Bootstrapped Web

Brian Casel: 00:16

Hey. It's Bootstrapped Web. It is Friday, and we are just in time for the landscaper who's driving right by my window right now. So hopefully, that's not hopefully, this this audio will be usable. Perfect, man.

Jordan Gal: 00:28

What's up, bro? Yep. How you doing, man? Good. You know, coming up on Memorial Day weekend and

Brian Casel: 00:35

Yes, I will

Jordan Gal: 00:36

be on the sidelines of a soccer tournament about an hour away from here.

Brian Casel: 00:40

Beautiful. So,

Jordan Gal: 00:41

yeah. That's that's fine. But we'll have a good time.

Brian Casel: 00:44

Yeah. That that'll be fun. Get outside. It will be

Jordan Gal: 00:47

that's right. It does force you to just hang out outside. Yeah. That's it. We're like almost done with school here.

Jordan Gal: 00:52

The kids have like single digits.

Brian Casel: 00:54

Yeah. We're Yeah. Two weeks. We're like we're like two two weeks away or something from the end. Yeah.

Brian Casel: 00:59

They've got the long weekend this weekend. I'm sure we'll do a lot of time spent outside. Hopefully, kinda relaxing because my back has been all screwed up but Uh-oh.

Jordan Gal: 01:08

Yeah. I've had some weird health things. Next week, I'm gonna get a CT scan. A calcium CT scan which looks at like the calcium buildup in your arteries. Yep.

Jordan Gal: 01:19

I was convinced by oh, what's his name? Brad? Brad Galent or no? He's one of the besties friends, you know, from the All In podcast. One of their Mhmm.

Jordan Gal: 01:28

Friends, Brad. He just talks about it a lot on Twitter about like, you know, relatively young men getting the skin and kind of being shocked that they have issues. So I've definitely been warned that it can create some false stress and lead you down a path. I'm I'm entering it carefully but you know, a $150. I feel like that's good.

Jordan Gal: 01:48

I just did my physical. Got my blood drawn this morning. Just trying to Get

Brian Casel: 01:51

it get it all checked out. Right?

Jordan Gal: 01:52

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Casel: 01:53

Yeah, man. I I mean this year it's it's it's so weird like getting old sometimes. Part of it is is just getting old and part of it is is just the stress that that we put ourselves through, at least for me. Mhmm. But yeah, this year has been weird.

Brian Casel: 02:08

Just one It seems like one health, physical health issue after another for me and that is just not normal. And even right now with my back, it's like an ongoing like It's been over a month of of back pain that I'm I usually have little little muscle strains and things that go away after two two days or so but this one is just stuck around so now I'm doing like physical therapy twice a week and getting this hammered out and it's just annoying.

Jordan Gal: 02:34

Mhmm. It's it's tricky because as soon as something goes wrong, you then have to stop your regular exercise routine. Yeah. That's maintaining

Brian Casel: 02:44

your Exactly. I was in great shape last year. I I was doing workouts like every day for over a year and and then in the last six weeks, my my back has has gotten to a point where I just can't do strength training. The only thing that I'm doing now is is walking. I I walk about two miles a day.

Brian Casel: 03:03

That's a Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 03:05

Yeah. Tricky. I I I still am keeping up with my twice a week. But I had what felt like a possible like hernia type of a thing and and then all of a sudden you should become very aware like how careful to be with weights and how much strain like, I don't like dead lifting. I know people are super into it.

Jordan Gal: 03:23

But every time I I don't like it either. Feel like on the verge of injury and I don't understand why it would make like, there are other things to do that keep up.

Brian Casel: 03:31

I never liked it either. I I I enjoy the other movements in strength training like the like squats and bench press and things like that. And and I was doing like a circuit thing. And I would get around to doing deadlifts because I just feel like it should be part of the program, but I always hate it. Like I I just like don't enjoy that movement.

Jordan Gal: 03:48

Yeah. I think it's a matter of technique also. When I've done it Yeah. With my brother who's like super physical fitness man who owns Crunch gyms and he knows the exact right way to do things.

Brian Casel: 03:58

Yeah. I know you get like that that like, what do they call it? Like the octagon deadlift bar instead of straight.

Jordan Gal: 04:04

That's where I use

Brian Casel: 04:04

it.

Jordan Gal: 04:05

Yeah. Anyway,

Brian Casel: 04:07

that's our that's our lifting podcast today.

Jordan Gal: 04:09

Yeah. There you go. No. But I one thing that I do have on my on my mind in terms of like some fun stuff outside of business is end of school means the beginning of summer. Means kids have gone away to camp.

Brian Casel: 04:24

Oh. Are are they doing like sleepaway or

Jordan Gal: 04:26

sleepaway sleepaway and that meant two weeks of just wifey and I hanging out and going to Charleston, South Carolina.

Brian Casel: 04:34

Nice. And

Jordan Gal: 04:34

this year, we're going to Mexico City.

Brian Casel: 04:36

Beautiful.

Jordan Gal: 04:37

So to stay up late and look around for travel in for a trip that is not obligatory, like I gotta go see my family because this event is happening. Yeah. This is just like just for fun. Yeah. And it's got it's got me very excited looking forward to it.

Jordan Gal: 04:52

I hear great things about Mexico City. We've got ourselves a nice fancy hotel like Yeah. Just so pumped.

Brian Casel: 04:57

Yeah. I mean, you know we're all about planning the travel. We we actually have our summer trip booked now. So we're gonna be coming coming to your neck of the woods. We're we're flying into Chicago Cool.

Brian Casel: 05:06

In July. Got an Airbnb in Downtown Chicago for a couple days and then we're renting a car and driving around the lake up to the Upper Peninsula Of Michigan. Okay.

Jordan Gal: 05:17

Are you going? You you're going to the Michigan side? All the way up.

Brian Casel: 05:21

We're Yeah. We're driving east.

Pippin Williamson: 05:22

Okay.

Jordan Gal: 05:22

Because you can also get to the UP to go the Wisconsin side

Brian Casel: 05:25

of Yeah. West. What I read like you you wanna go to Michigan side.

Jordan Gal: 05:28

Get to Michigan in July Yeah. That stretch of

Brian Casel: 05:31

So we're so we're coastline up up the East side of the Michigan Lake Lake Michigan and then and then you know, up to the to the UP. Okay. We got like a really nice like new construction Airbnb on the lake up there in in UP. It's a trip up Looks super fun.

Jordan Gal: 05:47

That's

Brian Casel: 05:48

never been to that part of the I've been to Chicago. I used to live in Chicago but Right. I've never been to Upper Peninsula. So, it should be Okay.

Jordan Gal: 05:56

Well, we we've got some things to talk about outside of the podcast on Yeah.

Brian Casel: 05:59

I'm sure. Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 06:00

My best friend from college lives in Traverse City.

Brian Casel: 06:03

Yeah. So, we're gonna be passing through there. Yep. Wanna stay

Jordan Gal: 06:07

there. That's one of those stops that's that's worth spending a night or two. Yeah. I don't know what your plans are but that the food, the wine, the vibe there.

Brian Casel: 06:15

Yeah. Know there's some wine tasting there and there's that that like, you know, what Sand Dunes State Park?

Jordan Gal: 06:21

Yes.

Brian Casel: 06:21

Or National Park? Sleeping Sleeping Bear. Yep.

Jordan Gal: 06:23

Yep. Alright. Awesome. See? Summer.

Jordan Gal: 06:27

Hell yeah. Alright. Let's talk some biz. Alright. Let's talk some biz.

Jordan Gal: 06:33

Let me just start off. Just a little quick story for me. Mhmm. The domain drama, it's it's it's we're getting a good ending.

Brian Casel: 06:42

Okay.

Jordan Gal: 06:42

Yes. I'm I'm we're getting the domain that we wanted. Oh, the original one? The original one. It came back.

Jordan Gal: 06:49

So I spent more money on domains than I meant to. Okay? Because I bought the one I wanted. Then two weeks into the process, we hear we hear back that, oh, sorry. Domain's actually not available.

Jordan Gal: 07:00

We're very sorry. This happens when it's actually sold, but marketplaces haven't taken them taken it down. To me, I think the owners know

Brian Casel: 07:07

what they're doing

Jordan Gal: 07:08

and were super shady.

Brian Casel: 07:09

Mhmm.

Jordan Gal: 07:10

And then we got upset because that was the domain we wanted. So we went and bought two alternative domains that were similar. Spent another, you know, few thousand bucks there. And then we said, okay. I guess we'll settle for these.

Jordan Gal: 07:21

That's good enough. And then the original domain owners came back to us and said, we want a 100 k. I was like, g f y.

Brian Casel: 07:31

You know, I I've heard only super shady stories about people who do domaining as as a living.

Jordan Gal: 07:38

Like It's kind of

Brian Casel: 07:39

It's the scammiest, like most shadiest corner of Internet business

Jordan Gal: 07:45

I I think it's because

Brian Casel: 07:46

Aside from, you know, like porn. Right. Well, there

Jordan Gal: 07:50

I think it's just inherent in in the it's not the it's not so much the people, it's just the the position that they're put in. You just are better off the incentives are toward being shady and obfuscating and negotiating. So that's just like the deal. Yeah. So there.

Brian Casel: 08:07

It's it's just like shady negotiation. That's their this whole

Jordan Gal: 08:11

is look, it's exactly what happened. We bought it for, let's just call it x, and then they came back and wanted a $100,000. And I said, absolutely not. And I I basically went back to x plus $5,000. And then they said, okay, we'll take that plus a minority interest in your risk.

Brian Casel: 08:29

Remember this is like, what? Yep.

Jordan Gal: 08:32

And then I said, no. And then a few days later, they came back and said, okay, just just the dollar amount. We're good. Right? Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 08:38

So after we've already bought other domains for thousands of dollars.

Brian Casel: 08:42

Oh, yeah.

Jordan Gal: 08:43

But but we want this one. So we came back. We said, fine. Just do it already. And then then we came across escrow.com.

Jordan Gal: 08:51

What a disaster of an experience.

Brian Casel: 08:55

Just I saw some some tweets from you about this.

Jordan Gal: 08:57

I I rarely tweet about like bad service or something I'm complaining about. But this was I like I can't it's still not done. The only reason I I feel able to talk about it is because now at least I know the domain is now with escrow.com. So it's been transferred over. Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 09:11

But this is what you do for a living. Every touch Yeah.

Brian Casel: 09:15

It's like you had one job, escrow.com.

Jordan Gal: 09:17

One job. That's it. Every bit of their communication leaves room for interpretation. Nothing is clear. Even when it's like we're awaiting your payment, here is the payment information.

Jordan Gal: 09:28

And I'm like, is it a wire or is it an ACH, guys? I don't know. You're drives

Brian Casel: 09:34

me up the

Jordan Gal: 09:34

wall like It me it drove me nuts. You're Citibank. You're in The US. Obviously, ACH. Why would I wire you?

Jordan Gal: 09:41

That's what I do internationally. Yeah. So I set up an ACH. I let them know. Sorry.

Jordan Gal: 09:45

We actually don't accept ACH. You'll have to wait until your bank bounces it back to you. Like, goddamn it. I had to wait another few business days. Finally, it got canceled.

Jordan Gal: 09:54

I still don't have the money back. I sent them a wire. It's like unreal.

Brian Casel: 09:58

You know, I hate being that guy who who has to put out the angry tweet to to complain to some large company about Right. About something that's going wrong. I I did it a couple weeks ago

Brennan Dunn: 10:08

with lame.

Brian Casel: 10:10

It it's it's lame. It's annoying. But like, I hate when like, that's the only way to to make this right with the service whatever you're do Like, I I I sold an old Apple Watch on eBay a couple weeks back.

Jordan Gal: 10:21

Okay.

Brian Casel: 10:23

And I think the buyer was trying to scan Like, he he received like UPS shows it was delivered, showed me a photo of the thing delivered on the guy's doorstep. Right. Clearly received. Clearly received. He's like, I I You you sent a box that was empty.

Brian Casel: 10:36

Oh my gosh. And so he he's filing like complaints with eBay. They're putting my funds on hold. They're putting my whole twenty year history of of eBay. They're putting that in in jeopardy.

Brian Casel: 10:46

Oh my I'm like, guys, this is ridiculous. And and I and then I'm going like like, I'm trying to avoid the public shaming thing and I and I do the the customer service thing like time after time and it just keeps cycling back to like my funds are on hold and all this bullshit. And then I did a tweet at eBay and like I I guess this is the end of my twenty year history of being an eBay customer. And and that's what sent it up Oh, a flagpole and they took care of it.

Jordan Gal: 11:10

Sir, please DM DM us, you know, privately.

Brian Casel: 11:13

Yeah. Had I did that and then and then finally they like took care of it. And it was like, oh my god. Really?

Jordan Gal: 11:18

Mhmm. Mhmm. Frustrating. Yep. Alright.

Jordan Gal: 11:21

So sorry for my tangent there. But we're we're hours away from securing this domain. And then it's it's funny starting a new business how much the domain you need it for everything. You need it for your g Suite account, then you can start opening up new accounts. Then you can create a go to, you know, what's it called?

Jordan Gal: 11:37

The Google Tag Manager, Google Analytics. All the things that you need Mhmm. To actually like get into the process of of launching the site and and what you need for it.

Brian Casel: 11:46

Yeah. All that all that fun stuff.

Jordan Gal: 11:48

All that fun stuff.

Brian Casel: 11:51

Let's see. You know, so I think last week Here's the funny thing about this podcast. We are

Jordan Gal: 12:00

Okay. Tell me.

Brian Casel: 12:02

We are all intents and purposes, we're live here. Like, we're recording right now at 11:30AM on a Friday. I'm gonna publish this thing probably by 12:30, 01:00 today. Yeah. Like, we don't do any editing.

Brian Casel: 12:15

Like, it's just And we don't do do any planning either. It's just like off the cuff like whatever's Whatever happens to be on our mind today, whatever on any given Friday, that's what you're hearing on this podcast. Snapshot. Snapshot.

Jordan Gal: 12:28

In the roller coaster. Literally, you know those Disney, like, photos of you just, with your tongue out in the middle of the roller coaster? Yep. That's what this podcast is.

Brian Casel: 12:35

Looks super fun on the photo, but but they don't show, the the waiting in line for two hours to get on that thing. Right? So I think last Friday, was like pretty I I probably sounded pretty excited about this new product idea. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Casel: 12:50

A few days went by. I'm I'm kinda cooled off from it now.

Jordan Gal: 12:53

The It's cycle, baby. It's the it's the emotional you know cycle of of a new idea encountering it and then sobering up and then looking at it more soberly.

Brian Casel: 13:01

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it it it's it's still an idea that I that I think I might do at some point in some form. But you know, what I did was I I put together a landing page for it. I passed it around to a few friends.

Brian Casel: 13:13

And I think across the board, it sort of confirmed that at least the way that I was messaging it or focusing it, it just didn't hit the mark across the board and it Mhmm. And and I think even even I felt that by the time I was finished with it and started passing it around. Okay. And and so so there was that. Like it it didn't feel like it was solving enough of a pain for it to be like, oh, that's interesting.

Brian Casel: 13:41

I I I wanna hear more. It also wasn't really niched down. But I think it also led to a little bit of me pulling back on the whole idea of of getting into a new idea. I I I still think I am gonna I am open to new ideas but I, you know, I felt myself starting to go a little bit too hard. Like heating Like overheating on a on a new idea very quickly.

Brian Casel: 14:08

And again, trying to like get back to a more balanced, calm approach to what I'm doing in general in my work. Okay. And I just yeah. Just a lot more patient. Just going a lot slower in general.

Brian Casel: 14:28

And, you know, the other thing is I I am still running Clarity Flow and I think a few things came up that have me a little bit more energized on Clarity Flow to work on some growth projects there. By no means, I'm not going back to like being like all all in all the time on that. I think the thing is this week where where my headspace is at today, this Friday, which you know, it changes week to week. But but but today, it's it's a recognition of Look, I I have a couple like conflicting realities that I Mhmm. That I'm constantly dealing with.

Brian Casel: 15:10

And like reality number one is that like I have Clarity Flow, that's a SaaS product that has certain aspects of it are working. And it has been working and it has been kinda ticking up in the right direction. And I'm still working on it. Like that's reality number one. Is I still spend a significant part of my week like working on Clarity Flow.

Brian Casel: 15:33

Whether it's product work, support stuff, or or you know, planning out some some changes in in our marketing and positioning and messaging. That's one. And then the other one is I'm I'm consulting this this year. I brought that back into my mix and so right there that that makes my my time have some like context switching, which isn't always great, but I But it's sort of a reality and it and it brings a benefit of like, I I'm I'm in a much more slower and more sustainable model now than I was in the last few years. In the last few years, I was on this like runway model where I'm all in full time 100% on this one SaaS idea until it become until it hits a profitability mark and then we're and then we can be I think now I'm just back to like bootstrapper consulting and working on a product kind of thing.

Brian Casel: 16:27

And then, just the third reality is, I've been working on that one SaaS product for multiple years now and it hasn't gotten there. So, I am convinced that I have to be open to new ideas. Know? I'm Yep. And and and that doesn't even mean like looking for the next idea to replace the first idea and I'm not trying to be all in on anything.

Brian Casel: 16:49

I'm just I'm just trying to have a balance of things and and it and that also doesn't mean, like like I said, like I'm I'm pulling back on going too hard on that one idea. I think I was thinking about that idea as if it could be like a new fully formed startup company. And that's, I think for me, like the wrong way to think about new ideas. I'm I'm thinking about new ideas now as much smaller, little side project ideas that I could throw out there as like little seeds of something that could become something later.

Jordan Gal: 17:29

Okay. I I've seen more of this on Twitter. I look at someone's profile after I find a post of theirs interesting, and they will list out three or four products with the MRR of each one. Yeah. This Right.

Jordan Gal: 17:43

These like building car with bootstrappers. And it's like, this thing's at one k. This thing's at four k. This thing's at 40 k.

Brian Casel: 17:50

Exactly.

Jordan Gal: 17:50

And very often, they don't have an explanation for why this one worked. This one just worked. And they openly say, I just kept trying different things. Yeah. And then all of a sudden this worked.

Jordan Gal: 18:02

What I find interesting is that one key characteristic of the ones that worked is the speed. So the the The best ideas come back.

Brian Casel: 18:14

It's something that I've I've noticed. Yes.

Jordan Gal: 18:16

Once they do work within three months, they are overtaking things that that they spent months on. Yes. So it because it

Brian Casel: 18:22

hits a nerve. It it hits something.

Jordan Gal: 18:24

It's a nerve. Right? It's this it's this market fit thing that you cannot see and feel from the outside. It requires putting the seed out there, throwing it out into the wind to see if it catches. That is at least is the interpretation from the outside that that I'm getting.

Brian Casel: 18:40

Yes. I I see the same thing. And I You know, the the other thing that I'm thinking a lot about right now, I just wrote up a little thing, I'm sending it to my newsletter this weekend, is what I'm thinking about is like idea magnets. Like I I think of these every every small new idea as like, it's a magnet that will attract the feedback that I need to ultimately get to the right version of this idea. Clarity Flow started as zip message and even zip message started as a very different concept than than what zip message was.

Brian Casel: 19:13

Like, I started like the the original kernel of the idea for zip message was, I want a link it was for customer support purposes. Like I wanted a link that I could send to customers so that they can record their screen and send me back what they're seeing. And and I sort of put out the idea as that. And then I started to learn that like, it's sort of interesting for that, but it's more interesting for the asynchronous conversation back and forth. And so then, Zip Message became that.

Brian Casel: 19:44

And then I learned even more that like, of all the different customer groups that resonate with this, it's coaches that resonate the most and that have the most long term potential. So let's really zero in on on them. Mhmm. None of that would have happened if I didn't just ship the the earliest version of that product. Yep.

Brian Casel: 20:04

You know, so like that that's this idea of like, you know, because I I think that there's this more traditional startup advice that you hear, which is like, if you're gonna do a new idea, you've gotta have a fully formed like theory, target customer, niche use case, problem problem dialed in, validated, you know, before you write any code.

Jordan Gal: 20:27

Right. Founder Like. Market fit. Have to understand the problem. You have to be building for yourself.

Jordan Gal: 20:33

You need to think of that the market's big enough. You can't lose a feature. It has to be a platform. Like, there is a tornado and maybe a hurricane is a more accurate analogy of advice. And it is impossible to know what Impossible.

Jordan Gal: 20:46

Will work for you.

Brian Casel: 20:47

It it You know

Jordan Gal: 20:48

There is very little connection other than like universal truths.

Brian Casel: 20:51

Right. Right. And you know the other thing especially for like bootstrapped businesses and I I agree with this that like the best form of a bootstrapped SaaS company is like a niched like something in a niche vertical. Right? Like, know, some something that solves a relatively unknown problem to most of the world, but if you are on the inside of this particular industry, and you then you know about the specific pain that this vertical has, and there are still opportunities to solve those pains with software.

Brian Casel: 21:22

Right? Now, to someone like me, and I would imagine someone a lot of people who are like me listening to this, who are just software designers, software developers. You're in the the SaaS tech software industry. So this is like the most crowded, competitive, know, oversaturated space to be to to be aware of problems to solve. Mhmm.

Brian Casel: 21:49

You know, like we talked about, like launching another email marketing SaaS is just it's it's gonna be an uphill battle. Yep. So how do how does somebody like me find a vertical that is foreign to me? Right? And I Mhmm.

Brian Casel: 22:05

If I don't have a brother-in-law who works in some niche vertical that I can have like an insider track on, or if I don't have a previous career in some other vertical, how do I How do we do that? Like, okay, you can You'll find it like, you go onto Reddit and you and you scour the subreddits and you find people talking about pains, or you cold call small businesses, and what pains can I solve for you with software? Yep. You're shooting in the dark. Yeah.

Brian Casel: 22:30

For real. You know, like you're you're look you could you could spend forever driving yourself crazy, like looking for things that seem like maybe pain points but you don't know if there's really a business here. Yeah. You know, to me the more practical solution in 2024 is spend a month, build a small idea, put it out there. Maybe it's broad and it's not niched down yet.

Brian Casel: 22:54

It's it's just you're just going off of a hunch. Maybe it's a scratch of your own itch or you're observing some pattern somewhere that makes you think there could be something here. Let me just build and ship something. And if you have a hypothesis on like maybe customer groups a b or c might might be good for this. Let's put it in front of them.

Brian Casel: 23:12

Then you can start to learn. Like, you you learn number one like who, like which customers actually resonate with it and you learn what. Like, okay, of all the four or five features that I that I think are important for this, it's actually just this one feature that people have come are coming for. Mhmm. That to me is like, it's it's more of a instead of like scouring and scrolling through these sites looking for pain points to solve, you just put something out there and that's your magnet to attract the true believers who can who can point you to what the final version of this thing should be.

Jordan Gal: 23:45

And the feedback. I would say that leans into a specific strength of people who can build product. Yeah. Because what my process ends up being very much impacted by not being able to build myself. And so my process ends up being looking at different markets and actually starting off at the competitor landscape.

Jordan Gal: 24:10

Yep. And looking at what other companies are doing, I get this sense of like it's almost like I'm trying to judge my own jealousy and envy. How envious am I of this other business? And when I get all those juices like, oh my god, this looks amazing because the characteristics it has. Because the market's really big and it's not that expensive but it's not that cheap and it's still self serve and it's a new market and it looks easy to do.

Jordan Gal: 24:40

Like whatever that thing is, mixture that gets me to lean in and be envious of that product position. And that is where I end up starting my search on are there other competitors doing this? Oh, there's a there's a, you know, a little group of people that have discovered this. Let me go listen to podcasts with the founders. Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 24:58

Let me get a sense of their confidence and how much they boast. How confident are they about their prospects, about their competitors.

Brian Casel: 25:09

Even that, like I found that like I didn't discover entire huge categories of software products and competitor groups until I started learning about coaches. Like, and I wouldn't have learned about coaches unless I had a product that just a few coaches happened to find interesting.

Jordan Gal: 25:30

Mhmm.

Brian Casel: 25:30

You know? And and I wouldn't have had that happen unless I had shipped a a like suboptimal version of this product first. You know, like, it it's like one thing leads to another but like Yeah. It's Yeah. And and like, I've done the same thing of of like, of looking for versions of my product based on what the competitors are are are doing.

Brian Casel: 25:51

And that's a really good approach. But I like, there's a lot that if you if you just start from like ground zero, like my idea, I'm open to anything. It's it's almost like just too too wide. And I Yeah. I only I can only look to like the the big known categories.

Brian Casel: 26:06

The the CRMs, the

Jordan Gal: 26:08

Yes.

Brian Casel: 26:08

Whatever, the the sales things like that. But then then once you get into like having inroads with customers who seem to be interested in something, then you start to understand like which tools what's in your stack? What are you paying for? Oh, there's a there's a whole category over here, you know.

Jordan Gal: 26:22

Yes. And then that means there there's there's budget for it because people are using competitors, they're using alternatives, they're using something else. If we just go further down the conveyor belt of this process Mhmm. Right? Now now, let's say you threw something out there.

Jordan Gal: 26:37

Right? What what what we're about to do is I mean, what this is, you know, this is not like hypothetical here. Yeah. Like, we're going into a space that we are not that familiar with. I don't have this like founder market fit thing from experience.

Jordan Gal: 26:50

So you launch. You put this thing out into the wind to see if it catches, if if, you know, a market grabs it. From from there, I'm I'm worried because the natural human instinct is to hope that it works the way it is. You you hope that you're right. Right?

Jordan Gal: 27:09

I showed you our website. Like, I I hope that that's right and that resonates, but the process of throwing it out there and then getting feedback and then adjusting, I I am worried about. Because it's very hard to tell when you should stick with your vision and when you should adjust.

Brian Casel: 27:25

Yeah. Mhmm.

Jordan Gal: 27:26

Very tough. Everyone gives you conflicting information. The worst thing that happens is the most common things that happen which is it kinda works. Some people are paying you.

Brian Casel: 27:34

Yeah. Yeah. It kinda works. Yeah. I don't know.

Brian Casel: 27:38

I mean, that that's the toughest thing. I know that I've I've started to direct all of our product roadmap decisions based on which features will help us grow. That means if there are features people are cancelling because we don't have them or features that pre sales people are asking a lot about. Clearly it's it's a big check mark in their sales process that they need to check off. And if we're not checking that box, we should be thinking about how we can check that box.

Brian Casel: 28:10

That's how I'm thinking about it. Mhmm.

Jordan Gal: 28:13

Yeah.

Brian Casel: 28:15

Yeah. But you know, there there have definitely been, I've been mistaken or I've misinterpreted that multiple times. Like where a lot of people are talking about a thing and then we build the thing.

Jordan Gal: 28:26

Mhmm.

Brian Casel: 28:26

And that probably helped with sales. But then I find that like they're not actually using that thing very often as as much as I thought they would, you know.

Jordan Gal: 28:34

Yeah. Very very interesting. My my approach for the next like two three months is to just be very will very willing to to basically waste money in an effort to learn.

Brian Casel: 28:48

Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 28:49

So it is too early to run ads, but we're just gonna run some ads anyway. Just let's like, let's let's get

Brian Casel: 28:55

I think ads is good to to to get some data. Some like some like baseline data on like, alright, the first time we ran ads, learned this and then when you come back to like double down on it, you you have something to build on.

Jordan Gal: 29:06

Yes. And and we'll do some outreach and we'll we'll just do a bunch of stuff to get eyeballs on it and get the feedback. Now, if we if we wanna get a little more concrete, the this week has been categorized. So first, let me just say, we chose a direction. Right?

Jordan Gal: 29:24

I think last week we talked about I wasn't sure which direction to go in. If we should start cheap and higher quantity and then move up as features expanded Mhmm. Into higher price tiers. Or if we should go down, if we should start with fewer people, more intimate relationship conversations with each potential customer, start relatively higher in price. And then as we worked out the bugs and understood the product and the market better, we then open up the lower tier.

Jordan Gal: 29:54

So that second one, that's the direction we're gonna go in. So that was very helpful to make that decision because then that helps make the decisions around your offer, your CTA, your your funnel, like what what does this look like?

Brian Casel: 30:09

So more of like a high like high touch High and then and then make your way toward the lower touch.

Jordan Gal: 30:15

I wanna get to lower touch. Mhmm. But I think I'm acknowledging that we shouldn't rush it. Yeah. And we should kinda follow best practice advice in this scenario and actually say, no, be patient.

Jordan Gal: 30:26

You know, I I looked the other day. It's a trip. It's been thirty days.

Brian Casel: 30:31

What? On this new idea.

Jordan Gal: 30:33

On this new idea. Yeah. And that and that is ridiculous because you know that that's so fast. So I'm try I'm trying to give myself a little bit of perspective not the daily or weekly perspective but if you just look at it in months like we're so we're being so fast right now. So it's okay that we don't rush to self serve low touch.

Brian Casel: 30:54

Yeah. You gotta learn you gotta learn like the the base the basics of of what it is. Right?

Jordan Gal: 30:58

Yes. And then so so myself and the product manager, Jordan, on our team right. Jessica's out. Jessica's on maternity leave. Okay.

Jordan Gal: 31:09

Amazing opportunity for for the product manager, Jordan, to step up. And they are so we're we're having this very interesting on like real time with the heat turned all the way up to figure out our working relationship on how to make sure that she feels very able to, you know, express her opinions

Brian Casel: 31:33

Mhmm.

Jordan Gal: 31:34

To ping me when when necessary, not feel like like like it's a bother Mhmm. For me to be able to be critical because my general style is to is to let let them do their thing. Yeah. But that can also be seen as, hey, we're not talking enough. So it's it's like very very real time figuring this thing out.

Jordan Gal: 31:53

But those product decisions specifically around who we're going after first unlocked all these other decisions around what the offer should be. And are we doing a wait list? No. We're doing a early access. So all these other things that were necessary in order to launch the website next week were were came out of the decision on who we're targeting first.

Brian Casel: 32:18

You know, I think we were talking just offline before this, and it's something that I've been thinking about too lately. The idea of like how how painful enough is this problem? Mhmm. You know, I As I was evaluating that that idea I was talking about last week, I started to realize like, yeah, it checks off some of my boxes that I really like in a in a product idea like the set it and forget it thing that I've talked about before. But on the pain scale, I started to realize like this is more of an additive.

Brian Casel: 32:50

Like there it's not replacing another tool. And you and I think you might look at that like, well, that's good. You you don't have to convince a customer of like, you you know, you don't have to leave these other tools. You can just buy this. I if if it's if it's the choice between like selling a tool that is like has low switching cost, meaning you don't have to switch off of another tool, you don't have to cancel another tool in order to use my tool.

Brian Casel: 33:18

Mhmm. Versus like, yeah. This is an alternative to that other tool that you are paying for. You're gonna have to switch off of that to use to use mine.

Jordan Gal: 33:28

Okay.

Brian Casel: 33:28

Yes. Yes. The switching cost is higher, but I think I like that better.

Jordan Gal: 33:32

Because there's there's budget. There's in your head you're spending x and you're

Brian Casel: 33:36

not budget. There's already proof that you have been paying for it. And it it's proof that it's a painful enough problem. Like it's essential enough. And Yeah.

Brian Casel: 33:45

So it's a it's a harder lift on the sales and activation and onboarding side. But it's healthier

Jordan Gal: 33:52

longer There's more of an existing market. We're we're on the other side of that risk.

Brian Casel: 33:56

Mhmm.

Jordan Gal: 33:56

Right? We are saying the spend that we're looking at is that is that businesses are spending a lot of money on advertising. And and that's really where the budget that we're targeting is. Mhmm. It's if you're spending $10,000 a month, then are you motivated to spend another $100 a month to make it more effective or to, you know, basically get a better return on that?

Brian Casel: 34:21

Yeah. But I think that you are like, they already are doing that. They already are paying for True. To like optimize their phone answering in some form. They like they have they have people answering it.

Brian Casel: 34:34

Right?

Jordan Gal: 34:38

Yeah. Yeah. That that's interesting. That's that's true. There there are alternatives that don't look like alternatives.

Brian Casel: 34:44

Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 34:44

I had a I had a very interesting conversation with someone. It's funny how how you learn about these things. Right. You, like, you know there are a lot of unknowns, and then sometimes it's comical slash embarrassing to to learn some things that seem so important.

Brian Casel: 35:02

Mhmm.

Jordan Gal: 35:03

But that's what this podcast is for, not having any shame around that. Yeah. So what I one of the things I learned recently was that the majority of businesses signing up for this type of a solution around AI voice are doing so because they don't like their outsourced third party answering service.

Brian Casel: 35:22

Mhmm.

Jordan Gal: 35:24

So that can be, you know, $500 to $5,000 a month and you're paying other people and it's really expensive and you don't find it effective. And that might actually be the ideal customer, not the net new, we don't have anything right now where someone internal is handling this and it's kinda fine.

Brian Casel: 35:44

Like without knowing anything about your space, like that sounds right to me that like it's it's bet it's To me, it it seems like a better sales proposition to to say like, you're already allocating hundreds or thousands a month with weak results. What if we could like cut that budget in half and give you better results? Like that's Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 36:05

I mean, it's beginning of a

Brian Casel: 36:06

business process.

Jordan Gal: 36:07

Know? You you recall one of the reasons I got really interested in AI is after going to the March capital like Montgomery Summit event and seeing the the the movement of budget from human resources, labor, people

Brian Casel: 36:26

Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 36:26

To AI is is the initial adoption. It is is the elimination of budgets on people and going toward tech. So that is exactly what we're doing. Maybe that has been lost in the sauce for me over the last few weeks. But if you take a step back from a macro point of view and you don't care about what the business actually does, the most important thing is they're spending $5,000 a month now and you're gonna come to them and say it's $250 a month and they're gonna say, hell yes.

Jordan Gal: 36:54

That is the way I'm thinking about all of my expenses.

Brian Casel: 36:56

Yeah. Yeah. Think like coming this probably applies to your thing and and and like new product ideas that I look at. But I've seen this with Clarify too. Is that like, know, those Like out of all the ideas that you put out there, why why does one start to really hit?

Brian Casel: 37:15

Or or at least one that you can start to really learn, like useful learning after useful learning. And I just keep thinking about the fact that like, when you put out the the first version or an earlier version, it's so far from optimal. Like it's so far from the right sales copy and the headline and and the website and and even the right mix of features. You don't have it all correct yet. But some target customers get get through your funnel despite all that.

Brian Casel: 37:47

Yeah. And they

Jordan Gal: 37:47

see anyway.

Brian Casel: 37:48

They find First of all, found you even though you're not speaking to them perfectly yet. Second of all, that you have all these features that they don't even want, but they have one or two that the you have one or two that that they do want. So they're like sifting their way through all those features and they're using the one that they Like they found their way to you. Like I keep thinking a lot about that. It's like Mhmm.

Brian Casel: 38:08

What And and we're like dialing in on customers for clarity flow, but also like customers for new ideas. It's like what is Like like just just like noticing

Jordan Gal: 38:21

Uh-huh. That

Brian Casel: 38:22

there there is that pattern with the early adopters. You know.

Jordan Gal: 38:24

Yeah. Okay. Okay. I I wanna I wanna sit on that for a second. Bring it back to the concept of throwing out new things and not knowing.

Jordan Gal: 38:31

There is I think that is directly related to a relatively experienced entrepreneur. They're they're in the arena. They they know how to build product. They know how to create a a website. Like, you know, these full stack people that we love.

Jordan Gal: 38:48

The bootstrappers on Twitter that are doing stuff. Mhmm. There is an element to when you when you throw something out there, an idea that you are not sure if it's gonna work, that the right ones, as long as you give them a little bit of sunlight, just enough exposure, just enough water, they just go and you don't really understand why they're going. And and that is a very similar process to what we're doing. We're we're taking our time.

Jordan Gal: 39:19

We're building a website. We're doing all this other stuff. And then we put it out there and then the market will grab it despite all the things that you do wrong. Yep. You didn't do this perfect launch and this PR thing and you did like, none of that matters Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 39:35

Other than exposure to the market and they will see right through even bad copy, horrible marketing, ugly design, if it's painful enough and they want it enough and then they'll go and they'll share

Brian Casel: 39:48

it They're not satisfied with the Yes. Alternatives, you know.

Jordan Gal: 39:50

Yes. Yes. So there really is this this element of like what is the minimal amount of exposure that this solution needs to be grabbed onto by the people that want it most.

Brian Casel: 40:03

Yeah. And like just just enough for you to learn what that is and who they are, you know. Yeah. And then and then you can you're off to the races. You can dial in from there.

Brian Casel: 40:12

Know? Yeah. It see it seems so simple when we're just talking about like that. Like, it it takes me like years to really figure out like, even like seeing those signals from like hundreds of customers to really finally like draw the line between them like, oh, everyone's pointing to this. I get it now.

Jordan Gal: 40:25

You know? What what that makes me think of as as I'm like, you know, writing out and designing a landing page is what elements give you the best chance of that exposure? Is is it a video? Like, so we're creating a video. And so a video for a voice product is kind of a weird thing.

Jordan Gal: 40:47

We we found a few examples of competitors doing and we kind of grab the best highlights of each one. But it does feel very much like just put this thing at in the hero section and let people click play and if it hits them the right way, they're gonna want it.

Brian Casel: 41:02

Yeah. That's where I'm getting to I I'm I'm in this mode now and I'm I'm gonna be working on a bunch of stuff on Clarity Flow. Really aimed at just simplifying everything. You know, and just frankly just getting rid of getting rid of This is something I've been wanting to I I I I was working with a coach this week who who really helped me see the value in in this. Just like just get rid of the bullshit.

Brian Casel: 41:29

Like when it comes to marketing and messaging and positioning. Like don't put Don't make your customers jump through hoops. Don't try to trick them into landing on some long tail keyword page when really you just need them to be convinced on the home page. Like, is it so important to capture the email address in front of the in front of the demo? Why don't you just let them press play in the demo and and see the value, You know?

Brian Casel: 41:55

Yeah. Bring them in. You know? Yeah. And and there's a there's a whole line of things that I that I want to like just get get rid of the nonsense and just go straight to the value.

Brian Casel: 42:05

Because I I know that we have customers that that feel that value and and just trying to get rid of the bloat, know. And I think that like I Like especially when it comes to like SEO and and content and pages and websites and like, it's easy for us to over complicate all of that. And it's also very easy for a lot of like SEO agencies to convince us that it needs to be over complicated. I think in SaaS, it does not have to be over complicated. And, yeah.

Brian Casel: 42:36

If if you're solving the problem and you and if you know the things that your customers are looking for, show them that you have it and invite them in.

Jordan Gal: 42:45

What gets in the way of just doing the basics? Is it like this guilt thing that we think we're supposed to be doing something or there's a way that it should be done and

Brian Casel: 42:56

I think there's still drive ourselves toward that? I think that there's still this overhanging mindset and I'm definitely guilty of it. That like we still have to hack Google. Like we still have to like like play tricks in order to convince Google of this or that. And same thing with with how we treat customers, frankly.

Brian Casel: 43:18

Like, we have to convince them to opt in to some email address that we can send them a five day sequence and then and then convince them to come on a webinar and then jump through these hoops and then get to our product. Like Mhmm. Most people just wanna find your website and buy the thing. Just let them do that. You know?

Brian Casel: 43:32

And frankly, that just feels better to do anyway. But

Jordan Gal: 43:38

Isn't it it's it's funny. The it let me let me take a step back. One form of content that really bothers me is this like the immaculate breakdown of everything that went right. You're like, we're gonna talk to the, you know, head of growth at Uber and they're gonna tell us how they took over the country city by city.

Brian Casel: 44:01

Yeah. That's that's always like the highlight reel and they're leaving out everything. Right.

Jordan Gal: 44:04

And and oftentimes there's there's great content and they're, you know, they do cool stuff and there's clever stuff. But but I think that is part of what convinces that they have to do a lot of stuff. But the stories that we end up liking the most are the ones with that are it's the most straightforward version of success. Mhmm. Like I did this and then and then I did this more.

Brian Casel: 44:23

You know? Yeah. You know, and and it

Jordan Gal: 44:25

kind of it's almost like this base camp like all the way down to the fundamentals. Yeah. Thing. And and those are the stories we end up admiring the most.

Brian Casel: 44:33

You know, I and and yeah. I I also hear all these stories of like, how'd you grow your SaaS? And the answer that I see time and time again in these interviews is like, you know, customers just kept asking for these features and we built those features and then we grew. And you you know, you you wanna hate that answer because it's like there has to be more to it. You have to be doing some sort of marketing and or have some distribution advantage.

Brian Casel: 44:57

And may I'm sure there there is some of that. Right? But at the end of the day, even if you're a good marketer, your customers are not gonna stick around if you're not if you're not solving the problem the right way, you know? Mhmm. Mhmm.

Brian Casel: 45:11

Like I I I What I mean is like, I as much as I hate reading those interviews and those answers Okay. I believe them. Like I I believe that like actually, like once once they built x y and z features, like they had some baseline of organic users coming through and I'm sure they optimized certain things in the funnel. But at the end of the day, the reason why customers stay and don't cancel is because they built the things that they all prom.

Jordan Gal: 45:41

Yep. I I like that and you know I'm I'm thinking a lot about pricing. I don't know what you've been thinking lately in terms of like how you wanna go out building the actual business model, like the money making function of whatever of whatever you build. It is a problem when I move out of the conceptual and I put it into a calculator. It is a low pricing is a is a problem.

Jordan Gal: 46:10

Mhmm. When you stare at the numbers, you're like, I need 5,000 customers or I need 500 customers. Which was more likely? Which sounds like more enjoyable business to run? What sounds like more doable?

Jordan Gal: 46:23

Where are you gonna spend more time and energy on the right things. And it it is really really tough to go into anything with a low price. Yeah. It sounds awful. Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 46:35

But I keep I keep doing this. I keep doing this thing in my head where I'm like, well, conceptually, I think the right thing to do strategically in the market is lower price, self serve, low friction because we need this thing to spread as quickly as possible before it gets launched as a feature in these other platforms. Cool. Theoretically, very cool. Then I do the math and I'm like, yeah, but if I charge 250 or $500 a month on average, we'll have just a lot fewer people to deal with.

Jordan Gal: 46:58

We won't spread like wildfire and take over the market. But sounds like a much better business to run.

Brian Casel: 47:02

I think this for you this comes back to what we were talking about a few weeks ago. It's like, why is the high volume self serve so valuable? It can be You can do a little bit of touch and charge more and make it easy. Mhmm. Right?

Brian Casel: 47:20

Quote unquote easy. But there's there's always there's always the charge more option.

Jordan Gal: 47:27

Yeah. There is. You know, I I guess maybe this is part of the, like, response I'm having from the previous experience with Yeah.

Brian Casel: 47:38

The checkout. Right. Right.

Jordan Gal: 47:40

There's there's there's a lot of that at play here. There's a lot of whatever we did there, I wanna try doing different.

Brian Casel: 47:48

Yeah. And and pricing is so hard to when I when I'm looking at new product ideas, I I do look for ones now. Like the one I was looking at last week, I What I liked about it was that there's probably like a low priced SaaS thing there. But I also saw opportunity for services that we can charge thousands for. Like attached to this.

Brian Casel: 48:10

Like a like a a tech enabled service type of model. Like that that seems kinda interesting to me. Again, I've cooled off on that whole concept. But in Clarity Flow, I think we successfully changed our pricing. Because back when we were doing zip message, we were free and then 19 and $39.

Brian Casel: 48:31

And so like ARPU of somewhere around $26.30. And and now now we're priced like, you know, as of today like $49.99, $1.99. Mhmm. So our ARPU is much higher. Most people Like like, so I I Where I sort of struggled now Like, I I sort of like where the general ARPU is now compared to where we were.

Brian Casel: 48:56

Okay. But I still don't have a good solution for how to get them into the very highest tier. We only have We have a very small percentage of people on the highest tier. Okay. And and I haven't yet found the solution for like what's the most compelling thing to put into the highest tier.

Brian Casel: 49:16

That that is like That that solves an expensive enough problem for peep Like, there And there might be some sort of ceiling with this market with coaches. Sure. That like our middle tier is just generally where they're gonna be. But that's that's something that I It's not necessarily a problem that I'm working on right now, but it's something that I'm thinking about long term. We're gonna have to figure out how to how to increase it even more, you know.

Jordan Gal: 49:42

Yeah. I'm I'm gonna try to decrease friction and and see how it goes. Right? Instead of instead of figuring out that very highest tier, I I want I wanna challenge us to see if we can build effectively a self serve version of this product. You know what I said last week about like having the right dream around that Jenny AI.

Brian Casel: 50:04

That was by the way, I I read that that tweet that you talked about last week. What a

Jordan Gal: 50:09

Very good.

Brian Casel: 50:09

I mean, there are some some tweets out there. This is one of the most epic, like long form tweets I've seen in a while.

Jordan Gal: 50:17

Yeah. Because it's detailed, but not too much detail, but not fuzzy on anything.

Brian Casel: 50:22

No. It was straightforward. Like, it is I do yeah. Like, really like insightful to some of the stuff that I haven't seen marketing and yeah. Like spinning up multiple social media accounts and

Jordan Gal: 50:38

And reusing the same video but with a different thirty seconds at the beginning. Right. Like Yep. And then once something works, making copies of that same thing. I I I agree and I I one of the things I came away with is I loved getting the appreciation for the fact that their success is not an accident.

Jordan Gal: 50:53

Mhmm. That you gotta respect it. It's not like, oh, they got lucky. No, man. Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 50:58

Not lucky. Really smart and hardworking and that's beautiful.

Brian Casel: 51:02

For sure.

Jordan Gal: 51:02

So that Look, that is a certain type of product and you can see how you can get scale in terms of being able to manage support for a 100,000 users. But but I I I like that. I like thinking that way and that challenge. I right. It's this is not a consumer product for freemium and $20 a month, what we're doing.

Jordan Gal: 51:24

It's not that.

Brian Casel: 51:25

Mhmm.

Jordan Gal: 51:26

But I I wanna see how close to that is is is correct.

Brian Casel: 51:30

Yeah. Yep. It's still it's it's To me it's it's hard theoretically to like start with that. To to to say like this is a totally new idea in a totally new space for me. How do I go high volume early on?

Brian Casel: 51:47

Like that it seems like something to build up to. I I like the I like what you said earlier like the progression of like, we start with the more of a higher touch. We we get the basics right and then we kinda make our way down to the to the higher volume.

Jordan Gal: 52:01

It that I think that's gonna be a really big challenge because the the instinct is to build out features for the higher end of the market and then Right. And then the challenge is to take that and what we've learned and what's valuable and then almost like eliminate the unnecessary parts before we go further down market. It's not the same product with the different onboarding is is kind of the the mindset I have going in. It's not build out the features, get everything right, identify the actual needs compared to the wants from the customer that's paying $250 a month and then better onboarding and and go toward the lower end of the market.

Brian Casel: 52:44

Mhmm.

Jordan Gal: 52:45

It's not that. Right? This is this was part of the conversation that I had with with the product manager with Jordan. And the challenge there is going to be don't offer the same product. It's it's make it much simpler.

Brian Casel: 52:58

Yeah. Make it much more like bare bones just like Right. Dead dead simple.

Jordan Gal: 53:03

Yes. And that is taking the work that you've done that you know is valuable and removing it. And that I think is gonna be really really difficult to stay with that. I and I I hope I hope we are successful.

Brian Casel: 53:15

Yeah. Operating in like a cutting edge like with AI and like technology things. Like at at first, it's it's just gonna be a little bit more complex by its nature and then it's gonna be like a chipping away at the complexity making making this simpler and more accessible and and easier for for lower tech savvy people to do themselves. Yes. You know?

Jordan Gal: 53:34

That's the whole ballgame is how how much can you translate the technology and strip away complexity to hand it over to people who don't care about the complexity. They just want the solution. Yep. Yeah. So we'll we'll we'll see.

Jordan Gal: 53:47

It's gonna be it's be a fun fun few months after after launching.

Brian Casel: 53:50

For sure, man.

Jordan Gal: 53:51

And normally, would say by the time this gets published, the website will be up, but that's not true because this is gonna be published in ten minutes.

Brian Casel: 53:57

About fifteen minutes. Yep. Yep.

Jordan Gal: 54:00

So I'm aiming at like Tuesday, Wednesday of next week.

Brian Casel: 54:02

Saw your site today though. It looked looked pretty good to me. Couple placeholder images, swap those out and then you're good to go.

Jordan Gal: 54:07

It's close. It's getting close. It's getting close.

Brian Casel: 54:09

Yep.

Jordan Gal: 54:10

Cool. I definitely stole a lot from the Clarity Flow website, which is great. I can just talk about that very openly and I can ping you and I say, this is different enough for I'm sorry.

Brian Casel: 54:19

No. No. It it it looks good. Looks good.

Jordan Gal: 54:21

Look, I looked at a lot of different sites and Clarity Flow I we didn't want this super techy impressive site.

Brian Casel: 54:28

I don't think it even ends up looking like Clarity Flow much.

Jordan Gal: 54:30

But we we we still borrowed a lot from it because we given the audience, you don't want super fancy linear type design. You don't. Yeah. But you do want Dark mode Yes. But you want it to be impressive and I think Clarity Flow has this very nice spot that it sits in where it's very clear and it's still very good looking but it doesn't go over the top on trying to be fancy for

Brian Casel: 54:57

I mean, our our boy, Mike McAllister did a fantastic job on the look and feel and the brand for for Clarity Flow. He's he's awesome.

Jordan Gal: 55:04

So Cool.

Brian Casel: 55:05

Really really proud of Like especially early on in that process when he when he said he like suggested the color palette and everything and and it wasn't one that I would have come up with myself and I and I loved it right out right out of the gate, you know. Cool. Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 55:18

Yeah. I I I follow him on I befriended him after you know, you introduced me and now I follow him on Twitter. He's doing some cool stuff.

Brian Casel: 55:24

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. He's he's he's big in the in the WordPress space and he's doing a new thing called Ollie, which is which is really cool. It's like a new take on a on a builder in WordPress.

Brian Casel: 55:32

Cool.

Jordan Gal: 55:35

Alright. Well,

Brian Casel: 55:38

it's long weekend for for my my girls. I'm sure I'll be working on Monday, but you know, you know how it is.

Jordan Gal: 55:44

Yeah. But still long, Keith. It's good. Remember, no one cares what the National Court of Justice says. Go Israel.

Brian Casel: 55:51

See you. There you go. Later, folks.