Winning Partnerships
Welcome back, everybody. Another episode of Bootstrapped Web. Mister Brian Castle, how are you?
Brian Casel:Yes. Jordan, what's up, buddy? It is December 8. And, we're getting into that end of the year theme, end of the year mindset. I don't know about you.
Brian Casel:There there's a little bit of, like, like, holidays are setting in. Like, we just booked a ski trip for December, and and so I'm looking forward to little breaks here and there. But mostly, I'm thinking about this is the end of the year. I'm looking back on how things went and where things are going for next year. So
Jordan Gal:Yeah. 2024 starting to, you know, play a bigger role in in my mindset overall.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:We still see some opportunity over the next week or two. Right now, I find myself responding in much the same way that we see our prospects responding, which is like, sure. How about the third week in January?
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:And that's fine as long as we get on the calendar. So we're looking at this window of a of a the next week or two to just get in touch with some people, reconnect, put no pressure on. But that's almost like a like a an analogy for what's going on in my brain where I'm taking my foot off the gas and starting to think about family. Last night was our first night of Hanukkah. We're going to out of town for the hot for for Christmas and New Year's, all that.
Jordan Gal:And then at the same time, mentally, I'm, like, gathering strength. Like, you know, I really wanna get off on the right foot in January.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Me me too. Yeah.
Brian Casel:Think actually, Clarify took a took a bump like, bump up. Like, it had a pretty good November. And there are some like, we're not out of the woods yet, I would say, but there are some bright spots in our metrics, specifically our trial to paid conversion. Has been steadily improving month after month
Jordan Gal:Okay.
Brian Casel:From, like, October, November. If this continues in December and January, then things could start to look pretty good in just in terms of the trajectory. Like, nothing like hockey stick growth here. We're still very far from the target, if you will, the milestone. But like the we're the one thing that I'm really happy to see in Clarity Flow is I talked about how I shipped the the self serve demo.
Brian Casel:Okay. Self serve demos on the front end on the marketing site. And then I shipped like the same thing in the app on in the onboarding flow. And that's like a series of videos. They're like freshly recorded videos showing all of our new newest features.
Brian Casel:And I'm since since launching that, I think about five or six weeks ago now, trials have been slightly up. Meaning, like, visitors to the marketing site, they they are requesting the recorded demo. That has replaced my live calls, which is nice. Like, I don't have all like, a crazy calendar like I had before that with doing demos. And and I think it actually delivers a much better demo because it's like optimized, recorded.
Brian Casel:Let me walk you through.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. You don't forget something that you meant to mention.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah. Or I don't get like thrown off track and all this different stuff. But but then once they're in the trial, now I'm immediately it's like noticeable. First of all, the trial to paid conversion is is improving.
Brian Casel:But I actually see like users are easily finding and using and engaging with all of our features. Whereas before, we had all these features that people were just not finding where they were, or they thought they didn't exist, or they had trouble even understanding them. And I'm noticing this not only in, like, the usage stuff, but, like, actually an increase in customer support since launching the onboarding. And you would think that that's like a bad thing, but I see it as a good thing because the customer support tickets that I am receiving now are more, like, well informed. Like, these are customers who are asking much more informed questions.
Brian Casel:It's clear from from the questions that they're asking that they are much more deeply using the features that we have and and trying to get a lot more out of the product, because we now have a lot more in the product. Mhmm. And so I I even though it's a it's definitely a noticeable increase in, like, the number of emails in my inbox every week from customer support, it's like, these are customers who are really using it. And that's a good sign, I think. You know?
Brian Casel:It's not that I I would not characterize it like you see these, like, tweets about product market fit, and the market is is knocking down your door with demand. It's nothing like that. But we get a steady flow of organic demand every month, and we're starting to convert and engage them better. I I think as a result of the onboarding stuff we shipped.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Yeah. That's that's pretty interesting in terms of the the the effectiveness of the format that you're delivering that information through.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Wouldn't I wouldn't mind seeing some of that. Yeah.
Brian Casel:Yeah, man.
Jordan Gal:Because it's hard to visualize where that lives. And, you know, is it a screen that you can avoid when you first walk in? Is it tucked away? Is it some combination?
Brian Casel:The way that I set it up is so if you sign up for a trial well, first of all, you can just see it on the marketing site by, like, going to request a demo. You enter your email address. It takes you to the page where you could see all these videos. That's you're you're still on our marketing site. You haven't signed up for a trial
Jordan Gal:Cool. Out in front.
Brian Casel:But then, if you sign up for a trial, what'll happen is it does pop up like a big modal window, kind of like covering up your view. And you can press play on the first video, but you could eat right away, like, click out of it if you wanna get out of it. The you know, it'll remember the fact that you closed out of it. It's not gonna pop it up again. But there is a little thing in the corner, so you can get back to it if you want to.
Brian Casel:Mhmm. And, you know, it's it's it's It does I Like, my goal with it was, like, definitely put it in your face front and center first. Let you x out of it if you want to, but make it easy to bring it back anytime. That's the philosophy on it, you know.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Yeah. Ideally, goes along with the type of user who appreciates being able to go off and get the information themselves instead of reaching out.
Brian Casel:Yep. Yep.
Jordan Gal:Cool. Well, we have a the the impact that the two new AEs have had is is super interesting. It's made us relook at all the stuff that we're doing. And then and then getting everyone aligned in trying to accomplish the same thing. Right?
Jordan Gal:Like naming and specifying the goals. The number of customers, the amount of money, the revenue, like what your quota is, how your comp is, set all that. Really what that does is it just it just make sure that everyone's everyone's in line in terms of the same goals. And then you start to see where people's ideas are on how to go about those goals. So it and it ranges.
Jordan Gal:For example, one of our one of our account executives after watching a bunch of recorded demos and then joining a few demos over the last few weeks, her take on it was when I see the reaction of the person in like the ten minutes that you are showing off the product, the reaction is so positive that she's starting to identify that the part of the process that allows people to go from I'm interested in it to I'm using it, Like that part of it, she's like more people should be getting to that step based on the excitement and interest that I see on the call. So she's starting to look at that and say, well, maybe what we need to do is lower the barrier to allow them to express that interest. So maybe we should be offering accounts. Maybe we should get them in before we do the technical call.
Brian Casel:Yeah. So what's normally from the demo, what's normally the next step?
Jordan Gal:The next step is normally a technical scoping call with someone more technical on their team.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:And so that right. They still don't have access to an account. They don't have a login. It's not connected. All this other stuff.
Jordan Gal:And it's not like we just made that up. We've adjusted the process Yeah. But we're definitely not done adjusting. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. So so we are we're like really focused on learning over these last few weeks. So we had a demo with a large merchant this morning. And then as soon as that gets done, I take the recording and I, you know, put it out into Slack. And then people start asking questions about it, and then they kinda take their their take on it.
Jordan Gal:So there's a lot of there's just a lot of focus in that part of our company.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:And it ranges from right. I I had my Friday, like, wrap up call with the SDRs. It's actually only only one today because one's out. And there, the focus is something similar. Like, what messaging works on the call?
Jordan Gal:Let's listen to that and help Mhmm. Allow that to inform the messaging that we should put out.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Like, which which benefits seem to resonate most.
Brian Casel:And I I've started to do that a lot with the messaging and, like, the copy on the on the site and in the emails and, like, started to name features differently based on what my customers call them. You know? Like, we have, like, a feature that we called programs, but really people are using it for courses. So now, basically, everywhere, it's called a course, even though in the day to day, a small Yeah. Mhmm.
Brian Casel:Yeah. So, you know, things like that. So, yeah, what what else we got? So, again, we're we're thinking about, like, December end of the year 2024. Are we are we up to I I know that you and I probably don't do the the formal, like, listing our goals for the year like we used to in years past, but I know we definitely get into this, like, headspace around this time of year of, like, how is 2024 gonna be different from this year?
Brian Casel:You know?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I'm pretty schizophrenic on it right now. I'm I'm a little low all over the place. I have I have these different blobs that shrink and enlarge around fear, excitement, optimism, aggression, frustration, guilt, and they just move around. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:And one minute I feel amazing, and the next minute I'm gloomy. So it's it's I think it's a challenging environment. I have been finding myself looking at our projections. And what I did with our projection sheet, I think we've talked about this. Right?
Jordan Gal:We've got like bunch of numbers and revenue, and then down below, it gets into cash flow, and then it gets into bank account balance. Yep. And that is just where I live.
Brian Casel:Yeah. And there's like a there's like the the the current scenario, the the realistic scenario, the oh shit scenario, the
Jordan Gal:Yeah.
Brian Casel:You know. I've going through the same exercises. We've been talking about it over the last couple of months here. And and, yeah. I mean, and and the different blobs of emotions, like, it's all too real, man.
Brian Casel:It is all too real.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. No. It's it's difficult and these are moments where I really appreciate having Rock and Jess, you know, working very closely together for years because I I I need it sometimes. Mhmm. You know, Rock Rock's in a good strong place and he's optimistic and it really helps me.
Jordan Gal:It's really helpful because I I think being tasked with my ultimate responsibility of making sure there's enough money in the bank It's just stressful Yep. Because it is a combination of go to market stress, getting pipeline, closing deals, pricing properly, getting them onboarded, collecting money, all that stuff. But it's also like fundraising and positioning. And so, you know, you you have to be in an optimistic place
Brian Casel:You know.
Jordan Gal:To to like to to do well.
Brian Casel:That this is the one of the core things that I'm always so jealous of folks like you who have a strong business partnership with someone else. I've been solo for my whole career here and Yeah. And still very much solo. And so this thing, the strategic planning and and keeping the mindset clear and and taking emotions out of it, or or at least just regulating emotions, I feel like that there's a big burden on my shoulders to handle that alone without without bouncing ideas. Like, you were just saying off air how, like, you and Rock kind of balance each other out in times like these, like, between optimism and pessimism.
Brian Casel:Right? And and I have to sort of do all that in my own head alone. I I I compensate through I I work with a business coach. I have mastermind groups. I have a whole bunch of different friends and advisers that I go to.
Brian Casel:But still, those are still at a distance, at an arm's length. And the other thing that I find as as well meaning as my friends and advisers and mastermind groups are when I talk about, and and also listeners of this podcast reach out to me, like, you know, given like
Jordan Gal:Tell you.
Brian Casel:You know, to be clear, like, only share about roughly half of the picture on air. There's a lot that you that you can't share publicly. But the Yeah. What else do you You know, the thing is is is that, like, I think by by most people's nature or founder's nature is, you hear a problem. Alright.
Brian Casel:Let's try to strategize a solution to that problem. And so when I talk about things with Clarity Flow and the runway and the to profitability and all this stuff, it's like, oh, well, did you try this or that or or this strategy or or that strategy to to increase conversion rate here or there? It's like, yeah. Like, we're always doing stuff like that, and we have stuff going like that. But I but I have come had to come to a higher level, bigger picture And, you know, talking about those, like, blobs of of emotion and switch moving through those at this time of year, I look back on the last three years, and I feel like I, even though I have some wins and and and progress made with with Clarity Flow and everything, it's it's also like, well, I think maybe my career got a little bit off track in these last couple of years.
Brian Casel:And my theme for 2024 is get back on track. You know? Get I I feel like for I've been self employed for fifteen years. In the first twelve of those years, like, I was on a more or less steady stair stepping progression of progress. And I feel like from 2021 up until now, it's sort of paused a little bit, and I need to I need to get back on the on on the staircase, if you will.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. What do you what do you do? What's the conversation like in your head to get yourself back on track? Like, I I can talk about that on on my side. It is like it is a bit of a conversation.
Brian Casel:Oh, me too.
Jordan Gal:I'm gonna feel better. Ready? You know, it's not that.
Brian Casel:It's it's very much that. And, I mean, literally, this is this is we I I do a lot of journaling type typing, but I also actually do, like, audio. Like, literally, like, do spoken kinda audio journaling, and then I listen back to myself. Oh, so you
Jordan Gal:you really talk it out?
Brian Casel:Basically. Yeah. Because I I find that that helps, like I I almost sometimes I actually do share it with a with a mastermind group or, a private podcast group that I'm in. But most of the time, I record as if I'm presenting to a group. Because that that's that that does help k.
Brian Casel:Get it out of your head. Because when it's in your head, it it might make sense to you theoretically, but really, there's a whole bunch of bullshit in there. But when you have to speak it out and make the case and present or pitch or, you know, that's where shit gets real. And so But, you know, what I also, over the last couple of months, I I did a lot of actually presenting to to friends and mastermind groups with, like, the I've been talking about how I'm starting up this new or, like, you know, shifting focus with Clarity Flow and moving into the like, starting up a new business that I'm calling Instrumental Products. It's just like media brand.
Brian Casel:I talked about it on the previous episode. I haven't shared all the details with my friends and advisers yet, but the but I have multiple times shared, like like in the last two months, projection spreadsheet where I would have to like kind of walk through my logic on like, here's where I've ended up in the last couple of years. Here's some like strategic changes that I need to make in focus, and and these are the different paths that I considered and the logic. And just stepping through the logic of, like, here's here's where I landed on this decision. And and, yeah, just kinda going through it.
Brian Casel:And and so, like, where I where I ended up was, like, just a few months ago, I was still in the mindset of, like, let's just do everything possible to make Clarity Flow work as a business and get to profitability with this sense of urgency within this time frame before runway runs out. But I have progressively over the last couple of months, and now I'm solid on this decision and direction, which is like Mhmm. No. I'm done trying to play the urgency game.
Jordan Gal:Okay.
Brian Casel:That's that's it. Like, I'm I'm done with that. And now my mindset is Clarity Flow will take as long as it will take to become a good little SaaS business. But in the meantime, I have to operate, go back to my roots, and Mhmm. Self fund and bootstrap a new business, and get back on my feet and cobble together an income in the in the early months of 2024 while building a new asset that can grow profitably and sustainably and be something valuable for a long time to come.
Brian Casel:And for me, that's that's audience first. I'm I'm building I'm I'm I'm rebuilding or reviving the audience game in 2024 with this thing that I'm calling instrumental products. So Mhmm. That's that's
Jordan Gal:the And and that gives Clarity Flow the time and space Yeah. To continue growing.
Brian Casel:Yeah. That And, like, people have been and and as I try to explain it to some people, like, they're they're like, well, how does that help you sell more customers on Clarity Flow? Well, like, I I really these are just two separate businesses. I I have a portfolio that includes two businesses, Clarity Flow and Instrumental Products, and that's how I'm operating going forward. And, you know, I talked about, like, that stair step thing.
Brian Casel:I'm I'm sort of now back in the position of a typical bootstrapper who has to balance consulting or a day job with their SaaS on the the nights and weekends. It's not quite nights and weekends. I'm working much more than that on Clarity Flow.
Jordan Gal:But Right. But the math
Brian Casel:But the math the same. But the other difference is that I'm not just resorting to consulting, freelancing, or getting a job. Instead, I'm I still have some space to operate with, and and I still have, you know, I still I I can still maneuver here. And with that space, I'm starting up a new business, a new asset, something that I own that can grow, that can be valuable, and and instead of just selling my time. I I don't wanna resort to that.
Brian Casel:And and I and that and and so now my mindset for 2024 is, like, get back on my feet, reassemble the profitable self funded thing, and just get back on the on the staircase, if you will.
Jordan Gal:I I think what you just described in the journey from going, I'm all in. This is exactly what I'm doing. And getting to a place and being comfortable on altering that strategy. I think that will hit home with everyone listening. Because you're either in the middle of that arc, or you have experienced it in the past.
Jordan Gal:And it is really hard to know when to make the switch, and it is this ongoing conversation. And then being straightforward with yourself and and optimistic sometimes, and then balancing and getting to the right conclusion. I mean, if I look, I I and it's impossible to know if it's right. And you'll always gonna have regrets. I look back and I have no doubt that I didn't do the optimal thing multiple places along the way.
Jordan Gal:Yep. Even like, if I think about like, Cardhook, like, sometimes I think back, like, I could've just kept it. Yeah. I could've just kept going.
Brian Casel:I could've done the same with audience ops and product ties. I you know, those are businesses that were that made me a a very nice financial income for multiple years there, and I sold them off. And and and I and and that was, like, a big bet that I made in in 2021. It was, like, let's go all in on one thing. And here I am.
Brian Casel:I I kinda I have to sort of backtrack on that bet a little bit. You know?
Jordan Gal:I I I hear Yeah.
Brian Casel:But I I also look back on I you know, one friend asked, like, well, maybe you can look back on some of these strategic decisions and see where you what you can learn from them. And I've done a lot a lot of that, but I also like, in the in the Zip message to Clarity Flow business, there were multiple big strategic changes, obviously. Like, you know, going to freemium, and then turning off freemium, and then niching down to coaches, and then changing the name to Clarity Flow, and raising the prices. Like, these were all big moves that that we made. And even early on, like, the the decision to sell my businesses, the the decision to take a little bit of funding.
Brian Casel:And I don't really regret any of those, to be honest. I I think that all of those decisions, if I look back on them, I remember the reasoning that I had. I remember the Yeah. You I remember the information that I had on my plate that I considered. And I think given the given the information I had, I I think I made the right choice in all of those.
Brian Casel:But here I am three years later, and it it didn't pan out the way that I had hoped. But Yes. But that that's just how how it went. Like, like, I I can't really change that at this point, you know?
Jordan Gal:No. No. It's it's it's not it's not regret. It's something else. It's just like you're just looking back at your old self being like, nah.
Jordan Gal:If if you only knew
Brian Casel:Yeah. You you would
Jordan Gal:have done x and y, but okay. Here we are. Yep. Yeah. 2024, you know, I I I have found it interesting that I'm usually very optimistic as like my default.
Jordan Gal:And I mean, it's definitely has something to do with like, you know, war and a lot of bad stuff happening that I found myself more pessimistic lately. But Rock has been extremely helpful in in helping introduce optimism with more objective points. Mhmm. Because because a lot of it's emotional and your state of mind and whether that that impacts how you look out into the world, whether it's, you know, optimistic or not. So it is helpful to come back and effectively, like, list out the reasons why you were optimistic a month ago that you're just not thinking about right now Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Or not idea or you're not admitting or it's not top of mind or whatever.
Brian Casel:Again, I I've been solo in all my businesses, so I'm I'm always kinda curious what the dynamic is actually like between cofounders.
Jordan Gal:Okay.
Brian Casel:Like, do do you have I know, obviously, you talk about, like, the product and you talk about, like, whatever current strategy you're currently working on. There there's, like, there's, like, work related things that you that, of course, you talk about. Mhmm. But do you also have I mean, at the cofounder level, not not even, like, other anyone else who is not, like, an equity cofounder. So, like, so just the cofounder level, are you talking, like, in, like, mastermind style, like, I don't know, like like, optimism, pessimism, like, what if this or that happens?
Brian Casel:I don't know.
Jordan Gal:It is it is a a rolling ongoing conversation, and it it moves back and forth between asynchronous and then in person. So Rock and I have a weekly call on Tuesdays for half an hour, Basically, to see each other.
Brian Casel:Yep.
Jordan Gal:And be like, how you doing? What's your what's your week like? What are working on? Anything important you wanna talk about?
Brian Casel:That sort of thing. But you're still talking, like, daily but async.
Jordan Gal:We're talking daily. Yes. And and we're talking, have a great weekend. Sending me pictures of the pizza he's making with his family or or a new video of his kid riding a bike. So there's a lot of like love mixed in.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:And that feels really important because that builds up the trust. I mean, you know, Rock has seen me go through I've seen Rock go through hard times and I kind of get this sense, even though we're not seeing each other, on where he is and what he needs. And he gets the same. You know, he has seen me struggle over the past two months and has still been able to say, hey. Don't go dark on
Nathan Barry:me. Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:You know, don't go pessimistic. It's gonna be okay. So all that ongoing relationship building allows us to jump in very, very quickly into into business related stuff, and we have learned over time how the other person operates. For example, yesterday, I pinged him with a somewhat crazy idea. Not completely crazy, but he knows that's part of my
Brian Casel:That's the process.
Jordan Gal:Thinking and yes. This this is, hey, I I got this weird Gotta get out. Yeah. Right. What if we did this?
Jordan Gal:And he's like, well, that sounds like a different product. Yeah. But I'm not gonna shoot you down right now.
Brian Casel:Yep.
Jordan Gal:We're gonna let it marinate and we'll talk about it on Tuesday. And by the time Tuesday comes around, I might be like, that was just a silly thing. Don't worry about Or we might go deeper in. So it it dips in and out on asynchronous and synchronous and
Brian Casel:That's cool.
Jordan Gal:I mean Where we where where we where we really line up is we have a lot of similarities and we have nothing to do with each other. You know, like like Israeli guy living in The US and then Slovenia guy. But what we have found is that at the core, we want the exact same thing. We are hungry and ambitious to the point of desperation. We want it so bad.
Jordan Gal:He's a kid from Slovenia from like a farm town, and he knows what the world is like now, and he knows what success looks like, and he wants it.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:And I'm same thing. Born on a freaking kibbutz and so we both are so hungry in the same direction. Yeah. We always have that as our common North Star. Where we're like, we're not gonna fucking fail.
Jordan Gal:We're not gonna we're just gonna do it. We're just gonna figure it out. We're gonna do it. That's how we've always done it. We're not gonna fail.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Yeah. That that part of it is so deeply in common.
Brian Casel:It's a it's a beautiful thing, especially, you know, you you know it you know it's like a golden partnership when you see when you see cofounders start a second company together. You know, you guys went from card hook to like, you you didn't have to start Rally together. Right? Like Yeah.
Jordan Gal:I I I think we would do a third.
Brian Casel:I'm sure you would. You know? Like, that that I mean, of course, like, you know, it's like that that's when you know you you've really got something, I think. And and, again, like, I I have friends who have incredible business partnerships that I'm and and I came really close to partnering up with a couple of different people a few different times in my career. And and I think those would've those are still people that I'm friends with, of course, and and and I think would've turned into really great partnerships.
Brian Casel:But for different circumstances, just didn't align in terms of, like, timing or the product wasn't right or, you know, this or that. And, like, that's the hardest thing about partnerships is that, like, you can't just say, like, if if you are solo, you can't just go out into the market and say, I'm a developer. I need to find a business person as my partner. Or I'm a business guy, growl, and I need to find a a technical partner. And then partner up, and we'll be great.
Brian Casel:Like, there's so much more that you need to be lucky with to to you know, in terms of, like, life circumstances, chemistry, you know, relationship, and skill match. Yeah. You know?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Yeah. And the longevity of the of the relationship is is a challenge, and it's especially challenging if the business doesn't just work
Brian Casel:Yes.
Jordan Gal:Early on. Yep. Because the that's that is understandably where people look around and say, is this where I should be spending my time? Is this who I should be spending my time with? Should I can I be doing something better?
Jordan Gal:Mhmm.
Brian Casel:Yeah. What else are we thinking about in terms of and I'm totally unprepared for this question. But Oh, whatever. The industry at large or the world, you know, I don't Mhmm. Between, like, AI and, I guess, maybe the economy or, like, SaaS or different products in general.
Brian Casel:What what kind of trends are we thinking about for 2024?
Jordan Gal:So, you know, I don't know if you listened to All In recently.
Brian Casel:I catch it a little bit on YouTube here and there.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. It's it's entertaining. It's fun. David Sachs at Kraft Ventures is pretty dialed in to SaaS world. Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:And what what he what he was showing is what I have a general sense of that things are not like amazing. But they're no longer just drifting downward and valuations are horrible and no deals are getting done. It it does feel like it's still a difficult environment, but that there are causes for optimism. 2024 is is complicated. It's an election year.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:And oftentimes, that goes along with the Fed and the government kinda not wanting things to go downhill too much. Yep. And you've got you've got people I think are hesitant to spend money. So it's not like this nothing's easy is is my take on it. So if you're in SaaS, people are aware of how much you're spending on your product.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:And and and I see it in the timeline. I see it ecommerce. I see it all over the place. People are looking for alternatives that are cheaper. People are a little frustrated with tools that get too expensive.
Jordan Gal:So that part of it is not
Brian Casel:I tend to think I'm sure this is just reducing it too much, but I tend to think that, like, SaaS businesses like yours that are heavily connected to ecommerce are much more impacted by the economy at large than most other categories of SaaS. And, like yeah. Mhmm. Like like a like a typical, like, CRM software or a messaging software or or I don't know. Whatever else.
Brian Casel:Like, businesses always need that stuff. Or and maybe you break it down by, are you selling to small business? Are you selling to midsize businesses or enterprise? Are you selling to prosumers or consumers? Like, I almost never think about how the economy is impacting my MRR graph.
Brian Casel:I just never think about it. I it's not something I'm ever concerned with, for better or worse. I just don't see I I just don't see it impact. We have we have good months when the economy is doing terrible. We have bad months when the economy is doing great.
Brian Casel:Like, it just I I've seen it both ways. I don't know.
Jordan Gal:For for us, it's the b to b to c thing. Right? Our customers are directly impacted by consumer spending.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:So so that's just a factor Yeah. In in ecommerce that that ends up impacting it.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I I don't know.
Brian Casel:I one thought that I keep coming back to, especially this year, I feel I feel like there's some truth to this, is that, like, everything is harder for for the startup SaaS product business. Everything is harder. There there are some things I I would say on the product building side that are easier. A lot of tooling and libraries and and resources and more and more developers and people getting into development and no code solutions. And, like, there's a lot of things that you can easily build and ship.
Brian Casel:The marketing side, the go to market, the distribution. If you don't have I I guess I'd put it this way. If if you are not from the get go of of a new SaaS startup, if you are not tapped in to some distribution channel, some connection, some unfair advantage, whether you have a huge audience or whether you are in some distribution channel or you have some inroad somewhere, it's just such an uphill battle to go from zero to whatever you need to get to profitable, you know. No matter how good the product is, no matter how well it fits a market, like you like, I cold email outreach can sometimes work, but it's extremely noisy. Ads are ex are ex out of reach for most start up businesses and don't even work nearly as well as they used to.
Brian Casel:Yep. And and then SEO, like, yeah, we get a lot of customers from Google, but but everything is changing with with search engines. Who even use search who even uses Google anymore, honestly? Like, I never use Preach. I never I never personally use it anymore.
Jordan Gal:Like Every channel is is upside down. Yeah. It and the competition is so severe. I don't know what the answer to it is. My answer to it historically has been uniqueness and a compelling enough product that you can't really get anywhere else.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I think that the the dark side of that question is, like, competition is, like, through the roof. Every single category is competitive. Every single one.
Jordan Gal:Yeah.
Brian Casel:You know?
Jordan Gal:Yes. And and and there's always factors inside of your market whether one of your competitors is public and has infinite money, or the other one raised so much money from VC. We have we have one, not our main competitor, Bolt. Another one, they've raised like $50,000,000. They still don't have it's like four years in.
Jordan Gal:They still don't have a product.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:And they're like hiring salespeople. You're like, what what is happening over there? And it just changes the nature of our market. And everyone's got these weird issues in their markets.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:I don't know if the answer to that is build an audience that feels like at least something that's that's relatively in your control.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I I like, I'm I'm going in that direction for this instrumental products brand. Mhmm. But that's that's what I'm building as, like, a media brand. I don't I don't see the audience thing as being a good solution to market as SaaS.
Jordan Gal:Right. If you're selling If you have an
Brian Casel:audience, like, you have a huge audience, and then you build a SaaS to serve your audience, the all power to you. You're you're off to the races. It's gonna be awesome. Yes. Easy out of the gate.
Brian Casel:Of course, it's not a long term growth strategy, but, like, you you will easily get to profitability pretty quick if you start with a huge audience. But if you if you're a SaaS, I would not and and you don't have an audience, I would not say like, oh, I'm gonna build an audience personally, so that I can market my existing staff. I just don't see that working. You know?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I mean, the thing the most attractive things on the Internet right now are media. It's just like Hollywood celebrity dynamics Mhmm.
Pippin Williamson:But on the Internet.
Jordan Gal:And that that's who's making what appears to be easy money, but we're looking at the very tip tip top of that media pyramid.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:And literally people that we all know and recognize their names. It's lit. It's like celebrities in Hollywood just on the Internet. That's that's a bad thing to chase in in my opinion.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I mean, personally, the again, getting back into what I'm looking ahead for for 2024, when I if if my goal is to get back on track in terms of, like, generating an income and building an asset, I one option was to try to build another SaaS, and I immediately threw that option out because that's not a fast way to to to to solve that problem. The the fastest way and also the most attractive to me, like, creatively is is to build a content media business. And the more that I learn about YouTube especially, the more viable that is. It's certainly not easy, and it's not super fast, but there is a direct path.
Brian Casel:And I could see it with everyday people who are doing exceptionally well on YouTube with audience growth. And that's but that's not to sell a SaaS. That's to revenue wise, you can get into sponsorships, you can get into courses, community. Yeah. Things like that.
Brian Casel:And
Jordan Gal:model is like.
Brian Casel:And that that's where I would think that that business model is.
Jordan Gal:The the people who you look at there and you are, like, naturally envious of their model, like, what what is that model?
Brian Casel:I think it's it's now it's become known as, like, the creator business. The create Okay. And yeah.
Jordan Gal:So Is it does it lend itself more to sponsorships to
Brian Casel:There's multiple there's multiple revenue. So I would say the most alright. The the most common way that this type of business is modeled out is at the top of the funnel, you have a large and growing audience. And that's very commonly a YouTube channel and or an email newsletter. No.
Brian Casel:Sorry. The in terms of top of funnel, you've got YouTube channels are very popular. Some people build a huge audience on, like, TikTok or or not TikTok, Twitter. A little Yeah. There's also TikTok and stuff, but like talk about.
Brian Casel:YouTube is a big one. Twit Twitter audience, maybe LinkedIn audience, that funnels into an email newsletter. So right there, you've got, like, thousands of subscribers tuning into your content and tuning into your email newsletter. From there, your revenue options are sponsorship. Meaning, I would say, you could just do direct monetization with YouTube, but that's, like, the least interesting and probably the least revenue
Jordan Gal:Right. Option. You have to get some big numbers.
Brian Casel:The more interesting thing on the sponsorship side is direct sponsorship with brands. And you don't and depending on which industry or space that you're in, you don't even need a massive audience to start to reap the revenue rewards of that.
Jordan Gal:Right. Especially if your audience is a valuable
Brian Casel:Yeah. High end audience. Like, if your audience are developers or businesses or startups or or some anything in, the financial space, you could have just 10,000 YouTube subscribers and start to have thousand dollar sponsorship deals, multi thousand dollars. You know, like, so so that that's that's one immediate thing. And then, not immediate, but, like, in the not too distant future.
Brian Casel:And but then the other the other obvious ones are, like, sell courses or sell a membership or sell some combination of both. And I and that's also where you see these creator brands, like, making a ton of money, to be honest.
Jordan Gal:Mhmm.
Brian Casel:You know? Yep. Yep. It's it's hard to do it well, I would say. Like, anyone can make a garbage course on some on some thing that they're either not even that passionate about or don't know a lot about.
Brian Casel:But I think the key is to connect with the audience in a in a certain journey. So, like, I I identify that this large market of people in the in the in the world or in this space all aspire to go from a to b. And everything about my channel and my content and my newsletter is aimed at helping you go from A to B. And there are lots more of people like you. And not only would you buy a course to help with that, but you wanna join a community to connect with other people who are on that same journey from a to b.
Brian Casel:And and I'm here to to bring bring us all together in a in a little community. And and there are, like, thousands of of these creator led, like, communities kinda sprouting up, even even in the same competing spaces, like, all over the Internet, especially on YouTube. Big Internet. Yeah. And and, like, and then that and then you see guys, like, and gals making hundreds of thousands, sometimes over 1,000,000 a year on a team of, like, three people, four people.
Jordan Gal:You know? That's that leverage we've talked about. Yeah. It's it's super interesting because I
Brian Casel:I I don't I don't wanna, like, paint the picture like, oh, this is the easiest, like, get rich quick garbage. But, like, but I I see it again and again and again. Like, there is this model out there. You know?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I the the creators that I'm most attracted to because of my actual interest is cooking. Yeah. And I'm fascinated by how these creator businesses get started. And the content that they create, the amount of work that they put into these ninety second videos on how to cook this particular dish.
Brian Casel:Yeah. It's unbelievable. But
Jordan Gal:it's it's amazing the actual end product that they're putting out there. The level of of actual output is amazing. It's amazing. Yeah. But then you connect that to being able to build now in cooking, it's more consumer.
Jordan Gal:Yes. And so I assume it's great for creative outlet and for people who love that and maybe already have that skill, but you're not you're not helping people on a professional level. It's almost like b to c versus
Brian Casel:Dude, but but those people are probably making a lot of money. It like,
Jordan Gal:The the top ones, yes.
Brian Casel:So my my wife is super into into plants. Like, she's really, really into collecting exotic, a lot of tropical plants. We have actually, like, hundreds of plants around our house.
Jordan Gal:No way.
Brian Casel:No way. It's incredible. Yeah. That that room over there is is we we have a lot of them. And she tunes into a lot of plant YouTube.
Brian Casel:There it's a whole it's a whole space on YouTube. Yeah. Every and I and I peek in, and I'm like and at the channels that she's tuning into, and a lot of them are just, like, showing their plants and and this but they have, like, hundreds of thousands of subscribers on YouTube. And Yeah. And and I and I'm saying, like, like, even though that's, like, a consumer interest, like, those YouTubers are definitely making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on sponsorships, on YouTube monetization.
Brian Casel:Some of them have ecommerce stores where they're selling plants and stuff like that.
Jordan Gal:Right. That they're pointing traffic toward.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:It feels like an evolution from back in the day when Facebook groups got people together over specific topics, and then advertisers paid Facebook anything to just get access to a group of people who have identified themselves as inter as interested in something relatively niche.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:It is the same concept as my original ecommerce business that a solar light store would do better than a general lighting store because you were capturing an audience that was really interested specifically in solar lights for their yard. Yep. And Google AdWords allows you to do it. Then Facebook groups allows you to do it, and now it's like YouTube channels
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:A light something similar. Totally.
Brian Casel:And I so, like, I'm really going down the rabbit hole of, like, the on YouTube, like, like, the learn to code niches, the building products niches. That that's where I tend to focus my energy for this instrumental products brand. And I'm still
Jordan Gal:So 's your a to b, like launching a product over?
Brian Casel:Or Yeah. I'm starting right now, my project is, like, really trying to dial in what the audience focus is. And I think that's gonna be helping you build and ship products and helping you transition to a products based business from consulting or from a job or something like that. So I think there's gonna be a lot of, like, teaching you how to build and ship products. But I'm still exploring.
Brian Casel:And then and then it's also, like, a question of, like, doing search based topics, like people searching for tips on rails and whatever else versus, like, interest based topics. And that's where, like, YouTube's algorithm comes in. It's like, we know that these people are interested in this, so give them, like, inspirating inspirational, motivating, helpful content. Not necessarily, like, keyword stuff, but more like just create quality stuff that that they'll get served on their YouTube homepage. You know?
Brian Casel:Cool. It's I've got I love I've like a crazy, like, lighting setup and camera thing over here, and I've been trying to figure out my whole video production workflow, not really knowing what I'm doing here, and I'm just trying to learn and put the pieces together and get into it.
Jordan Gal:Cool. I'm excited to learn more. It's cool. But you know what it is now? It's Friday.
Brian Casel:It is.
Jordan Gal:It is. It's it's real close to have a drink time for you.
Brian Casel:It sure is. I'm I don't know
Jordan Gal:what I'm doing. Oh. Oh, I got I got a whole bunch of like Hanukkah. It's called they're called sufganiyot. They're the donuts for Hanukkah.
Brian Casel:Oh. That sounds good.
Jordan Gal:That's the night.
Brian Casel:Both my girls are in local basketball leagues, so now my Saturdays are gonna be, like, back to back seven and nine year old basketball games. Okay.
Jordan Gal:Those are not pretty games of basketball.
Brian Casel:Oh, we're talking travels, double dribbles. Yeah. No. We we don't call those in this league. Yep.
Brian Casel:Yep.
Jordan Gal:My seven year old does also. I'm always baffled by the parents who are super aggressive and yelling at them like, god. This is
Brian Casel:we're just trying to find They don't know what a three second violation is. Let's just let them play. You know?
Jordan Gal:Exactly. Yep. And and my youngest daughter is in Matilda in a play on Monday. So
Brian Casel:we've got some
Jordan Gal:fun stuff coming up. You staying you staying around
Brian Casel:for the holidays
Jordan Gal:in Connecticut or
Brian Casel:you travel? Pretty much. Yeah. We'll probably go to my mom's place, and then we're doing, like, a three day ski trip in between Christmas and New Year's, which is probably the worst week to go to a ski mountain, but we're doing it anyway.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. Well, I'm I'm excited. We're going to the nation's Capital, baby.
Jordan Gal:Washington DC.
Brian Casel:That's awesome, man. I always I always like going to DC. Me too. Walking around. Cool too.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Yep. We'll see what museums to bring the kids to or the funds up. It's cold, so you know Yeah. You need indoor indoor things. Alright, brother.
Jordan Gal:Alright. It's great to see you. Thanks, everyone. Okay, folks.
