What would a young Jordan and Brian say?
Two years two years. Two two weeks away from the end of the year 2023. It's December 15. Jordan, it's our end of the year episode. I'm pretty good.
Brian Casel:How are
Jordan Gal:doing, buddy? It's Friday, and we we are officially closed, the company, between now and New Year's.
Brian Casel:Oh. Yeah. Yeah. So Really? What what does that mean to be closed?
Brian Casel:Yes. I don't I don't
Jordan Gal:know what it means.
Brian Casel:For for
Jordan Gal:a class of one. What it means is Black Friday, Cyber Monday is super intense. Development, onboarding merchants, launching, keeping track. There's just a lot
Brian Casel:of
Jordan Gal:intensity required around DevOps development. Then we go into code freeze and we come out of code freeze. We, you know, throw more stuff in. We deploy it. And and this is like the reward that we have figured out makes sense for us in this e commerce context.
Jordan Gal:Because between now and the end of the year, no no one's talking to us. No one's answering emails. Sure. So it feels like a really really good opportunity to give an extended break in in a startup environment that's generally pretty intense.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I I mean, like, okay. So how how do you act like Yeah. What happens with, customer support and who's actually Yeah. Who's Yeah.
Brian Casel:Who's kinda covering
Jordan Gal:the Yeah. So there's just
Brian Casel:lights on.
Jordan Gal:Some people are able to fully unplug and some people are not. Right? So our DevOps engineers, customer success and support, that that type of thing, you have to keep an eye and you take turns. So you keep coverage so that you do get a break.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Little bit lighter load
Jordan Gal:next week, you know, it's off and there aren't any standing meetings. But I have a few calls next week. And some of the people on the team are like, okay, like, let's just touch base next week because it makes sense to. It's just like an unplugging. And then the week after that is totally like, you know
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Go away. Go hang with your families type of thing. Yeah. So I this am is like the last thing I'm doing this week. And then I'm off until January.
Jordan Gal:I am gonna redo the website. Oh,
Brian Casel:so you're not
Jordan Gal:breaking. It feels very different. My desk is a hot mess. I have a an embarrassing stack of of mail. I'm gonna show it to Brian.
Jordan Gal:Right? This is like the immediate stuff that needs to be addressed that's on my desk. I'm gonna talk about stuff.
Brian Casel:All the paper mail that comes into my life, I literally stays on the desk and I don't open it for
Jordan Gal:sometimes it's it's it's
Brian Casel:a month or two. Yes. I just I just don't even want
Jordan Gal:to pill for like a $114. I'm like, you're on you're ninety days late. I'm like, sorry guys. I'm not I'm not a jerk. I just I just don't care.
Jordan Gal:And I haven't opened it. My bad.
Brian Casel:My philosophy is like, alright. You you can send me a letter, but you'll you'll probably need to send me like multiple emails and text messages and calls to get my attention Yes.
Jordan Gal:To actually care. Which is frustrating for everyone involved.
Brian Casel:And and it's like if it's that important, that's what they'll do and that's fine.
Jordan Gal:It's terrible. Yeah.
Brian Casel:Yeah. It's terrible.
Jordan Gal:So I'm looking forward to catching up on a lot of that stuff and some personal stuff. And I'm texting some friends in town to say, hey, let's go to lunch next week. Let's so I'm starting to turn the corner toward family, fun, relaxing, less stress. Yes. But we Okay.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. That Yeah. I'm I wanna talk about an interesting development on the business front.
Brian Casel:Okay. Yeah. I mean, kinda similar idea. I so the week of the holidays, you know, Christmas into New Year's, in between those, we're going away for three days. Got an Airbnb in Northern Vermont, so that that will be pretty much an off week with the family doing some skiing.
Brian Casel:But, yeah, this week, like, we are days away from finally pushing out Clarity Flow Commerce. It's it's like we've built it all. It's in the final testing now. Today's Friday, so we're not gonna deploy it today. We're gonna deploy it on either Monday or Tuesday of next week.
Brian Casel:And I need to and now I need to do like the grind of of launching this. And it's a huge feature to launch, so I've gotta write a ton of documentation. I gotta write a big email announcement. I gotta record multiple product videos for this thing. It's gonna be a grind, but I gotta get it out before the holidays.
Brian Casel:It's it's already, like, three months past when I wanted it to ship. It it's it's just been such a beast to to build. There's so many little facets to it.
Jordan Gal:You're you're close.
Brian Casel:I mean, it's done. It's in the final testing. We're we're just kinda polishing it up and and then I it's now it's on it's almost on me to just do the launch stuff. And, you know, the to the other thing in my work life here is, as as I've been talking about over the last couple of months and, like, transitioning into 2024 with, like, changing focus in in my business and getting into this, like building this media brand, instrumental products, still very much coming together. And the way that I mentally think about it, this isn't exactly how it works, but I actually kinda think about it like I'm changing jobs.
Brian Casel:Like I'm like I'm leaving one company and and joining another company in a way that they're
Jordan Gal:all like at us, like, in January, I start my new job?
Brian Casel:Yeah. I mean, I was I I've been hoping that that date would be in December, but I think it's probably gonna be after that trip. And literally, like, it's it's gonna mean, like, starting the weekly content production cycle of video recording and production and writing newsletters and and the audience game, you know, like, really starting that up. And and I've been I've I've redone my whole studio, been been doing all this work with with equipment and testing shots and things like that. It's been fun to put it all together and test it out, and I'm learning a ton about production and content strategy and relearning a lot of stuff.
Brian Casel:And But I haven't been able to put it into action yet because I've been so busy on Clarity Flow and getting this final commerce feature out the door. So once that's finished, there's some like infrastructure projects that my team is gonna be working on, but like basically, like my big focus on Clarity Flow is done for a while and then it goes into that more of a side business mode and I start to really turn my attention to to building this audience game. So that's that's where my Okay. Eyesight is is pointing towards the
Jordan Gal:last couple of similar in that I I look at this rest, and then I look at January as, like, a sprint. Six months between now between January and June, that's our selling season. That's when merchants are open to new ideas. They're looking at new things. They're exploring.
Jordan Gal:And we have a bunch of meetings set up in January that at least it's feels good to have it confirmed that the interest and demand is there, but people are looking at January in the similar way that I am. And they're saying, alright. I'll get to that in January. Right now I'm just gonna finish what I need to finish. I'm not gonna start anything new.
Jordan Gal:Yeah.
Brian Casel:Mhmm. What was that thing
Jordan Gal:you I'm just I'm sure I will be talking about this a lot more. I'm gonna be quiet about it. I'm not gonna give details for at least another month or so is is my assumption because I don't I don't wanna telegraph anything. But we had like a we had like a product breakthrough that gives us the ability to to sell our product a little differently. And the biggest thing that it changes is the nature of our onboarding.
Jordan Gal:And our our onboarding plays a huge role in how we sell the product and how people buy the product. And if you think about our pitch right now, it requires a significant amount of demand to be generated during the interaction with the prospect. Because you you kinda have to bring the demand high enough up that they are able to get over the hurdles of implementation and maybe changing your payment processor and then your fraud protection and then your loyalty program and your all these integrations that are pointed at checkout and you get to talk to your finance team. There's there's a lot to get through, and you need to build up enough momentum in the sales process that'll break through all those potential barriers. And we are Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:We had a breakthrough around our ability to onboard much more easily, and that changes the nature of how the pitch works. Right now the pitch is a promise of ROI, and then you have to get through a lot of these things to get to the ROI. And we have figured out a way to get ROI all the way upfront with with far less work in implementation and that kinda changes the nature of how we can go to market.
Brian Casel:Interesting. I so I know nothing about what you're talking about here, but my mind goes to it's some form of I don't know if you want me to guess it, but but like it it's some form of like hosted version so that like they don't need to kind of build it into their own site yet, but they could still at least test it or run some some portion of their traffic So through you first.
Jordan Gal:It's not exactly that, but it's in that direction. Right? Where where where it does not require them to have a big lift. If you look I think it's actually a good analogy in this case to look at a competitor. If you look at our competitor, BOLT, who just announced another round of layoffs today.
Jordan Gal:So there's there's there's pain.
Brian Casel:Oh, man.
Jordan Gal:What they did is they first offered a checkout, and then they started to offer a a lighter weight version of their product by having the ability to add a their vault of of shoppers to your existing checkout. So that's how they try to go, well, maybe it's easier to sell something that requires a lower lift. So we have never had Mhmm. Something like that in our repertoire. And all of a sudden, we do and then, you know, it just kind of happened.
Jordan Gal:I I I sent a tweet the other day, never underestimate the combination of stupid questions with smart engineering. And I think it's it's obvious to everyone who knows us and listens to this podcast that I'm the stupid questions. I'm I'm not the smart engineering. That's rock. But sometimes that combination of of a of a technically ignorant person coming at it from the customer point of view, combined with an engineer, it's an interesting dynamic that Rock and I've had over time where I come to him and I say, but what why can't we just do x?
Jordan Gal:And he comes back with, well, here's why we can't do x, you idiot. Because that's not how it works. But sometimes that leads
Brian Casel:It's it's always worth asking the question. Be like, oh, really? Why? You know? Like and and what what if what if that was a requirement?
Brian Casel:Like, just to think about it. Like, it's like, what if that were Or what if
Jordan Gal:assumption just went away? Or what would be different about Yep. Things if we assume something totally different than what is true currently? Yeah. I love this question.
Jordan Gal:I we kinda start sharing with the go to market team and everyone's just buzzing. Everyone's just like, oh my god. Now I am going away and I cannot wait to come back in January armed with this new thing.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:So it feels like we're it's a bit of a coincidence but we are we are going off on our break with a lot of excitement. Yep. Yep. Alright, You you went out on Twitter and asked for some suggestions on what to talk about.
Brian Casel:I did. And then I and then I opened up a text doc, and I just started jotting down some deep questions for us to answer. You know, this is that end of the year episode where we usually kinda talk about, like, the our looking back on 2023 and setting our 2024 goals. I don't know. I I I think we're bored of that stuff.
Brian Casel:So let's just talk bigger picture, and I'm thinking more about, like, career level, you know, career time span. Let's look back. Let's look ahead.
Jordan Gal:Oh my god.
Brian Casel:And I I got like what? Like four or questions here.
Jordan Gal:Oh my god.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Well, like yeah. Alright. First question. What do we see as our most significant career milestones to date?
Brian Casel:And we can we can define that however we want. So what do you got?
Jordan Gal:Okay. I got I have two major milestones.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I got two
Jordan Gal:major milestone was leaving employment. I I I started off in finance, in investment banking, and left. And that was step one in going in the direction that I wanted, you know, life and career to go.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I guess that's that's one for me too, but I I wasn't really counting that one.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I mean, if it's it's a long time ago, but I think that's kind of, you know yeah. I think that's more significant than the individual accomplishments and revenue levels and whatever else.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:Because it just puts you into it's just
Brian Casel:a very
Jordan Gal:different life.
Brian Casel:I think I I mean, you know, you and I started in very different industries. You and the finance industry. I I started my career actually, I started in the music recording industry first and then switched into web design, working for a web agency in New York City. But I think what we both have in common with that is correct me if I'm wrong, but, like, you went into the finance industry, like, not expecting to be an entrepreneur. Right?
Brian Casel:Or maybe you were at some point later, but, like, I, like, I was not expecting to I wasn't thinking, like, I'm gonna be here for a couple years and then I'm gonna leave as soon as possible to start a business. Like, it it sort of occurred to me a little bit later.
Jordan Gal:I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur, and what I wanted out of the finance industry was to build base, a a nest egg, a little something to to go off and and I didn't have the patience. I hated it so much. I couldn't wait the three, four, five years. I like
Brian Casel:Oh, okay.
Jordan Gal:It was it was I thought I could handle the trade off. I knew the trade off was you give us basically all of your waking hours and we will give you a a base of money to work from. I thought when
Brian Casel:I was that age I
Jordan Gal:couldn't do it.
Brian Casel:I just wasn't thinking that long term at all. I was just like this is a career that I'm interested in, web web design. And I got I started working in the in industry. And it wasn't until I was in that job that it started to even occur to me that I could go out and do this on my own as a freelance consultant. And then it wasn't even until then, like, once I was out on my own that it even occurred to me that I can do, like, digital products on the Internet.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Know? Yeah. And it's weird. But anyway, so That that's for me too like that.
Brian Casel:And I I often look back on that time because I left in January 2008. And I really owe I I constantly talk about this. But, like, if I had waited a year or less than a year later, the the the economic crash would have happened, and I would have held on to that job for dear life. Mhmm. And I don't know if I ever would have left after that.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I mean, looking back, I I I kinda think I made a mistake. I I should have had more patience. It would have made a lot of things a lot easier to effectively start off my entrepreneurial career with hundreds of thousands of dollars saved up, which I could have done if I just stuck around for few years.
Brian Casel:Don't yeah.
Jordan Gal:Might Good hindsight.
Brian Casel:You might feel that way. I I feel like that's like that early nest egg is not as valuable as the experience, early experience of an entrepreneur in my experience.
Jordan Gal:I mean the mistake I made was when I left, I should have left to go get more entrepreneurial experience. I should have left to go work for a small Yes. And see what it like. I didn't. I left to go work with my with my family business.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. And I knew that business. I had worked in that business in high school and we grew it and we made money. But it did not create a network of like minded ambitious people in an industry that I was interested in that then sets the stage for partnerships and networking and unfair advantages and opportunities that you come across that ideally I should have done in in my twenties. And and for me that leads to the second most important milestone is then leaving the family business and saying, okay.
Jordan Gal:Let let me let me let me go beyond the e myth immigrant entrepreneur mindset of we do the work and we hesitate to hire people to do the work for us because that limitation is like that's the curse. Mhmm. The curse of American entrepreneurship is to get stuck into a scenario where you love making flower arrangements, so you start a company that makes flower arrangements and then you create a job for yourself and there is nothing wrong with that. But if you don't realize that you're getting into it and that's not actually what you want, then you can get stuck.
Brian Casel:Yep. For sure.
Jordan Gal:Yes. So that for me the single most important accomplishment or milestone of all was leaving and then you know floating in space and then all the risk that goes with it and all the opportunity that goes with it.
Brian Casel:Yeah. For sure. I think my two of my my two big milestones, like, after I was out on my own as a as an entrepreneur. The first one I wrote down was actually selling Restaurant Engine, which was the first time I sold and exited a business. And it was not the largest exit, like, not even close.
Brian Casel:I had other other ones that came after that that were larger in terms of exits. But the first one, that first one which happened for me in 2015 was the most significant because it it at the time like, it was like a low 6 figure exit. At the time, that was like the biggest win of my career, but it was the biggest learning experience of of seeing like, hey, I bootstrapped and built this
Jordan Gal:Mhmm.
Brian Casel:And someone else bought it. And the whole process of selling was was a was a learning process, but also just seeing what was actually valuable that I managed to build that someone else found value in because that influenced every single thing that I worked on from that point forward. And like I it it completely changed the way that I even think about starting and building and operating things. Because everything after that like, because there there are a lot of, like, messy things in Restaurant Engine Yeah. That I that and and I still managed to be able to sell it.
Brian Casel:But everything after that was like, you know, you can look at like the the little things like how you keep the books and things like that. But but I it's more what I'm talking about more is like, how am I actually assembling something of value here? You know? Like because later on, I I went on to obviously build Audience Ops and sell that, and I built a, you know, process kit I sold that was a little sass. And then actually my productized course and community, that that entity, that website and course and everything, I I also sold that business to someone else for a little exit.
Brian Casel:And so like even now when I start to plan out this thing, instrumental products, like yes, it's gonna be like me on camera and a lot of content and not something that I'm looking to build and sell very quickly. It's more of a longer term thing. But I'm still thinking about it like, alright, what does the operation look like? What's the brand look like? How does this eventually have a pathway to a valuable asset?
Brian Casel:Yeah. As that's Yeah.
Jordan Gal:As we're as we're talking about this, the an another milestone came to mind. It was more of a mental milestone for me. And at some point, I think a lot of us with with a it depends on your nature. But I know I can speak for myself that I operate with a decent amount of guilt and comparing myself to others and envy and all that stuff.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:And at some point during the Kartak experience, I was able to more objectively look around and finally say, hey. There are 20 people working for this company. They love their jobs. This thing's making millions of dollars. I think I can ease up on the self criticism.
Jordan Gal:Mhmm. I think I I maybe maybe stop comparing, stop feeling guilty that you're not the most disciplined and organized. Like, whatever you will whatever your mix of stuff is, some of it you're good enough at that you've created this thing, and you should stop feeling guilty for the stuff that is your shortcomings. And that has brought an amazing amount of peace over the last few years of just just shedding the weight of the guilt and comparison and that Yeah. That's like poison.
Jordan Gal:I I am not proud of the fact that it required objective proof. It required Mhmm. Millions of dollars in red. The only thing that actually convinced me was not myself having the wisdom. It was this objective, hey, idiot.
Jordan Gal:Just look at the goddamn financials and and I
Brian Casel:feel this this is actually gonna get into the second question which is more about our challenges, but it's it's weird. I I sort of had the same sort of experience, but a little bit backwards. I was I I I think I had a a higher confidence level a few years back than I do even now in in the more recent years because I I think I put a lot more pressure on myself as I get older and more of that comparison to peers and things like that as as we get get further along. Just real quick to wrap up the first one. Like, the other one the other big one for me was was learning the full stack web development.
Brian Casel:I started my career as a front end designer but like in 2018, I spent that year like the the decision to invest that year for myself to go from just designer and marketer bootstrapper person to full stack designer and developer to be able to build anything, that was such a massive milestone for me. I'm still I'm always learning on on the technical side. But the I've I've built multiple software products since then, and it it has just completely opened up my world of not a, I absolutely love it. Like, I love the craft of designing and developing user experiences and interfaces. Like, I really love being in it on on all levels, from the design, the architecture, the customers, all of it.
Brian Casel:But it also opened up my entire world view of business in a in a way. Because before that, I I even having sold a couple of businesses and the productized services and stuff, I still had the service mindset of how do we help clients? What can we do for them? And becoming a product person opens your eyes to like how to what makes this a product?
Jordan Gal:Mhmm.
Brian Casel:You know, not a service. Yeah. That that that leverage
Jordan Gal:the leverage inherent in a scalable product to be sold as opposed to very incremental Yep. Services.
Brian Casel:Alright. Next question. What were our most challenging times to date or phases or whatever you might wanna point to? I'll I'll kick that off real quick. So it's like
Jordan Gal:It's not pretty. Yeah. I know.
Brian Casel:I Oh. I'll I'll try to breeze through. I've got two here. One was just the year in 2013, a while back now. I I just remember that was a I was working on Restaurant Engine.
Brian Casel:It was probably a year or two away from when I sold it, and I was I I was working on multiple things, and I was involved in multiple ventures. Some things were starting to find a little bit of success. This was before I started the productized course, before I started audience ops and all that. But I was just too it it it was too much going on and not enough income, like struggling financially, having this little SaaS business and doing freelance work and doing this partnership over here and writing this ebook over there and doing this and that. And I but I looking back on it, I think the big stress of it was, like, my lack of experience.
Brian Casel:Like, I was involved in a lot of things that that ultimately I was not really even enjoying and and not getting the the rewards. That was one. But then things really improved on all that in the 2015 to 2021 phase when I had audience ops and product ties going. And then the more recent years, like the last three to four years, it is. It's weird because in some ways, these are some of my favorite years.
Brian Casel:Like I said, like I love working on software, and I love how much further along my skill set has become in both product and just entrepreneurship. But at the same time, I have so much more pressure that I probably just put on myself that it makes it some right now, in the last couple of years, some of the most difficult and challenging years. But at at at the same time, it's like that's what we do. We, you know, we make it harder because that's that's what keeps it interesting. Right?
Brian Casel:I don't know. Yeah. At least that's my excuse anyway.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I I hear you. What what the the challenge is that the the score is is very objective. It's very unemotional. And the only way we know how to keep score is money.
Jordan Gal:Yes. And so there is a disconnect between the satisfaction we find and the interest we find in our work and the passion involved and the creativity and the and the rewards outside of money, they are not directly connected to just straight up dollar bills and a a number in an account. Yes. So that that is a weird, weird relationship, and everyone brings their own baggage into it. Yep.
Jordan Gal:That's just that that's just the reality of it because it turn it turns some people see it as a score and a competition and who has more and where they stand. And everyone goes through a filter of what it means to them, what money means to them. If it's material, if it's status, if it's being more attractive to the opposite sex, if it is feeling, you know, mightier than, you know, your peers or whatever that crazy mix is. So everyone kinda suffers through this in their own way.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah. For for sure. Definitely the case for me. It it's less it's much less about it's not at all really about, like, competition with other people, although there's definitely a lot of, like, comparing myself to to others and, you know, just flat out jealousy and all that.
Brian Casel:Like Yeah. Let's be honest. But the but the for me, it is sort of a a game and a score where I'm playing against myself. And that's that that's how I tend to enjoy games and sports is like trying to beat my own score type of thing. Right.
Brian Casel:And and that's how I see it in in business for sure. Like, I wanna beat my you know, whatever next win I get, I I want it to be a bigger win than my last one. Yeah. And and and, you know, there's there's obviously, like, yeah, we wanna live comfortably here with my family and do do nice things. And then and then the other driver, of course, is freedom.
Brian Casel:Like, I I feel like I where where I feel at at at this stage in my career, I I would have liked to achieve a level of freedom that I haven't yet achieved. Yep. And I and a lot of friends have, where it's like, okay. Month to month, year to year needs are fully met financially. Like, don't even have to think about it.
Brian Casel:Now we're just building. Now now we've got, like, total freedom to just keep building bigger and bigger without even having to think about, like, what's happening this year in our finances. You know?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Do do you have a sense of what you want out of that, though? I I
Brian Casel:don't We are much more comfortable than we were, like, ten years ago, but, like Right. But, like, there there's still a sense of, like, I don't know. Like, I I want 2024 to look decent financially, whereas, like, the there's a there's a level that that we wanna achieve where it's like, we're gonna be more than fine every year. And now it's just a question of, like, how what what what's the bigger thing that we're building?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I I I think for me that last bit that you said, like, what are we building? I think that has come into question for me. It's probably directly related to things being hard. So maybe that's a natural reaction.
Jordan Gal:But when I think about what I want, I am not nearly as certain as I used to be. If you asked me five years ago, I would say I wanna build a happy, healthy company that I really enjoy working at. I really enjoy the people I work with. I enjoy the work that we do and the product that we put out and the money that we make and money that it makes me personally. Now there's a little bit the the the exit sign is a little brighter.
Jordan Gal:And what I mean by that exit sign is just unplug from the system and and and just not not played anymore and not build companies and not own things and not have employees. That has become more attractive over the last few years. I'm just, you know what? Maybe if I can just put aside like 10,000,000, maybe I'm done. I don't wanna build anything else.
Jordan Gal:I don't wanna hire anyone else. I don't wanna work with anyone else. I wanna find satisfaction and interest in other things other than offering something of value to the market and requesting money back in exchange for it.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:Mhmm.
Brian Casel:Interesting. I that that I mean, that leads perfectly into this next question because I I'm I'm thinking about a lot about that seems like redefining what success looks like. For for me, I'm absolutely going through an evolution right now as I look into twenty twenty four. But my next question that I wrote down here was what does our ideal work life look like in ten years? We can fudge that number.
Brian Casel:Maybe you call that five years, maybe you call it fifteen years. But Two. Two years. I mean, you know, because lately, I've been thinking a lot about the one year plan, like, what you know? But what you were just saying there about, like, changing what the picture of what's what you're actually building and
Jordan Gal:Yeah.
Brian Casel:And why, what you're building toward, my vision of that has changed, I think, just in the last two or three months. And in in some ways, I think it's more like reverting back to where my where my natural view of success is. Alright. So in the last couple of years, as I was when I sold all my businesses and I was focusing on Zip Message, which turned into into Clarity Flow, the bet that I was making, the the the thing that I was going for was the picture of success that I see with a lot of other peers in our industry, which is build a success a single successful SaaS business, grow a team, get to a point where it's profitable and growing steadily and and it's and it's asset. It's a great business.
Brian Casel:It's creatively fulfilling. Like, I I loved the picture of my friend's businesses who can fly their team of 15 high caliber professional people into a really fun location and having a team retreat. Because because a, that team exists and b, the business exists to support that level 50 k. You can just drop 50 k on an on an awesome team retreat and people love working for your little SaaS company that just those crazy profits every like, that's the dream scenario. And that was that was what I had my sights set on in the last probably, like, five or six years of, you know, go I I was hoping my last SaaS attempts would one of them would would result in that.
Brian Casel:Yep. I think I've come to terms with like, that that picture, like, just might not happen for me. And I I still, of course, own Clarity Flow. I'm still gonna run it and grow it. And it you know, I hope it grows into something.
Brian Casel:But for but for right now, I'm I'm redefining my picture of success to look more like where my gut and intuition tends to point, and it's probably different from most founders in our circles. Like, my mind goes to portfolio of businesses, more creativity, more variety, but still very much focused on building and creating value and selling things to customers. Like, that's always my interest in in owning assets and us and accumulating assets. Of course, right now, I'm not in a position to start to really grow a portfolio. But when I think about, like, my dream scenario ten years from now, like like, the the businesses that I've always been inspired by, and I don't I I wouldn't ever dream of reaching this level of success, but, like, you know, like like like Tiny with Andrew Wilkinson or Awesome Motive, Syed's, like, you know, like building this this kind of portfolio business.
Brian Casel:Like, again, those are like beyond like a dream scenario, but like a smaller version of that, I would be super thrilled to to be, like, own as as as a portfolio owner over over the next decade or so.
Jordan Gal:That that sounds like it would it would satisfy the all all these different pieces. So Yeah. Income at its most basic, but also, like, multiple things, not just one thing.
Brian Casel:Multiple things. Some of them small, some of them bigger, you know, getting into acquiring assets, selling assets, building, creating, hiring small separate distributed teams to run different assets in my portfolio. I I like the sound of that. I mean, for right now, it's basically just me and a couple of people that that work on my small team on stuff. But like, yeah.
Brian Casel:You know, like like the concept of a single product, a single company with with a single team that we just lie away for ten plus years, like that is just probably not the trajectory that I'm on anymore, you know, and
Jordan Gal:I think it's tough to tell. You you you don't know. You just it's just not it's not a direct path from where you are right now. Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:I don't know. I
Brian Casel:Here's maybe a more fun one. Okay. What what's been our favorite cheat code in business? And I just wanna clarify. I feel like every person has some cheat code or what they think of as their their go to advantage, key advantage, or or but thing that that you decided to do that has helped you succeed in some way?
Jordan Gal:Okay.
Brian Casel:I got two.
Jordan Gal:Okay. I think what I mentioned before is an important cheat code. To to be okay with not being great at everything and leaning into the stuff that you're good at and not feeling bad about all the other stuff. I think that that is helpful for everyone to get to. It also makes your life more enjoyable.
Jordan Gal:Focusing on what you're good at. It make makes you happier.
Brian Casel:Yep. Yep. I got one and and it's this podcast and podcasting in general. I think it's people who podcast for this many years, I think there's different types of podcasts out there and stuff, but, like, I don't know about how how you feel about it. For for me, it's it's never been we we don't even have a very large audience on Bootstrap Web.
Jordan Gal:Mhmm.
Brian Casel:Right? It's pretty small, relatively speaking. I haven't even checked the numbers in probably well over a year. But but the the thing the thing that this does, and it's happened year after year for me, is network effects. I'm I'm out there, and a small relatively small group of influential people tend to know who we are because we do this podcast.
Brian Casel:And that makes it easier to DM someone or get an introduction or get invited to speak at a conference or or hire people or sell a business or, you know, this or that. Like, just little different opportunities come about because we've been out here building in public for for this many years. Yeah. It's it's not like a marketing channel that's going to if you podcast x number of episodes, you're going to get this many leads. Like, it's never that.
Brian Casel:And and also podcasting is probably the worst way to actually grow an audience. It's not it's not like a discovery platform. But I'm
Jordan Gal:very pleased you should you should link to your podcast and try the time and talk about it.
Brian Casel:Yeah. But I'm sure you get this. I get this all the time where it's like, I I hop on a call with someone for the first time and they're like, I I feel like I know everything about you, but I know nothing about them because they've been listening to the podcast.
Jordan Gal:I never felt it until you and I started, and then I went to MicroConf after we started. I was like, okay. It is a very different dynamic in a networking environment when someone comes up to you and says, I listen to your podcast. Like, that is a very, very it's a g code. It is a weird factor that's thrown into the mix that makes things easier.
Jordan Gal:Right? If that's the definition of a g code? Yep.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:I like forgot that we do that. Right. But if if I think back, there was a point in time when I was leaving the family business, I I didn't know how to get in. I didn't know how to break into this world of people that I looked at and admired and listened to their podcast. It was it was Mixergy then.
Brian Casel:That was one of my first ones.
Jordan Gal:Right. We've talked about how we first met through that. Mhmm. So I think you're right that getting uncomfortable reaching out and networking and then starting to, like, publish and starting to get out there is is a real cheat code. I have backed away from it.
Jordan Gal:I think that's right for me right now. But to get started, there it's tough to beat as a cheat code. Yeah. It's it's like a it's a a beacon of light that attracts the right people to you.
Brian Casel:I I wrote it down because and these are not like recommendations to other people. Like, if you're not a podcaster, don't do a podcast. Like, if it if it's not natural for you, if you don't wanna do it, then don't do it. But the but I think it's the kind of thing that like it's hard to explain the benefits until you sort of experience them over over a long period of time. You know?
Brian Casel:The other thing that I wrote down is conferences and then I but more specifically, tiny conferences. But what I mean here is, first of all, just conferences in general, like larger ones. That's where I started to make friends in this industry. MicroConf was was a big one for me. Even locally, also I started to to meet some friends like at at meetups early on in my career.
Brian Casel:And for the first like four or five years, I never left my house and never met anyone in person and not many interesting things happened in my business. But it wasn't until I started to meet people in person, go to conferences, develop those relationships that more interesting things started to happen in my career. And then and then through those relationships, people that I met at MicroConf and and those sorts of places, we got together and started doing big snow tiny comp. Ski skiing and snowboarding 12 people in an Airbnb. We've been doing it for, I think, over ten years now.
Brian Casel:We and we do a couple of these trips every year. So the like, business founder friend retreats, and then you develop these long term adviser relationships. So so those tiny conferences in themselves are incredible. It's the the thing that I look forward to all all year long. But it's at this point now, years into doing that and developing these high caliber, deep, long standing relationships, these are go to advisors.
Brian Casel:And for someone like me who's a solo founder, literally just yesterday, well, first of all, like, I DMed you and we hopped on a call. You you were helping me out with a with a big business problem that's on my plate this week. I did the same thing with two or three other friends this week because we go back, and I really, really trust their opinions. And and, like, having this network of friends and advisers is absolutely gold. And the only way you do that is to get out there and just meet people, you know.
Jordan Gal:Look. Short of moving to a city and creating a network in in a city in a physical environment, the the the trade off there is that for for us right now in this stage of life, that is not what we're gonna do. I'm not moving to New York. Not moving to Samson. I'm moving to Austin.
Jordan Gal:I'm not doing that for my network. My family is the determining factor on where I live. Mhmm. But that means you have to get out there in a different way.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:Yep. Yep. The other cheat code, more specific, I every time I have started a business that directly impacts revenue, I've had an easier time than than when I have not.
Brian Casel:That has been Closer to the to the dollar.
Jordan Gal:Closer to the money. That's right. Yep. Like, the the family business, that thing worked really well because we represented homers to lower their property taxes, and it was literally a piece of mail you sent out that was like, I will save you money on your property taxes. If I don't succeed, don't pay me anything.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:And that is really close to Cardhook's original pitch. Add this to your abandoned cart emails. If you don't recover money from it, you don't pay. If you do, then pay me a percentage. It's like really right there.
Brian Casel:Yeah. We're next week, we are launching Clarity Flow Commerce, and it's my first and this was we we've been building toward this for the past year, and this was part of the the calculus in niching down and building this platform for coaches was like, we're gonna eventually get to giving coaches the ability to sell their coaching services and sell their packages through our platform. That makes us like an essential tool in their stack. So it'll be, you know, it'll be interesting to see how this how this plays out for Clarity Flow. And so I I think looking back on all my products and things, it it's the first time that we are really
Jordan Gal:Right there.
Brian Casel:In there in in the in the way that they sell their their stuff.
Jordan Gal:So Yep. Yep.
Brian Casel:Yeah. The only other the the last one that I had here, and I I didn't even, like, prepare anything for this one, was what are we most surprised about where we are today? Like, you if if young Jordan were to look at what you're doing, what are you doing talking on this podcast?
Jordan Gal:Oh my god. I don't know. I if I'm being honest, I think I made one mistake after another in my career. Just one after the other after the other. That is my
Brian Casel:Do you think you're alright. So so Jordan in college or, you know, that age or whatever is looking at you today. Like, do you think you'd be, I don't know, like like like, impressed with with what you what you got going on? I I think I'd be pretty pretty damn impressed with with how I'm living over here. And I and and I say that sitting here, like, not even close to being satisfied with with what's going on.
Brian Casel:But I think a young me would have been like, damn. That is awesome.
Jordan Gal:I think I would be very disappointed, and that speaks directly to the lack of wisdom of 18 year old me. And look, I I don't really blame myself. I came from a challenging environment, and we were immigrants, and we had no money, and that kind of stuck itself into my mindset. And I remember back being, you know, 10, 11 years old walking into someone's house and being like, this is nicer than my house, and I want this. Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:So it started pretty early for me, and it never left. And because of that, I have overemphasized going after money, and it has not it has led to two things at the same time, Not following my passion and not ending up with more money. You know? So that I think that's why I look back and I see a trail of mistakes because I think I would have been better off not going after money. I think it would have led me to things that I'm more interested in, that I would have been better at, and I would have made more money from it.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I mean, there's so many things about my life that that are just I never would have expected. Like, so, like like, we grew up sort of like like middle class living in Long Island, New York. Actually, you and I lived not very far from Not far
Jordan Gal:at all. In New York,
Brian Casel:like, almost neighboring towns. And I would say, I you know, like and I now live in Connecticut, which is not far from New York, but like, the cost wise of living, it's like so much you you get so much more space, more house, more space in between the houses in the in the neighborhood here. It's a totally different game from growing up in New York. And so, like, the the place I live in is so much bigger. The the area, it's so it's so much nicer.
Brian Casel:It's like Yeah. I mean, I I have a I have a Tesla. Like, it's like Yeah.
Jordan Gal:I hear you.
Brian Casel:You know, like and and I'm sitting here in my sweatpants in my own home office. This is where I've worked for the last fifteen years.
Jordan Gal:Yep. You beautiful wife. You beautiful kids. It's beautiful. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:I I hear you.
Brian Casel:Two girls, like, I never would've I I figured at some point I would have a family, but I just I don't know. Like, it it it's like, I a young me would have not been when I when I was that age, I was thinking like, I wanna live in New York City. I wanna be making enough money to get courtside seats to the Knicks. Right. Right.
Brian Casel:And and have some, like, baller apartment in the city. But here I am in the suburbs and I and I love it. You know? I don't I don't know.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. No. Look. I I, like you, grew up in Long Island and then went to Connecticut and lived lived there. And going from Long Island to Connecticut, that's making it.
Jordan Gal:It is an improvement Yeah. In your surroundings, in the stress level. That's my take on it. I I don't wanna hate on Long Island, but that that's that's my opinion.
Brian Casel:I would love to hate on Long Island. I think it's terrible. I love the people I love the people, but I I think it's the worst value in in all of America.
Jordan Gal:It was set up for failure. It was not their fault. It was a bunch of beautiful farmland, and it tried to get too many people into too small place to give the the w the the World War two GIs a place to live, and it it made it just too crowded, stressful, too crazy.
Brian Casel:Love the people, but it's, like, too expensive, too crowded. What are you doing there? Go somewhere
Jordan Gal:else. I I I I hear you. And I have a lot of friends from high school ended ended up in Long Island, and I'm, like, the only one that didn't go there. And I'm, guys, I I don't think I'm wrong.
Brian Casel:I think you're wrong. Me too, man. Same story. Yep.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. No. When when I have the wisdom to be a little more rational, I get I get the moments. You know, I I I get out of my Audi q seven. Sorry for a sec.
Jordan Gal:And I I I park in this beautiful neighborhood, and I walk up to my house, and it's nighttime, and and, like, all the the nice landscaping lights are on, and I see my wife and kids inside, and I get I get that satisfaction of shit, man. I made it. Maybe I can complain and I want more and all this other stuff, but there is that element of we have we have a lot to be proud of and feel good about.
Brian Casel:For sure.
Jordan Gal:And and on. I just wanna finish this part. Yeah. This This I talk about with my with my brothers the most. No one has paid me that I money that I didn't create for a very long time, and that is something to be extremely proud of.
Jordan Gal:It is really difficult to do to live outside the normal range of having a job and getting paid by a company is is a monumental task. It is I don't I'm not saying this to give myself credit. It's everyone out there. It's like 95% of the people listening to this. It is something to be so proud of.
Jordan Gal:Absolutely. Society, you know, thank God we live in this country that makes it easier, but it's still not easy.
Brian Casel:I mean, the thing the the thing with being unemployable is like it it's it's like a blessing and a curse. Right? Like
Jordan Gal:But you're alive, man. You're alive.
Brian Casel:It's yeah. It's it's like the best thing ever, and it's the and it's the most stressful thing. Like, I was just talking about how lucky I feel to be sitting here and doing this, and a young me would be crazy impressed with my life. Mhmm. And I sit here, like, frustrated as hell that I'm not where I wanna be, and I have so much more that I want to accomplish.
Jordan Gal:And Yeah.
Brian Casel:I not satisfied. Yeah. But you know what? Like, it's it's still and and the ability to as as hard as it is even just day to day, but the ability to say, like, I need to earn an income. How am I going to put together an income and then go do it?
Brian Casel:And, like, that's something I'm doing right now. Like, literally, like, getting the first dollars in the door for a new business. It's like, that's what we do. We go we go make it. You know?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. And then that turns into our our tribe. Our our people are the other cowboys who wanna go out and and, you know, hunt and kill what they eat.
Brian Casel:Damn, dude. I'm fired up. Alright. It's Friday.
Jordan Gal:Let's do it. Let's have a great weekend. I am I'm off for a few weeks. So Oh, yeah. Happy holidays, merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah, happy New Year, all the celebration.
Jordan Gal:Thanks everyone for listening for another year with us. Holy
Brian Casel:Yes. Oh, man. Alright. We'll we'll we'll see you in 2024. See you later, folks.
