Year-end takeaways & goals
Alright. We've got it in. This is Bootstrap web on Friday. Oh, it's Friday the thirteenth. How about that?
Jordan Gal:It is
Brian Casel:the thirteenth. December. Here we go. So yeah. I think I think we're gonna do a little like end of the year episode here.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. This might be the last one. Right? Next week you're away.
Brian Casel:Probably. I'm next week.
Jordan Gal:I don't know. Once again
Brian Casel:then we're into like holiday land. So, yeah. So, so next week Wednesday, just Amy and I are are flying out to California. We're gonna check out Joshua Tree National Park. Never been there.
Brian Casel:Gonna do some hiking without the kids. That sounds nice. Little short
Jordan Gal:of a Joshua Tree. Yeah. It was cool.
Brian Casel:Been there? Yeah. Yeah. We were we were, you know, we like to do these like We like a five day vacation. That's like a that's like a good small trip.
Brian Casel:Okay. Especially when it's just just us.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Three days feel short. You know, two three nights feels
Brian Casel:three days. Like like seven days, seven to ten it's like Yeah. You know, I I like a I like a five day or I like like a month or more. Like a long thing. But, yeah.
Brian Casel:So that so we're gonna do that and Take a fiver? Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Okay. Well, we are we're staying here which sounds great. Last year we traveled, you know, we go back and forth with Regan's sister family and this year it's our year. Our neighbor busted out and built their ice skating rink next door.
Brian Casel:Oh, wow.
Jordan Gal:So the cousins are pumped up, know. We got our Christmas tree. We got our little menorah. We are ready. There you go.
Jordan Gal:And we are working out our credit cards. What is going on in December?
Brian Casel:Mars is getting too much of laugh.
Jordan Gal:Jesus. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. It it it has this very strange effect on me where I I spend a lot of money.
Jordan Gal:It's inevitable. Right? Holiday time. And then I get a little stressed like yo, how much money are we spending? And then I get mad at myself that I have to worry about spending money because I feel like I should be beyond worrying about spending money.
Jordan Gal:This is not not a very healthy cycle here.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah. I we we just I mean Amazon makes it way too easy to just buy shit and then return shit and then again and it's just
Jordan Gal:Oh, got I got wind up dreidels on the way. You wind them up, they crank them up and then and then you smack them and they spin around and then like make music. Yeah. Right now, my wife has the kids downstairs that are doing like an ornament exchange, but they're actually making ornaments because my wife likes to go overboard on the crafting. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:It's good. But what I am really looking forward to is two weeks focused on the fam. We we are closing shop at Rosie between the eighteenth and the second. Yep.
Brian Casel:Okay. Two weeks. Cool.
Jordan Gal:You know, we got some everyone's on support. We got some stuff going on, but no releases and feature work and that type of thing.
Brian Casel:Very cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm I have a You know, before we get into all the end of the year stuff, like right now I have so we're sort of on on Clarity Flow, we're sort of in between features.
Brian Casel:We just shipped forms a couple weeks ago and a couple small ones after that. But we're just starting to build tasks into Clarity Flow. Which is not something I would have like It's something that I thought about early on but like I I was like, we're not gonna get into doing like to do tasks. But like everyone kept requesting it. I guess it's the thing with with coaches.
Brian Casel:They like to assign tasks to their clients. So we're starting to build that. And and that just rolls along. I just I spent yesterday scoping it out and then give it to the team and I'll touch it again in like six weeks. You know, let them let them Okay.
Brian Casel:Got the customer success going with that. That that's been that's been very good and
Jordan Gal:Is that like a simple feature? Like make a task list and then assign it
Brian Casel:seems simple but it's it's a lot more complicated than It it hooks into everything in Clarity Flow so
Jordan Gal:Okay. Yeah. We just released excuse me. We re released appointment links and and spam. So if you recall a few weeks ago, like maybe two months ago, so we had these features out.
Jordan Gal:We felt like we didn't have a great understanding of how they were used. Once we saw how they were used, we actually said, alright. You know what should do? Let's remove these from the base plan, from the app entirely. And then we started to reintroduce it, but on a case by case basis.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:And now this week, we relaunch them but only into the higher tiers.
Brian Casel:Yep.
Jordan Gal:And then in January, what we're doing we're taking these few weeks to get feedback. And then what we're doing in January is we are we are revealing the premium features inside of the admin so that people can self serve into the higher tiers.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:It's almost like this it's kind of been an interesting, like, UX play where we want people to breeze through the setup for the base plan, very very simple features. And then on the last page of the setup, we wanna reveal the premium features, but the messaging is tricky because we want someone to enable the premium feature. But then we also need to notify them with clarity that if they use this feature when they are done with their trial, they're going to convert to the higher plan.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:So it's a little bit of like a fantasy to collect can we can we make it that smooth?
Brian Casel:Way that we do it Well, I mean, like right now we don't have trials. So they they just pay on day one. But Mhmm. But we do show all features in the interface everywhere including higher tier features. Okay.
Brian Casel:But if but if it's not on your current plan, if you try to use that feature Okay. Then we kick you to the to the upgrade screen and ask you to upgrade.
Jordan Gal:Okay. So similar issue. How did you find it?
Brian Casel:Back when we did have trials, the way that we did it was, okay. You're Say you're on a fourteen day trial and you're on day five and you want to use a premium feature. Mhmm. You click that button to to try to use that premium feature then we kick you to the upgrade screen. Now, have to put in your credit card to choose your premium plan.
Brian Casel:You do that so you upgrade during your trial but we don't charge you until until day fourteen.
Jordan Gal:Credit card in? But whereas Okay. At least you didn't?
Brian Casel:This was this was the previous version. We we don't have trials. But back when we had trials, we had no credit card upfront trial.
Jordan Gal:Okay.
Brian Casel:So so you start
Jordan Gal:Same as us.
Brian Casel:Trial, no credit card. You're on the base plan like the starter plan. Then, let's say day five you wanna upgrade or you want to use a premium feature. Mhmm. You you try to use that feature, we kick you to the upgrade upgrade screen.
Brian Casel:That's where we require you to put in your credit card and say, I'm putting in my credit card and I'm gonna be on the premium plan. Okay. Great. You you won't get charged today, you'll get charged Mhmm. Day fourteen.
Jordan Gal:Okay. And and you'll
Brian Casel:be on the you'll be on the premium.
Jordan Gal:I I really I really like that. Oh, we we did not plan on requiring the credit card at that time, but it it it kinda makes sense. It kinda doesn't, but it kinda does and it's it makes enough sense to ask for it. Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:What we're finding right now, it's it's not bad. It's maybe sixty forty but we see people approaching their time limit, right, their fifty minute limit and we have Slack notifications come in and we'll see someone they hit forty five minutes and they and then we have it right there whether or not they have their credit card on file. And when it says you hit forty five minutes and you yes you have it on file we're like alright it's just a matter of time. You know, a day, two days they're gonna convert. But if it says no, it's almost like, well, that's that's kind of a disaster for everyone.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Because you're using it, you don't have it on file, we're trying to get in touch with you. So I wonder if that upgrade is is a good moment to to ask for it. Cool. Interesting.
Brian Casel:What I'm spending all my time on is is instrumental products.
Jordan Gal:How's it going?
Brian Casel:It's going good. You know, got three active projects going on with clients and I've got three team members who are doing those projects. I'm overseeing them and managing them and and they're still new and I'm still new to them. And so there's still some like getting to know you in terms of like team workflow. Like compared to my workflow with Clarity Flow With the Clarity Flow team, we are dialed in.
Jordan Gal:Really?
Brian Casel:I can because I've been working with my developer for like two years there and and my customer success, I've been working with her for six years because she was in audience ops too. So we are dialed in Clarity Flow. That that's how in Clarity Flow I'm literally able to Yesterday I spent four hours scoping out that tasks feature. Handing it off to my developer and I'm not gonna touch it for more weeks. So build it.
Jordan Gal:That's your role, like the product role there and then it Yeah.
Brian Casel:And and it and and that's how I can literally give my input and then step away. And then approve stuff and polish stuff but then step away. And that that's how I can only That's how I'm able to just do 20% of my time on Clarity Flow because we are so dialed in with that team. On the instrumental product side, they're Like it's at the point now where they are doing all the building in the projects and I'm directing it. But I But one of my developers is actually doing the scoping and that takes time off of my plate as well.
Brian Casel:So you know, I'm just doing like a lot of like checking and messaging with them everyday and and I'm working on the instrumental components product a lot. Like you know, preparing that as a product to ship in January but also constantly improving it and building it so that we can use it in our projects. And I'm starting to work on the starting to work on the on like the docs site and marketing site for that.
Jordan Gal:Okay. Are you looking at the last two weeks of December as an opportunity to relax or an opportunity to do that work?
Brian Casel:Well, I'm I'm not taking off except for this upcoming vacation next week. I'll have my computer with me. I'm not gonna completely disconnect but we're gonna be out hiking every day you know. The Yeah. After that holidays, but we're we're pretty low key.
Brian Casel:We're gonna be hanging around here and no no big plans for Christmas and New Years. Might try to get a ski trip in if if it snows around here. But, yeah. For the most part we are I'm I'm just working normally, you know.
Jordan Gal:Okay. I I I feel like I need a break. And maybe this is a good transition to like the previous year and the year up. I'm a little fried. I feel good looking back at the last year.
Jordan Gal:Let let's do that a little bit now before we
Brian Casel:format this episode. Like because I I I've also been spending this past week like I I wrote a blog post that I'll publish in a few days as my my year end recap. So so we have like the year 2024 and then we can look ahead to 2025. Some you know Yes. Couple goals
Jordan Gal:or things. So Brian's gonna have organized thoughts and mine will be on the fly and and we'll see how it goes. But yeah. Let's look back and then look forward.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Alright. I'll I'll just like the way that I have it is like a couple of big things that stand out from the past twelve months and my takeaways from them. I don't know how you think about the past year. Like how would you My my first question for you is like how would you characterize this year in the context of your whole career so far?
Brian Casel:Like is because because I was thinking about that like I I've I'm I'm now like nineteen years into my career. Mhmm. I think sixteen years owning my own business. And, there's probably like three or four of those years that stand out like that was a big year for some. Either big because it was great or big because it sucked.
Jordan Gal:Mhmm.
Brian Casel:And maybe three you know, so that's a short list. And for me, I think 2024 is on that list But it's weird because it's like it was half and half. Like the first half was a terrible Like it was turning out to be a really really tough year for me personally. And then, this second half into right now, I feel like it was a it was a major bounce back. A lot of unlocks, a lot of things clicked into place, a lot of clarity and recovery and feeling good about
Jordan Gal:So that had Yeah. That arc. I I I can't. I rarely find much value in looking back at the entire career, the the twenty year view. Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:For me personally, if I'm being honest, I usually end up frustrated if I do that.
Brian Casel:Me too.
Jordan Gal:I I think about some lost opportunities. I think about some mistakes. I think I I don't know. It it doesn't
Brian Casel:I I I I feel you on that but like this is the time when I when I do think about the bigger trajectory of everything.
Jordan Gal:I I always spend 10% of my You know, if I'm thinking that way, it's 10% on the past and 90% on how do I achieve what I want in this next span. And that span has changed. It used to be in the next year and now it's really five years. The thing for me in my head, my oldest daughter is 12 and I have certain financial goals that I want to accomplish before she goes away to college. Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:So I it's like this six year window in my mind and and I do a lot of my planning and thinking around that time frame.
Brian Casel:Yep.
Jordan Gal:Which I think generally is healthier than one year at a time. I used to look at it one year at a time and now less so. But looking back at 2024, I would say pretty similar experience as as your arc from darkness to light. Mhmm. If I look at a year ago, a lot of it was around looking at Rally and saying, okay, maybe there's something here but I don't like the way it's going.
Jordan Gal:Mhmm. And and feeling you you you know, you kinda get into this thing where you kinda like get depressed because you feel stuck and then you realize I'm not stuck. I have choices. I have agency. I can be creative and the more you go down that path, you know, it's it's funny.
Jordan Gal:It just kinda it happens gradually, but there is this moment where you're like, actually, I can just do whatever I want.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:And for for me, it was pretty early on in the year where it was, you know what? I don't think I wanna do another year of doing the exact same thing. I don't like where this is going. I'm gonna give
Brian Casel:It's incredible how you are describing my exact year and mindset. Yeah. And we had two completely different businesses, but but I feel like we are going through that what you exactly just described at the same time
Jordan Gal:Yes.
Brian Casel:At the beginning of this year.
Jordan Gal:In 2025, let's just let's just up into the right. Okay? We'll do that together. Up into the right. But yeah, but this last year was like it's almost maximum frustration and doom and gloom and then there's the breakthrough of actually, I'm just gonna take charge.
Jordan Gal:I'm actually not gonna do this and I refuse to accept that fate. And then now I guess, oh, you know what I gotta do? I gotta muster up the energy and the courage and the optimism to just decide what what I wanna do.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I mean, I so the the the phrase that I've been writing down in in some in in this thing here is like, I made the decision right at the '23 into '24 to right size my SaaS product, Clarity Flow. Because in the three years before that, I was 100% all in, only working on that. I sold all my other businesses. I was only working on that.
Brian Casel:Didn't start anything else. And, but it it it it was not a failure. It's it's still not. And we we have hundreds of customers who use it every single day. It's a great product.
Brian Casel:I use it 10 times every single day with my clients, with my team.
Jordan Gal:Mhmm. Yeah. The revenue is not insignificant.
Brian Casel:The revenue is not insignificant. The runway was So when you were describing like, I was looking at the trajectory and I didn't like what I what I saw. What I saw at that time, this is a year ago was we're not out of money and we have customers and and we have a little bit of slow growth. But if if I change nothing, we're going to hit a wall within the next six to ten months at some point. Like runway is going to run out unless I make a decision now.
Brian Casel:Now meaning like a year ago. And so that does And so like to me, was like you were just saying like I was faced with choices. Right? I immediately like sort of ruled out like like I'm not selling this business. I'm not interested in raising more investment to to just sustain To just keep remaining all in on this.
Brian Casel:Like that that was not an option in in my view or at least not attractive. I I I also And some people were telling me like, you should do that. And I was like, no. Like I'm That that's not what I wanna do. And the other thing was some people were were suggesting and I I consider this briefly, just starve it of resources.
Brian Casel:Like let let go of the whole team and just try to hack it myself continuing to go full time on this thing myself. That was not an option in my view or just not smart. Because like you can't just starve this thing of of all resources and I cannot just Like technically I could do all the jobs myself but I can't do all that myself. I can't do product and support and bugs and marketing entirely myself and try to make a scrape together a living off of that like not happening. And I wasn't I also was I also was convinced that like I'm not gonna magically discover hockey stick growth in the next six months.
Brian Casel:Mhmm. You know, I I've only seen slow steady growth. I've not seen hockey stick growth and I can't expect that to happen. So what I decided to do was not starve it off resources. I ended up hiring a customer success person and I kept my developer on full time.
Brian Casel:What I did was I reduced my time from a 100% down to 20%. Mhmm. And I I gave the business what it needed. We did some strategic stuff. We we improved the product a lot.
Brian Casel:We we went deep on customer success. And actually the business grew in 2024 as a result of that. It grew slowly of course. Slow steady growth like nothing changed there. Mhmm.
Brian Casel:I enabled But that enabled me to go down to 20% and with the other 80%, I ended up being able to start a new business Mhmm. In instrumental products which ended up doing way more revenue and profit than Clarity Flow did in 2024. So like and and so like that Like I went from literally not having an income for three years. I was just living off a runway to it ended up be like it ended up surpassing my goals for re for cobbling together an income in '24. Like it was much better than I expected by the end of the year.
Brian Casel:Right. Because the first the first half was dark and scary. It's And and like I I I burned out. Like the the big I started the year with a physical burnout. Like I I think I really burned out.
Brian Casel:Like I I I had shingles. Mhmm. Like serious back pain for a couple weeks there.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Back pain comes out of that.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Like that that was stress. Like that was literally my body reacting to to trying to operate a business with a sense of urgency, which was not healthy. And like my big takeaway from the first half of the year was like, I can't just plow through stress like like it's nothing. Like I've always done in the past.
Brian Casel:And usually my my The way I dealt with stress before was just work more. Keep working all the time. Just work like build stuff or or make it work.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Or do more.
Brian Casel:Put in extra hours. Do more. Mhmm. If if I learned anything from that experience this year, it was like my that was my body physically telling me like you gotta Yeah. Wrong way.
Brian Casel:Yeah. This is not this is not correct. Mhmm. Listen to is painful
Jordan Gal:that in order to get the acceptance so that you can go to the next phase of actually taking action, it it's gonna get pretty dark. It's frustrating.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:Like, you you you know, you couldn't have gotten to that same level of acceptance to make to then lead to all the changes that you made until it gets, like, you know, very frustrating. Like, so it needs to hit, like, a wall, a peak, shingles Yeah. Frustration, back pain. With with with Rally, it was I I wanted to say I'm about to say it was more like an emotional psychological wall. It wasn't like we no.
Jordan Gal:We still had money in the bank. And it and some people would say that we pivoted prematurely, but I'm very comfortable with it. You know I when I read stories about people who like you know raise the seed around for a million dollars and then just just ran into a wall, ran out of money that I don't know it's just not the way I I do business so I went relatively early. Once I made the switch though, there was actually very little emotion. You know, I've been chasing e commerce and checkout all this stuff and now I I buy something on Shopify and I'm like, I look at the bottom it's like earn a dollar 25 of shop points.
Jordan Gal:I'm like, I know you know, it's it's all around me. Yeah. And I I just don't have emotion attached to it anymore once we made the switch. And then that's it did take a while. It's frustrating how slow some things are.
Jordan Gal:You make a decision, then you gotta get to this next phase, and then there's always Yeah. Some pain involved.
Brian Casel:I think, yeah. I Well, I I I think this is probably true for you as well. I'm curious to know, but like the For me, by far the hardest part of the transition was figuring out what it what's next. Like exploring ideas and and then finally settling into the thing. Mhmm.
Brian Casel:Because because then once once I'm settled or once the thing is working, then it's just building and things are actually moving very quickly. And I think that that's sort of what happened with with Rosie. Right? Like you were you you were exploring different different options, different things to pivot to. But once you started Rosie like it very Yeah.
Brian Casel:Quickly.
Jordan Gal:Right. It's there's a there's a lot of clarity and simplicity and and you just don't have to make as many decisions. You're like, oh, no. I chose this, now we're going.
Brian Casel:Again, like in the first six months of '24, you know, sort of like the aftermath of all that burnout, I still did Like that was the hardest part because I was I was scared. I was like I don't know what my next business is Yes. Going to be. It has
Jordan Gal:to be
Brian Casel:something but and so I You you probably heard me on the podcast. I was I was exploring multiple SaaS ideas, an education business Mhmm. A media creator business. I was doing consulting. I was doing coaching.
Brian Casel:It was like like different different versions of consulting I I was doing. And all those were like some some were sort of working, some were interesting. So I was learning a lot. I was exploring. I was talking to other people doing these types of businesses.
Brian Casel:But it wasn't until I launched one month app that like that thing that sort of clicked. And that's that's now becoming like instrumental products, the business. And like building up building it out as a product studio. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Right. Then then things start to unfold in front of you and the the, you know, a few different paths. It's just much clearer. The the hardest part for us was the transition and what it what it meant like practically. Right?
Jordan Gal:We went from 20 people to to to nine and then to six. Mhmm. And so navigating that and I end up worrying a lot about how people feel. It's it feels like it's my job to to make sure that anyone who who is being cut, that that's done the right way with, like, dignity and care. But most of the focus and worry and stress is about the people who remain.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:Because if you screw that up, like you then then you're shooting both feet. Like Yeah. Know you're losing good people to be hard
Brian Casel:thing in your end where like because everyone you're working with is basically like full time salary employees. Whereas like everyone I work with tends to be like contractor, like retainers.
Jordan Gal:Right.
Brian Casel:It's And like all all the all the flexibility and and shifting around is mostly just me solo making these decisions. But for the Really for the most part, I I didn't let anybody go in the past year. I actually I just hired more people. Like like I hired a person but but I again I just do these retainers and it's flexible for them, flexible for me.
Jordan Gal:Right. The the understanding, the assumptions are in place. The expectations are are there. Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:For us, the expectations are stay here forever until we sell and you get rich. And
Brian Casel:then Right.
Jordan Gal:Popping bubble is tough.
Brian Casel:You're right like there's that I there there there's certainly like the emotional side of it from all different angles. But at the same time it's like for anyone who is choosing to join a startup like that's part of the deal. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Having Rock there and Jess is very supportive and we've kinda done this long enough that you do build up your gangster skin and you're like, alright. This is not fun and I am not going to be a robot. I will be a human about it, but we're just gonna do what we need to do and get through it. And so Rock and I had this conversation yesterday just, you know, around family holidays, you know, what are you doing? Just like, you know, the personal side.
Jordan Gal:And the comment that we made to each other was this year started off real tough and pessimistic and we're ending it optimistic and everything is possible and let's go like kick ass together. So whatever happened in the year, the arc, you know, we we ended up in a good place and it feels like 2025 is just full of opportunity.
Brian Casel:Hell yeah.
Jordan Gal:Yep. The the hardest part about starting last year was feeling very stuck in that it didn't feel like I could make much of an impact. If if I did an amazing job at something, then maybe next quarter we would close two enterprise deals instead of one. It just felt very disconnected from my own efforts and now it's just such a small team. Everyone makes a difference and it feels like if we do the right things, we will be rewarded.
Jordan Gal:So there's a direct connection between the effort and the ideas, the creativity, the execution, and the reward.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Alright. Well, let's get into 25 in just a minute. I I have one more takeaway from 24 on my end and that is, I got back to building like with my hands. Code and and design and shipping products.
Brian Casel:I I I feel like I finally got got back into being a builder full time everyday. What that means is, it's weird because I I had been working on a SaaS product for years before this.
Jordan Gal:Mhmm.
Brian Casel:But, I didn't realize until this year like how much my building muscles sort of like atrophied in the last couple of years.
Jordan Gal:Okay.
Brian Casel:In the years that where I was only doing Clarity Flow, yeah, I was basically the head of product but I was mostly just delegating like I do now. Like like delegating the building of features to my team and just overseeing them and designing them, polishing them. But that that cadence of building is not actually helping me grow as a builder. I mean like for example, the early part of the AI wave completely passed me by. Like when because AI now is like at least two years into like it's in the mainstream of of of builders purview here.
Brian Casel:Right? Like the first year of it like I was not touching AI at all. I mean, I We weren't building features with it. I wasn't Yeah. Using it in my workflow as a builder.
Brian Casel:It Like it was happening around me. It was interesting and exciting but like we had no need for AI in Clarity Flow. We still don't have any AI in it. So I I didn't even take time to learn it. I didn't have to learn it because it wasn't what I was working on.
Brian Casel:Same thing with like another examples like Rails. So during the years of Clarity Flow, Rails went from Rails version six into Rails seven and now it's on Rails eight. And especially, if you know Rails, the transition from Rails six to seven was sort of a major version change. Like a lot a lot of things changed in the framework or some major changes happened. I mostly ignored all that stuff.
Brian Casel:Like I didn't I didn't keep relevant. Like turbo and hot wire, like I did not get so closely involved in that because we were like, we're not upgrading Clarity Flow right now. It's not a priority. It You know, we have other features to ship. So I don't have to learn that.
Brian Casel:And so I So in other words like I was not expanding as a builder.
Jordan Gal:Mhmm.
Brian Casel:And and I wasn't launching new products so all the shipping muscles of everything else of of ship Of of launching stuff was after. So in 2024, when I built ripple.fm which you know, didn't pan out as like a business. Yeah. But as a product, it was exactly what I needed. Like I think I built it around June or July year.
Brian Casel:Took about a month on it and that was what I needed to do to like awaken at my my building. Like I I got to work with the newest stuff, learn and then from there forward and into the rest of the year, then I started building instrumental Mhmm. Components. Started really embracing AI in my workflow. I'm using cursor and I think it's a complete game changer.
Brian Casel:And and I feel like I'm right now, I'm I'm like in the best shape of my building.
Jordan Gal:Okay. Okay. Right
Brian Casel:now. Like just the not not It's not even just the speed and not even just like the product chops. It's it's like all of that multiplied. I Like, you know
Jordan Gal:Isn't that what it is?
Brian Casel:It's confidence. It's it's AI powered, man. It's like I think that It's weird because I see a lot of like career developer, full stack developers saying things like I don't use AI because that's like not real programming. Right.
Jordan Gal:Don't wanna debug an AI.
Brian Casel:I completely disagree with that point of view. Yeah. As a product person, if you come into it with full stack building skills in the pre AI era, now with AI it's it's like a multiplier. It it takes the superpower to to an completely new level.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Maybe there's a curse of knowledge there of people who have been doing it a long time, very experienced, they kind of can't bend to the to to a new way of doing it.
Brian Casel:It's not it's not even just that it's faster to use like cursor to execute. It it's like it's it's it's like collaborating with with the AI to to build features but it but then that also opens my mind to be to be more ambitious about what I wanna build because I know that I can produce it much faster or I can bust through walls much quicker. Like I would There there were things that like years ago I would I would not even try to build or not even think about building just because I know how technically involved it is. And now I now I know I can just push right through that which which then opens my mind to other product ideas and opportunities that I that wouldn't have been there before.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Very very interesting. I I couldn't help but find analogy with with my experience over the last year but it's it's in a different format. Ripple unlocked that builder confidence. For for me, Rosie unlocked the idea confidence.
Jordan Gal:Right? The I I had a lot of residual confidence from Cardhook because I got that very right. What the market wanted in and and when and in what way and where I just got that right and I I had a if you build it they will come type of a success version. Mhmm. And then and then that went away for a while.
Jordan Gal:Right? And then Yeah. Carter kinda got stamped out by Shopify and then Rally was a good idea but it wasn't at the right time and it wasn't the right place and whatever else so it it didn't do it. And then basically the entire pressure of the company relying on me to come up with an idea of what to build next. I really enjoyed that.
Brian Casel:I actually wanted to ask you about this. So like, you know, now now you're in Rosie and now maybe we can start to think about 2025 here. How do you How does Rosie as a as a product or maybe your path to product market fit, how does how does that feel to you right now compared to CartHook or anything else that came before it,
Jordan Gal:you know? So one of the things that feels really good is the lack of platform risk. Yeah. It feels like like it's up to us. Success succeed or fail, there aren't that many external factors other than competition which feels like, you know, that's normal.
Jordan Gal:That's that's what you want. It does feel there there's a lot going on in the market that impacts us which I I love. Example is we want to build integrations. We want integration partners. We want to get distribution in a one to many from a trusted partner.
Jordan Gal:Okay? Let's say a CRM. What we are starting to find is that some CRMs wanna build their own AI voice product. And that type of thing is my favorite because it is a that is a puzzle. It is a chess match.
Jordan Gal:If one well funded, well established CRM wants to launch this feature on their own to attract people to the higher tier, that immediately means that their competitors, some of their competitors are not going to be able to build it on their own or don't want to build it on their own and that creates partnership potential. So the the general like landscape in front of us just feels very very wide open. I think you were saying you feel like a builder again and you can like take destiny into your own hands. For me that means, deploying resources. Right?
Jordan Gal:That's kind of the game I got myself into by raising VC. And so looking at the landscape and saying this is these are the levers that I wanna pull next year. That just my favorite version of business because the the market's wide open. People are picking their spots. There's enterprise products.
Jordan Gal:There's SMB products. There's all these different spots in the market and the choices that you make and then how you deploy your resources, will make a very big difference. So right now we have advertising as a bucket of where we're putting our resources And it is not it's tough to say whether or not it's profitable. It's working, but it is linear. And so being able to look at my budget for marketing and say 75% is gonna go to advertising because it's just we're just gonna steadily grow because of it because we've been doing it long enough that we know what's gonna happen.
Jordan Gal:And then being able to take this other 25% and trying to manufacture luck whether that's big hits, affiliates, you're going viral, whatever else. Having that opportunity in a market that's just starting to turn and look toward this type of a solution, I I feel optimistic. I know it's not gonna be easy, but it feels like if you put the right moves together, then you can grow like crazy.
Brian Casel:It sounds like you have like a like a a solid start. You're you're in a you're in a great space. You you have the the team, you have the tech, you have the product. The market is like ripe for it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like it like if I think back to to Cart Hook, which was which was selling to like e commerce brands.
Brian Casel:So people So so these these customers were already online and and tech savvy and and operating in in that space and and and they were sort of like beating down the door for this you know, upsell solution on the cart and everything. I I wonder what your impression of like selling to small business like local small business is. Especially with a with like an AI product.
Jordan Gal:The At Cardhook, the the bad part that we've covered before was the the platform. Didn't want us to succeed. It wouldn't let us do this. They wouldn't the flip side of that was that the market was booming. So you had more people coming into the market.
Jordan Gal:You had people who were getting more successful. There's enormous amount of attention. So that that overshadowed the downside and the friction with the platform. SMB has been super interesting. Shout out to Luke, a listener in the podcast who reached out to me and said, I have learned all the SMB issues that you're talking about.
Jordan Gal:I I think I can help. We got on a call this week. Extremely helpful. The most helpful thing that I've been experiencing and what he, emphasized is that SMB will not find the value. You need to serve them the value on a silver platter, and then you need to wave in front of their face and say, click here.
Jordan Gal:This is the actual value.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. So that, you know, that there's a lot of new stuff that we're learning for for sure. I think we've talked about this dynamic around AI markets that are much bigger than you expect because there's no competition even though there's a very big problem because the solutions weren't possible. Right. And that just feels so incredibly exciting.
Jordan Gal:I'm a little worried about the level of competition. There's a million worries.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:But so far, the feedback is there's a problem. People are attracted to a solution that says they're it's solving the problem. And we just have we just have a ton of work, but it's not
Brian Casel:It does seem like the mainstream is is is there there I feel like there there is gonna be a boom in small business adopting AI driven products like in It's like it's it's gonna start to happen like really rapidly. What Whenever it starts to happen, I I think maybe it's happening right now, but like I feel like we're just just before it but it's gonna It's not just gonna like be a gradual adoption. Once We once it starts it's gonna it's gonna accelerate really really quickly. Yes. You know?
Brian Casel:Yes. So that We saw that with things like like online ordering for restaurants. You know, like forever, like no restaurants did that. And then it was like literally a matter of like twelve months Yes. When like every you know.
Jordan Gal:That's right. So yeah. And then and that's you know, that's the game we're trying to be in. It does feel stressful that the tech might get so good that replicating our product might might be might be easier for larger customers excuse me, larger partners. So just think about RingCentral.
Brian Casel:Right.
Jordan Gal:It makes sense for them to do what we're doing. They're not doing what we're doing. So it is a bit of a game of chicken. If we can figure out how to onboard SMB and then make a name for ourselves so that there's word-of-mouth and we start growing quickly, then we become such a dead obvious acquisition target for those companies, especially if we're walking around attached to 25,000 SMB customers.
Brian Casel:Yep.
Jordan Gal:So there is a bit of a game of chicken of can you get there to escape velocity before the competition overwhelms our solution being independent. If we're big enough as an independent when that happens and the entire market decides they need this type of a solution, then we're an amazing spot. If we don't quite reach escape velocity before the tech gets really good and widespread and it makes more sense to build as opposed to acquire then then we might be in a more challenging spot.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
Jordan Gal:How about you? Twenty twenty what are you looking at?
Brian Casel:Alright. I'm afraid to talk about this one because I don't know if I'm gonna be able to pull it off and this is a completely different goal than I've ever had. But I've been talking about it like to my family for a couple weeks. Okay. In 2025, I want to work four day work weeks.
Jordan Gal:Friday's off?
Brian Casel:Friday's off. Friday's is gonna be the off day. I don't I don't know if I can pull it off. But I But I That is a very real goal. I could I could get into all the reasons behind it.
Brian Casel:I've been thinking about this for the last month or so. Okay. It's Alright. I'll I'll talk about the why and then and then I'll
Jordan Gal:It's a it's a great goal. Right? It's not a million ARR. It's not whatever. I would like to hear what's underneath it.
Jordan Gal:You can make the argument that it's counter to your desire to grow the business. It's
Brian Casel:not necessarily counter. This is not changing any any of the business goals.
Pippin Williamson:Okay.
Brian Casel:I definitely
Jordan Gal:Help help help reconcile that with what I'm most interested in is why. What what is the upside of that? Like the the actual personal life. Yep. What are trying what are you trying to do?
Brian Casel:I spent the last many years now in this career feeling like I'm with with like working with a sense of urgency to build and build and build for a future big win.
Jordan Gal:Yep. The American way.
Brian Casel:And, I've had a couple of base hits. I haven't had like a a big home run-in my career. You know, may maybe I'll have one of those big big exits in the future at some point but it's not on the near term horizon and especially coming at you know, we talked about like the the burnout, the physical, the stress. But now as I end the year and I and I and I did achieve the goal of settling in to my next business with instrumental products and I still have Clarity Flow as an asset that that is growing slowly. I'm I'm trying to embrace this mindset or transition fully to this mindset of like, I'm not building for a future win.
Brian Casel:I can get that win right now. And and the the payoff for doing this career, the payoff for for being a bootstrapper, the the paying the payoff for being an entrepreneur to me. Like that ROI has to start right now. It it it Like I'm not building for that future exit anymore. I'm building and and that payoff means like I get to work in a business where I only have to work four days a week.
Brian Casel:And most people my age do still work forty hours plus a week. Yeah. Yeah. At least. And start I I wanna literally start this in January where Fridays, I'm gonna wake up and the expectation is my weekend has begun.
Brian Casel:You know? And so that's that's the main thinking behind it. I mean other like the other thing that really sort of triggered it was a month or two ago, I as I as I started to look back on this year and thinking about like all the all the stress and all the time I spend like like just thinking about work and doing the work and building shit. It started to occur to me like, know, I I feel like I'm missing out on other parts of life.
Jordan Gal:Yep. Fair.
Brian Casel:You know? We I mean, we we do stuff with the family. We take vacations. We hang out. We we do sports.
Brian Casel:We we do all this different stuff. But, I I don't really have a lot of time for my own stuff. Like, I I like to make music. I like to I like to work out and and exercise. I don't know other What other things I might get into but I feel like I I haven't had any space to even explore any other hobbies or any other interests.
Brian Casel:And and I'm at an age now where it's like, I I can't just My hobby cannot just be working. Know? I I You know? And the the original idea for this So so my wife works four days a week. She she works in the in the school district but she gets Wednesdays off.
Brian Casel:She's And and she's had that for the last two years and it's it's actually been really nice because we do we do our date lunch every Wednesday. And we both look forward to it. It's really great. And, but like Wednesday is her and she's an entire day to do whatever because she's not working. You know, catch catches up on other stuff, does hobbies, that goes shopping, does whatever.
Brian Casel:Right? And and and then it just started to occur to me like, man, I I'm so jealous of that.
Jordan Gal:I wish
Brian Casel:I had a day where I just don't have any obligations. Know? And weekends. Like like, yes I have downtime in the weekends and and plenty of that. But like, I want a day like when my kids and and Amy are at work and school.
Brian Casel:Like I still I still want a whole day to myself to do whatever I want.
Jordan Gal:Mhmm. You
Brian Casel:know? Now I don't I'm afraid of even talking about that because if it it very much remains to be seen if I will be able to pull this off. Mhmm. And I don't I don't think it'll be because there's so much work to do that I have to work.
Jordan Gal:Is it like mental?
Brian Casel:It's like I'm gonna wanna work. I I always wanna work. I love doing the work.
Jordan Gal:Okay. I I believe you. If I said that you shouldn't believe me. I I I would end up doing it not because I love the work but because I felt guilty.
Brian Casel:So a little bit of Well that that is the guilt. For to me the version of the guilt is especially when I'm building a new product which is most of the time I'm I'm building something new. I'm I'm I get fired up about that product and I and I then I start to develop in my mind some sort of date in the very near future when I wanna ship that product. And then and then the logic goes like, if I wanna ship by the January then I have to work every waking hour on this thing. And so I I need to start to get back into the mindset of like we're not working on urgency here.
Brian Casel:Yes, I can work on this thing for four days a week and I can shut it down and I can pick it back up on Monday morning. Mhmm. And and I have to start to like train myself to accept that reality. I don't know if I will be able to.
Jordan Gal:I don't know. It's That's the idea. It's a great goal. It's an admirable goal. It's inspiring.
Jordan Gal:I I The the irony is that when I hear you say that, I I mean, I'm with you. I think it's a it's an amazing goal. I I haven't really thought about it. I don't know if I could do it or all these other things but it's a great goal just, you know, for life because because your life is is worth
Brian Casel:I mean, from a I I don't see how If I were to actually do this and like actually only work four days a week, I I don't really see how that would actually impact like the bottom line of the business. You know, like I It's not like we would earn less money.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Which is a trip to think about.
Brian Casel:The the the only real impact
Jordan Gal:20% of the week.
Brian Casel:The only real impact and and it's funny because like my very next goal that I haven't had on my list was like ship more things in 2025. Okay. Ship new new products but the only impact that that the first goal would have is that I'm shipping slower because I have one less day to work on to to work on building stuff. You know.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. That's Yeah. There's there's I It's interesting. I I'm curious how other people kind of receive it as they hear it. For for me, I what I find is irony because I don't love the work and I I'm would be happy doing nothing.
Jordan Gal:You know, eventually I would do something but I my problem is not I love the work so much. I I wanna do the work. I actually don't.
Brian Casel:What so what do you mean you don't love it? Like what what's the worst part about it?
Jordan Gal:Or or It's not like
Brian Casel:not like what's the worst part but like what feels like a grind in general Work. That you do that you're doing a lot. Work.
Jordan Gal:Work. The the the the the the act of trying to grow revenue with a software product, I don't find to be I find it very interesting. I don't find it very fulfilling. So I whereas there's a big difference there. I I am Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Super interested in it. I feel incredibly lucky. I'm grateful. I like the work from home. I like seeing I there's so many good things that I'm not actually complaining.
Jordan Gal:But if I am being very honest, if I sold the business tomorrow and made $20,000,000, I'm not starting another software company.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:You know, absolutely not. I'm doing something very different with my time and so I think I'm still caught in the trap mentally of I wanna work really really hard so that in the future I don't have to work really hard. What you're what you're what you're doing is kind of
Brian Casel:I have to push the other way. Like I I work too much because I want to work all the time. Yeah. Like I literally like because my family like we we do stuff but we also have a lot of downtime. We're we're sort of homebodies a lot of the time.
Jordan Gal:Wow. Congratulations on marrying right.
Brian Casel:Yeah. It's it's sort of like all all four of our personalities. We we like to go out and do stuff and that takes like half the day. And then we have another half day to relax.
Jordan Gal:Right? That's cool. We hang. My wife's very activity ambitious.
Brian Casel:Yeah. So, but that's that's how we roll and and when we're hanging, when we're relaxing, may maybe I'm I'm watching TV or or I'm out on a bike ride or something but more than More likely than not, I'm just cracking open the laptop and I'm gonna get an extra hour or two in on building some feature that I was working on. And I'll do that on a Saturday or a Sunday like I don't care because I because what else am I gonna do? And and I like doing that, you know. That's that's where I feel like it's gonna be a Friday and I've got nothing else to do.
Brian Casel:Nobody's here. I've got a quiet house. I could just keep hacking on that feature I've been working on all week. But I'm trying to open up space in my life in general to explore other hobby. Like So like the the music thing for me is a is a big deal.
Brian Casel:I You know, I I've been a lifelong musician and producer and and songwriter and and I and for the last couple of decades really, I haven't been able to really do that because that's the type of hobby that I can't just dip into it for twenty minutes. I could pick up my guitar and strum for twenty minutes.
Jordan Gal:Mhmm.
Brian Casel:And I'll do that but I can't create. I can't lay down some tracks and record and mix and master and and ship a song. Like that takes
Jordan Gal:Yeah. It's hours.
Brian Casel:Multiple days and of of work to to And like creative energy like it's it's just as much if not more energy draining than building a software product
Jordan Gal:Mhmm.
Brian Casel:To do that type of creative work. And, it's something that I've I've I've strongly about for my whole entire life but I haven't really been able to create on on that side of things. So, that that's like the that's like the one thing that I would like to insert into my life more that I that I haven't been able to. And and so that's like my immediate thought is that if I have Fridays off then like I should be spending that time in in in the music studio studio.
Jordan Gal:Sounds lovely.
Brian Casel:You know, I I would like to But I would also just like to have it off to be to be able to say like, I'm gonna do like a day long bike ride today or or I'm not Or it's raining and I'm No one's around.
Jordan Gal:I'm just
Brian Casel:gonna watch a movie. Mhmm. Don't care. Like, it's it's not a workday.
Jordan Gal:Right. Right. It's just just your time. I I I I think it's great. I I I'm not there.
Jordan Gal:I hope I hope to get inspiration from your ability to accomplish it in one form or another. Maybe it's not every single Friday, maybe it is, but whatever it is, I am definitely still in the trap of delayed gratification on that. And I wanna push super hard. That's my mindset. Right?
Jordan Gal:I raised money and pushing Superbond Rosie, go crazy for another two, three years, build this thing into a monster like the you know, I I I'm I got the six year time horizon before the kid goes to college. So I I guess I'm I'm my
Brian Casel:my oldest is two years behind yours, but we we have that too. But but you know, but the the Going back to the the stress and the burnout from from earlier in the year, again, I had no income for three years. I I was I was living off of runway. And and so like now that I've put it back together in terms of like, now I'm settling in to this new business, this new reality where I where I It is profitable, it is bootstrapped and profitable and I have these assets that that pay the bills and then some. It's still early, it's still super young.
Brian Casel:This is still like a toddler business in in the lifespan of of a business. Right? Like it's just getting off the ground right now but I That was my biggest challenge and my biggest goal that I achieved in '24 was settling into this new thing. And so now that I've done that, I have to like actually feel the effects of it. Not, you know, which is like getting that that ROI of being a being able to self fund and bootstrap a profitable business that makes a a good living now.
Brian Casel:Mhmm. And for multiple years going into the future. Of course, the thing the the goal is to grow. Like I I wanna grow the revenue. I wanna I wanna grow the product line.
Brian Casel:All of that is gonna grow in '20 in '25. I'm still as ambitious on all that as I always have been. But I have to learn how to like like getting to getting to do that for a living is is the payoff. Mhmm. And, whatever future exits or big wins like that's that should be like a nice icing on the cake if if it were to ever happen.
Brian Casel:But like I I'm I'm trying to like really I don't know, enjoy it more, I guess.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I I think you put yourself into a position where you you can have your cake and eat it too. I I don't think taking Fridays to yourself will negatively impact your revenue very much at all. In some ways it could positively impact it. I just don't think it it makes this huge Yeah.
Brian Casel:Like I was saying like like because because my team is the is is are the ones who execute the the work. So like I could still like book sales and book projects and MRR can still grow on Clarity Flow. Like all of that is is already today like decoupled from me sitting at my computer doing the work. Right? So so that's why I don't think it will actually impact the bottom line like it should grow Mhmm.
Brian Casel:Regardless. Yeah. The only thing that it will impact is like it's it's one less day to make progress on building new stuff. Right?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I think that's I think that's that's well worth it if you can make it happen.
Brian Casel:Yeah. But that but I mean just like last one for me here is like build and ship more in
Jordan Gal:2025.
Brian Casel:Yeah. You know, because because like and that's not just random like that that is the business model that I'm in in in instrumental products It's like we are a products studio and right now all of our revenue comes from building products for clients and that'll continue obviously. But in building instrumental components and that's that'll be fully built out and shipped in January. Like we are set up to build out a portfolio of small like SaaS products. I'm not going all in on any of them but like the the idea is because like we already have the systems and the team in place now
Jordan Gal:to like For your own
Pippin Williamson:for you? Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Oh, okay.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I mean, the components product is product number one. I I expect to be shipping many more products of our own Oh. In 2025.
Jordan Gal:I don't think I I had that in in mind. I thought it was you know, increase of agency products for other people
Brian Casel:that too. It's it's all of that and it's all connected because we are built We are a app building factory. That's what Instrumentl Products is. Even right now, the the products we build for clients, they more or less look the same. They function differently.
Brian Casel:We build different features. But we we use our components. We build things in the same way. We use Ruby on Rails. We have a process.
Brian Casel:Yep. And we can execute that process to build out whatever small products we wanna build. Now, the the other thing is that the way that I Like my plan for growing this business, for marketing this business is content. Video content showing on video the things that we build using our components and how we build and our opinions on on designing and building products. So by building more of our own products, that's yes, they're products in the their own but it's material for the YouTube channel or content to get us out there and shipping more which develops the brand, which develops word-of-mouth and that's what drives leads for the high end offer which is our done for
Jordan Gal:you service.
Brian Casel:Like that that's how it all fits together. That's what I'm building with Instrumentl products and I'm fired up about it because I It's it's like built like the the product studio, the the portfolio model type business especially with software. Like that's something that I've been wanting to build my entire career frankly and I just haven't. Maybe out of fear, maybe convincing myself that it could that I I shouldn't be doing that. That I should be going all in on one thing.
Brian Casel:I know it This this game is it works differently for different people but but for me, like this is my my Like I'm in my element when I'm operating this way. Where I have an asset over here and an asset over there and it's profitable. I put small teams in place and we can just bootstrap. That works for me and I mean literally like the years where I went away from that and I went all in did not work. Yeah.
Brian Casel:Wasn't good
Jordan Gal:for me.
Brian Casel:It wasn't good for me. Mhmm. And now that I'm back to it, like it's it's it's just a lot better on all fronts.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. There's there's no one way to do it. For me on the other hand, million ARR by q two. Let's go. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I like it. Cool.
Brian Casel:Do you like Yeah. Like like do you have any like other like like hard goals or or numbers like I Is that it like in in 2025 like
Jordan Gal:Yes. And that is directly tied to runway and burn. So my general sense is if we can get to a million ARR in around that time frame with with some buffer, you know, q three
Brian Casel:q two?
Jordan Gal:Yes. Well, that's the ambitious part. If it's q three, even if it's q four in in reality.
Brian Casel:Even like and I I mean, I I don't doubt that that's possible.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I think so.
Brian Casel:But but like real talk, like that is hockey stick.
Jordan Gal:It's hockey stick ish. Yeah. Yeah. We we cheat. We we buy It's cheating.
Jordan Gal:Of course. Like that Yep.
Brian Casel:That's the game you're in.
Jordan Gal:Yes. Right? Yes. The game is the game is no shame in cheating. Do whatever you can.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I mean
Jordan Gal:that's not cheating. That's Yes.
Brian Casel:You're you're playing the
Jordan Gal:game.
Brian Casel:Yes. Exactly. But yeah. I mean that's that's ambitious Yeah.
Jordan Gal:I I think it's the right level. It's not absurd based on what we're seeing in ads and our current revenue and everything else, but if we can get there we are sustainable. We are not profitable but we are sustainable. Like given how much is in the bank, what that would do to runway, we access to capital in terms of lines of credit or whatever else, like we are sustainable. We can get to profitability off of what's in the bank and I like to think about that as the downside protection, and then go out and talk with investors in q one and kinda see what's going on because there are there are bets being made based on the space and the team just as much as there are on metrics.
Jordan Gal:So there are a lot of VCs out there that want to make a bet in AI voice, they have not made a bet yet. And to come across a good quality team with real revenue and a product, like, there's a decent chance to be able to raise money. I don't know if I I don't wanna raise money in q one, but it makes sense to go out there and talk to people and show them what we're doing and then we can kinda keep track. So, like, downside protection is sustainability and upside is let's make sure the market knows what what we're doing because you you never know.
Brian Casel:So you're looking like at at some point in 2025 like another like round.
Jordan Gal:I that's not my goal for 2025.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:But it it makes sense to make the rounds and talk to people because if a round feels likely in an advantageous way, you know, there there is still
Brian Casel:Yeah. Like put like put yourself in a position to
Jordan Gal:Exactly. And if talking to someone in January and then keeping them updated in February and March and then if April you hit your inflection point and revenue pops because you spoke to them in January, you can make it happen in a much easier way than let's go put together a round and let's go do the whole thing and it's just much easier that way.
Brian Casel:That that's I've always been terrible at that that side of of networking. It's like planting these seeds that that yeah. It's
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I think I think that makes sense. I don't know that we wanna do that. The way I think the right way to think about it is you only wanna raise money from a position of strength. Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:And to do that at and to make yourself sustainable is just grow revenue. So it's it is just about growing revenue but there are some other things that I should do given the position that we're in and raising, having raised money and all that that we should also engage with the capital markets the same way. Not the same way, but in addition to looking to build a sustainable business.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I hear that.
Jordan Gal:Cool man.
Brian Casel:Shit man.
Jordan Gal:Well, let's It's been awesome
Brian Casel:to see Rosie like come together especially in the last half a year and like, I I feel like again like we're two completely different businesses
Jordan Gal:Yeah.
Brian Casel:Different trajectories.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. So, But it's like
Brian Casel:it's like the the momentum is is in the same kinda kinda kinda gear.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Hell yeah. And for everyone listening out there, we hope the same for you. Big 2025, '20 Yeah. '24 the right way.
Jordan Gal:Enjoy fam. Brian's got the right dream, four days a week
Brian Casel:What do
Jordan Gal:you and more money. Hell yeah. Thanks very much everyone for listening. Happy New Year. Merry Christmas.
Jordan Gal:Happy Hanukkah. Everything else Alright.
Brian Casel:Thanks, folks. Cheers.
