of months because we're From the work that you did. We're still a baby business where where you can still double and triple. Right? Like Mhmm. And and they could, like, literally, like, see this kind and and feel the difference in, like, the support tickets that come through.
Brian Casel:And, like and and so, like, I'm I'm just, like, accepting. Like, just be fully transparent. Don't don't feel like, oh, they they shouldn't know these numbers or what are the implications of sharing this or that. Like, just share it all, and it's it's it just makes it frankly easier, and I actually think it's more meaningful. It it it adds more meaning to everybody's work here.
Jordan Gal:Yes. It it leans into the actual advantage that because I because I'm
Brian Casel:not super public about numbers publicly as as people know. Like Sure.
Jordan Gal:That's but who cares?
Brian Casel:But we're all working in inside this business. We should know what's going on.
Jordan Gal:Yes. The public is the public. The the Yeah. The the startup is a conspiracy. It's a few people getting together saying, we're just gonna change shit.
Jordan Gal:How about that? We're just gonna we're just gonna show up
Brian Casel:Yep.
Jordan Gal:And be this new thing that changes the way people behave, changes the way money flows, changes the way their customers experience it. That's like, you know, that's ballsy. And it's really fun and it's actually the most attractive thing about a startup. So I recently learned that someone that we hired had an offer at the same time that I didn't know about from a a much larger company. And from the outside, you you could look at it and say, that company has raised, I don't know, a $100,000,000, 500 who knows?
Jordan Gal:They have a 150 employees or whatever. You could think that's more attractive to someone. But if you lean into, well, if you join this group of 20 lunatics that are really trying to do things and you're gonna be the first one in this role, that gives them this sense of like, alright, I'm gonna do cool things here. It's gonna be more risk, but I'm gonna look back on this experience and say, look what we did together.
Brian Casel:There's other major benefits than just the salary You know?
Jordan Gal:Yes. Yes. And
Brian Casel:that and that's There's that's how we compete as as small scrappy startups. You know?
Jordan Gal:Yep. Yep. It's a beautiful thing. It's great. And it and it attracts just the right people who are actually not that motivated by money.
Jordan Gal:They're motivated by feeling great about what they do.
Brian Casel:It's it's weird because it's like it's it's super hard to find people who operate at a really who operate really well in this type of environment. But when you find them,
Jordan Gal:they're Yes.
Brian Casel:It's it's that's how it works.
Jordan Gal:Yep. Hallelujah. Alright. Awesome. Great place to end.
Jordan Gal:This wasn't long because it was so good. Yeah. Last week at school, I'm going off to the beach, celebrate with my kids.
Brian Casel:Hell, yeah.
Jordan Gal:Have a great weekend, everyone.
Brian Casel:Alright. Later, folks.
