2024 Calculus
Welcome back, everybody. Another episode of Bootstrapped Web. Mister Brian Castle, it's Friday. It's February 2. February, period.
Brian Casel:It's February. Yep. We're rolling right along here.
Jordan Gal:We are rolling. We're rolling.
Brian Casel:So, yeah, good to be back on the air. I'm I'm in between the two big snow tiny comp trips that I go to every year around this time. Had a had a great week up in instead of Vermont this year, we went up to Montreal. We went to Mont Treblanc.
Jordan Gal:Oh, how's that?
Brian Casel:That was a great time. We had a beautiful on mountain condo ski on, ski off. Really great group of you know, most of the same same faces, a couple new faces, and, yeah, just a great strategic get getaway. Good good fun. Although, I have had one of the worst, like, weeks in in between since then.
Brian Casel:I I got shingles for the first time in my life, which has been rough, dude.
Jordan Gal:That sounds like some old man.
Brian Casel:Right? Like, I don't know. I it's so weird because this year, I also got into, like like, the best shape of my adult life. I'm I'm not 70 years old, and I I'm sure I carry some some stress in in general at all times, especially, know, on the business front. Let home has been fantastic, this year.
Brian Casel:So it just but the stress seemed like normal, like, at nothing out of the out of out of the norm. So it just came out of nowhere. Maybe it was from the traveling or something, but I I got this shingles thing, and I didn't even know what it was for the first few days. And then it just got worse and worse. Saw the doctor, and it's definitely shingles on my back.
Brian Casel:And then it turned into this, like, nerve pain that kinda traveled throughout my whole side of the body. And, yeah, it's been I don't I so yeah. Pro tip, don't get shingles.
Jordan Gal:Don't get shingles.
Brian Casel:It kinda sucks.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I I I think I'll follow that advice if I I will need to do some research on how one gets shingles so that I can follow the advice properly.
Brian Casel:Yeah. It has to do with the if you if you've had the chicken pox or the vaccine when you were a kid, I guess it's in your system and then it could reactivate at any time, which it did for me. And then yeah, and it's it's weird because it's like, I'm not really sick. Like, I was still even able to snowboard through it and stuff like that. But and then I've been still working.
Brian Casel:Although I took it on the really bad days, I took a day off and watched a movie with my kids and stuff.
Jordan Gal:But But is pain?
Brian Casel:It's just pain. It's not yeah. Like It and it and some days, the worst days, which I think are behind me now, are were pretty unbearable. Like, not not fun at all. And I kinda have, like, a high threshold for pain.
Brian Casel:But when I'm, like, complaining about about pain, like, you know it's really bad.
Jordan Gal:Bro, is this another argument for wearing gloves while you change diapers? Maybe Aaron That was good. On pumping?
Brian Casel:Yeah. Right? Jeez.
Jordan Gal:Well, I'm sorry to
Brian Casel:hear that. I I hope
Jordan Gal:I hope you get better.
Brian Casel:I think I think I'm on I I think I'm coming down and and it's getting better. And and I I was actually fifty fifty on whether or not I'm even gonna go to the next trip on Colorado, but I think I'm I'm feeling good today and yesterday. So Cool.
Jordan Gal:Is that next week?
Brian Casel:I'm going in two days. I'm going
Jordan Gal:on Sunday.
Brian Casel:Okay. It's this weekend. So yeah.
Jordan Gal:Yep. Well, I was doing the opposite. I was not in pain. I was gallivanting around Europe last week. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Mean, my my dad's seventieth was recently. We asked him, dad, what do you wanna do? You know, let's let's go big. He said, I wanna go to Vienna. We were like, alright.
Jordan Gal:I guess, let's go to Austria for a weekend and just had a ball, man. It's so much fun. So it's my two brothers, myself, so three three boys and my dad. So it's basically like a guy's trip. No pressure, no guilt, very little planning.
Brian Casel:What so yeah. Like like what what does a trip like this look like? What's the what's the itinerary here?
Jordan Gal:The itinerary is to make fun of each other mercilessly at every opportunity.
Brian Casel:Yeah. You get like a like a nice hotel.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. We get a nice hotel and we basically had one cultural to do every day.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:So, you know, one day it's Schonbrunn Palace and then and then you and then we're done.
Brian Casel:The other day get some steaks, get get
Jordan Gal:some drinks. Yes. A lot a lot of schnitzel. I'm a schnitzel fan. We we Alright.
Jordan Gal:We explored the schnitzel landscape for sure. Mhmm. And cakes. My dad's into cakes. So it was basically like, get some breakfast, take a walk, get some lunch, do a cultural event, get some cake, go back to the hotel, get some coffee and laugh and tell stories, and then go to dinner and then get more cake.
Jordan Gal:And then go to bed and just do that for like four days in a row.
Brian Casel:And That doesn't sound too different from my family vacations with my kids. Like, we do we do like one thing in the morning and that's like all the energy we have and then we think about like, alright, let's do lunch, let's do dinner, and the rest of the time, we'll hang out.
Jordan Gal:Oh, that's good for you. Good for you. My my wife is much more ambitious with her energy and the energy of others. You know, she she doesn't like to sit around. She wants to go do stuff, which I respect
Brian Casel:because Our idea of, like, going going and doing stuff is, finding things to go eat somewhere.
Jordan Gal:Yes. Yes. So it was great. What a beautiful city. It was almost like the best version of Europe.
Jordan Gal:Right? Quiet
Brian Casel:Sounds amazing. I haven't been there. Like,
Jordan Gal:clean so clean it was weird. Like, the buildings look like they've never been dirty. Like, they must wash them, like, every few months.
Brian Casel:It's one of those, like, super modern European cities, like
Jordan Gal:No. No. It is preserved in time.
Brian Casel:Yeah. So it is yes.
Jordan Gal:So it is it is a modern, right, like, city, and everyone, like, it's just, like, classy, dressed up nicely. We'd go you know, we kinda had fun. We went we went and had drinks at the Imperial Hotel, if I may tell a very quick story. Mhmm. The reason we went to the Imperial Hotel is because sometime over the last few years, I saw a story about Simon Wiesenthal.
Jordan Gal:Right? The the the famous Jewish Nazi hunter, Simon Wiesenthal, who has, like, you know, museums named after him. So for Simon Wiesenthal's ninetieth birthday, his friends asked him what he wanted to do, and he said, I wanna go I wanna go have my birthday party at the Imperial Hotel. So I was like, alright. Let's go do that.
Jordan Gal:The reason he wanted to go to the Imperial Hotel in Vienna is because that was Hitler's favorite hotel. And Hitler made plans to basically run the war from the imperial hotel. So he got permanent suites, him and Himmler. They got permanent suites there, and we're planning to, like, run the war from there. Didn't work out that way.
Jordan Gal:So Wiesenthal wanted to basically go there and, like, celebrate and basically be able to say, hey. You know, even in the Imperial Hotel, the Jews can sing and dance even if Hitler is no more. So it's kind of this triumphant thing. So I took my brothers and my dad there, didn't tell them anything about that story, and got there, sat down, dressed all nice, ordered some fancy cocktails, and then we got to clink glasses to that, which was beautiful.
Brian Casel:That's that's great, So it was Beautiful. Yeah. It like fun.
Jordan Gal:Ton of history, great food, and, yeah, came back nice and energized. And, yeah, let let's get into stuff. I got I got some interesting things to talk about. I don't know what what you got
Brian Casel:going on The the fun thing about Big Snow Tiny Comp, and this seems to happen every single year. We've been doing it over ten years now, which is incredible. I always go into it thinking, like, I've got it all figured out for the upcoming year. Okay. Like, my plans, strategies.
Brian Casel:You're not gonna change my mind on whatever it is.
Jordan Gal:Well, that was January. It's February now, so we we gotta move on.
Brian Casel:And I I go into Big Snow with, like, here's here's the recap. Here's my strategy going forward, and I end up coming out of Big Snow thinking, like, alright. That has changed.
Jordan Gal:Oh, inter so so the Big Snow, those events, they usually have an impact on you.
Brian Casel:They do. Yeah. I think they do. Even even when I don't think that they will, they end up having some sort of impact on my I I think there's been not a major change, but I I have recalibrated some of my plans Okay. For at least the immediate future.
Brian Casel:So that's been interesting.
Jordan Gal:Okay. I too have recalibrated my plans. So let let's let's get into what, you know, what changes we're making. Let me know if
Brian Casel:you want
Jordan Gal:me to start on
Brian Casel:that.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Kick it off. Okay. Cool. So anyone listening, if you're not washing dishes or driving the car, next time you get a chance to get on the web and go to rallyon.com, what you will see there is a very different looking website than than yesterday.
Jordan Gal:Right? We just launched this morning. So what you'll see when you go to the site and what we are showing the world right now, a small sliver of the world that visits our website, is that we are we are not showing the checkout product on our site. We are exclusively showing our new offers product. And right, we started talking about this a little bit last week.
Jordan Gal:The offers product works with the merchant's existing checkout and gets added to it. So our post purchase offers and our order bumps and our basically personalized offers get added to an existing site. So the reason the checkout is off the site entirely alongside what you see is actually a full website with a home page that talks about two different products and then solutions pages one for each version of the product, the checkout version and the offers version. All of that is hidden and all traffic is going to just the offers page because we are trying to accelerate our learning in this experiment. And the way to do that is to basically just get as many people talking to us about the offers product without the checkout product even being a factor.
Jordan Gal:So we know everyone that's signing up, everyone that's asking for a demo, everyone that's reaching out is entirely focused on the offers product.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I love it. I'm I'm scrolling through it again now. I I just saw it for the first time a few minutes ago and yeah, I mean, the headline here is like turn your checkout into a sales machine. And I'm seeing a lot of what I what I love in general is shots of the product.
Brian Casel:You know? We we see an iPhone showing the checkout, showing these order bumps, you know, post purchase offers. As I was saying earlier, I think that the headlines and the pictures, like, tell do tell me, like, what it is. Like, it Yeah. Makes a lot of sense.
Jordan Gal:And you'll see it's you know, for for a company that's been around for a couple years, it's really thin and that's, you know, that's I I didn't wanna wait to launch the site until it was totally done. I just wanted to launch it now to get as much feedback as possible.
Brian Casel:You know, you say it it it's thin. I know I know to you it feels like it's there's not much here, but I think for a fresh viewer, to me, it doesn't look all that Right. Different from from like a typical, like clean, modern, like SaaS product website.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. The opposite side of Finn is clear. It's dead clear. It's like, this is what we do. Are you interested?
Jordan Gal:Click here. So next up will be a
Brian Casel:pricing The thing that I'm seeing yeah. I was just gonna say, so I took the the get started call to action, it just leads to a lead form Yes. A demo. To request a demo. Yes.
Brian Casel:There's no pricing info.
Jordan Gal:Nope. We need to do we need to add the pricing page. And even though we'll have a pricing page, we will not be giving pricing information. Mhmm. And the page that I want to add next is a little bit more so what you're seeing is the product as seen by the shopper.
Jordan Gal:I now want to show the product for the merchant. The back end, how it works, how you build up an offer, what the recommendation engine looks like. So that's like the next page, and then as soon as that's done, we need a middle of the funnel entry point. Right. Here's this case study, and give us your email.
Jordan Gal:Just so it's something in between visiting and requesting a demo that there's an intermediary step. And what we're doing I have
Brian Casel:a question about the pricing and the demo. Sure. So with the new strategy of selling this this offers product, is it still all about driving demos, or is there gonna be some shift in terms of, like, there there are going to be some, like, sort of, like, self serve customers that you then farm leads from if they're larger to go to a demo.
Jordan Gal:So this product for the first time offers us the ability to go self serve. Right? It's not nearly as complicated as the checkout, which is a disaster in in being self serve.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:I don't have any plans to go self serve anytime soon. I I actually so I'll talk more about this over the next few weeks as I learn more, but let me just allude a little bit to the the to the packaging strategy, I think, would be the right way to put it. I'm trying to set up a scenario where we lower the bar to working with us as close to the floor as possible. That that maybe that's not accurate because well, for our for our customer segment. Right?
Jordan Gal:And what that means for us is a small, targeted, get enough skin in the game to get this thing off the ground. In our world, that is not $50 a month. That's something in the thousands of dollars. But $3.04, 5,000, something under $10,000 is one of those decisions that our customer segment doesn't need approval for. Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:So if we're talking to the marketing department, they can just say, cool. Here's the credit card. Right? There's no so we're trying to keep the decision process in that realm of no approval required. And my real goal in that is to have a a straightforward, high velocity sales process that then is able to pay for our marketing expense.
Jordan Gal:Yep. Just just play this out with me for a sec. Let's just say for example, five people sign up in a given month for what is effectively like a proof of concept. Right? Let's just call it $5,000.
Jordan Gal:So $5,000 is the type of decision our customer segment does not really need approval for. They can just decide, okay. That upside is big enough and the downside is so limited, and you're telling us it's only a few days of work here and there and you'll help us build the the first offer sets, that's digestible to that customer segment. If five sign up in a given month at $5,000 a piece, that $25,000, I want that to pay for our acquisition, for our customer acquisition. Yep.
Jordan Gal:So ideally, it becomes a scenario where we don't know if all five of those are gonna become great customers, but if two or three of those become good customers, and a good customer being like, you know, a larger annual contract in the $10.20, $30.40, $50,000 range, if we don't know how many of those are gonna become a good customer, as long as the new customers are paying for our customer acquisition, then we potentially have a bit of an infinite infinite flywheel. Yep. So that's the type of scenario that I'm trying to set up where if we have our SDRs, we have our AE, and we have a free trial that's paid. Right? It's like a limited trial, but we do need skin in the game.
Jordan Gal:We need them to put up a few thousand bucks. Ideally, that can pay for our customer acquisition cost, and then we can just hit hit the gas on that. So it's a it's a very different model from long sales cycle on the checkout that leads into a $50,100,000 dollar agreement. It's just a Yeah. It's a different model.
Brian Casel:And by not showing any pricing, you're still indicating that, like like, they're the the the really small merchants are just gonna not go through it. And then the yeah. Like like, the assumption is, like, they and anyone even on at the $5,000 level will will wanna get a demo.
Jordan Gal:Yes. That that's how we want it to feel right now. Right? We don't want it to get into the realm of like, but this is comparable to a piece of software that I pay a $100 a month for. Why wouldn't I just do that?
Jordan Gal:We we don't want it to feel comparable to that. That's a bad comparison for us and and for and for the product.
Brian Casel:And so this just launched today?
Jordan Gal:It's launched today.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Nice.
Jordan Gal:So, yeah, the goal is to just get into as as many conversations as possible and make this offer. Today was the first time we had a call with someone with this proof of concept in mind, with the site different. So, like, we are officially underway.
Brian Casel:Nice, dude.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. So, you know, over the next few weeks, my hope is to get feedback and see if our first stab at the price and how long the proof of concept should be and if this makes sense and if a merchant even wants to do that or they wanna pay upfront for the like, there's a whole bunch of guessing there.
Brian Casel:Lot of lot of unknowns.
Jordan Gal:Yes. And we're kind of going and saying, this is all a guess. It's an educated stab. Let's not drive ourselves crazy on exactly what these things should be because we there's no way we have it all right, so let's just let's just go.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah. It feels
Jordan Gal:like we're, like, going back towards, like, start up.
Brian Casel:Starting again.
Jordan Gal:Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's kind of interesting.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, that's that's the thing. Like, even you know, I I think that what this maybe one of the absolute hardest things about any startup trajectory is once you're over a year or two into something, which means if you've lasted that long, you do have some customers. Like, it's if, you know
Jordan Gal:Right. It's If
Brian Casel:it's if it's a complete failure, you would have been done long time before before the two year point. So get into two years in and it hasn't really clicked and then making a big shift like this, and I've gone through it obviously with Clarity Flow, that is the hardest thing to, like, pull the trigger on and, like, just go do. Or or at least and, like, you know, even even though this is clearly an experiment that you're talking about, like, you changed the homepage of your business. Like It's a It's it's not just like, let's just put something live for five days and see what happens.
Jordan Gal:No. This is No.
Brian Casel:The it's an experiment, but it's a long term, like, bet here.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Last week, it was just a homepage. And as we kept talking about it, we were like, we don't because we start to get into the muddied middle. And a a merchant would come into our sales process, and we would basically say, so we have this checkout product, but we also have this other thing. Which one's right for you?
Jordan Gal:And that's just never gonna work as well as Too many options. What we do. That's right. Yep. So we just said, you know what?
Jordan Gal:Let's just take that landing page that we launched and just make that the homepage, and let's just let it run with it so we learn faster.
Brian Casel:I I think it just takes a level of, like, really stepping back. And this is where things like not just mastermind groups, but I think, like, doing trips and and talking to advisers and and mulling something over for for months at a time and starting to connect the dots where you get to a point where it's like, alright. We have some revenue. We've got some customers. Some peep a few people are early people are, like, excited.
Brian Casel:But let's rise above all that and be like, what if our whole world changed? And, like because because there is some friction that I don't wanna see in this business right now. What if what if we just remove that and think about our world completely differently and try try that on and see what happens? You know?
Jordan Gal:If if I thought about this, when I thought about something like this months ago, I would expect I don't know if you can hear that insane. I do. You oh, okay. I I'm having construction done at the house. I'm just gonna apologize to everyone.
Jordan Gal:Maybe maybe closing the door will help. But
Brian Casel:I was like, is somebody, like, riding a motorcycle outside your place or
Jordan Gal:something? There's a lot going on. I honestly don't know. So thinking about it, like, putting myself a few months back, I thought I would have more emotional, like, distress because right. Let's be let's be honest with myself here.
Jordan Gal:I want to pursue changing the ecommerce market through checkout and payments and liberating that part of the stack from platforms. That goes back to my Shopify experience. It turned into ideology. It turned into a belief system, and all the things that are attached to that in terms of, like, self identity and wanting to do all this other stuff. Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:And I I feel almost no emotional connection to it. I'm just like Yeah. This I just cannot be ideological about it. You're like, this is what the market wants right now. I could be stubborn and have things, like, just not be as good as they can be or just just move.
Brian Casel:And there's, you know, the yeah. I I think that at at first, it's sort of, like, getting over the fear of making such a big drastic change in your business when some early things might have been working. But then, I don't know about you, but it's it sounds like it. But but, like, for me, then you reach the next phase, which is, excitement about, like, alright. This this can this has the potential to change everything.
Brian Casel:Right? Like, it there's first, like, getting over the fear of, like, am I am I gonna fuck something up because I had some things working, but not everything working, and I'm abandoning that to, okay. Let's shift to this new world view, this new sales model, this new product model. And then it's like, alright, now now we're gonna execute on that and now it's like, let's just do our best and that that gets me excited. Like, what what's the best version of this new world view?
Brian Casel:Right?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. It it is it is very much the opposite of, like, being, like, emotionally attached to it. It actually I'm actually super motivated and super excited, and I'm I'm up late working on, like, ad copy because it does feel like this it's like a renewal of optimism because we had this breakthrough. Also, we can offer something different, then all a sudden, you start to look at the whole opportunity differently. Right?
Jordan Gal:I'm looking at integration partners differently. I'm looking at product feature roadmap. Like, right, what makes sense to us is to add in, like like, AI powered recommendations instead of the merchant Mhmm. Building things on their own. It's like, well, give us your order history and let us run that through some ML and come up with the offers directly ourselves without you intervening.
Jordan Gal:Yep. So all a sudden, new stuff starts to open up and it gets gets exciting.
Brian Casel:Dude.
Jordan Gal:So I'll I'll report back on on how the first few weeks are going.
Brian Casel:It'll be interesting. Yeah. I wanna hear more about, like, your next steps in the experiment. Like, what what do you what are, like, the sub tiny experiments that you do next with the pricing and the offers and Yeah.
Jordan Gal:What we got right, what we got wrong. Yeah. We'll see.
Brian Casel:Good stuff. Before I get into the more big picture stuff, I mean, I'll I'll do a clarity flow update. January was, I think, one of the best growth months that we've seen yet in the business. Feels feels good, especially coming on the month after we shipped Clarity Flow Commerce. I think that definitely had a had a big piece of it.
Brian Casel:Like, that drove most of it because, a, I think more customers were converting with it in the product than without. And also, a big chunk of the MRR growth was lower plans upgrading, expanding into the higher plan, which gives them access to Clarityflow Commerce. That's interesting feedback. That's been an interesting thing. I think another piece of the growth has been our we we've been doing cold email outreach, and that's that's working somewhat well.
Brian Casel:We we we're definitely driving a handful of extra leads and paying customers than we otherwise would've. And that's that's been a nice it was such a grind and such a huge project to get that built out in the system and the and the all all the processes for getting that running the right way. But I think the key to this success with that because I've I've experimented with cold outreach in multiple businesses before, including Zip Message before Clarity Flow and Audience Ops and all these different ones. And I think the key difference in seeing a higher rate of replies is just the targeting and making sure that you a, have an offer, have have a product that is so directly valuable to a very specific type of person or job title or something. And then really doing a lot of extra work on targeting that list and making sure that every person receiving it like is your ideal target customer that like, believe it or not, like that's when things like cold email outreach actually can work.
Brian Casel:I mean, that being said, like it's still not like just like every other marketing experiment that I've spent lots of time and effort and lots of dollars on. I still, even though it's driving more customers, it's it still doesn't feel like it was actually worth the the amount of dollars spent on it because it's just not enough. It's just not I have come to the conclusion after after the past three years of of trying to really accelerate growth on Clarity Flow that, like, think what you will about this, but, like, I just don't think that you can buy, like, distribution. You have to either have an inroad with a distribution advantage and or have a huge wave of natural market demand that's going to drive really accelerated growth. And if you don't have those things, I think it just comes down to product.
Brian Casel:Like, you can you can still win with a really good product. It's just gonna take a lot more years of very slow, steady growth of of ramping it up. And that's that's just the reality that I'm in. I think that's the reality that most SaaS businesses are, and and they can be, frankly deceived into, like, you have to spend a lot more money and time on marketing when you can't just make you you can't just expect to spend x thousands of dollars and triple your top of funnel. Like, it's unless you have, again, like, a distribution advantage or a wave of demand in my view.
Brian Casel:So Yeah. I don't feel like because, like, even with that, like, we we grew, and all the growth comes from the product being complete and word-of-mouth, like good coaches refer other good coaches to our product, and retention and conversion. And and we we get an organic love. And even like SEO, all the SEO stuff we get comes to our homepage and a and a few strategic pages, not not the thousands of dollars I've spent on content marketing. You know?
Brian Casel:So
Jordan Gal:It does it does give you
Brian Casel:Pay per pay per click, thousands of dollars experiments, like no no customers.
Jordan Gal:You know? We we we've talked about this.
Brian Casel:Even in even integrations. I know it's different for different businesses, but, like, thousands of dollars of dev work, and it doesn't drive customers. It's word-of-mouth because the product fits. That's that's the thing that actually grows it. It's just at at that point, you need the the formula is you need time.
Brian Casel:You need to be able to survive the years of growth. Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. It is it's a little depressing because it feels like not nothing works. There there is a subset of product type and team type that does know how to do it, and it is an exceptional rare thing. It's why some, you know, b to b SaaS marketers are so rare and so highly sought after that know how to do it. It is it is very, very difficult.
Brian Casel:This might be a bit of a spicy take, and it's not that the that those high high value marketers are not talented because they absolutely are. But I feel like every time I really think about companies that have a great marketer behind them, I can still point to a product that is fundamentally in such high demand that it's about the product and the offer first, and then the marketing throws fuel on that fire.
Jordan Gal:Okay.
Brian Casel:I I agree. You can't put you you can't put a world class marketer on just any product and expect them to you you can't grow SEO traffic if the search volume is not there. Yeah. Like, it's you just
Jordan Gal:not gonna work. It's almost like the marketing has to do the product justice. Like, if the product is good enough that its people are signing up and staying, then then it does deserve to get more attention and more eyeballs and be more places. And Yeah. It's not a direct response.
Jordan Gal:Like, you put in this much money,
Brian Casel:this number I think that sometimes, like, world be. Sometimes, like, world class marketers or founders who are world class marketers, I feel like they get again, not to take anything away from them and their talent, but I think that their actual talent, in my view, is identifying the right fundamental idea for the whole business and the product in the first place that that enables them to use their marketing tools that they know how to use. It was the decision to do that business instead of Sure. The thousand other business ideas that are that don't have the potential to meet the demand. It's it's the it's identifying the demand before before being quote unquote good marketer.
Brian Casel:Mhmm. You know?
Jordan Gal:Right. Then then you can right. You can do the PR. You can do the advertising. You can do the marketing partnerships.
Jordan Gal:You can do podcasts. You can give that feeling of being everywhere and that can accelerate adoption, but only because it's it's already it's already working.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, man.
Brennan Dunn:Which That's that's that's
Jordan Gal:a tricky conclusion to come to.
Brian Casel:I mean, that's just been my experience. And but it's it's been good to see Clarity Flow grow. And it and and so that that whole rant there leads me to my strategy for 2024, which is, you know, we're gonna keep this cold email outreach running. It's a nice kind of low cost thing at this point to run, and it and it adds a few customers in the door. I feel like we have a pretty good performing marketing site, but I'm but I am cutting costs in 2024 because the business has to become profitable eventually, and I and I need to, you know, allocate blah blah blah.
Brian Casel:Lot of stuff there. But the the main strategy in '24 is, like, instead of investing in more expensive marketing experiments that that aren't going to pay for themselves, put those dollars into customer success. And so, Kat, the person who worked with me on Audience Ops for many years, is gonna be rejoining me pretty soon. I was pretty surprised that I was pretty surprised and excited that that she's available for this. But starting next week, she's gonna come on board, and and that's gonna be, like, the one investment this year in Clarity Flow is like, let's go all in on customer success and customer and like conversion and retention.
Brian Casel:And just I'm I'm just not caring so much about trying to like grow that top of funnel. I because, again, I've just come to the conclusion that, like, the way that this business keeps growing is converting more of our trials into customers. Because we get some baseline of organic trials, again, because of product word-of-mouth, Google search SEO. The product has a viral loop as well. Communities of coaches talking about it.
Brian Casel:And I have this I always have this feeling of like most of our trials are coaches and they are really perfect fits for our product. And it pains me to see like a really good fit coach just not convert. Like, there's just no excuse in my view why our product should not con because if they were excited enough to organically come to our site and start the free trial and go through our videos and try to set it up themselves and they send a bunch of email support questions and then they still don't go on to convert, like
Jordan Gal:Something happened.
Brian Casel:Something happened. And so I feel like there are way too many of those who should have been perfect fits that if I had the time to like really get on multiple calls with them or really do like product workshops or another thing I wanna launch soon this year is like a paid onboarding service for coaches where they will get you know, multiple weeks of like, let's work together and set up your coaching programs on Clarity Flow. These are all things that I think will really, really help the business, but I can't give it that level of hours myself anymore. I just the business won't support it has to I'm I'm bootstrapping now, so I I can't just put throw myself on that job for the rest of the the year. So that's where Kat comes in to to be that success person.
Brian Casel:And I'm just really excited to, like, just do everything we can to to be, like, best in the market on customer success. And, like, you're gonna come in here and you're gonna get, like, stellar support and talk to someone, and we're gonna work together, and your coaching business is gonna be amazing on Clarity Flow.
Jordan Gal:If if you boil it down to just the numbers, the the goal of Kat's role is to maximize the conversion
Brian Casel:of
Jordan Gal:of of trial to paid by
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:By basically paying more attention and and Yeah. Understanding them better.
Brian Casel:Yeah. That and being available for calls and taking the customer support load off of my plate. And my role is still product. Me and the developer work on improving the product. And that's been fun.
Brian Casel:Now that we've shipped all the big features, now we're getting back around to all the little UX things to make the product easier to use and less frustrating and things like that. So that's where I'm you know, I I'm I'm reducing my time on Clarity Flow from, like, a 100% of my time down to, like, 20% so that I can rebuild my my other portfolio of of things. But with that 20%, I need to be on product with the developer and not customer support calls. But the but what the business needs is customer support and customer success, and that's where her role comes in. Mhmm.
Brian Casel:And I think that adding a paid version of that will be an interesting lever that we can try this year. Yeah. The other cool thing is that she's a content person. She's a writer, content creator. So when it comes to content, quote, unquote, content marketing, if you will, again, like, I've tried so many years and thousands of dollars on SEO based content and that's just not the game anymore.
Brian Casel:That has changed. What we actually need on content is content that helps our customers be successful. Not just documentation, but, like, workshops and mini courses and, you know, things like that. And that that's she could she could help out with that kind of stuff too.
Jordan Gal:Okay. You you got some experiments coming up too.
Brian Casel:Yeah. So I I What else you got?
Jordan Gal:I wanna give a report from from venture land. Things are not good in venture land. Things got very real very quick. And a lot of my friends who have raised money from venture are in a similar predicament. The there there was a tweet by Gary Tan recently that talked about the bar for series a.
Jordan Gal:It's it's so high right now that people who have, by all measures, except for venture measures, have amazing businesses. I'm thinking of a friend in particular who grew very nicely from millions in ARR to more millions in ARR. The market right now is is a bit is a bit I don't know how to say this. Selective but, like, to an extreme. So businesses that from the outside, if you looked at the numbers, you would think, well, that's, you know, that's an amazing business that you have going and it's growing that quickly.
Jordan Gal:You know, that's great. You should be able to raise money, especially if if you've already raised money. Founders are finding that when they go to market, things look a lot worse than expected. You know, we we are we are all a bit, like, crazy on the optimistic scale. You know, entrepreneurs Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Just to begin with are optimistic. People who raised money in 2019, 2021, '22, and so on, like, we know it's harder now. I don't think people realize how much harder. And what that is doing is creating a lot of very weird, difficult decisions to be made.
Brian Casel:Why is it hard really? Like what what is it what's the feedback from VC? What are they looking for?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. So they they still need the math is still what it is. You still need a few of your companies to have very, very large returns. And there's some there's some residue, some hangover from valuations. So companies that raise in 2020, '21, '22, less of '22, if you raise at a pretty high valuation, you need to grow into that valuation, but the multiples are completely different.
Jordan Gal:So you have to grow significantly more. And then when you go to market, investors still have the same math on their side of things. They still need huge 100 x plus. And if you come to them and you're doing 5,000,000 in ARR and you've been around for three or four years and you went from 3,000,000 to 5,000,000 last year, you don't seem likely to get to a 100,000,000 in ARR in the next two or three years. You're just not on that trajectory.
Jordan Gal:Your growth curve is already slowing down at a few million ARR. You are not a good bet for that portfolio. It'd
Brian Casel:be going from like 5 to 10 or 10 to 20,000,000 and that's just not good enough.
Jordan Gal:Right. That's kind of the bar. That is where where the then it gets into like margin and
Brian Casel:But even even that alright. So if that's if that's the the the world view of VC, in 2024, what what qualifies for that? What what are they biting on on that? Is it is it AI startups? Is it what is it?
Jordan Gal:Yes. So it is it is breakout incredible growth. And AI companies are are getting that and some other software companies that still they're out there. There's still the super unbelievable growth and that's what everyone clamors over and fights over. But, you know, and I and I'm not a VC.
Jordan Gal:I I don't know nearly as much about their universe. It's almost like we're extrapolating as founders. But on the founder side of things is where things get pretty tricky, you know, and that's who we sympathize with and who we think about. So if you're running a company that does a few million dollars in ARR, a lot of founders are starting to come to the conclusion that they they don't want they don't wanna be in that position anymore. Right.
Jordan Gal:You you you kinda
Brian Casel:Makes sense to me. Right.
Jordan Gal:If if you're at 5,000,000 ARR, let's say you're right on the verge of profitability, you look out in the market, nobody wants you you can't raise series b because you you're not hitting those metrics. If you raise a series a extension, you're just taking on more preference stack. Right? You you more money that you have to pay back before you make any money yourselves as a team. Maybe the valuation stays about the same, but isn't it just that much harder to get over the the hurdle of of paying back the the preferred shareholders.
Jordan Gal:And you look around and you're like, well, that's not why I got into this. Mhmm. I got into this to fly and have that the valuation grow really quickly and, you know, basically get extremely rich within a a few years because of the the math involved in the ability for the valuation of a venture, funded company to grow. Now if you're looking at that path and you're saying, well, the smart thing for me to do is to get profitable. If you're if you're at 5,000,000 ARR, you can probably find a way to cut yourself toward profitability.
Jordan Gal:Mhmm. Right? You look at your cash. You could you could make that work.
Brian Casel:Especially if you're growing.
Jordan Gal:Especially if you're growing.
Brian Casel:If you're growing to to more millions in m in ARR, like, to me, like and not not like I know what it's like to to to run a SaaS business at that size, but, like, it's not like an agency where you have to double and triple and quadruple your your workforce every time you add a million in ARR.
Jordan Gal:It's but here's
Brian Casel:It's SaaS profitable, so you can scale. You can grow a little bit on the team, but technically, if if you wanna just grow a quote unquote good business
Jordan Gal:Right. Not
Brian Casel:a VC business.
Jordan Gal:Right. Let's just say you're breakeven. Let's say you're at 5,000,000 ARR and you're breakeven. You've got 2 or $3,000,000 in the bank. If you go toward profitability, you're making the devil's bargain.
Jordan Gal:You're saying, okay. We're gonna get profitable. We're gonna start making a $100,000 a month in profit. We're gonna get toward a million dollars in in profit per year. Right?
Jordan Gal:Pretty damn good. You're doing that by cutting back and letting the growth get ahead of the expenses and when you do that, you're consciously making the bargain to grow even slower. And then you get into the cycle of well now we're off the track. We can't We've already raised, call it $10.15, $20,000,000.
Brian Casel:Yeah. But
Jordan Gal:the venture track and now we no longer make sense for it.
Brian Casel:I just again, I wanna pause. This gets back to my rant my lifelong rant against marketing, I guess.
Jordan Gal:Oh, okay.
Brian Casel:Okay. But if if you are already growing from, let's say, 6,000,000 to 9,000,000 in in the course of a year Sure. Or more, The fact that you're cutting back on on continuous growth of your team does not mean you're going to stop growing. It means you you like, you you already have a product in the market that is working. Like You're gonna grow slower.
Brian Casel:Sense that, like, just because you're you're not raising more millions in in investment and you're not, like, tripling your your head count, like, to me, head count does not equal growth.
Jordan Gal:Like Not directly, but there's a correlation to how many people you're paying to do outbound and do sales and do biz dev. So if you if you cut back, then you're not gonna stop growing entirely, but you will grow slower. So let's just right. Play it out. You're a founder, you own 30% of the company at that point in time, you are looking at 5,000,000 ARR, you think, okay, I can get profitable by this year so we can make it, we don't need any more outside investment.
Jordan Gal:So in the next year, we'll get to a million dollars in annual profit. Then the next year, we'll get to 2. Then the next year, we'll get to 4. So now you're looking at three or four years into the future, you'll have a business that does a few million dollars in profit and nobody wants to buy it and what is your 30% worth and is does that make sense for you to invest another three or four years into? You don't own the business.
Jordan Gal:It's not your 3 or $4,000,000
Brian Casel:that's the that's the trade off that that you end up hitting when when you've taken any level of of investment is that you, you know, an exit like, the exit math gets Right. Difficult.
Jordan Gal:Play it out. $3,000,000 in profit annually. Awesome. Right? Let's say you're doing that off of 10,000,000 in ARR.
Jordan Gal:Who how much someone gonna pay to to buy your company? $30,000,000? You raise at a $50,000,000 valuation. If you've already raised 20,000,000, you gotta pay the investors back to 20,000,000 before you make a dollar.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:So the incentive just starts to get wacky Mhmm. And everyone's trying to figure out what what do I do with this. It's it's it's not an easy thing. I I my instinct is go to our profitability, build in sustainability, be patient, You never know what's gonna happen. You never know what product you're gonna come up with.
Jordan Gal:You don't you know what I mean? Yeah. I I That's that's my take, but not everyone here's the thing.
Brian Casel:Me too because it's like, even if I know, like, if if if your company has started on the VC track, but then you sort of shift into the more profitable track and you're growing a, you know, a multi 8 figure business here, like, I I do think that like, there there are gonna be plenty of very great outcomes that you can reach in the next five
Jordan Gal:to ten my hunch too. I think what really
Brian Casel:And by the way, it's a great business to to work in.
Jordan Gal:I think what really makes, like, the the difference there is if you enjoy the product that you built and the team that you built. Because then five more years sounds like, hey, I'd I like what I'm doing. I think we're on to some you know? But if you are looking around saying, I I'm kind of starting to look elsewhere and this AI thing looks really interesting and I don't love this market anymore because I just got into it because it was hot. That's when people are like, 5,000,000 ARR?
Jordan Gal:Cool. I'm gonna shut down the business and I'm moving on my life. And that's happening all
Brian Casel:over. Yep. Yeah. You see, like like, why would this why would this SaaS company over here just, shut down when they actually have customers? It's like, oh, because they took all that all that VC and it doesn't make sense for them.
Jordan Gal:Yes. And and the people I am trying to think of the the the saying. I'm I'm I'm not into quoting Paul Graham these days. He's not not my favorite person anymore. But it was basically like, you know, startups kind of end when when their leaders kinda are done.
Jordan Gal:They don't wanna do anymore. They give up or whatever you wanna call that. If they don't wanna do it anymore, that's kind of when. If you really just keep going, sure you can run out of money, then some people just keep going anyway with the with the same idea. Anyway, that's my report from from VC Land.
Jordan Gal:Thing things are weird.
Brian Casel:Yeah, man. Well, I mean, over here in bootstrapper land, you know what? I I still am of the mindset of because, you know, I'm doing as I said, going between these big snows, it it it gives me a a good opportunity to to to to step back at a high level and and think through where I'm at in my whole career. I feel like I'm in some sort of, like, midway point where it's like, I I've had multiple years of trying different approaches to entrepreneurship. I went I went through a bunch of years where I had sort of a portfolio of, like, a couple profitable bootstrapped, like stair stepping up different businesses.
Brian Casel:And then I and then I tried a couple of years of just going all in, selling off all the assets, going all in on one, taking a bit of investment on one. As as as we know from listening to this podcast, you basically know the the story. And I like, I'm I'm now of the mindset of, like, I think it was for me, it was better in the portfolio bootstrapped, self funded, not go all in on one thing, not be super urgent about having to hit growth targets in order for this thing to survive Mhmm. By by x date. There was a time, and then and I'm working to get back to this now going forward, where I could invest a month or two or three months or six months on a business and and get customers and build it and hire a person or two to run the processes that I put in place or automate and have some passive income, whatever that business might be.
Brian Casel:And then hop over to here and and sidestep to another business idea or product or service or consulting and make a little bit of money from there. And then and then that thing has some legs that can run for a few months with a team member or two or a VA or automated sales. And then I hop back to that and and have some have some, you know, give give that a bit more love. And and, like, these little boot portfolio of bootstrapped companies do not necessarily decline during the months that I stop working on them because I they're automated. They they I've delegated the work.
Brian Casel:I have processes that keep keep those revenue channels running. And I still believe that very good products with good customers can still continue on and not die even when I'm giving it like 20% instead of a 100% of my effort day to day or week to week. You know? And that's just how I'm operating now going forward. That's of like my operating principle on this whole thing.
Brian Casel:And and so, you know, I I was talking a lot about, like, the YouTube endeavor that I that I started. I'm I'm still gonna be kind of doing a bit of that, but I think I'm gonna I I probably bit off more than I can chew there, getting a bit too ambitious. And I I'm stepping back, and I'm just thinking about multiple ideas for business revenue streams that I can start to I don't know exactly when in 2024 or next year when these might come into play or come into the mix, but I have, like, multiple ideas. And I'm already doing a bit of consulting. I have an idea to do more of, like, a product development studio, maybe aimed at large audience influencers who wanna sell a SaaS product to their audience.
Brian Casel:I've been talking to a few people in that realm about doing larger projects and sort of an interesting studio model there, like product development studio, doing a bit of product development strategy, even developing other product ideas as part of my portfolio, and and then continuing to, you know, do some product work on Clarity Flow. That's sort of how it's coming together. And then, like, taking learnings from these as I'm learning from product, getting into new technologies and building products, taking what I learn and teach it on the YouTube channel and and and kind of as, like, a as one thing in the mix, getting back to actually investing some time in audience growth again through YouTube, but not going all in not going all in on
Jordan Gal:any Not as the audience growth as the the end point or
Brian Casel:Yeah. Just just keep it keep it going a little bit more than I have in in recent years, especially with YouTube. But the whole point now for me is, like, I'm not all in on anything. There's nothing that's a 100%. I'm totally fine with 20%, 30%.
Brian Casel:At times I'll be 80%, a 100% on things, especially in the startup phase. And like, of all these different ideas, have a few that I wanna work on first and ones that that I might do later. But I'm not all in on anything. I I I it's not worth it to me to bet entire years of my career anymore on a single product idea, and especially if that means it's gonna be unprofitable for a period of time or or that I need to invest or raise investment. Like, I'm I'm done with that game.
Brian Casel:So Okay. The the bootstrapper game is cobbling it together.
Jordan Gal:Right. You put a a portfolio. A You put
Brian Casel:a portfolio. Like, most bootstrappers either have a job or consulting, and and then they do a a product on the side. In in my experience, it's it's actually been more effective to, yeah, do some consulting when you need to here and there, but, like, you can still build cash flowing profitable businesses that are actually assets that could eventually be sold, like like I did with Audience Ops. And so yeah. I that that's sort of the I probably rambled a bit there, but that's the shift in mindset that I have now coming out of Big Snow.
Brian Casel:Whereas going in, I was like, I think I need to go all in on audience and YouTube and courses and and all that. And I think I sort of overcorrected in, like, getting too excited about that, and now I'm like, alright. Let let me just I I know how to build businesses that make money. Let's just build some of them. And and and also just less about, like, the like, again, I'm not going all in for a whole year or years at a time, so I'm so I'm thinking much more in short term increments.
Brian Casel:Like, I'm only really focused on the next, like, ninety days. Like, what are the big projects that I wanna be working on in the next ninety days? That's all I kinda care about at this point, you know?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. If if one of them pops off and and rightfully commands more of your attention, you can figure that out then. I it will be very interesting to see what happens with the clarity flow over the next six months.
Brian Casel:I mean, looking at the MRR graph, like, it especially, like, the the new it's been the the MRR has been slow because we still churn off what we call legacy customers, people who are around since the Zip message days. But the majority of our customers at this point and and MRR is from new customers who've discovered us after we became Clarity Flow, and that graph is up into the right. So the conclusion is, like, that graph just needs more years to grow. It's it's not it's not up to a level that that can be profitable. It's not even close, but it's it's up into the right.
Brian Casel:So it
Jordan Gal:Right direction.
Brian Casel:So so we need so we need to just make sure that that we are converting as many of those trials as and we need to make sure that we are continuing to make the product better. We we've shipped the big pieces, And now this year on the product, just me and I've cut down to one developer is UX improvements. You know? Small seemingly small, but, like, high impact little things that that make the product better. You know?
Brian Casel:That's the kind of stuff that, like, people get less frustrated, less support. They stick around. Retention. You know?
Jordan Gal:Cool. Well well, let's see where it goes. My my last question to you before we call it a day. On a scale of one to 10, how badly do you want a VisionPRO?
Brian Casel:Oh, dude. I don't want I don't want version one. I could I I expect I'll probably buy, like, maybe version three in a couple years.
Jordan Gal:You believe it would not not like a stupid little gimmick thing. 100%. I believe. Yeah. I'm
Brian Casel:I'm I I think it's gonna be massive. I think it's gonna be huge. I I think version one is probably mostly terrible and not worth the price tag, but the excitement over what it means and the spatial computing and the entertainment value and the work value, it's it's clearly gonna be awesome. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:And it's it's good to see companies right. It is it's like an operating system. Right? So you
Brian Casel:Spatial computing. It's it's gonna be a new frontier, really.
Jordan Gal:You need you need people to hook into it. You need you need Netflix on board. Yeah. You need video game you know, you need developers to kinda get on board. And that's
Brian Casel:I'm a big fan of the podcast called Dithering Okay. Which is it's actually the one paid podcast. It's $5 a month from John Gruber and Ben Thompson. So two, like, really my my two favorite, like, tech journalists. They they do this twice a week podcast, fifteen minutes, just talking about, like, the big, tech news of of the week.
Brian Casel:And, obviously, they've they've done a lot of coverage of of the VisionPro. They had a really good one that I think came out today talking about and I completely agree with this take. I'm so excited that Apple still shipped this thing. Okay. You know?
Brian Casel:And and that that Apple, this what are they? The most valuable companies? Them and Microsoft one and two. Right? Yeah.
Brian Casel:Like, they still took a huge bet. It it I mean, it it's not like they're betting it's not gonna be a huge revenue driver for them now, but it will be in the future, I believe. The first
Jordan Gal:real product bet since Jobs. Right?
Brian Casel:It's it's Yeah. I mean, this is a this honestly is like a Steve Jobs move that Tim Cook. And and I think this is the kind of thing that, like, you gotta give a ton of respect to Tim Cook. Like, this is the CEO's call to be like, we're doing this. It's it's a little out of the left field.
Brian Casel:People are gonna probably hate it in different ways and we're doing it anyway. And we're shipping it with bugs. We're shipping it with shortcomings. You gotta put a battery in your pocket to use this thing. Like, that's ridiculous.
Brian Casel:But they shipped it anyway. You know? Like for Apple to do that, I think, is awesome and and it's pretty exciting.
Jordan Gal:I like it. Yeah. The the and the FOMO, you know, is strong, which is important for adoption almost like the remember how Tesla came out with, like, the unaffordable
Brian Casel:Yep. Exactly.
Jordan Gal:The the sports version, and then it made its way mainstream. And then at some point, you're like, oh, shit. I can afford a Tesla.
Brian Casel:I was and I was hearing these guys, Gruber and Thompson talking about, like, the first version of the iPhone, if you remember that. I think I probably got, like, the second or third version. But the first one was terrible. Like Really? Oh, dude.
Brian Casel:I mean, so in so many way like, first of all, the first version did not have an App Store. There was no App Store. The other thing that they were talking about, and I I sort of remember this, in the earliest version, when you scroll a webpage on the first iPhone, they didn't have the tech enough to advanced enough to be able to render the entire web page. So if you scroll down
Jordan Gal:Oh, it would wait.
Brian Casel:You would see, like, a checkered background before they could even load the rest of the web page into into memory.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. No. I was just think of the Apple experience, but No.
Brian Casel:Yeah. But they shipped it anyway. Right? And then and then it became the iPhone. Like, best product of all time.
Brian Casel:So yeah. No. I think it's gonna and especially hearing about, like, what it's like to, like, having, a work environment in the thing. And then and then, yeah, like, once all entertainment like, what I am really excited about is the idea of sports, like, seeing, like, live sports in in, like, a VR
Jordan Gal:That's pretty interesting.
Brian Casel:World. Like, being able to, like, sit courtside at the Knicks one, you know, through through the VR on any game you want. Like, that sounds kind of insane. Mhmm. You know?
Jordan Gal:Mhmm. And you can see how events and venues can see that as a new revenue channel, and so that just gives everyone access. Yep. If if that means I don't have to spend $10,000 to let my kids watch the Taylor Swift concert, I'm I'm all in
Brian Casel:on Yes. And, you know, what's what's also interesting is Roblox, how how much this thing has grown. My kids, you know, they they they make and they ship these these Roblox games. And, like, now, like, all these big brands are, like, advertising inside Roblox. Like, you could like, my younger one, like, made made, like, a McDonald's in in Roblox land.
Brian Casel:Interesting. Okay. Look. I was I was watching I was watching the NFL game the other day, and and and they had on this TV screen, like, a QR code to scan some like, you get some, I don't know, some some Chiefs thing, like, in in Roblox, like, if you scan this thing. I don't know what it was, but, like, they're promoting this, like, on national television.
Brian Casel:Like, it's such a weird world we're in now.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Look. The the metaverse is actually gonna happen. It's just a few years away. It's not when everyone thought it was gonna happen.
Jordan Gal:As evidenced by our boy Zuckerberg back on top. The the stock price I
Brian Casel:saw that headline today.
Jordan Gal:Out of control. It's it's it's very interesting to see.
Brian Casel:Crazy.
Jordan Gal:Alright, dude. It's Friday.
Brian Casel:Alright, dude.
Jordan Gal:Let's call it a day. I got my wife's birthday coming up. A birthday season. My wife, my daughter, then Valentine's Day, then myself, my other daughter. It's things are crazy.
Jordan Gal:I'm just like Beautiful. I'm walking through a minefield of screwing up present expectations. It's like a man's man's worst nightmare.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah, man. I'm I think I'm feeling good enough to get on this plane and go out to Colorado in two days and do another one of these big snows, and I'm psyched, man. Yeah. Hope you feel got it.
Brian Casel:See you. Alright. Later, bro.
