[36] Building a Business From Your Passion w/ Sean McCabe (seanwes)
This is Bootstrap Web episode 36, where we'll be talking to Sean McCabe about building a business from your passion. Welcome to Bootstrap Web, the program for you, the founder who learns by doing as you bootstrap your business online. I am Jordan.
Speaker 2:And I'm Brian.
Speaker 1:And let's do this.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So so here we are. We're we're recording once again. For you, the listener, this is probably a week later, but you and I, we actually recorded one yesterday. So what's going on today, Jordan?
Speaker 1:That's right. Well, I'm I'm keeping busy. I'm really looking forward to today's conversation. We recently spoke about info products. And today, we get a chance to speak to Sean, someone who has done info products successfully and in a very interesting way, starting off with his passion and it's a pleasure to see someone do it so successfully and stick so close to what they love to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah. A great conversation with Sean. You guys are really in for a treat today. We covered so much. I mean, Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, this guy is just all over the place and and he recently had, you know, an incredibly successful launch of his learn lettering course. So we hear all about that and it's kinda some of the lessons along the way and really some of the things that put him in that position, you know, how he led up to that to that spot. So that was really cool to talk to him. But but what's going on in in your business right now?
Speaker 1:In my business, I am doing some juggling. Still working on that course, but almost done with it. Cardhook is picking up some momentum. We've got some partnerships going that are starting to result in more clients. So just keeping focused on clearing my plate and clearing my head and thinking about the next few months on where to make progress.
Speaker 1:And on top of that, you know, happily settling into Portland, Oregon.
Speaker 3:Very cool.
Speaker 2:How about
Speaker 1:you, Brian? What what's going on?
Speaker 2:So my family and I are taking a a much needed vacation next week. We're we're taking the the baby and the dog, getting in the car, and driving up to Maine, going into Acadia National Park. So gonna spend like four or five days there, and I'm really looking forward to that. I just haven't really had a nice break in a while since before the baby came around, so that's gonna be nice. But at the same time, I'm a little bit nervous about that.
Speaker 2:I mean, typically, it's not a problem to take a few days off and and take a break. Restaurant engine is pretty systemized and running itself and and that's been pretty great. However, I have three employees who work every day on Restaurant Engine and two of them are expecting their their first child and they actually have the same due date. And that due date is sometime this month. So I'm basically, right now, we're in that window of any day now, they're they're both gonna be, you know, saying goodbye for at least a couple weeks.
Speaker 2:And I'm a little bit of afraid that this is gonna happen while I'm on vacation next week.
Speaker 1:Yes. And so you're you're bringing the laptop on vacation.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I wasn't going to, but I I think I better throw it throw it in the car.
Speaker 1:Yes. That's okay. Gotta gotta get it done. And Maine this time of year is beautiful. Those little tiny blueberries, those things are delicious.
Speaker 1:So enjoy yourself. Try to relax and clear your heads. It's good
Speaker 2:for you. Blueberries. I didn't I didn't know Maine was that
Speaker 1:Yeah. They have these tiny little blueberry things up in Maine. Yeah. Really good.
Speaker 2:Oh, we'll definitely be getting some lobster and and yeah, I'll have to look out for those blueberries for sure. Yeah. But just kinda taking that break next week and restaurant engines kinda humming along. Info products are are humming along. I'm doing a lot of work on that lately, trying to trying not to lose focus.
Speaker 2:I know I've had issues with that in the past but I think everything is going pretty well. So why don't we why don't we head right into our talk today with, Sean McCabe?
Speaker 1:Let's do it. Let's take it away. Alright.
Speaker 2:Okay. So we're here. Today, we are talking to, Sean McCabe. Sean, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3:Hey, Brian. It's great to be here. Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No problem. So so you and I have been we were just talking before before we got on, and and we kinda knew each other for a couple of years now going back into the, you know, the the web industry online and these kind of online groups. But yeah. You know, it's been really exciting to watch you as you've been kinda transitioning from freelance web design into hand lettering and to teaching a a course around lettering and podcasting and so so many other things.
Speaker 2:So it's kinda hard to decide where we should go today in this interview, but, you know, we've got a lot of good stuff planned, so let's let's get right into it. But, yeah, I'm doing a a pretty poor job describing. So why don't you tell people, like, who are you and what do you do?
Speaker 3:Yeah. If you had asked me that question three months ago, I would have had the hardest time telling you. Because I I went to a meet up in Austin, a Dribbble meet up, and a guy there, he we we hadn't met before. He asked me what I do and I I said, well, how much time do you have? And he's like, I'm at a meetup.
Speaker 3:You know, I can take as long as you want. And he points to a a seat nearby, so we sat down. And I took about twenty minutes to kinda tell him my story. And Mhmm. He's like, well, sounds like a great story.
Speaker 3:And I said, okay. Here's my problem.
Speaker 2:So much for the elevator pitch.
Speaker 3:Right? Exactly. I didn't have that at all. I was like, every time someone says, so what do you do? I'm like, oh, man.
Speaker 3:This is not good. So I said, now, if someone came up to you and said, alright. You just talked to this Sean guy. What does he do? How would you describe it?
Speaker 3:And he goes, well, it sounds like you've had success in client work and selling products and teaching, and now you wanna help other people do those things. And I was like, wow. That's that's the best thing I've ever heard. I had no way of explaining it before now, but pretty much it's that. It's I've I've taught myself business by building businesses.
Speaker 3:So I started my first business about eight or nine years ago kind of along the theme of your podcast, learn by doing. I just I love that. That's that's exactly how it was for me. I I ran a number of different businesses in in three different industries. And along the way, had success with client work, like charging really good rates, working with big names that everybody knows, as well as, building a physical product business that continues to sell numerous products every single day passively.
Speaker 3:And I'm not I'm not even putting any marketing into that. I'm not even focusing on that. But, you know, finally, that kind of the the more recent thing that people are starting to kind of hear about is the teaching. So I had my learn lettering course because lettering is is kind of my passion. Know, I love to do custom lettering and things like that.
Speaker 3:And and so I made these courses, which I think you you've probably got a couple of questions on that, so we'll probably get to that in a bit.
Speaker 2:But Mhmm.
Speaker 3:That was my most recent thing. I also have a membership based entrepreneurial community as well as podcast, which is kind of exploding right now, and a book that I'm writing on the side. So that's kind of everything that I'm doing.
Speaker 1:That's it?
Speaker 2:That's all you got? Come on.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's it.
Speaker 2:You know, actually, I I got a question for Jordan right now because, Jordan, I think I think you kinda just just met Sean, and and about a week ago, I sent you some of his links as, you know, we're preparing for this podcast. And I think it's interesting figuring out how other people define you or, like, the brand that comes across. And and, yeah, I you know, back in a few years ago, I considered you as, like, a web designer, and more recently, the first thing that comes to mind is your lettering work. But, I mean, Jordan, as you kinda browse his site and and I introduced you to some of his stuff, I mean, what kinda stuck out to you the most? Like, how would you kinda, like, brand somebody like Sean who's really all over the place?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I think what the story Sean told about the meetup is really interesting because a lot of times as a business or a company or as an individual, we give out certain marketing messages that we think represent us or what we want people to know us for. And there's often a big difference between the marketing messages that we put out and what people actually interpret. So, you look at a giant feature page of a product, people notice certain things that the company probably doesn't realize are the things that are convincing them to buy. And so Sean's story is kind of perfect in the difference between what we think internally and what people see on the outside and how they talk about it, how they think about it.
Speaker 1:And I think the closer you can bring those two together, the more success you have connecting with your marketing. So with that said, when I looked at Sean's stuff, I saw like a passion play, I guess I would call it as a business approach where I like doing this, I love doing this, this lettering and design. And I like it so much that I got really good at it. And because I got good at it, people started noticing and then they started saying, Hey, I wanna learn that too. And then it almost felt like a business by mistake.
Speaker 1:It's just like, Oh, now I it just makes sense. It's so obvious in front of you. So it looked to me like Sean didn't go out in a more cynical approach that I generally take to business. He kinda just did what he loves doing and the things that came out of it just presented themselves as very obvious choices.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, you know, actually, that's a good segue into kinda like my first question here for you, Sean. I mean, it's it's really all about pursuing your passion. And I think that's one of these things, you know, all of us here in this, like, startup bubble of, like, you gotta find an idea. You've gotta target a pain and a challenge and and present a solution and validate that and all and all this stuff.
Speaker 2:But what about just pursuing something that you're passionate about and then turning that into a self sustaining business? I mean, it seems like you've you've kind of flipped that conventional wisdom on its head. I mean, you know, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So conventional wisdom, especially in this space, says don't just build what you want. You have to build what people need. Right? Find a pain point and address it with your product.
Speaker 3:And there's nothing inaccurate about this. But just to share my story, I started doing lettering just for the pure passion of it. Know, I had a web firm that I was doing about eight or ten hours a day, and I met another designer who encouraged me to go after the lettering stuff because he he did some lettering and I was like, I've always liked doing that. I didn't even know the word typography existed in middle school but I was doing letters, drawing letters, you know, while all of my friends were maybe illustrating or painting. I thought it was kinda weird until I I got on the Internet and realized, oh, this is actually a thing, you know.
Speaker 3:And this, this other designer, his name is Kyle Steed, he said, yeah, man. Just just go after the lettering stuff. Just start doing it. So I took his advice and I I started creating lettering. And that was outside of my day job, you know, in the nights and weekends.
Speaker 3:I was just creating lettering and I was doing this for a couple years. And I think that's kind of the part that people miss because everyone wants to create a product and make a bunch of money just like all the stories that they read. I was just creating lettering and posting it online for for two or three years, you know, just for fun. And gradually I mean, it's very very slow growth, but gradually, people started noticing because I was kind of, you know, like pro prolific with my output. I was really putting out a lot really regularly.
Speaker 3:People were liking my work and they were saying, hey. Do you have prints? Can we get this stuff on t shirts? And so I I started doing that. You know, I I started doing client work.
Speaker 3:I saved up the money from client work and invested that in some larger product runs because I didn't need the money to pay bills. I already had my my day job, the web firm. And, you know, I did that actually just
Speaker 2:gonna wanna stop real quick right there because I I mean, first of all, I was probably one of those people on Twitter who was asking for a print that I could buy. Because for so long, you were just posting this up to Dribbble, there was, like, nothing that I can buy. You know? But Interesting. The you know, you say that you were prolific putting out lots and lots of work.
Speaker 2:But I think the thing to really be clear about here is that, yeah, you were putting out lots of work, but it was all hand lettering. It was all basically one thing. I mean, different variations and whatnot, but it wasn't like, you know, hand lettering one day and like a custom craft thing the other day or a painting the next day. It was
Speaker 3:Well well, to interject there, just just to kind of define the really big inflection point in my exposure online, I was doing that. I was posting random stuff because I'm working at the day job. I'm doing branding. I'm doing interface design. I'm doing illustration, icon design, all of this stuff.
Speaker 3:And I was posting that stuff. So places like Dribbble and Twitter, I was just posting whatever I worked on. It was just this big random montage, you know? And then once I started really curating what I was putting out and just doing lettering, people were like, oh, this is a lettering guy. Like, they started to be able to kinda get me.
Speaker 3:And it wasn't even that I was at that time when I started curating, it wasn't that I got better then. It was just I was only putting that out and people could start to kind of process that. I I always say people can't process your awesomeness. You have to kind of curate it for them so they can say, okay. This guy is a blank guy.
Speaker 3:Because people wanna put you in a box. They're already gonna put you in a box. You might as well define that box for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's a great point.
Speaker 1:Yeah. They they have to. There's there's too much out there. But, yeah, I think that's a that's a great way to look at it in terms of maybe you're good at a lot of things but if you want to get noticed and if you want to get some traction then help people on one particular thing and be known for that. It's the same thing as any business trying to cater to everyone as opposed to a very specific niche.
Speaker 1:This is just more of a personality and output and creativity. So that's interesting. So Sean, when you started focusing on just the lettering, you started getting attention and what what happened in that inflection point? What what changed?
Speaker 3:Well, that's when I started making more products. So people were buying products with my work. I continued to put out more work. And as well as that was going, I mean, people were buying products at that point probably almost every day. Now it's multiple products a day, but at that time it was close to every day.
Speaker 3:It was doing really well, almost to the point where it could pay bills. But what I wasn't really realizing at that time is as well as the products were doing, The vast majority of my audience wanted to learn how to do what I did and I wasn't capitalizing on that at all. And so I'm getting five emails a day on average of people saying, Hey, how do I get started with lettering? How do I do this thing? Where where do I begin?
Speaker 3:What tools do I use? How do you find the right way to draw stuff? How do you come up with your compositions and all of that? So just in response to this, I'm like, I can't keep responding personally to five emails a day. I wrote a guide, a a 10 step introductory lettering guide, and I just put it on my website, just a a WordPress page.
Speaker 3:You know, it had a bunch of steps with images and everything. And in less than a year, it was read by over 200,000 people. So I was like, okay. There there's clearly interest here.
Speaker 1:No opt in. No give me your email. I'll give it to you. Really just put it out there.
Speaker 3:Just right there. I didn't I I didn't even know anything about email marketing. This was just a couple years back.
Speaker 2:Right. Amazing. I mean, was it even like SEO optima I mean, I guess you you come from you're a web designer, so you I'm sure it had the basic standard optimization. Right? But but I think it was really your work that that attracted the masses and the and the eyeballs.
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 3:I think so. Like, the the the SEO is kind of inherent in WordPress. WordPress is great for SEO. I mean, I I did a little bit of work on it, but mostly the fact that it wasn't this opt in thing to get your free download is just a page, it caused a bunch of people to link to that page, which Google absolutely loved. So you search anything related to hand lettering and there I am right there.
Speaker 3:You know? So kind of coming back to this question of the the conventional wisdom, you know, making something for people's pain points versus starting with your passion. Again, I don't think there's anything inaccurate with it. The issue I see is if you're starting with the money. Where's the money at?
Speaker 3:If you start with the money, then you let it dictate what you do with your life. So if for instance, if money's in real estate and you wanna make a product in real estate, sure, you can make that work. But if you really wanna be successful at it long term, you're gonna need to immerse yourself in this world. You're gonna need to immerse yourself in the problems that these people have. You have to fall in love with the problem, not your solution to the problem.
Speaker 3:And if you're not in love with the problem, it it's just it's not gonna work. You know? The the people it's not just it's not just the problem you have to fall in love with, but intrinsically, you need to fall in love with the people who have that problem. And if you're not passionate about those people, then you're gonna burn out. And so my my my thing is kind of a nuanced approach.
Speaker 3:You gotta find something you're passionate about and start there. Start creating. Start writing. Start blogging, podcasting, sending out newsletters, making videos, creating tutorials. Gil give all of this away for free.
Speaker 3:Stop trying to make money from this. Just give it away. You wanna establish yourself as the authority in this place. And and this is where a lot of people think, I can't do that. I can't afford to do that because I I need to make money.
Speaker 3:Right? I can't just give this stuff away and establish myself. And that's what I I call that scarcity mindset. It's it's the the problem of people start out with what they're passionate about and then they try and monetize too quickly. It's that, you know, scarcity mindset's like, I gotta make bills.
Speaker 3:I I don't know where my next project's gonna come from. I don't know where the money's coming coming from, so I gotta take whatever I can get. And I just think that's that's terrible. It's the fastest way to kill the fervor you have for what you wanna do.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, you know, well said. The the thing that I'd that I'd actually like to ask you right now is, you know, because on your podcast, you've you've gone through the the whole process of of the launch and how the launch went and and the aftermath. And we will get into some of that right now. And you've been on other podcasts.
Speaker 2:We will link we'll link up a few of your shows. There's a really great interview with you from Nathan Barry that we'll link up here. But, you know, one thing that I was kind of wondering, you know, after listening to some of this stuff was, like, how how did that transition happen from you're you're doing this lettering, you're selling some t shirts and prints and whatnot, and you have the store. And and for a while there, I mean, I've been following you for a while, and it and it seemed like that was the obvious thing. Like, great hand letter.
Speaker 2:Obviously, we need a store to to sell products. But then that transition into, hey, I should teach this. You put out the tutorial. There's some incredible interest and and feedback on that. Long term, like, were were you all of a sudden, like, you know what?
Speaker 2:I'm actually gonna dedicate the rest of this year to pivoting into teaching. And, like, what did that transition look like? What else was going on in your life at the time, in your business at the time? Like, how did that transition happen? Because it seemed like it it happened pretty quickly, and then you executed, you know, relatively quickly.
Speaker 3:So 2012, this is a couple years back, we hibernated the web firm. So my partner got another job and we decided to kinda just put that down. And at the time, I had a bunch of requests for jobs, lettering related, that I wasn't taking on because I was just busy. So what I was able to do was ramp up the lettering business then and start taking on more client work. And there was there was tons of work.
Speaker 3:There was just really high demand because at that point, I've been doing it for like two or three years, I think. So there's just a lot of work and I took on a bunch of it. I got some kind of big name clients and some nice 5 figure budgets, and I just worked really hard and saved up a bunch of money. So I was kind of getting to the point where I was burnt out on doing work for other people. And, you know, even even I was doubling my rates I I doubled my rates four times over over the course of, half a year and people weren't even blinking, you know.
Speaker 3:And and still, I was like, man, the money the money still isn't motivating me enough to do work for other people. I kinda wanna just do my own thing. So I I saved up money from client work and I I phased out of that kinda in the towards the beginning of 2013. And I I started working on preparing for the courses. And for some reason, I decided to start a twice a week podcast.
Speaker 3:That was a kinda crazy idea. But what I did was the actually, the first thing that I taught was a course on Skillshare. And it was just the digitizing part of lettering. So how to digitize your stuff, how to make deliverables that you can work with manufacturers and make your own products. That did really well.
Speaker 3:I think it has, like, 2,000 students on it. And so it's like, alright. This is this is working. That was kind of my way to get my feet wet with teaching. And I had I had some kind of weird stuff happen with Skillshare.
Speaker 3:I was like, don't think this is the best place for me to do my courses. And I'm also really big on building your own platform. So like, I wanna have everything in my place. You know, my my domain, my website, I can control everything. I don't have to worry about cuts.
Speaker 3:I don't have to worry about experience or people. Like, they would automatically send out discounts. You know, it it's not anything you can control. And so I decided, alright. I'm gonna start doing this on my own site.
Speaker 3:And, basically, what I ended up making was about 10 times the size of that one Skillshare class.
Speaker 2:Right. And and so I I guess, like, real briefly, again, you you go into really great detail, you know, on your own podcast. We'll link that up. But maybe, like, what's kind of the the summary of how the launch went? You know, like, revenue wise and list size and, like, what were, like, the bang bang the steps that led up to it?
Speaker 3:So I did what I call backwards building with this product. And it's it's the idea that you sell the final product before you build it. So by that, I mean, you kinda put yourself in the mindset of, okay, this is done. I have the product created and it you know, it's still this idea in your head, but you're imagining that it's totally done and you need to market this to your potential audience, to your potential customer. And what that does is it forces you to think about the value proposition you're creating.
Speaker 3:You have to think of how you're going to sell this and what pain point it addresses, what problem it solves for your customers. So instead of thinking how it benefits you, you're thinking how does this benefit the end user and what do they what do they need. So it it does two things. It it's selling the idea before you actually have it, which allows you to capture interest. You're putting up a landing page and you're giving an overview of what you're gonna be offering, which is what I did.
Speaker 3:I did a huge 6,000 pixel tall page that went into detail. It was like, this is exactly what it is. And again, this is before I made it. So I'm kind of describing it before I have it. And this kind of sets up this is the second thing it does for you.
Speaker 3:So first, it allows you to capture interest. But secondly, it sets an end goal of where you need to end up. So instead of saying, I kinda wanna make this thing follow along. I don't know what it's gonna be. And then it ends up being something subjective about what you just wanna make.
Speaker 3:You've already said this is what it's gonna be, so it has to be that. And now it's just a matter of kind of
Speaker 2:blazing the path to that. So And did you in that mock up, I remember I remember looking at that mock up early on and it, you know, looked fantastic. Look looks like a a almost like a finished product, but it's obviously not created yet. Did you did you show the pricing on that? Or, like, before the launch, did did you indicate what the price point was or was or that there even was a price on this?
Speaker 3:I did not.
Speaker 1:You just said it. So it's it's interesting that you you knew what to write on that page though. Right? So that that came from the previous experience on having a good feel for what people want to learn from you. And then I love the the pressure it puts, right?
Speaker 1:It puts you in a situation where you've gone out in public and said you're doing something and you've been detailed about it. So you kind of put yourself into a box. You don't have that much wiggle room. It forces you to perform under pressure. And then I think I think I listened to a previous podcast on how much work you did in a short period of time and, you know, I don't know myself.
Speaker 1:I don't have the discipline to do that without that type of external pressure.
Speaker 2:You're putting in something like twenty hour days for three weeks there or something like that?
Speaker 3:It was two hundred thirty nine hours and thirteen days.
Speaker 2:Oh my god. That's insane.
Speaker 3:I'm not advocating it. I'm just saying that's what it was.
Speaker 2:But you but you basically met you met the launch date. Right? Like, you didn't
Speaker 3:I did. I I met the launch date and and Jordan was right about, kinda doing the research, knowing what people are asking for. That definitely helped me write this kind of sales page and put that up there. And it's also worth mentioning that the original guide that I put up, I replaced that with this page. So I turned that guide that was there into a PDF and said, here, get the guide that's been downloaded by 200,000 people.
Speaker 3:So that opt in converted really, really well. I mean, before I had the guide, I think I was getting 20 or 30 sign ups a day from that page. And after I put the new overview page with the guide then behind the opt in with the social proof, I was getting 65 a day. And then the next month, 70. The next month, 90.
Speaker 3:Next month, it was averaging 105 subscribers a day. When we come up to the launch, this is a six month period from announcing to building up interest, working on the product, all the way to launch. That's a six month period. I had a list of 15,000 people.
Speaker 1:Wow. Healthy. So something that I always wonder about and I debate with Brian about, the people that came in and opted in and ultimately ended up buying the course or at least becoming part of your audience, Are these people that knew you ahead of time, these 15,000 people? Or do you think a lot of them were total strangers that came along in that six month period? Because we debate a lot about whether an audience is a requirement or it's just a great thing to have.
Speaker 1:But if someone will buy just based on the product alone and getting to know you just through the product, the launch, that piece of it, as opposed to knowing you ahead of time for the past year or two and respecting you, and then they buy because of that. Something in me tells me that if you had written 10 words on that sales page, you still would have gotten sales because of people that knew you, but new people coming in wouldn't have bought it. So in that six month period, those 15,000 people, do you have any sense of which of those were total strangers that that came in organically and then opted in and went through the whole process?
Speaker 3:I don't have a scientific breakdown. I'm gonna go ahead and guess that it's about 25 to 30%. And you can let me know what you think about this, but I'm kind of basing it off of my extremely diverse traffic sources. So if you look at my traffic sources, it's just immensely diverse. I mean, it's just broken up as evenly as it can be.
Speaker 3:If any one thing goes away, it's it's very, very solid. You know, organic search engine stuff from keywords, direct, referrals, email, all of this stuff. It's like an even split. So very, very solid. But what you're saying is a is a good point.
Speaker 3:I do have fairly considerable followings in the five figures on various social networks. So I'm sure a lot of those people that are coming to the site are are a part of the audience that converts really well. But, you know, like I said, in in even percentages coming straight from search.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I was I was gonna say, I think your lettering work, which dates back, you know, a year or two, three years before you got into the tutorial and then the launch of the course was huge on Dribbble and Instagram. Right?
Speaker 3:Yes. That's true.
Speaker 2:I I would think that but again, I mean, you know, still, I'm I'm sure a lot of that a large chunk of of that 15,000 email list came during that six months, but they probably came through those channel through through those channels, like, seeing your later work and then, like, oh my god. Look at all this work that dates back. Yeah. Awesome. You know, actually, have a question because in in the last episode, last week's episode, Jordan and I were talking about info the whole episode was about info products.
Speaker 2:Right? And just like any other products, like you talked about, as you're writing the sales page, it's all about connecting with a specific need, pain point, problem, challenge, whatever you wanna call it, and presenting a solution. But when it comes to something like this, lettering, hand lettering, this is this is a very creative kind of a kind of a craft type of thing that, you know, an education around something like that. How do you connect with like, what is the the specific need there? Is it just an interest, or is it a a business need?
Speaker 2:Like, I want to sell lettering work, or, you know, what what was the the thing that really resonated as as you were writing that sales page?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So lettering is kind of experiencing a resurgence. People you know, as things get more digital, people wanna hearken back to the handmade and to the the organic feel of stuff so they can be reminded that there's a human behind whatever this message is. So clients want it more now, and a lot of people are are wanting to make products with it as well. So it's kind of it's it's in a boom right now.
Speaker 3:It's experiencing a resurgence. So it's really good timing. I think that the main thing is I'm not saying here's the technical aspects of how to draw letters the right way and the terms to use in your contracts. I'm saying make a living as a hand lettering artist. That's the value proposition because that's really what people want.
Speaker 3:They wanna do lettering. They see these other people that they follow that are successful. They're doing this full time and they want that. And I kind of I'm hitting what they need and what they're looking for, but I'm also kind of bringing in something else that they didn't think about. And that's my experience.
Speaker 3:So my background is in business. And that's something that I have that a lot of other artists don't have. So I have the technical skills. My work gets a lot of appreciation, but I also have the business knowledge to back it up. So I'm kind of merging those together and and kind of filling in the gaps.
Speaker 1:And and you teach that as as part of the content in the course? So what what's the split? Is it fifty fifty creative and and business? Or is it
Speaker 3:I would say seventy five twenty five is probably probably the split. So I'm I'm showing them the the questions that I ask in my questionnaire, the exact emails that I'm sending to clients, how to negotiate rates. I'm breaking down design contracts, licensing. So for instance, licensing, I was getting requests from people who wanted to use my work on products and resell it. I didn't even know anything about this.
Speaker 3:So I start researching, reading blogs, buying books, watching videos, learning about licensing. And one of the best books that I got was from 1995 where they're talking about CDs in the World Wide Web. But the principles in it were really great. So I I just I applied myself to translating that information and basically crafting this custom licensing agreement and then teaching a course on it. So all of that is inside.
Speaker 1:So that's the 75%?
Speaker 3:No. No. That's the smaller amount. It's it's it's more heavily on lettering versus business, but it's enough business for people to kinda make a living and work with clients.
Speaker 1:Okay. So that's it's incredibly interesting because the the debate Brian and I have is, you know, what makes people buy info products of this type? And my argument, partly from personal experience, is that people buy often when they wanna be more like the person they're buying from, right? So you have some business success and the talent and the creative side of it. And I think a lot of the natural draw toward a product put out by someone like that is that you wanna be more like them.
Speaker 1:You want your life to be more like them. You can imagine yourself doing lettering as a full time profession and making money from it and right. So it's that as much as the I wanna learn how to do lettering. It's also like, I trust this person. I wanna be more like this person so that that draws you further in.
Speaker 2:Right. I mean, I I agree with that, but it's it's also it I mean, that that basically describes the the common theme that we see here is, like, you do something, you have a proven track record of success, now I'm gonna teach that. Right? So I I think we see that again and again when it comes to info products. But, you know, speaking of of the business side of things, getting back to the launch, I thought it was interesting how you went about your approach with pricing and packages.
Speaker 2:And I know you you've talked a lot about this, you know, on Nathan Barry's podcast and and on yours. Can you, you know, like, briefly describe, like, how did you break out your pricing? Some strategies on how you priced, but then also how did you present that to the list during that prelaunch lead up?
Speaker 3:Perfect. Okay. So I had mentioned that originally I taught a class on Skillshare. So that was my first teaching experience, and my mindset was kind of shaped by it. So I wanted to I wanted to put out 10 courses that were like that one course.
Speaker 3:So it's just like a bunch of courses, and in my mind, it's like these it's just a bunch of piecemeal options. If you wanna learn about licensing, here, buy this course individually. You wanna learn about digitizing, here you go. And I kinda had this broken apart thing and I thought, well, you know, I'll package it all together and say if you buy all of them, you save a little bit of money. And I thought that was good.
Speaker 3:Well, I had been following you mentioned Nathan Barry. Believe it or not, fun fact, I actually discovered Nathan Barry on your podcast. That's where I first got Oh,
Speaker 2:very cool.
Speaker 3:I didn't know that. Yeah. So I started following him, bought his book Authority, learned a lot from him. And I get my daily Mailchimp update, like, here's people that have subscribed to your list. It says, a 107 people subscribed to your list yesterday.
Speaker 3:Here's five of them. One of them is Nathan Barry. I'm like, what is going on here? Is he kinda like looking into how how his followers are doing stuff? You know?
Speaker 3:And I reached out to him. I said, hey. This is a long overdue thanks, but I feel like it you know, I just wanna say your material has been super helpful. I noticed you signed up for the list. Just wanna hear how you found out about that.
Speaker 3:And apparently, it was from one of my shots on Dribbble being on the front page. He comes to the page and he he said he thought, this is exactly how I would do this. And so he just signed up to kinda see how it went. But I I kinda
Speaker 2:started following some of his methods and his training, right, when it comes to launching a a product?
Speaker 3:Yes. I was. And so I reached out and said, you know, here's here's my oh, no. You know, this is actually it's a small detail, but I feel like it's important. He he asked me after I reached out what my launch plan was.
Speaker 3:So in response to his question, I told him and then he gave me some advice and said, I think you should break it up into packages, which a lot of people know Nathan is really big on packages. And he said, You should have a master class, an intermediate class, and a starter class. And that made a really big difference because he said, You know, it doesn't matter if there's no particular order that people actually need to go through this. People want to be told in order that they should go through this. And that was really big.
Speaker 3:And so the fact that I waited kind of till the very end, the home stretch to make this, was really actually good because I was able to kind of apply that not just in my packaging, but how I actually structured and made the course. So I made the course in a way that was like, this is course one that goes into course two. And I'm I'm referencing previous and next courses like that. So it's very, you know, interlocked like that.
Speaker 2:Very cool. And, you know, I I think the thing that really stuck out to me, I kind of only made made this connection, like, last week when I was looking at the site. Most of the time when you see these info products or really any product for that matter, you see three tiers typically. And all three tiers basically contain, like, the core of the product, and then the upper tier kind of includes just a a couple of extras. Right?
Speaker 2:And as I was looking at the pricing of my book last year, that's essentially what happened. I mean, I had three tiers. All three tiers included the whole book. The upper two tiers just included like a few extra video interviews and and some templates and whatnot. And I think I think that's the the common approach to it, but what I noticed on yours was like, the lower tier is what, like, one lesson, like, one course.
Speaker 2:The middle tier is like three courses, and the upper tier is like twenty, twenty five courses. So it's like, if you wanna learn all of the material, you're encouraged to get to the top the top tier package.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So along those lines, what I actually could have done or should have done is upsold even further. So the act if you think about it, the actual product is the top tier. Right. That doesn't include any extras.
Speaker 3:What if someone wants one on one time? What if they want a portfolio review? What if they want etcetera. Right? I could have easily upsold because I think when I launched, it was around 85% because I had a discount in there.
Speaker 3:And we didn't actually talk about the actual launch numbers. Maybe we were getting to that. But when I launched, 85% of people bought the top tier package.
Speaker 2:So 5% to
Speaker 3:Of the people that bought on launch day bought the top tier. So of course, some of those people would have paid more. Of course, would have got a bigger product, know.
Speaker 2:Well, let's kind of relieve some of the suspense for those of you who haven't who don't know the stories. Let's hear the revenue numbers here on on the launch.
Speaker 3:Okay. So how I tend to tell it is how I experienced it. So I didn't know exactly what was gonna happen. I just launched within the first thirty minutes, $10,000 in revenue. Within the first an hour and a half, 20,000.
Speaker 3:Within the first three hours, 30,000. Five hours, 40,000. All said and done, over $80,000 in the first twenty four hours and figures in the first three days.
Speaker 2:That's unbelievable.
Speaker 3:It's it's pretty incredible.
Speaker 1:Right. Amazing. And and that was to a list of 15,000 and you had you had given them some warning ahead of time on, you know, that this was coming out and this is the big day and did you give any any urgency to purchasing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so another thing I should have done better, the launch sequence was about four or five emails and that was only a week before. So I've been preparing for six months, I should have been emailing these people all throughout. I'm basically emailing a cold list in a lot of the cases for the subscribers. But I was so caught up on, no, when I email them, it has to be super valuable. I don't want to bug 15,000 people with nothing super important.
Speaker 3:I want to give them like a free video or something. And of course, I was waiting till the end to produce the videos, so I didn't have anything to send. If I had done it over, I would have been just having conversations with them, you know, like letting letting their input shape the product, answering questions, sharing stuff. But it it still worked out, obviously. The in the final week, sent five emails.
Speaker 3:So, you know, a lot of people are like, oh, you can't send more than one a week. Or people will say, oh, spam. I sent five emails. And no one's complaining because it's stuff that they want. So I I said, here's everything that's in it.
Speaker 3:All 10 courses broken down into all 50 lessons with run time, everything you can imagine. I told them the price. I told them what it was going to be. I gave them two free video lessons so they can see exactly what's inside. And I I also showed them what it was gonna cost and I said, you're gonna get a discount on the launch day.
Speaker 3:So first twenty four hours, here you go.
Speaker 2:Amazing. So okay. So that that was launch and that was a couple of months ago now. Right? Yes.
Speaker 2:So where are things going post launch?
Speaker 1:Yeah. You you keep talking about things in the past tense, like you should have added certain things to the top tier to make, you know, higher price point with more value. But why, you know, why are you referring to it in the past tense as opposed to making changes now? Are you is it even available right now to buy?
Speaker 3:That's a fair point. Yeah. I didn't do the whole close down the launch thing. It's available. It continues to sell.
Speaker 3:So the the first launch period, 6 figures in three days, that was towards the end of a month. So clear that out of the way. Now we're talking about the next month. The next month, $30. The next month, $20.
Speaker 3:The next month, $18. However, on that particular month which I believe was the June, I decided to raise the price because people were actually emailing me saying they would pay more. They were just offering that information. Like, this is crazy. Think about this in terms of college courses and what you'd pay.
Speaker 3:Someone broke it down into like credits and hours and stuff. And they said, you're basically charging $17 per credit hour and it would really be 76 at a community college. They're like, you should be charging way more. So I upped the price by
Speaker 1:What is that price point?
Speaker 3:It was $2.49
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:Which I discounted to $1.99 at the launch.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:So 20 percent discount. Then it continued to sell at $2.49 for those few months, and then I upped it to $2.99. So what that gave me was another excuse to email the list, create urgency. And that that ramp up, that little secondary launch generated another $25,000 in revenue in twenty four hours.
Speaker 2:Wow. So I mean, what were the activities that you took post launch? You know, in in the second month, in the third month? Aside from changing the the price, were there any kind of new marketing activities, a new marketing funnel, like, a more free content? Like, how how do you keep this turning?
Speaker 2:Because going from, what, a $90,000 launch down to 30,000 in the second month, 20,000, I mean, that's typically, info products have a have a much steeper drop off than that. Right? So like that's sustaining pretty pretty damn well.
Speaker 3:It harkens back to the diversity of my traffic sources. Right. So it's a very small I mean, it's it's just one section that's email marketing. Everything else I mean, remember before I launched, a 100 subscribers a day? Those aren't the people that are on the list.
Speaker 3:Those are brand new people discovering this every single day. So instead of converting as an email subscriber, they're converting as a customer. So I think that's why it continued to sell really well. But something that I implemented after after three months of launching was an autoresponder series. So just like I did a launch sequence before the the primary launch, I created a similar launch sequence, if you will, that was an autoresponder.
Speaker 3:So it says, hey, are you still deciding? Get two free video lessons and my introductory lettering guide for free. And I send like a four or five part launch that's like, alright. Here it is.
Speaker 2:Wow. Awesome.
Speaker 1:And then and then from there, it's the option to to buy the full the full product because what, you know, what some people do is offer a very low priced tripwire offer. Have you considered something like that where upfront after someone signs up, if they don't either offering the tripwire for a lower price, like one lesson or one chapter or one part of the course, or if they don't take the initial offer for the full product, then offering them the lower price and then reoffering the the full product. Have you considered including that that piece of it?
Speaker 3:I haven't ever done that actually. I haven't thought about it. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:You right. What it does is it separates people who are willing to pay even even $10 for something are much more likely to pay a higher price for something after they've already paid and seen how good the actual paid content is. And so, yeah, what people do is they segment their lists in two. So someone comes in, they opt in, right after they opt in, they see something low priced and those people are much more likely to end up buying the full product. Something interesting because you're I mean, you're a dangerous man right now with with that much traffic coming in from different places, you know, launches play a role, but they're not your whole business.
Speaker 2:You know, it's interesting hearing Jordan, you know, kind of analyze this, talking, like, numbers and optimizing sales and and all this. And and, Sean, I mean, you know, I know you you kinda come from, like, the the creative standpoint and and all of this. And it it's just kind of interesting how how two different perspectives approach this launch. And I guess what where I'm trying to get to here is, you know, this idea of I I guess I I wanna say, like, perfectionism. Right?
Speaker 2:Like, constantly, like, tweaking. And I know for for a designer, I'm I'm sure you can relate to this. I was talking to you know, I I just talk to people about this all the time. Like, as a designer, it's so easy to just kinda keep tweaking and pushing pixels and rewriting a sales page or even as a marketer, like, you know, AB testing, you know, over testing? I mean, how do you kinda balance that with with just shipping and meeting a launch date and making a plan?
Speaker 2:And, you know, what is your approach to that kinda thing?
Speaker 3:That's super difficult because I'm a self ascribed chronic perfectionist. So left to my natural inclinations, I'm gonna work on something forever and it's never gonna be done. It's never gonna ship. And I think that's because refinement is never ending. And knowing when to call something good or good enough is the bane of all perfectionists.
Speaker 3:So it's super difficult. And just out of pure survival, I had to come up with a system. And it's just a very simple system. For me, the cure to perfectionism is a two digit number, 90%. That's it.
Speaker 3:My job is 90% of what my perfectionist mindset would call perfect. And I know that because my standards are so high, as a perfectionist, they're unrealistically high. So 90% perfect to me is better than most other perfects out there. So telling myself 90% is my job. It gives me permission to call something good, and it gives me the the freedom to ship.
Speaker 2:That that's a great way to put it, you know. And and I think a lot of people would look at at the work of someone like you or, you know, anyone who who has a kind of a a heavy design sensibility and and think, oh, you make it look so easy. Or, you know, anything that you touch is just always gonna come out with with that shiny level of quality to it. But I think, really, behind the scenes, you're spending hours upon hours redoing, refining, tweaking, and it also goes back years of of doing that over and over again. Right?
Speaker 2:I I think that's what most people don't don't see in all of this.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Like, this does this interview to the listener, does this interview sound really informational and well put together? It's because I prepared for it. I made an outline of stuff that I made sure that I wanted to hit on. I wanted to help people with.
Speaker 3:And I do the same with my own podcast. It's like, I'm not gonna waste people's time. I'm gonna make sure that I'm preparing. And if I'm gonna say something, it's gonna be worth saying. If I'm gonna do something, then it's gonna be worth doing and it's it's gonna be be done well.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And and again, like, getting back to this, like, startup bubble, you know, culture that we that we're all a part of, it's everything is just, you know, just ship. Just ship. Just just throw it out there and test it and and get data back and see what works and Lean.
Speaker 3:Lean. Lean.
Speaker 2:Right? Yeah. Lean every you know? But there is a value to, you know, to just spending the time and building something with integrity. And that doesn't mean going ahead and and building a whole software product or or recording an entire course before you know that there's actual demand for it.
Speaker 2:But, you know
Speaker 3:This is a great reason to this is why I encourage people, put stuff out for free. Like, you think you wanna make a product? You think you wanna sell something? Put, like, at least half of that out on the web for free. And you don't need to be scared that, like, oh, no.
Speaker 3:Then I can't sell a product. No. The more you teach, the more you write, the more you're gonna find that you have to say. And the more value you're going to be able to provide. And the better your free stuff is, the more people are going to assume that your paid stuff is really good.
Speaker 3:And they're not going to pay for stuff from you unless they see you as an authority. And you have to build that credibility up. Just start putting stuff out there. You know, you wanna you wanna figure out what people want, put stuff out for free, and see what they say. Ask them questions.
Speaker 3:Listen.
Speaker 1:And there's less pressure on being perfect when it's free.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's very true.
Speaker 2:That that is that is true. So, you know, I I wanna kind of, you know, respect your time here. I do wanna touch on your the book that you're working on. I guess that's kind of your current project. Right?
Speaker 2:So you've you've completed this learn lettering course and now your next big thing is this book called, The Overlap Technique. Can you, can you tell us about it?
Speaker 3:Yes. So The Overlap Technique is a calculated guide to making a living from your passion. And I know we've all heard the do what you love phrase. I'm I'm skipping over all of the cliches. So in my book, The Overlap Technique, you're gonna find down to earth practicalities that break down everything that's required step by steps.
Speaker 3:So, like, the mindset stuff, you know, dealing with lack of motivation, fear of failure, but also very practical steps like, how do I actually make a living from this thing?
Speaker 2:And so, I mean, what what do you mean by overlap technique?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Can you give us like a like a blueprint look
Speaker 3:at Sure.
Speaker 1:At at what someone's path is from from deciding that they wanna do it to to getting there.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So my my thing is you gotta guard the sacredness of your passion because we all know someone who's quit their day job and pursued what they're passionate about and then they end up hating it. They end up burning out and they they usually blame stuff like, oh, it's you know, I never got good clients, I had terrible clients, or never got my lucky break. But really, it's it's because they compromised on things like their process or or their professionalism or their morality or their values because they're just trying to make money. And so I think in order to guard that, you have to have a stable platform of a day job that's covering your bills.
Speaker 3:So you get out of that scarcity mindset. Your bills are covered. Now just pursue this thing for the sake of the passion. Stop trying to make money from it. Stop trying to immediately monetize it but grow it.
Speaker 3:You know, really pour yourself into it because you love to do it. And I think people will start to see that. And and from there, opens up a myriad of ways to be able to actually make money and and support yourself.
Speaker 1:So it's the patient long term approach to don't try to sell right away. You're you're gonna figure out a lot of things along the way. But if you start off with something that you're interested in and start giving it away for free, you'll put yourself in a position in the future, to be able to really know what people want and what you're known for and why. And then, I mean I mean, it's following the same path that that that you went on over the past few years.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's it's what worked for me and it's kinda just for the person who they want more than the do what you love phrase. They wanna know the how. They want the practical steps. How do I find what I'm passionate about?
Speaker 3:I I have too many things I wanna do. How do I narrow that down? How do I build a portfolio? How do I grow my audience? How do I manage my time and actually get things done?
Speaker 3:How can I make money without hating this thing and thinking of it like a job?
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, I think that's a really interesting way of looking at it, you know. In the beginning, having a job to cut make sure your bills are covered and then put all of your energy into your your passion and put it out for free. Because so many people dedicate all that energy toward how can I make money from this, you know? And yes, I I love to do it, but how how can I make money from it?
Speaker 2:And that's where they're gonna throw all their creative energy and kinda fall flat. But what you're saying is that will come later as long as you direct all that energy at putting it out into the world for free, build that audience, and then and then later monetize. And the the runway while you're building that audience, you know, make sure your bills are covered, have a job, or or, you know, do client work, whatever.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So it's what a lot of us in the industry know as relationship marketing. It's just kind of more fleshed out for someone who's new to entrepreneurship.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And who who is this for? Are you speaking to artists or designers or college students or like, who who are you writing for here?
Speaker 3:It's a good question because when I started my podcast, which is kind of along the same lines, the same theme, it was it was for designers, you know, creative people in in the design industry who are interested in business. But as as we started podcasting more and more, we're just about to record episode 100, which I'm pretty excited about. So we've got some big stuff planned. But we started getting a bunch of feedback from people saying, you know, well, I'm not I'm not a designer. I'm not a letterer.
Speaker 3:It's funny. People always say, oh, Sean has a podcast? It must be about lettering. No. I'm not describing the strokes that you draw on here.
Speaker 3:I'm talking about like business stuff. And people are saying 90% of the principles you're talking about apply to me as a teacher, as an engineer, as a whatever it is. And so I'm I'm realizing there actually is a broader audience here, but I think it's helped for my mindset thinking of a very specific target audience that an avatar, and it's just kind of kind of happens so that 90 of that can apply to everyone. So I think it is kind of a broader audience that the book has.
Speaker 2:Awesome. And you wanna tell us about the price tag on this book?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So the decision to go free. My my philosophy is give and it's gonna come back. That's the whole relationship marketing deal. The the other thing is this is my first book.
Speaker 3:So, yes, I've written a lot on my blog and newsletters and things like that, but it's it's the first book that I'm writing. So I wanna establish myself as an author. And I think by making it free, there's less of a barrier to entry and more potential for virality. So I definitely have I have several other books already planned that I I will be selling. So this just seems like a good way for me to kind of make a foray into this and also build my list too because you're gonna get it by subscribing to the list.
Speaker 3:So there is that aspect. The other thing, this is kind of the bigger picture of what I'm working on. The book is actually a primer, if you will, to what I plan to put out in 2015. It's gonna take me about a full year to create, but it's a series of business courses along the lines of what I call the trifecta. So you've got client work, products, and teaching.
Speaker 3:And all of those kinda break down in like a tree format. But those are the three pillars of being able to make a living with something that you're passionate about. And these business courses are basically gonna go really into depth. So I'm giving away the book for free and it's kinda like, here's the basics if you're just getting into this. But if you're serious, I wanna take you a lot deeper and I've I've got these courses.
Speaker 3:That's that's the big plan.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Okay. Yeah. I had I had trouble there when my my brain was melting, know, hearing some hearing someone that, you know, just made a very healthy sex figures from an info product say they're gonna you know, you're a perfectionist. You're gonna put a lot of time into this book.
Speaker 1:And then hearing that you're giving it away for free, my brain stopped for a little while and then, you know, it caught caught back up with itself. So there is a plan. Right? This sounds to me like the world's highest quality lead magnet.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah. Basically. Super super long term thinking.
Speaker 2:Right. And, you know, you're kind of practice this is so meta. Right? And I hate that term, but I'm just gonna say it anyway. You're practicing what you preach in this book.
Speaker 2:You're because as as you say, you're you haven't really established yourself as an author yet, And so you're diving head first into writing a full book for free, putting it out there into into the world and and establishing your name and credibility and a new list of followers who follow you as an author and then next year and so on, you you would, you know, continue to pursue that and monetize it.
Speaker 1:And and so what's the difference between the book and the right. Can can you say again what were the the three pieces? It was client work. What else?
Speaker 3:Client work, products, teaching.
Speaker 1:And teaching.
Speaker 3:Okay. Just for instance, teaching would break down into things like speaking, podcasting, consulting, writing blog posts, doing growing a newsletter, you know, things like that.
Speaker 1:Okay. And so
Speaker 3:So the Sorry.
Speaker 1:No. No worries. It's it's okay.
Speaker 3:The the difference between the book and the courses, the book is basically the principles. I can only go into so much depth with 40,000 words. The other stuff is the practical application.
Speaker 1:Awesome.
Speaker 2:Very cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Love it and people will get a ton of value out of the book in itself and the people who wanna get their hands all the way in into the practical piece of it, then they'll have an outlet. Yeah. I think it's a classic example of, you know, you're almost doing a disservice to people if you don't have a paid product because some people really, they need it. They need to pay and they need to get all the way in there and they need the motivation of having put money on the table and that makes them more motivated to take action.
Speaker 1:And right, I think you're just an example of someone who thinks long term and, you know, my natural inclination is to to look at the money first, but it's very hard to argue with your experience and how things have gone and just really excited to see what happens with the with this over the next over the next year.
Speaker 3:Thanks, Jordan.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, Sean, I have one final question for you before we before we leave off. I've I've just been wondering this. Your name is Sean McCabe. Why is your website Sean Wes?
Speaker 3:Not not super crazy. Wesley is my middle name, so it's just a shortened version of my middle name. And the reason is because when I when I got online, it turned out that Sean McCabe was a fairly common name on the Internet. And I was like, you know what? Instead of trying to compete, I'm just gonna make my own thing that doesn't exist and hopefully, one day make that a big deal, and then I don't have to compete with anyone on the keyword.
Speaker 2:There you go. Very cool. Alright. Yeah. Middle name.
Speaker 2:I should've should've known, obviously. Awesome. Well, Sean, you know, thank you so much for for taking the time today. And and clearly, it shows you you came prepared. So maybe we'll be introducing you as the third cohost of this show.
Speaker 3:But thank you so much, Brian. It's been a blast. I really appreciate you having me on. Very cool. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thanks for joining us, Sean.
Speaker 2:Alright. That wraps it up. That was definitely a good one. To tune in to the backlog of episodes, head on over to bootstrappedweb.com. And if you're enjoying this show, please head over to iTunes, leave us a five star review, and give us your feedback.
Speaker 2:I am castjam on Twitter. Jordan, what what's your handle?
Speaker 1:It's just at jordan gal, and that was definitely a great conversation with Sean. I hope you'll enjoy it. And until next time, we are Bootstrap Web.
![[36] Building a Business From Your Passion w/ Sean McCabe (seanwes)](https://img.transistorcdn.com/LDB_Cv9bHAA2vtoSPkZCpkdHPF6fAqfl7PL-PG7_c-M/rs:fill:0:0:1/w:800/h:800/q:60/mb:500000/aHR0cHM6Ly9pbWct/dXBsb2FkLXByb2R1/Y3Rpb24udHJhbnNp/c3Rvci5mbS9jMjkw/MDYxZDQ0MWIxYTUw/NTMzMGI2NTExZWMx/MWQ1Yi5qcGc.webp)