Product Growth Levers
Bootstrap web. We made it. We're back. How's it going, Jordan?
Jordan Gal:We made it. A little delay here, a little delay there. We're back today. I I got a
Brian Casel:big day over
Jordan Gal:here at home. We got the it's Jewish New Year. So Rosh Hashanah. I'm not a religious. I'm not very observant, but I like to, you know, keep the traditions going with the kids, be consistent with it.
Jordan Gal:So after this podcast, let's start doing some cooking.
Brian Casel:Okay. Make sure we got
Jordan Gal:some apples and honey and the the whole deal.
Brian Casel:So Right on.
Jordan Gal:We got that ahead of us.
Brian Casel:Are you going do you guys go to temple? Or
Jordan Gal:We we don't go to temple. No.
Brian Casel:Okay.
Jordan Gal:Nope. Just do it at home. And today is fun because it's Friday, which means it's, like, Shabbat dinner with the Rosh Hashanah.
Brian Casel:Uh-huh.
Jordan Gal:So it'll be fun. And, of course, you know, that's, like, from five to seven, and then, like, from seven to nine going to someone else's house or something, and then, like, four soccer games.
Brian Casel:There you go.
Jordan Gal:So that's it. You know, last week, I was like, oh, I'm so happy to be back in the routine. This is the routine. A lot a lot going on.
Brian Casel:I my family and I, we were we were raised Jewish, bar mitzvah and everything. And I I mean, it never just it just never stuck for me at a point now I had no idea that it was even that holiday today. So
Jordan Gal:Okay. So it really didn't stick. You you're you're nonstick, my friend.
Brian Casel:Nope. Nope. But yeah. That that's cool. I I remember all those all those traditions, though.
Brian Casel:Yes. For for me,
Jordan Gal:I think it's a I was not religious at all growing up. We didn't go to temple. Nothing. But we we kept up you know, we had dinner every Friday, that kind of thing. Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:But now my wife, not Jewish, if I don't go out of my way and be proactive, then, you know, not nothing will happen on the Jewish side. So I have the motivation.
Brian Casel:Cool. Alright. You know, it's another one of those days where we we recorded just a week ago. Now it's like, well, what are we what are we talk and I've got a bird right outside my window who wants to apparently join our podcast here.
Jordan Gal:Okay. Come on in.
Brian Casel:You know, what are we talking about? I feel like we should do, like, a random show. Just about
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I'm down. I saw you posting things on Twitter. I posted something on Twitter yesterday. I saw someone else's Shopify app got shut down.
Brian Casel:I saw that. Yeah. I saw your tweet about that. Yeah. I love how, like, that's your personal brand marketing strategy.
Brian Casel:It's like calling out Shopify horror stories.
Jordan Gal:It's it's it's bad. It's bad. It's bad. Someone was like, we should have a support group. I'm like, you should see the number of people I've spoken to over the last three years after I became known as, like, the Shopify screwing you, go talk to this guy.
Jordan Gal:Right. The number of like investors, funded company, founders that just get pointed in my direction. I'm like, here's the deal. I'm gonna give you the and and I I'm always honest with people. This is the tip of the spear version of the story.
Jordan Gal:This isn't what happens to everyone. This is just the worst case scenario. And one it's one point of view and factor it in. Don't, you know, immediately change your entire business, but have this point of view in mind.
Brian Casel:Yeah. But when it comes to this personal online branding thing, the key is to be known for one thing.
Jordan Gal:Is not
Brian Casel:what I want to be known for.
Jordan Gal:Speaking of, I have been encouraged again this week to start posting again, but on on LinkedIn.
Brian Casel:Dude, that's the thing. I mean, forever, I've been like, alright. Well, I'm gonna get into LinkedIn. I'm gonna see what this what this thing is all about. And I still every time I try to touch it, I'm like, I gotta get the hell out of here.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:I I I understand the sentiment.
Brian Casel:But I I actually am starting to do some stuff, not really myself on a day to day basis, but starting to do some cold outreach and it involves a bit of LinkedIn work.
Jordan Gal:Okay. So so when I say posting on LinkedIn, it's all within that context of of sales. I've been having conversations recently about marketing. I think we talked last week about that strategy that I heard about that evidently everyone knows except me about using something like Clearbit to identify visitor information and then pipe that over to your SDR. When they're making outbound calls for the day, they at least have five, ten, 15 companies that they can say, Hey, someone from your company visited our site yesterday.
Jordan Gal:Do you want to talk? So as I go further into those conversations,
Brian Casel:a lot
Jordan Gal:of it ends up with LinkedIn ads to drive the initial traffic. And then right next to that, it's if you're not posting on LinkedIn, you're just wasting. It's not even you wasting money. You're just wasting an opportunity because it gives you great reach. And if you want your outbound to be as effective as possible, you want visibility.
Jordan Gal:So ads will do that even if they don't click the ad, at least they're seeing your name and your company. But it is infinitely better to see an organic post from a real person than it is to see an ad. And it's effectively the same thing. They may not read your entire post. They may not click.
Jordan Gal:They may not do anything with it.
Brian Casel:These are all just chat like, they're all just channels or touch places where your name can be seen. And it and it's Yes. On each individual person, like, each lead, it's a question of, like, where where is their attention? Is their attention in their email inbox? Are they on LinkedIn?
Brian Casel:Are they searching Google for stuff? Do they talk to do they get all do they get do they buy based on recommendations from people? Like and these are all channels. Like and and I at the end of the day, it's sort of like be be on all of them.
Jordan Gal:Mhmm. Yeah. I I think now that we feel much more confident in our sales process, it's very natural for us to now start to look up the funnel and say, well, alright. Well, where's the traffic coming from and how can we add? Right?
Jordan Gal:If we're at the point where we wanna add volume, then it shouldn't just be more outbound. It should be other touch points and how to make outbound more effective.
Brian Casel:Yep. Yep. Yeah. I'll let you
Jordan Gal:if if if I'm able to make that turn.
Brian Casel:Yeah. For sure. I think what did I I've I've got I'm so unprepared with today's talk. But, you know, like, I am still in this, like, marketing experiments phase. Always a lot going on on the product side, but there are multiple marketing channels that we are testing right now in different phases of completion.
Brian Casel:Some are, like, in different stages of development in terms of the experiment. Some are just ramping up. Some are sort of shutting down. Some some are ongoing. But, thanks to last podcast, I'm talking to a few peep a few more coaches, potential coaches for one potentially working on working on, like, the SEO stuff, working with the other strategic coach.
Brian Casel:So I really like that approach of, alright. We because mice I really like this approach of, like, me and my small team can produce and ship and do the technical work and the internal processes and the execution. But, you know, just bringing in some outside point of views and and help to, like, just look over our stuff. I'll I'll show you everything you you need to see. I'll bring you into my atreps, my my analytics, numbers, all of it, and kinda strategize.
Brian Casel:I I feel like I I really like this general strategy. Like, forget about the individual marketing channels, but just the general this is sort of picking up on what we were talking about last week. Especially for someone like me, I am solo. I don't have business partners. I have a very small team, and they're and they are not, like, high level executive level team members.
Brian Casel:They are, you know, they're they're just really talented executors, task oriented. So in that sense, I'm really, really on my own day to day. And K. Anytime I can get and and, you know, there's there's always, like, advice and friendships that I have, like, long long term, but those are not, like, with me day to day or week to week or on an ongoing basis. And I'm really kind of interested now in, like like, I'm a good operator with my small team and bootstrapped and keeping it lean and process oriented, and we execute and we ship.
Brian Casel:I feel like we're really strong in all that. But now I'm I'm I'm interested in, like, layering on a level of, like, strategic help at a high level in these little bits and pieces of, like, coaching engagements, basically. You know?
Jordan Gal:And it's like, it's just it's not just augmenting knowledge that maybe you don't have internally or aren't familiar with this, but there's also an element to, like, taking other people's advice more easily and and motivation when you're performing for someone and the accountability of two weeks later, you got another call. How did it go? What what's next?
Brian Casel:I think that that is a a big part of it is this is the cycling cycling back on stuff. Because that's one thing when it comes to marketing channels. I tend to do a a a big sprint of work on something for, like, two weeks or something to set up some new processes, maybe delegate some something from a team member to do. And then I just move on to, like, the the next big project. And I sort of forget to to, like, circle back to, like, is that working?
Brian Casel:Should we be optimizing it somehow? Should we be course correcting? And and I think having a regular check-in, like, call or messaging a lot of my stuff now is async with people, but, like, at least having an ongoing conversation with someone. So that's interesting. Yeah.
Brian Casel:So we got some questions coming through on Twitter. I put it out there today.
Jordan Gal:Yes. And I wanna talk about at some point. I what's a good term for what I'm trying to talk about here? How would you define or what term would you use when you have a feature in mind that you think can be like a game changer? You know?
Jordan Gal:Like, almost like a build it and they will come type of a fallacy or a, you know, swing for the fences thing or game changing, whatever you wanna call it, I I am prone to that thinking. I am prone to it. When when we get this out, it changes everything. So I've gotten to the point where I'm I don't get overly excited about individual features because it's rarely gonna make that big of a difference. Yep.
Jordan Gal:But then but then sometimes I think I'm not being hopeful enough. Like, we're on something right now that I have to stop myself from that line of thinking because I I think this is the biggest feature of the entire company's life. And then and from then I I'm, like, motivated by it, but then I get worried that I'm getting my hopes up. And then I'm like, I feel like I don't have enough urgency. I should be, like, yelling from the mountaintops to rock and jest like, I don't care what we need to do.
Jordan Gal:Get this thing out, you know, as soon as possible. I I end up in a conversation myself on don't fool yourself, don't be overly optimistic, but don't forget, maybe you're right. Dude,
Brian Casel:I feel like you are describing my whole mindset for the past twelve, eighteen months on the cloud.
Jordan Gal:Once you get these two yeah. You call the feature complete or like Yeah.
Brian Casel:Yeah. But the okay. So I have a bunch of different thoughts on this. Okay. I agree with you that my gut instinct is the typical, like, I don't know, bootstrapper business mentality of, like, just enough to sell.
Brian Casel:Or, like like, it don't keep building for the sake of building. Like, I'm I I always start with that bias of, like like, even though I like to build and I consider product to be my stronger side compared to other parts, I still operate with the bias of, like, am I building too much? Am I spending too much time on this and not spending enough on marketing and sales? Like, just go out and sell. Just go out and grow.
Brian Casel:Focus on that, and don't focus on product. Like, that voice is always speaking to to me at all times.
Jordan Gal:Yes. Yes. Like, don't forget to sell. People are paying for it now. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:It's a good read.
Brian Casel:That's the thing. It's like, we have customers. Like, just go get more of them. Like, don't you don't need all these extra features. Okay.
Brian Casel:But I do think that there's there's also the product market fit question. And that is not it's not enough to just talk to customers or talk to a lot of them and then learn a bunch of stuff, which I did. It's also like, okay. I have a lot of learnings. We have to actually act on them.
Brian Casel:We can't just say we've learned a lot and then just try to keep selling the same product that was not fitting earlier. Like, you at a at a certain point, you have to admit, like, okay, version one or version 0.5 was not the final product, and that requires building. Like, you know and customers repeatedly have told me what they want and what they expect, and we don't have that yet. And so that was that's been my operating mentality of, like, we have to get to that quote unquote feature complete. That being said, there there have been okay.
Brian Casel:So we've been on this road map, like, I don't know. On the home page, it looks like three or four really big tent pole features. But within those features, there's a lot of mini features. Between the courses and the spaces and and right now, we're working on payments. Those are the big three to go along with our async conversations that we've always had.
Brian Casel:And there have been those and and and other parts of these things that, like, I thought that they were really, really significant when we were building them. But they and I think I talked about this last time. Like, on the you you know, in my mind, it's like we're spending a lot of resources on building this stuff. And I spoke to so many customers that expressed how important it is. And then on the day that it launches, like the day I send the email, it sometimes it feels like crickets.
Brian Casel:But at the same time but then you need a reality check on that too. Because it it that does not mean and I'm definitely seeing this as the weeks and months play out. Those features are still super important to build and ship, but you cannot expect them to really make a difference on the day that they ship. Like, that that is a lesson that I'm learning now.
Jordan Gal:Yes. The initial notification and publication of the news, it doesn't go wide enough. It doesn't get to enough people. Not enough people are seeing it, reading it, hearing it. That
Brian Casel:that that's true. Like, our overall audience is just not very large yet. That's that's one issue. But also, some of these features are so big that you can't expect customers to act on them the day they the day it becomes available. You know?
Brian Casel:Right. You know, like, they're it it's just they're not currently like, it's not like everyone was they had nothing else to do in their lives, and they've been waiting by their email inbox for me to tell them that we've launched the community spaces feature. Now they're going to migrate off of their other community tools and come right into Clarity Flow that week. It's that just does not work that way. Yeah.
Brian Casel:But in the weeks and months that follow, it it does completely change the game on the sales conversations. And the the conversion of people who visit our website for the very first time, and and now they actually consider us as an alternative to Circle and community apps. And and now that we have programs and courses, like, we literally have customers coming over and leaving Kajabi and Thinkific and course tools and migrating their courses onto Clarity Flow because it's in the same place where they can message with clients. You know, it's like and and those conversations and those conversions would not be happening had we not spent months building that stuff. So you know?
Jordan Gal:Which which at least to at least right now in the company, I often care more about how a feature will sell in the process than the actual adoption by users. And I know that that's not like a sustainable mindset, but we have features right now that really don't have much adoption, but they sell so well in a demo. And and it gets people excited and it gets them connecting dots and, oh, my my, you know, my client can use it doing this thing and, oh, we can give it to our sales reps or and and at least right now, I care more about that, if I'm being honest.
Brian Casel:You know what? And I and on that same note, I've taken the same approach with I I do show it in demos, but I show it right on the homepage on the website. I've done this for really all of my businesses, but especially in Clarity Flow. Like, I knew what this roadmap was gonna be starting from almost a year ago. We've launched a new website on Clarity Flow.
Brian Casel:I think it was like 03/01/2023. And our homepage and and all these pages on the site are, like, really promoting and selling all these big features. Most of them we did not have for most of this year, and some of them, like the payments feature, is still not there yet. We're selling it. Like, we're and and I think that that is it was sort of both painful and really helpful at the same time.
Brian Casel:You know? Because, like, I think that, like, by really promoting promoting it, like, as if it's a finished product on the homepage. Yeah. Some people might see that as being, you know, as deceiving and Okay. You know?
Brian Casel:But I just don't agree with that mindset because you have to the sooner that you can get a stranger to come to your website and give you feedback on whether it's resonating with them or not, the better. You know? And by launching that, and then and as soon as we launched all that information about these new features, you know what happened? I started receiving inbound questions and requests and interest. And and, oh, can I can I do this or that with the with the programs feature or with the spaces feature?
Brian Casel:I would get all those questions. And I and in my mind, I'd be like, shit. We haven't even built that yet. And I I wanna tell this person, like, yeah, you can do all that. And go ahead and sign up and do it.
Brian Casel:But Yeah. What I'm actually seeing is, like, this is someone who is telling me, like, they would be actually considering buying this today if it's available. And and then I have to, like, disappointingly tell them, like, hey. We were still working on that piece. It's coming in a few weeks, you know, but
Jordan Gal:Yeah. But I I don't know. That I feel like as long as you're transparent, it's okay.
Brian Casel:Yeah. What I my approach
Jordan Gal:So valid.
Brian Casel:It's on the if you look at the homepage, it's all there. If you look at the pricing page, it's there with a little coming soon label.
Jordan Gal:Okay. Okay. It's And now we're only one thing.
Brian Casel:Only all all of it is now shipped except for just the the payments feature.
Jordan Gal:So Payments. Okay. Yeah. We are we're work this feature that I think can be big for us, I'm currently going through the thought process on when to start talking
Brian Casel:about it.
Jordan Gal:Was just gonna
Brian Casel:ask, can you can you talk about it?
Jordan Gal:No. I can't. But but the timing of it really matters. I don't want it my our assumption
Brian Casel:is With your with your fall season, winter season, like, is this something that, like, you would have to ship next year? Or
Jordan Gal:It would probably ship in January. That's realistic. But I wanna start marketing and selling it as soon as possible. But as soon as we talk about it, there is an element to our competitors and tipping them off onto it. We don't want to over index
Brian Casel:on that.
Jordan Gal:At the end of the day, when I think about that balance between making it public, our competitor then knows, then they have time and all of those factors, I still conclude to just talk about as soon as possible. Because you may as well. And this is something that we've been working on and I've been like aiming at for a while, and I would be pissed off to hear our competitor announce it before us. I would definitely be pissed off.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Mhmm.
Brian Casel:I I mean, I am very I'm aware of competitors, and I and I I I just don't spend a lot of time, like, keeping tabs on them. But I I'm only aware of them in terms of how my customers talk about them. So, like, I never really consider it, like, a race or Yeah. Like, I just want I I like, have to be I'm racing against is our own clock in terms of, like, how soon can we get into the arena where we are a legit solid alternative? Because clients are asking us if we are a good alternative to that because they want to leave.
Brian Casel:They wanna lose us. You know?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I look. Before Rally, before this, like, VC funded version of it, I thought about competition the same way, that you don't have to beat the competition in order to build a successful business. In our universe now, the way our buyers buy because they are professional buyers, what they do for a living, they evaluate and then ask for approval. That process involves getting multiple proposals.
Jordan Gal:And then it really is, here are your three options, choose one and you either win or you lose. So it is a much more straightforward competition. It is like and and we have had multiple deals where it comes to us and the one competitor, and we've lost some, and we've won some. So it it really, really feels much more competitive in nature, which is a a weird thing. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:But I sympathize much more now with people and investors who are, you know, that, like, competitive
Brian Casel:That, like, that has its own benefits.
Jordan Gal:Aggressive version.
Brian Casel:What you're describing is, like, you you know exactly how how you are being compared. So, like, over time, you can just just hammer through, like
Jordan Gal:Yes.
Brian Casel:Overcoming every one of those objections and, like, you know Like Yes. Some of it comes down to, like, the buyer's approach, but, like, you you know that, like, on on every point that tends to come up in these deals, we we have a strong position. Here here's what Yes.
Jordan Gal:And and it also makes sense a lot more now why investors are like, you know, give us the differentiating points.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:And and when we're interviewing salespeople, that's what they wanna know also because they know you're gonna win or lose the deal based on how you are different from the competitor. Mhmm. Especially going up against an incumbent. As a start up, you need to have some differences to give them reason to go off of the default incumbent option.
Brian Casel:Yeah. You know, that the differentiating thing really is so important. I feel like I say this a lot, but it's, like, one of those, like, you know, business marketing lessons that I have to keep relearning. And and and and the whole, like, idea of niching down, No matter how many times I do it or try to do it, it's at first, it's hard. Like, because I know that there are people listening who have some sort of, like, app or product, and and they haven't fully embraced the idea of, like, really niching down to one market and being the perfect solution for them.
Brian Casel:But, like, the the in my experience now with with doing it both ways, the grass is greener when you niche down. It and and I hate these blanket statements, but at least in my experience on my products, like, it's it makes it easier. There it makes so many different things easier. Even, like, it makes the hard things easier. Like, for example, right now, talking about competitors, like, our main competitive differentiator is, like, we do what those tools do, except we are the one that is literally made for how coaches do it, not not how everyone does it.
Brian Casel:Like, for courses. Like, if you Mhmm. You compare us against a big name, like, course delivery platform, were for the way that coaches use courses in their work. Right?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. That's like just carving out a spot. But like,
Brian Casel:the other thing, an interesting thing that happened this week. So I sent my my monthly investor update a couple weeks ago, and and a friend, Aaron Casifer, gave me a really good reply. And this is one of those, like, I should've I should've had a clearer picture of this, but this is why it's great to get outside feedback. He was like, you know, your numbers on on everything, the metrics and everything, they're just really muddied up right now because of the transition from ZipMessage to ClarityFlow. Sure.
Brian Casel:And it's true. And and there are some so one one of the people on Twitter today, like, asked, like, if I would be transparent about Numbers and how the transition is going. Like I said, I don't like to be fully public about Numbers, but I can share some things here, which is, like, it's been a a rough ride for the past year. There have been good spots and bad spots. But the one sort of moment that my friend helped me realize is, like, just segment out your legacy customers versus your new customers.
Brian Casel:So I just did that in ChartMogul. And Okay. And, like, it, like, completely changed
Jordan Gal:Does it really? I was gonna say how different everything You
Brian Casel:know? It was, like, literally, like, a two two click, like, that I just had to pull up.
Jordan Gal:Right. Because you were viewing it as your business.
Brian Casel:Was just reviewing, like, the overall MRR, the overall churn, and the overall everything. And, you know, it's it's been a it's been like a rocky road with you know, for the past year. But then when you if I look at just new customers who've been signing up since we've been promoting it as Clarity Flow, since we've been promoting these prices, like, that's an MRR graph that goes up and to the right every month. You know? That's a trip.
Brian Casel:And and the and I sort of already knew this, but I didn't look at it in a graph, which was like, all the churn or the vast majority of our churn are older Old. Zip message customers who a lot of them, when they churn, they give me the message like, yeah, the new Clarity Flow direction is just not for me. I'm not a coach.
Jordan Gal:Yep. Yep. Which is expected.
Brian Casel:And look, I hate to see churn happen, of course. Sure. But like I said, the the whole thing with niching down, it makes even that feel better. Because I because most of the time, nine times out of 10, when a cancellation comes through now, it's one of those messages. Like, I'm not, like, the new direction is not for me, or I'm just not using it that much because I don't have the need the way that coaches have the need.
Brian Casel:And, you know, it's like, I don't want to see them go, but I'm but it definitely softens the blow. You know? Yes. It's it it hurts much more if it's like a coach and they
Jordan Gal:Sure. Then right. You you didn't get it right for those. Oh, interesting. It's like if you were we we had some of these issues around Cardhook back in
Brian Casel:the day when because we had
Jordan Gal:two products for a while. When I was raising money from a few angel investors, it was a much better story for the same reasons. We had one product.
Brian Casel:Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jordan Gal:We the abandonment product for like two years. And then we literally removed the ability to sign up for it. So then it just stagnated and was just on a slow decline with just churn. Mhmm. But then when I when I when I raise money and and I want to show metrics, then it was really all about just ignore that revenue entirely.
Jordan Gal:Let's pretend that doesn't exist. Yeah. That that's funny. So
Brian Casel:How do you look at metrics now? I'm curious. Like, how do you, what reports are you looking at? How often? What are your key metrics that you care about?
Jordan Gal:Not looking. Serious? Yeah. I look at revenue and I look at burn and is and I look at GMV and number of customers, but I don't look at profit well, I don't look at churn, I don't look at growth rates or it's just not, it doesn't give enough insight, the actual number. I look at GMV, that's my fun graph.
Jordan Gal:And that is my, we have an internal dashboard and I can see how much revenue we processed. Yesterday was our biggest day ever. Hell yeah. And I see how many people have been active in the last thirty days and I see what changes there are there. I see how much money people are making in post purchase.
Jordan Gal:I see some I look at some usage things. Yesterday when I was looking, I noticed that one customer was having a outsized day. And so our success reached out to them and said, What's going on? Do you guys get featured on a show or something? Then we're congratulating them and that type of thing.
Jordan Gal:But from a business metrics point of view, I really am looking at revenue and expenses. And then I'm having weekly conversations on pipeline where, like these 15 customers that are in these various stages, right? It ranges between like 15 and we don't look at like the early stage because then that's kind of pointless. But then we go one by one, like what is the next step with this person? Okay, we sent the proposal.
Jordan Gal:They said they're gonna get approval from their executive team. When are we expecting an answer? If we don't get answered by the state, like, what's our next step? Like, what are we what are we sending them?
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. So it's really very, very qualitative right now.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I'm sort of the opposite on on I have cooled it off with, like, checking the MRR graph all the time. I I was doing that for a while. And then it just got to a point where it's just like, this is not helping strategically. It's not helping me mentally.
Brian Casel:This is not good. But, I mean, I do still check that. And but the the opposite thing is, like, I don't I'm not really closely tuned into, like, expenses and burn and stuff. I I mean, I'm aware of what it is, but it doesn't change all that often. Like, I just keep the the team at what it's at.
Brian Casel:I mean, unless I make a decision to, like, do a new investment, which happens, I don't know, once once or twice. I don't know. It happens at at different schedules. But, like, it's not like all of a sudden things are gonna get way out of control on on burn. You know?
Brian Casel:I that's sort of just like a steady state, and I I do the bookkeeping every supposed to be every month. And then that's it. You know? But the month I I think the first of the month is a big one for me. Writing the investor update, really reviewing that's when I closely review the numbers, and I sort of dig in and see, like, how did we do this month compared to the last three or four months?
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:True. So You wanna go to Twitter?
Brian Casel:Yeah. Let's do that. I asked a few people, I asked for people to, share their business and what they're currently what their current challenge is. I think there's one or two that alright. How about this one?
Brian Casel:Jason Beggs. I I worked with Jason. He, he did the front end development on the new Clarity Flow site, along with with Mike McAllister who designed it. But Jason has, I think he like, he's been offering this service for a while, but, hey, I think he he just launched, like, a new branded version of it at designtotailwind.com. So Okay.
Brian Casel:The Like design like
Jordan Gal:like PSD to HTML? Yeah.
Brian Casel:The old school p PSD to HTML, except this is, you know, Figma to Tailwind. I I guess you mentioned, like, other stuff too. But it's mainly like and, dude, like, I first of all, just as a testimonial, like, I worked with Jason. He is the man. I mean, one of the best front end devs that I've ever worked with.
Brian Casel:I learned a ton from him. And I mean, especially, you know, working with Tailwind inside and out. And he also helped me set up Static CMS. So awesome work there. So now he's like I guess it's sort of like a productized service, sort of, at least the way that he's promoting it.
Jordan Gal:Mhmm.
Brian Casel:So he his challenge that he said on Twitter was he's getting decent traffic, 300 plus views a month, but mostly return customers, not many new ones. How do I get new leads for it? That's what he's asking. I got some quick thoughts, I guess. I mean, it is a service, and I believe it's just him.
Brian Casel:I don't think he has, like, a team turning this stuff out. Maybe he plans to do at some point. But, first of all, it's like it's a service, which means you don't need, that many customers
Jordan Gal:Yep.
Brian Casel:For it to be but I would I would lean on referrals, honestly. You know? Because, like, service providers, especially like like this, it it really is word-of-mouth. And that's gonna happen naturally if you're if you're good, and you do good work for good clients. Like, you're gonna get some natural word-of-mouth.
Jordan Gal:Yes.
Brian Casel:The the benefit that I think Jason has is working with a lot of it seems like a lot of his clients are, like, higher visibility SaaS companies.
Jordan Gal:That's I agree with you a 100%.
Brian Casel:So if you get them to I talk about your work mean, I've referred a bunch of people to Jason and Mike over the last year just talking about their work on Clarity Flow. Because Right.
Jordan Gal:From your experience. Right.
Brian Casel:We just look at it. It's awesome. You know? And so I don't know. Like, some I don't know if there's, like, specific tactics here, but I would be really leaning on, like, how can how can you, like, showcase the work and get it out there more.
Jordan Gal:That feels like the the best marketing asset. The fact that you have, like, I mean, you know, for lack of better term, influence type previous clients. People always want to look up and admire the people that they look up to and then be more like them and use the same services and feel like they're in the same strata, all of those emotional triggers along with all, like, the trust and credibility that comes with sites that are visible. That seems like the best marketing asset. And maybe he needs to go on LinkedIn and be a little more shameless like us.
Brian Casel:There you go. I think also something like that, it's it's tailwind CSS. It's it's design. It's it's coding. So I guess you could do things like invest a lot of time and energy into, like, growing a YouTube channel with, like, tips on how to do that stuff and
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Expertise.
Brian Casel:I guess that's good to do, and and you could grow a large audience, and that could help. But it's gonna be a ton of work. Whereas you don't maybe you don't need if if you don't wanna do that stuff naturally, then, you know, then you then you just need, like, five really good clients a month, and it's a great business. You know? And you can
Jordan Gal:get You can also look for distribution through like minded or aligned partners. Right? So if there are, right, think about for us, for example, who the partners that we're aligned with work with e commerce merchants, but don't want to build and maintain their own checkout. So they're like, perfect. We don't want to do that.
Jordan Gal:Let's send it over to you. So where else is that natural for this part of the marketing site process? Right? Maybe there are firms that are great and love to design, but then don't wanna code. Like, you can team up with them and then they'll they'll send a business so he doesn't have to do his own marketing.
Brian Casel:Yeah. My my buddy, Rich Stats, runs a a fantastic business called Secret Stash, and they are a WordPress dev shop. And they and that that has been his strategy for years now. He just he has a a beautiful, like, sales funnel where he just reaches out to design agencies all over the place. And he becomes their go to coding shop to get their clients stuff, you know, developed in in, like, high end WordPress.
Jordan Gal:Yep. That that'll work. Yep.
Brian Casel:I don't know. There's a couple more like that in in the feed. You got anything? Any other, like, topics or whatever?
Jordan Gal:I don't know. What what what else has happened in the world?
Brian Casel:You're gonna get a new iPhone or new Apple Watch?
Jordan Gal:Not gonna get a new iPhone.
Brian Casel:You know, that's like I I feel like I'm due for one. I could probably, like I don't think it's gonna cost anything to replace mine on my plan and stuff, but, like, I don't know. I have the 12 Pro. Like, they have there's there's what's been new about it in the last three, four, five years? It's slightly better camera.
Brian Casel:The camera's great already. It's Yeah. Better. It's lighter. Why do I want it to be lighter?
Brian Casel:I don't I don't I don't know why.
Jordan Gal:It feels like the the biggest news coming out of it is all the drama around lightning and USB c and switching again and regulation.
Brian Casel:Who knows? Yeah. How about, how about health? This is something that I'm actually really into
Jordan Gal:right now.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Like, I'm curious to know because I I'm I'm finally, for the first time in a really long time, I'm starting to shed a few pounds and, and get in better shape and take exercise a lot more seriously and eat. And just my whole relationship to food is changing now. I'm curious to know, like, what does your routine look like now? I know we've talked about this before, but, like Okay.
Brian Casel:I don't know. How do you how do you, how do you how do you stay on top of it?
Jordan Gal:Okay. So at some point over the summer, I I lost control of it. And I would kinda like look over in a in like a mirror, like walking. I I I can think of like a few times, right? I'm in a bathing suit, got a T shirt on, like at the pool and I look over and it's just is a little there's more roundness to the belly than I than I would like.
Jordan Gal:I'm looking a little little more up and down, a little less, you know, extending outward. And that that motivates me where I'm like, I don't I don't wanna feel like that. Alright. What what do I need to do? So as the summer, like, started to come to a close, I was like, this is, like, one of those perfect opportunities where, you know, you're not going out all the time and every weekend and all this stuff constantly.
Jordan Gal:So the for me, I do I work out twice a week. It's 6AM Tuesdays and Thursdays. My wife
Brian Casel:likes Orangetheory?
Jordan Gal:No. I I I stopped Orangetheory, and I found this local gym. And the the joke with my wife and I is I was the only dude. So it's Okay. Me me and, like, five moms, okay, in this group in this group training.
Jordan Gal:And I don't care, I'm game, you know, whatever, I'll break the glass ceiling. But I went I felt a little uncomfortable because, you know, ladies are like, alright, now we gotta deal with a dude in the room, you know, which is fine, that's fine. But we start off and, like, we do the little warm up, like the, you know, little, like, three minute warm up before getting into the actual thing. And this warm up was straight feminine. It was like like was no
Brian Casel:one could see. It's like a dance class.
Jordan Gal:It it was like it was like that. Okay. It was like a dance thing from the eighties. And I was like, I have made a mistake.
Brian Casel:This is a
Jordan Gal:terrible mistake. But but then and then we finished the warm up, and the actual workout is amazed. Exactly what I want. Like, circuits change every few minutes, some body weight, some some this and that, and it was, like, perfect. So and and now another dude joined up.
Jordan Gal:So one of the lady's husbands, she definitely, like, went home and told him, like, hey. This man joined our class. You can join now.
Brian Casel:That's hilarious.
Jordan Gal:So that's my spot.
Brian Casel:I got a question. There's something similar to that recently. Alright. So I've been playing tennis for for a Okay. About a year or so.
Brian Casel:And I I've been really enjoying it. Getting I'm still pretty bad, but I'm getting better. I'm actually playing tonight. I got a tournament planned tonight. But the Nice.
Brian Casel:So I've been getting into that. I I I really love, like, playing and the competition of it. And also just with myself, like, getting my game together.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Get better.
Brian Casel:It's a huge challenge. Like, really, really difficult to actually get get the strokes down.
Jordan Gal:Do you get mad at yourself?
Brian Casel:Super mad. I I get mad. I'm like, why do I put myself through this? But then I go play, like,
Brennan Dunn:twice a week. You know?
Jordan Gal:Love it. Alright.
Brian Casel:So but one thing about where where I live, I'm in the suburbs here. And there's a couple, like, tennis clubs. And here in the summer, I go to the outdoor place, and there's a group that so I've been playing with these, like, like, point play groups, you know, which has been fine. A good way to learn, a good way to get out there and and sweat and and but, like, what I really want is a league that I can show up and somebody has arranged an opponent for me so that I can go have a match just lined up. Like, I don't I don't wanna have to have to, like, do, like, whole social club.
Jordan Gal:No. The planning. No. No.
Brian Casel:Yeah. The planning. I just know, you know, I have friends who, like, live in the city, and, like, that's what they have. There's so many players. They just join a club, and they show up every Tuesday night.
Jordan Gal:There's a game line that's scheduled out for months. Yeah.
Brian Casel:So you don't have that. I don't really there's there's one league I could do, but it's a higher level. I'm I'm not nowhere near good enough to believe that yet. The so I was like, alright. Well, how do I solve this problem?
Brian Casel:I could keep playing tennis. I can keep doing the the point play stuff, which I am doing right now. But there's this thing, pickleball, which is on a tear. Yeah. And I'm a and and the the pickleball courts are right next to the tennis courts.
Brian Casel:Every time I see it, the there's, like, 12 courts. They're entirely packed. Right? All the time. And there's a whole program in my town.
Brian Casel:Like, they're arranging these matches. There's a whole league. I'm like, great. This Okay. This sounds great.
Brian Casel:Let me so I put it out on Twitter. I was like, is is pickleball actually fun? Like Oh, hell yes. So I did it. I signed I signed up for, like, pickleball one zero one or whatever.
Brian Casel:Okay. And my one fear of this was that it would just be all super old people. You
Jordan Gal:know? Oh, no. I feel like it's it's cut across every
Brian Casel:Well, that was the impression that I got, like, on Twitter. Like, all like, friends. My my Friends loves it. They're like, yeah. I play it all the time.
Brian Casel:It's a lot of fun. I show up and, like, dude, I have gray hair and stuff, but, like, I am clearly by far the youngest person on the court here. You know? Awesome. Awesome.
Brian Casel:I don't know. I I played and I I I did it the one time, and then I just went straight back.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. And that's it.
Brian Casel:I was like, I I just gotta get back. I'm I'm playing tennis. That's what I'm doing.
Jordan Gal:Okay. So I'm I'm about to start a a league for a sport called paddle. Have have you seen that? I don't
Brian Casel:think so.
Jordan Gal:It's like pickleball. It's a shrunken down tennis court, and it's a paddle sport. It uses a tennis ball like ball, but with a little less bounce, and it has, like, walls that are in play. Yes. So it's, like, big here in Chicago, and it's a winter sport.
Jordan Gal:So, like, the courts are heated, and then everyone hangs out in, a little hut, you know, with, like, a barbecue and some beers, and and there's, like, leagues. So I that's that's my version of get into a a tennis league, and I'm about to start that in the next, like, two weeks. Nice. I've never never played before. I don't own a racket.
Jordan Gal:I gotta, like, buy all this stuff. But like you, I'm like, it's
Brian Casel:just too good. Yep.
Jordan Gal:And everyone here plays it. So I'm like, alright. Fine.
Brian Casel:Let's do it. Like so, I mean and, you know, pickleball, I I get the appeal, but it's like I personally, I just don't find it as enjoyable to than, like, baseline rallies on on tennis.
Jordan Gal:I mean, tennis. You're you're running to
Brian Casel:the net, and it's like I don't know.
Jordan Gal:It's it is a different thing. Yeah. Tennis is so beautiful. It's it's great, but but it's less accessible.
Brian Casel:I I still I still have this problem, though, that I wanna play more, especially more competition. Like, tonight, I'm in a tournament, which is, like, only, like, a once a year thing. But I my plan now as we get into the fall and winter, I I do go to an indoor club during those months. I think I'm just gonna invest in a in a private coach to play with, like, twice a twice a month probably. And the goal is, number one, to just play a lot, get good enough, get my tennis rating up enough to be able to just join, like, the higher level league.
Brian Casel:You know? Yes. And that's that's the goal. I don't know. I I wanna do it, like, sooner rather than later.
Brian Casel:But
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I'm with you. It's it's kinda fun, like, you know, in in your forties. I know I'm in my forties headache. You're you're right there.
Brian Casel:Oh, I'm I'm turning 41 next month.
Jordan Gal:Oh, look at you. Shit. Yeah. It's it's fun to kinda find new new sports. I mean, right, this is I've literally never played this sport before, but I'm just gonna dive in because it just sounds like too much fun.
Jordan Gal:But the most important thing for me is over the last, like, three weeks, I have turned the corner. And now I am, like, excited to work out and, like, a little bit addicted to feeling sore.
Brian Casel:Me
Jordan Gal:too. And I'm, like, doing push ups in the kitchen, like, kind of thing.
Brian Casel:Hell yeah.
Jordan Gal:Because it just feels it's just you you know, at some point, it's not, oh, I gotta go to the gym. It's like, I I don't wanna miss on I don't wanna miss this Tuesday because then I won't feel as good.
Brian Casel:I I really changed the whole game for myself over so I on on on the exercise side, I feel like eating has been a big change for me too. But the exercise, I have been working I I started strength training about a year ago using a five by five program, if you're familiar with that. I built a home gym in my garage. I'm lifting, like like but and I got stronger, and I'm feeling better over the past year. But I did not see a whole lot of, like, real results in terms of, like, my overall weight and fitness.
Brian Casel:Yeah. And a big part of that was eating. And I and I think also I wasn't training hard enough. So now, recently, I I'm continuing the five by five. I've I've added so I do that three times a week, which is like, you know, like squats and bench press and Okay.
Brian Casel:Deadlifts and stuff like that. And then I added a circuit, like a core circuit with, like, push ups and planks and leg lifts and and things like that. So that and that's more of a fast paced, like, short rest time. So that that gets my heartbeat up. So I'm combining that stuff three times a week.
Brian Casel:And then on the off days, I'm walking a lot, like, a lot more than before. I I do, like, two or three miles so that I'm doing all that movement, like, seven days a week, whether it's strength or getting out there and listening to podcasts and walking, plus, like, tennis two nights a week. So, like That's great. Just trying to, like, really amp up the overall movement of my of my body is but it's at a point now where where, like, I I really feel uncomfortable if I go any day without doing one of those things. Like, I I can't have a day when I'm doing nothing.
Brian Casel:No.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. That's that's pretty good. I the the diet thing is really hard.
Brian Casel:Dude, that has been the biggest change. I I started counting calories. This has been about three weeks ago now. Lost eight pounds in the last three weeks. And and portion control.
Brian Casel:Those if if I had to, like, really boil it down, there's a couple more things in there.
Jordan Gal:Just eat a little less.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Like, single meal, I I was just eating so much more than I real because I felt like I've been eating, like, reasonably healthy for for the past several years as we got older. You know, I don't eat a ton of fast food anymore. And, like, you know, we we eat healthy at home, but just the portion sizes, and the snacking. Even if the snacks are healthy, there was still just a lot of calories going in.
Brian Casel:And
Jordan Gal:I can't control it, man. I can't stop it.
Brian Casel:That's the thing. And so now it's just like food. Just literally, like like, not only counting it, but, like, planning out the day. Like like, I know if I do this protein shake, that's, you know, that's, like, two scoops, 200 calories right there. That's gonna hold me over for the whole morning, and then I'm gonna do this this lunch, and, like, that's gonna be that number of calories for lunch.
Brian Casel:And then I I know I'm gonna be doing this for dinner, and, like, that'll be it. And just just being more aware of that, like, it's it's really helped. It's been kinda hard some days, but, like, overall, it feels much better. Yeah. And I and I think it's the kind of thing, like like, with anything else that's, like, when I feel better health wise, I'm working better, and I'm making better decisions.
Brian Casel:Mhmm. I'm not as emotional and distracted and unfocused at work. And I Mhmm. Like, it's more for me, like, that's the big payoff is, like, I actually perform better in business when I'm performing better as, like, a human. You know?
Jordan Gal:Yes. But, like, the the cycle ideally just connects to every other part, how you feel about yourself, how you feel, like, in terms of rest and sharpness, how you perform at work, how you perform as a dad and a husband, like, all ideally, that, like, all starts, like, going in a in a positive circle.
Brian Casel:100%. Yep.
Jordan Gal:Fat and edibles, you got everything you need.
Brian Casel:There you go. You know, that's another weird thing about this calorie thing is that, like, I months ago, I cut out drinking beers at home. And, occasionally, I still have one, like, when we go out, but, like, I wanna sort of cut the calories, but I don't wanna cut the alcohol. So I'm still still trying to figure that out. I guess I just gotta, like, stick to whiskey.
Brian Casel:But even that, it's it's hard to, like, fit into my routines.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Like, be like, beers are really bad for you. Right? And and on that front. I have gotten Well, like, I
Brian Casel:just like especially on, like, a Friday night, I just like a cold beer. You know?
Jordan Gal:You like I I hear that. I hear that. I I really I appreciate when it's freaking ice cold, man. When I get at a restaurant, I'm like, thank you very much for giving me a beer that I can't get at home. I can't get it at this temperature.
Jordan Gal:I've gone into canned palomas, you know, like tequila and grapefruit.
Brian Casel:Oh, interesting.
Jordan Gal:Well, I moved over from, like, High Noon, and I tried the High Noon tequila. It's it's it's no bueno. But this other this other brand, oof, delicious. I would always prefer to have tequila as the underlying alcohol over, like, a vodka or beer or something else.
Brian Casel:I feel like every time I have tequila, I I'm like, why don't I drink an why is this not my go to? Like, whiskey is usually my go to or or beer.
Jordan Gal:But Yeah. All liquors other than tequila make me feel like I'm on the path down, and tequila makes me feel like I'm going up.
Brian Casel:That's a good way to put it.
Jordan Gal:And that I'm, like, addicted to that, like, you know, that Red Bull feeling along with a little intoxication. Speaking of tomorrow, going to a costume Las Vegas themed costume party. I'm dressing as Ace Rotstein, Robert De Niro's character in casino.
Brian Casel:Oh, wow.
Jordan Gal:Oh, that's a bummer. Oh my god. I got my hair slip back. I got my, sunglasses. I got, an oversized coat with a ridiculous, like, shirt with big lapel.
Brian Casel:Oh, wow.
Jordan Gal:Pumped up. Great. I thought it was, like, a 20 person dinner party. Turns out it's, like, a 125 person, like, legit party. I have no idea, but I'm excited.
Brian Casel:Well, we're gonna go to my nephew's, fifth birthday party tomorrow. So that that should be a whole lot of fun.
Jordan Gal:Hell yeah. Good luck on all the soccer games this weekend, and and your your pickleball or tennis.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Playing tennis tonight. Alright. Good stuff. I I hope it was random enough for folks today.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. You know, just to hang. You know, be
Brian Casel:in touch. Let us
Jordan Gal:know what you're to.
Brian Casel:Alright. Later, folks.
Jordan Gal:See you, everyone.
