2025 recap & 2026 outlook
Hey, here we are. It's we're back. It's Bootstrap Web, back for our, our biannual update episode.
Jordan Gal:Yes. We're back.
Brian Casel:What's up, Jordan?
Jordan Gal:Well, what's up, man? Great to see you.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah. You too. We were just catching up and yeah. I'm psyched about this dude.
Jordan Gal:Me too. End of the year. I got a few days left. I'm heading out on Sunday. So today, tomorrow, Friday and then done for the year.
Jordan Gal:I'm gonna really try to unplug.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I always try and I always fail to unplug. But I I actually just got back from my from a little December trip. Just just me and Amy. We went down to Costa Rica.
Brian Casel:So that was like our break, our our pre holiday break and now now we're gonna I'm still pushing of course but but we're gonna try to keep it you know, take it easy for the rest of December here.
Jordan Gal:Nice. Yeah. I heard I heard you do the the walk and talk type of recording in in Costa Rica. Yeah. How was that break?
Jordan Gal:I have not been there before. It sounds great.
Brian Casel:Yeah. It's great. It's actually our our second time there. We were there like fifteen years ago and actually the same area of Costa Rica near the Quepos area and yeah. A good time.
Brian Casel:We we stayed right by the beach. We also stayed by Manuel Antonio National Parks. We did some nice hiking. Saw some saw some crazy animals and jungles.
Jordan Gal:Good few.
Brian Casel:Good times.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Well I'm going less tropical on my break. I'm going to Washington DC. Okay. But very much looking forward to it.
Jordan Gal:My my theme is more Kindle, less phone.
Brian Casel:I like it.
Jordan Gal:That's what I'm going in. And and and maybe this is a good place to start where it's where it's not on business. Mhmm. I came across a book. I think I bought it a few months ago but didn't have a chance to read it.
Jordan Gal:Then I was in a bookstore buying like Hanukkah and Christmas gifts. And I saw it, so I picked it up and started reading it. It's a book called The Greatest Sentence Ever Written.
Brian Casel:Oh, I heard heard I about that.
Jordan Gal:It's it's lovely. It's it's it's Walter Isaacson.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Isaacson. Right. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Right. Of all the biography fame. Mhmm. It's about the, you know, the sentence in the declaration of independence. We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed with their by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Jordan Gal:We're all familiar with the sense, but what this book does is it breaks down every part of the sentence Mhmm. And gives the background on how it came to be, where it started in the original drafts, how it was changed, why it was changed, and the history behind each sense. So now I'm like on like an intellectual rabbit hole right now.
Brian Casel:I love it.
Jordan Gal:Between Locke and Hume and Rousseau and how that leads to the founder. I'm like, this is exactly what I wanna be focused on.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:For the end of the year, not the news and the tech industry and whatever else.
Brian Casel:I love I love that like early American history like like the founding and and I'm always fascinated with like how they set up our system and and like like I mean America was like the ultimate like startup you know. Yeah. Experiment. A total experiment.
Jordan Gal:Right? Yep. Blank slate that could have gone horribly wrong Exactly. And miraculously was done as good has ever done it actually.
Brian Casel:Somehow we we keep trying to fuck it
Jordan Gal:up but we keep it going. Right? Yeah. I I mean, I I think part of the genius was the acknowledgement that we would try very hard to screw it up. Yes.
Jordan Gal:Because human nature does that. Yep. And how do you put these protections in place? So that's what I'm going into the end of the year. Trying to focus on the x timeline is a horror show Oh.
Jordan Gal:Right now. An absolute And horror then you look over in your house and you look at your family and your kids and things are so good. You're like, okay. How do I Exactly. Make sure that the last two weeks of the year are filled with more of that and less of the I don't know.
Jordan Gal:It's tough to tell. Is it the ugly truth? Is it reality? Is it a warped view of reality because we know things that we normally would not know? Whatever that combination of things is, there's a lot to be grateful for.
Jordan Gal:As much as we can focus on that.
Brian Casel:You're right about that that juxtaposition of like what you know, all the It's like what's happening in all over the world. It's it's just a horror show out there and but a lot of that I tend to tune out and I I feel like I've I start to realize like how tuned out I am of you know like world world news. Because a lot of the news is like not even news anymore. It's just like sort of either a circus act or or just horrible.
Jordan Gal:Right.
Brian Casel:But then I'm at home like we're going to basketball games, we're hanging out, we're reading, we're we're taking trips and like this is chill, know.
Jordan Gal:It's it's like a very difficult question these days. If it's better to know and be appalled and afraid or not to know and lean toward ignorance but be happier and more able to focus on, you know, when I when I leave my house, I mean, it's pretty good. Go I around town, I get
Brian Casel:a coffee, I got
Jordan Gal:a whole food. It's like it's all it's all good. I went to my middle daughter's concert last night. You see, you know, you see a few 100 kids and all their families supporting them. They're they're up there.
Jordan Gal:They're learning instruments. Like it's it is good good. All caps good. Yeah. Anyway.
Jordan Gal:We have to we juggle both. Sokos.
Brian Casel:That's right. So this is this has always been one of my favorite episodes that we do over the years. It's like the end of the year, the December. Yeah. We're talking talking about like taking breaks but I don't know about you, I'm always thinking about like, alright, I really do think in terms of years.
Brian Casel:I I look back on my career as like, I remember I remember that year, 2013. I remember 2018 that the Like I really The numbers matter to me in terms of like the calendar years. So I do try to take this time. It's one of the only times I I actually write to my personal blog these days is to do the yearly recaps and the and try to think think strategically about the year ahead. But yeah, should we get into it?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. And what what we said could make sense for this episode is a little bit twenty twenty five review and then a little twenty twenty six look ahead.
Brian Casel:Yes sir. And so I think that the last time obviously people might know us or follow us and stuff, but the last time they heard us on this feed, it was what, like six months ago?
Jordan Gal:It must have been six months ago.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Well, alright, why don't we start with a little like look back like what it Looking back on 2025, what's the first thing that comes to mind for you in terms of like the theme or the story for for your your work life?
Jordan Gal:Very straight forward headline for me is that the pivot worked. Yep. That's it. You know, '20 the pivot's Rosie's. Right.
Jordan Gal:So 2024, we were in between Rally, the checkout product and transitioning over to Rosie. So full pivot. Cut the team from 25 people to six. Scrap the old product entirely. Shut it down.
Jordan Gal:Stop accepting new customers. Let paying customers know that we were shutting down. They had x amount of time to get off. Okay. And then starting a completely new product from the brainstorm phase, like which idea should we pursue, and then building and then launching to early customers.
Jordan Gal:We launched to our first customers in September 2024. So between September 2024 and December '24 was our period of what is this thing? How do we get people to be interested? Who's the right customer profile? How do we find them?
Jordan Gal:What happens when they sign up? Are they happy? So it was very early stage first few months. And in those few months we did get positive feedback. We got some paying customers.
Jordan Gal:We added a few cane and MRR. We started go to market between advertising and cold email and whatever else. And then and then January is when it hit. January we I think we added maybe something like five k in the month of January. And then February was 10 and then and so on.
Jordan Gal:So in 2025 we added about 1,400 paying customers and 1,500,000 in ARR.
Brian Casel:Hell yeah, dude.
Jordan Gal:So that is faster than anything else that I have touched or started or anything else. So 2025, you know the headline.
Brian Casel:Rally or or actually say cart hook. Right? Like Yep. The comparison of this speed, the trajectory. Because I know you had a pretty fast thing.
Brian Casel:Not not really fast like I I think looking back years ago it kinda took you a little while to figure it out but then it went. Right?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. So funny enough that there there is an analogy there.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:It's not perfect because Karthoek went from one product in an industry to a different product in the same industry. Mhmm. And this is completely different between Rally, but but it's not that dissimilar in that we got a team together at Karthoek on one product and got to something around 10 to 15 k in MRR after twelve or eighteen months. And then pivoted to a new product and then that new product within a year got to a million ARR.
Brian Casel:Right.
Jordan Gal:So there's something there's some analogy there between the the the people, the trust built, the relationships, the, you know, the the the trust required to pivot successfully and not kind of tear each other apart. Yes. And and then, yeah, CartHook went the checkout product at Karthoek grew really fast. Once it was up and running. That first year was kind of very painful because it took us a while to get the product working properly because it was very complicated.
Jordan Gal:Checkout and payments and one click upsells and Shopify integration that they didn't want to have. All these things. This has been much more straightforward as an independent product that just kinda lives on the internet on its own. Doesn't have any dependencies around it other than infrastructure. No platform to integrate to right.
Jordan Gal:You take your existing phone number, you forward it to your rosy number. So it's definitely a lesson in there for us. On the pro and con, I think vertical voice AI products are generally growing even faster.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:And it's partly because they plug in to an existing ecosystem of integrations and products and CRMs and so on. And we have gone very independent. And I think we have the ability to grow much bigger because we span across industries.
Brian Casel:Yeah. So it's it's vertical voice, but it's like you're you're pretty much you still horizontal now like in terms of like the the type of customer that you're working with?
Jordan Gal:So right now the end of this year is when we are turning toward what what I have described as like have my cake and eat it too. Which is a horizontal product that can market itself to individual verticals in a very
Brian Casel:different channels landing pages.
Jordan Gal:That's right. So you can come in depending where you come in from, you can see it as Rosie's the best AI answering service for dog groomers.
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:And you see an ad for dog groomers. You see a landing page for dog groomers. You get into the product and then you get put into the same horizontal product as everyone else but it matches for you. Yeah. And over the last four weeks was we've done our first integrations.
Jordan Gal:So we've launched four integrations over the last four weeks and they are scheduling. Right? Calendly, Appointlet, Google Calendar, Acuity. So this is the the beginning of our plugging into ecosystems and other products and so on.
Brian Casel:Nice. Nice.
Jordan Gal:Yes. So 2025, you know, for me, the pivot worked.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Hell yeah.
Jordan Gal:How about you? 2025, you look back out of what's what's the headline?
Brian Casel:Yeah. I mean I had quite a pivot as well but I I really think of 2025 as Well so over Like bigger picture, if I think if I think back to like the last three years or so, I was you know, anyone who's been following my story, I've been sort of like in the desert sort of exploring like what is my next actual business that I'm That something that something that fits that fits my strengths I think but also something that that also hits. Right? Like I tried a bunch of different things. I I sort of explored or thought or dabbled in different things but nothing was quite really sticking.
Brian Casel:So like early twenty five, I launched Instrumental Components which was like a UI components product for Ruby on Rails and even like And that sort of dragged on. I I had wanted to launch that in 2024 but it dragged into early twenty twenty five. That did did fine. Like it was it felt good to sell something new again and I think before that my my last actual new product was Clarity Flow or you know, Zip Message before that but like, so it it had been a few years so it it felt good to get like the shipping muscles and and the selling muscles like with something new back you know, back in action early in the year but that was just a It just did fine in terms of revenue. Right?
Brian Casel:There wasn't like the action, there wasn't the heat behind it.
Jordan Gal:Yep. Fast forward to You know it hit pretty quickly.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Like I I I forgot exactly when we recorded our last episode on this but like I think it was June 2025 is when I started to really pivot into building with AI in terms of like And and this is something that looking back on it, I had been thinking about and plotting that like I think I need to get back to my roots as a teacher, as a creator, as someone who is definitely back into like building products and and that that craft of design and build building products. But also like talking and teaching and doing video and doing YouTube.
Jordan Gal:So That's that's your that's your special zone.
Brian Casel:That's my thing that that I I had been pretty successful with that earlier in my career and then I just let that go because I was sort of kinda kinda had tunnel vision on the on the whole SaaS
Jordan Gal:dream Yep.
Brian Casel:Kinda thing. But I but I knew that I that in 2025 I wanted to get back in that direction. But I had I was sort of tied up in some consulting stuff. I was doing the instrumental components. I was doing this or that.
Brian Casel:I was still kind of doing things on Clarity Flow. And so it wasn't until like June 2025 is when I finally said like, alright, let's go. Let's let's finally do the business that I I My gut instinct is like the the world is changing with AI and that's especially especially true. Like, we are the tip of the wave here in the software design and development industry. Right?
Brian Casel:Yep. You know, we I think it's pretty clear that AI is actually changing the whole world, but it's still a little bit slow in terms of like the normies and the mainstream. But us here, those of us who are coding, like I don't know about you, but the way that I build software today is 100% different than it was like only twelve months ago. Yeah. You know?
Brian Casel:It's crazy. I don't
Jordan Gal:know anyone whose entire world around software development has not changed completely in such a short amount
Brian Casel:of time.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Incredible. But
Brian Casel:so what's interesting is like on my YouTube channel, I I knew I wanted to go in that direction of like creating, building an audience again. I wasn't exactly sure what direction to point that in and I I'd start I I started pushing on YouTube even back in 2024. Doing a lot of videos about Ruby on Rails, talking about the instrumental components and stuff. But that, you know, it it sort of just didn't didn't really do so well. 100 views, 200 views.
Brian Casel:I I was sort of stuck around 202,000 subscribers on my channel. June 2025, I make the pivot to build talking about building with AI and it was sort of like overnight. Before then,
Jordan Gal:what was the topic of
Brian Casel:the YouTube videos? Mostly Ruby on Rails. Okay. Interestingly, I did one video earlier, maybe March or April about Ruby on Rails on AI and that video did pretty well. Okay.
Brian Casel:But everything else not so great. And then in June, I started talking about like exclusively about like in general building with AI. Not like no longer focusing on Rails, just focusing on the industry of software development in general with AI, getting into Cloud Code, getting into Cursor, what it means for us as developers, talking about our workflows. And these these videos started to really really hit. Going from hundreds to thousands to tens of thousands of views, you know.
Jordan Gal:Did you find yourself focusing on like, not product reviews, but talking about how you're using an individual product like Cursor or how you're happened.
Brian Casel:I I think I think one of the early hits was just just a general video about, I think it was called like how vibe coding goes pro. Okay. And that was when I started to to identify the pattern of spec driven development. Basically emphasizing the planning phase first before you have your coding agents build build off of the plan. But then shortly after that and this was this is something that I was not expecting, not even planning, not strategically, no no chess moves here.
Jordan Gal:Okay.
Brian Casel:But I was sort of just hacking on my own workflow adapting how I'm starting to use AI. I'm getting excited about this idea of spec driven development. That seems like a more professional craftsman like way to build software. The tooling hadn't quite caught up to the idea of spec driven development. So I started hacking on this idea called Agent OS.
Brian Casel:Mhmm. Which is like a framework of basically commands and markdown files and and some some framework like a like a framework that you can use on top of Cloud Code, on top of Cursor, on top of whatever coding tool, tooling you're using. And the idea was that it would it would help to help to systemize the training for your coding agents and give you some process. Get get and and really give you some structure around spectrum and development. And at the when I released that, which was June or July of of twenty twenty five, the the tools First of all, the tools move so incredibly fast.
Brian Casel:Like there's a lot of stuff that that we have today that wasn't even available three, four months ago. Like things things like plan mode and cursor and
Jordan Gal:Mhmm.
Brian Casel:And the the current models like Opus and that wasn't around yet. So so that hit and like Agent OS hit and I released it as a free open source tool and it was really sort of like on a whim at first. I was like this is just a tool that's gonna help me build products faster and then I did a YouTube video about it, that YouTube did something like 40,000 views in a a week. And and so I ended up the GitHub, my first ever free open source GitHub project, thousands of stars and I'm like, what is happening? I don't even know how to manage a free open source project.
Brian Casel:What what's like I'm I'm asking like Adam Wathen and and everyone's like like Is this secure?
Jordan Gal:What you doing with
Brian Casel:all these issues and PRs that people are submitting? Like what's happening you know? So so it took me a little while to just figure out that whole game but that that brought a lot of energy into my funnel. People coming into the YouTube channel. So June, July, it's only content.
Brian Casel:Like I I know that I'm building an audience. I think I had started my website for buildermethods.com and I started growing the email list. I I start I was like, alright, this is There there's some excitement here. Let me make sure I'm I'm promoting the the newsletter on every video. So I started doing that and then it was like September is when I started to actually sell something.
Brian Casel:The first thing was a live workshop. The first one was like $25 a ticket. Sold like, I don't know, over a 100 of those. And then by the September, I launched Builder Methods Pro which is my membership subscription. That's like the flagship product and that started selling regularly.
Brian Casel:So you know, basically right away. September, October, November, like it's all been pretty pretty solid and and then it's like, what's really interesting there is that it's like the YouTube channel distribution channel actually works. There's probably an old viewpoint of of YouTube that it's like, yeah, you'll get a lot of views but are they really gonna turn into customers or subscribers and like in in this space like, yes, they do. They they come.
Jordan Gal:They leave YouTube and go to your site and subscribe.
Brian Casel:They go straight to the email list and and they become members of Builder Methods Pro. So you know, I I really didn't expect to be in like the free open source software game. That's a that's a new thing and actually today, this week I'm launching the second one of those that I'm calling Design OS. Another sort of framework that that helps with the process. More on the on the front end design side of of the of the process with AI.
Brian Casel:I'm pretty, I'm really excited about this one. I I don't know if it'll have the same you know, the same effect
Jordan Gal:Yeah, tough to tell.
Brian Casel:I've had a bunch of like early access surveys on it that that are coming in pretty pretty steadily. So, really excited about that and now I'm just going. Know, I'm working this funnel. I'm I'm creating a ton of content. Learning a ton about the YouTube game and video production and what it means to be a creator and a builder and a teacher again.
Brian Casel:And just kind of bringing those muscles back in into the game.
Jordan Gal:It's super interesting in terms of going with where the energy is in 2025. Yeah. You know, I I think both of us jumped on the bandwagon properly. Rightfully. Because that's where that's where the gigantic Mississippi River Of demand was.
Brian Casel:Yep.
Jordan Gal:That's where things are going. I do think if there's any chess moves on your side to identify it's that you avoided teaching the non developers how to vibe code and you stayed where you want to teach, which is people who are professionals, but they want to get better. They want to catch up. This is we we were touching on this before we started recording. I wanna ask you about it.
Jordan Gal:Where for our product it's a traditional well of demand. It is I'm running my dog grooming business, my solo law firm, my landscaping business, and I just have my regular set of business problems, one of those problems is pretty painful around the phone. I miss leads when I'm closed. I don't want an answer. Like very kind of traditional pain point from where demand and then this new innovation comes out and there's a new form of supply.
Jordan Gal:Right? The the the supply to the demand was always voicemail, third party answering service, VA, kind of it was it was very stale. That's the only supply that could reach that demand. And then all of a sudden this new form of supply comes in. So almost very traditional software problem solution kind of thing.
Jordan Gal:Mhmm. The only thing new there was that, you know, something new gets invented and now there's like a new category. Great. On on your side, where's the, like, demand? Where's the where's the problem?
Jordan Gal:Where's the emotion? Is it to be ahead of everyone else? Is it to catch up with everyone else? Is it FOMO? Like what is that driver of why people are so do they wanna be awesome?
Jordan Gal:Do they wanna make a lot of money? Do they feel like they're getting left behind in their career? Where is it?
Brian Casel:Overall, there is a massive wave. Like it there's there's just no question about that. But then within that wave, there are different different flavors of it. And I'm seeing all of them. Like like you said, I think since the beginning I've been a little bit more focused on on speaking to what I think, I call them like the professional developer.
Brian Casel:So you're already a You're already in this career. You're a career developer either working at a company or doing your own thing but but you're not hacking on the weekends, you're not a wantrepreneur, you are a professional So so one flavor of the of the demand is adaptation. Right? So so I've been hand coding my whole career. I'm a full stack developer or I'm a back end developer or I'm a front end person and I've always done it by hand.
Brian Casel:But now that we have Cloud Code and and now that the and now that these things are actually getting really good, I need to not only It's simple enough to just learn how to how the tools work. You you could figure out pretty easily like how to use Cloud Code. What I think most developers are need is like, yeah but like how how is this changing our workflow? How are we thinking differently about our process? The way that of of the whole process of designing and creating and shipping and perfecting software is completely different now.
Brian Casel:It's not, it's obviously it's it's so much faster but literally the sequence of steps that we take is completely different when you're doing it with with agents. So there's a lot of developers out there who are just like, well, how how do people do this? What are the little hacks that the tricks of the trade? What So that's part of where like agent OS comes in play. They're like, oh, this adds structure that I can plug in to my process, but also plug in with my team and get my whole team on board with Agent OS.
Brian Casel:I'm seeing a lot of that. Coming in general.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I mean, right. My anecdote is that we've had a pretty significant amount of growth. We haven't hired anyone. We don't need
Brian Casel:to hire anyone. And
Jordan Gal:everyone's quite happy with this very small team and being able to be more efficient on their own. And not you know, there's no pressure from there's cheerleading from management. Yep. I'm a cheerleader. I'm not well if you can be more efficient, then I expect more and faster.
Jordan Gal:It's just it's almost entirely positive. What what I wanna ask you about
Brian Casel:But there but like there there's other there's other like flavors of the of the demand too. Right? Like there's also there there's definitely still a lot of people who who do want to just start up new products. Okay. Whether they're founders or startups.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I wonder if
Jordan Gal:your design side can combine so that you're seen as like, I I can can learn from this person to do the entire I
Brian Casel:think it will. Especially this new design OS product is it's really aimed at designing new products so but I know that like members of Builder Methods Pro, there's definitely a big segment of them who are here to like, they're hacking on new startup ideas like MVPs and stuff. But then then there's another level of it which is the team element. And I've had a lot of like sales calls with people and I'm starting to also sell these like private team engagements. The main thing that I'm selling these days is Builder Methods Pro, that's the vast majority of of of the of the revenue.
Brian Casel:But there is this secondary level, it's almost like I'm not even promoting it, I just get these leads sort of behind behind the scenes which is like teams wanting to figure out how to get get their engineering team, get their product team to adopt AI consistently, effectively in a in a in a standardized way. Right?
Jordan Gal:Right. As opposed to just hoping that the individual members of your engineering team go off on
Brian Casel:their own
Jordan Gal:and learn this stuff and then bring it in. They they they wanna promote
Brian Casel:it. Yeah. It's like I do get a lot of people coming in who who just are employees or they work at a company so they themselves are trying to grow professionally. Okay. Their value in their company, that that happens.
Brian Casel:But then I I also have a lot of conversations with CEOs, CTOs, team leads who are looking for and all different sizes. Like I I just sold a private workshop engagement to a team of like 10 but then I had another call with a team of 400 and it's Okay. What what's interesting is like the even that that those those different size companies have the exact same pain points that I'm talking to them. Like I'm hearing this exact same phrases come up on these sales calls, right? Like one of them is like, you'll see a huge maybe 10% of the members of the team are actually really excited, really hyped about using AI, using Cloud Code and using all these things.
Brian Casel:The rest of them are sort of grumbling, sort of slow, they sort of like the old way of doing Yeah. Things you
Jordan Gal:Very natural.
Brian Casel:But the leadership wants the team to You know, it's not really about like replacing developers. It's like, guys, we can move, we can build so much more
Jordan Gal:you know. Crazy to ignore. Crazy to ignore.
Brian Casel:And at this point, that's the other, just also high level, I think we were talking about this before is like, if there's a general commonality among all the demand that I'm seeing there, it's this general feeling of like everybody feels like they are behind the curve. This is me included, know. Everyone. That's the zeitgeist, is it not? But even if you are, even if you consider yourself a little bit further ahead than most, you're still behind.
Brian Casel:Because this week, somebody, one of these big companies, Anthropic, OpenAI, Codex, Gemini, like, they're gonna drop some new feature that's totally new that changes the game or they say that it changes the game and you feel like you're behind. Right? Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. The hype cycle is working in your favor because anyone who is either ahead or has an interest in being perceived as ahead will go on x and and tweet about it and brag about it. And then everyone feels like they're behind again. Then the cycle repeats. So there is a general feeling of I'm not growing fast enough.
Jordan Gal:I don't know the tools well enough. I don't know what's if I'm using the latest thing that's right because the the the changes are so rapid. I wanna ask you about one one I saw recently what I would call a sense of sobriety in like the second half of twenty twenty five. The 2025 was like everything's gonna be different. Everything's amazing.
Jordan Gal:Everything takes no time. And then people kind of sobered up. And I I saw some very healthy conversations specifically with Taylor Atwell at Laravel and Adam Wathan.
Brian Casel:Yep.
Jordan Gal:And I saw them describing like, yes, we're bought in. Absolutely. Yes. But we're seeing people skip certain steps in their education and we we foresee that turning into cracks in the foundation. Because people are skipping ahead on understanding what's happening under the hood.
Jordan Gal:Maintenance of products is something that's ignored in the beginning because everyone ignores it in the beginning and then later on it becomes more difficult. So there seems to be a shift in like, you know, I recently listened to Aaron and Ian on their podcast and they were think it was AI Bro, I think was the name
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:The title of the podcast.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:And it was great to hear people very experienced describing the changes in their workflow and their attitudes and how they're adopting it. But it does seem to start to move in this direction of, okay, how do we
Brian Casel:really know what the code is doing anymore?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. How do we combine this with doing things properly so that we can maintain great products for a long period of time?
Brian Casel:I think it's really
Jordan Gal:poo pooing and ignoring all the innovation and all the new products available.
Brian Casel:I I think that there, yeah, you're totally right. There there are a few different parallel movements that I've seen happen over the last over the last year, especially in the second six months of this year. I think early in the year and 2024 into early twenty twenty five, I think there was still generally a lot of skepticism from professional developers. I'm talking about software people, right? Some people were were getting excited about and believe it or not, Claude Code launched in early twenty twenty five.
Brian Casel:People forget like it's still new. It did not exist in 2024. It It has just
Jordan Gal:won the market in our company entirely.
Brian Casel:I think it's it's won most people still, like I I also use cursor but I use Cloud Code a lot. But anyway, in There was still a lot of skepticism from, especially from long time professional, high level developers who was like, you know, yeah, okay, it could it could do this or that but like it's not better than me hand coding my my software or or it's or it's I just don't it or or it'll you know, hallucinate and do this crap. Yeah. I think as you get to the 2025, as the newer models, the Opus four point fives and the Gemini three and and Codex and you know, GPT five, That's when I just I feel like all that skepticism started to fall away and you just don't hear it as much anymore
Jordan Gal:and it's Straightforward head on, this is not gonna work skepticism. It's it's back into
Brian Casel:I think I think it has turned into like like, you you cannot make the argument that like, Opus 4.5 will write bad code. Like, no. It it it's it's incredible. It's, you know
Jordan Gal:a lot. Things that's not being used properly. And that's a big shift in the conversation.
Brian Casel:The inputs are wrong. The the structure is wrong. The process, the way that you're prompting, the way that you're writing specs is is wrong. But it
Jordan Gal:Is is that why it's moved into basically focusing on the specs and the planning and the organization
Brian Casel:I think that's big part of it. But but in general, it's like a I'm just noticing like a general trust has started to set in. And also it's like an inevitability of it. I think people who are long time developers are like, okay, this isn't just a trend, this isn't just a thing that like I either need to decide to use it or decide not to use it. Think it's becoming more like actually it's borderline malpractice if you're not using Cloud Code and and you're a professional developer, you know.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. The skepticism has retreated into a a 1% of you know, never coder, never AI or
Brian Casel:whatever. Yeah. And so, but then it's still totally up in the air. It in the wild west of like what is the right workflow? And that's what's most interesting to me and if you watch any of my content like I'm constantly focused on like, okay, like they just dropped this exciting new tool or this or that and people are talking about this but like, how does that actually affect like how I build a real piece of software?
Brian Casel:What's the workflow? What's gonna need to change? How do I need to think differently about this? Like that's what fascinates me and I think most people and I still think that there is like a huge gap in understanding of So I just started recording a new podcast. I haven't published it yet but I've been doing episodes.
Brian Casel:It'll become like the builder methods podcast or something.
Jordan Gal:Okay.
Brian Casel:Where I'm inviting other builders, people who build software. So I had like Arvid Call, I had Brennan Dunn, I had a couple other people on there recently. I'm doing one later this afternoon where Just share your screen, show me how you build stuff. What Like and I'm just gonna poke, I'm just gonna ask a ton of questions. Like alright, so oh, you And what's so fascinating to
Jordan Gal:me is
Brian Casel:like every single person, these are people who use AI every single day. Yeah. They, every single person uses it completely differently. They all have different frameworks, different processes Endlessly fast. Tricks.
Brian Casel:Endlessly It's so fascinating. Yeah. You know? And they're all super effective in completely different ways.
Jordan Gal:It's like talking to business people on how you do marketing. Know? Yeah. How you grow? How do you hire?
Jordan Gal:Everything, of course, is different. What's interesting is how you got to where you are and of course you can continue to improve and there is no right or wrong. So it it can be endlessly fascinating because Yep. People's personalities can, you know, will move And
Brian Casel:it's like Their it's like how people learn and how do how do people adopt. Right? It's like you have to understand your current workflow and then say, oh there's this new way of doing things. How does this slot in or what do I need to change to be more effective? And then, you know, that's the other movement that I'm that I'm starting to see in my own work.
Brian Casel:I went from totally hand coding everything to hand like half, half and half. Right? I would use AI to speed things up and I'm still micromanaging where all the code goes in my code base so I know exactly what's going on. And now, like I've I've built a couple apps recently where I did not handwrite a single line of code. It's all through through the AI interface.
Brian Casel:And that influences like what's my tech stack? Like I used to be like a Ruby on Rails purist and now now I'm starting to build with like Rails with React. You know, Inertia React. So like, I I used to be very anti React but now that I'm not the one writing all that ugly React code, it is more effective when I'm using AI in the process.
Jordan Gal:Okay. You know? Interesting. The I think there's happening between commercially available software, I guess you would call it, that people are selling to the public
Brian Casel:Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:As opposed to building internal tools. Right? The the needs of those two categories are completely different. If I'm going to Manus and building something that helps me in a go to market activity that is onerous if I do it manually and beautiful if Manus does it for me, I don't. Don't care about the same things as if I'm building a product that I want people to put a credit card and pay for.
Jordan Gal:And and and those those camps seem to be splitting also where the my favorite version of it is you you see someone post on Twitter saying, I really don't like this software that we use and it costs $5,000 a year. And I was experimenting this weekend and now I found something that does like 95% of it. And and I'm happy with it and I don't care that it isn't gonna be maintainable and I can't have a thousand people using it and it's not connected to it just works for my company and myself.
Brian Casel:Yeah. You mean like building like internal software? Yes. Yes. Like your own custom.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Your own tooling inside your company, inside your
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Own yourself. Yes. And and used to be professionalism even more.
Brian Casel:It used to be the question of like do we build or do we buy? Right? And and now it's like the build thing just got so much cheaper. You know, there's obviously different use cases, different different scenarios like how critical is the software, how much trust do we need to have behind it and how
Jordan Gal:much you know How important is it to your company if it goes wrong, can you maintain all If this employee leaves that built it are you, you know Yeah.
Brian Casel:Yes. I do think it's I I was talking to Justin about this on the on the panel podcast maybe last week. You know, Thirty Seven Signals just launched Fizzy. Yeah. And and they have that like open source version of
Jordan Gal:it. Yeah. Very interesting. I
Brian Casel:love
Jordan Gal:I love the debates that they create.
Brian Casel:Of course. Everybody loves them or hate them. But I I love the they're it's
Jordan Gal:not open source because it's not it's like literally playing directly into their hands. It's like Yeah. Exactly the way they wanted.
Brian Casel:And then of course like Matt Mullen weighs in and now it's like a whole like oh, this this is great. Let me get the possum. Like the What I think is really interesting there is I It'll be interesting to see how it plays out for them but I like the idea that like, because there's a lot of new SaaS tools that I'm like, yeah that's helpful but it's only like 70% of it. There's 30% that just doesn't fit right for me and that's probably the case with most SaaS tools that buy. We don't love it a 100%.
Brian Casel:Yeah. But they're offering an open source version. It's like well, I could just I could just grab that and have Cloud Code fix the other 30% for me. Uh-huh. You know?
Brian Casel:Yeah. And that's a pattern that I think might become, you know, I I wouldn't say it's like a SaaS killer in the future but like that's becoming a very real option I would say for for a lot of users, know.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. The the incentives around releasing that type of software is interesting. I don't know if you listen to Invest Like the Best, the Patrick O'Shaughnessy podcast. Very good podcast. Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:He recently had Gavin Baker on who is as knowledgeable on AI from a business and investment point of view as I've come across. And he was describing Google's incentive around subsidizing usage and how their their incentive is just very different from an independent company that's trying to make money. And you see something like 37 signals where you're like, I don't know if that's like the strategic you know art of war type move by them to open source this and kill the other I don't really think it's like that for them.
Brian Casel:No. I tend to think most of their moves are like gut feel.
Jordan Gal:Yes and ideological. Like we just think this is the right thing to do and this is what we like and this is how we wanna do it. Therefore go. But it is interesting that they can do that and can maintain that point of view and still build a good business. And I don't know if that leaks into other types of products markets.
Jordan Gal:We'll we'll see. There does seem to be no shortage of growth in a lot of different software categories. Not just pure AI coding products.
Brian Casel:Oh yeah.
Jordan Gal:So that's I mean that that's working just fine.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I mean what what you're doing with Rosie like you could you could start to see it like seep into the mainstream of like normies using using AI. Right?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. It's funny how both of us are in the right zone for us. For me, it is taking tech and pulling it down toward people who are not technical. Same Yep. CartHook did the same thing.
Jordan Gal:And for you, it's well what's going on right here and all the questions and demand around figuring out how to use it properly and how do we teach there and there's plenty to monetize it.
Brian Casel:I mean if there's one if there's one high level learning that I that I could take away from from what happened in my business in 2025 and like my finally get like, I would say like kinda trusting my gut and going going for it with builder methods and then it working is like, I can't look at that and say like, look, I was I was pushing on YouTube as a distribution channel for this business. I'm sorry, let me step back. Absolutely, the reason why this business worked is because I pushed I I established a distribution channel first. Right? Like like I I could be talking about AI or or selling stuff about AI but if nobody knows about it, there's no point.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. This is what you brought up in June by the way. You were like, no I think I need to go here and I'm not sure where I'm gonna sell yet. And we What we talked about was Right. Oh you're doing the classic thing.
Jordan Gal:You're doing the thing. You're you're building the audience first and you'll figure out what to sell later.
Brian Casel:I remember talking about that now. Yeah. I I wasn't I really wasn't sure like what shape my product offering is was gonna take. I I knew it would be some sort of like educational membership community kind of thing but yeah. So but like I think the thing is like I I can't just look back on my history and and look at my struggles with previous businesses and say like, oh if only I had run the playbook that I'm running for builder methods on this other insert any previous business there.
Brian Casel:Like no, I don't that would have worked. Right? Okay. And the reason why like I I do think that with when it comes to the distribution channel especially something that is like creator focused like YouTube, I think that there are two essential ingredients that came together. One is the massive demand, the natural wave that is happening in the world.
Brian Casel:Like that has to exist first. Okay. And number two, like it has to be I'm the one creating the videos. I'm the one writing the content and delivering it and being genuinely authentic and passionate about it and and just frankly having a point of view about it. The only way that that happens is if I'm personally invested If you can.
Brian Casel:In in the topic, in in in the topic space. Right? So like, I can't look at it and and look at like, I don't know, like Clarity Flow with coaches and say like, oh if only I had gone hard on a YouTube channel speaking to professional coaches. Well, I'm not a professional coach. I I have nothing to say about that you know.
Brian Casel:Mhmm. It just wouldn't have worked.
Jordan Gal:The match between those two things. Yeah. And and that might be relatively specific to the creator type Right. Of Right. So that makes sense.
Jordan Gal:The content, the the passion for lack of a better term, the Mhmm. Caring about it authenticity. Yeah. It makes sense.
Brian Casel:Yeah man. What else do you look back maybe we could start to look back and look forward but like Yeah. Are there any, I don't know, big like regrets or things that you're hoping to correct personally, professionally, business wise, looking back on '25, looking ahead to '26?
Jordan Gal:So I definitely we ran a lot of experiments and most of them failed. If I look back, I quote wasted, otherwise known as experiments that failed, hundreds of thousands of dollars in 2025. And I think feeling being okay with that was important for 2025 success overall. If I'm being self critical, one lesson that I didn't internalize well, I tried. One lesson in terms of the if you find a channel that works, go crazy in it.
Jordan Gal:I tried. Advertising really worked. We ramped it up a lot. Mhmm. And it kinda fell apart at a certain level and we had to retreat back and that's when we started experimenting with other channels.
Jordan Gal:None of the other channels have worked as well. So I don't know what that tells me. Know that's complicated. It's like we shouldn't have tried the other channels like whatever. So a lot of mistakes in 25 is
Brian Casel:It's like the classic thing with with ads is that like, you know, the the economics at at level a don't necessarily translate to level b level c.
Jordan Gal:Yes. Yes. So so that definitely happened to us. One thing I think we did really well is we we were not in a rush to expand the product. We Mhmm.
Jordan Gal:The market just told us that we didn't need to. And we were better off just staying very very narrowly focused in our feature set and getting better at it and making people happier and making churn go down than we were expanding. 2026 is when that changes. So if we if we like turn the corner and start to look forward, right now, Rosie is unichannel. It is a voice channel.
Jordan Gal:Right? It's a communication tool and it operates on one channel which is voice, one modality, whatever you wanna call it. And and the theme of 2026 will be to expand to new communication channels. And the interesting part of that that I I didn't I wasn't aware of along the way. But now it becomes very obvious.
Jordan Gal:We have just under 1,500 customers. And I've never been in this type of a situation where we can launch additional products to the same audience. So when we when we expand to new channels, right, SMS, outbound, email, chat, right, these are all different channels, same communication, you basically have a rosy brain that knows your business and it can communicate in different ways. What I've learned is that voice is not magic. It's just the same thing as an LLM with text.
Jordan Gal:There just happens to
Brian Casel:be a synthesizer. Mean, it's literally like reading text that it generates the text first and then it reads it. Right?
Jordan Gal:Like That that's right. And the internet is so damn fast these days that you can do it in a conversational timing. So when you start to realize that, you start to think, well okay. That's interesting. We can take this text and make it valuable in other places.
Brian Casel:And I remember this was something you when you were first pivoting to Rosie or the strategy behind it. It was like, this is something that gets us in with small businesses and then we can expand Yes. Into other stuff.
Jordan Gal:Yes. So that is q one we're gonna be releasing the next channel, the next modality. We're gonna focus on SMS. And it's it's interesting to build it in such a way where you can basically launch something that's not public but you're launching it to 1,500 paying customers. So my you know my You're planning
Brian Casel:gonna get that that early start with it.
Jordan Gal:Yes. Right. So look at the math. Right. Straightforward.
Jordan Gal:1,500 paying customers if 20% of them say yes to this offer in the first sixty ninety days. That's 300 customers. If it's an average revenue per user of a $100, you you just added 30 k in MRR. You haven't released it publicly yet. So so that's kind of like what 2026 should look like is how do we provide more value to our existing customers and then that in a secondary effect makes the product more valuable to new people.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I could really see that working well for you too. I could just thinking about like SMS, that is how most people want to communicate
Jordan Gal:That's right.
Brian Casel:With businesses. Most people don't wanna talk to anyone even if it's a robot, know.
Jordan Gal:Yes. And we also need to acknowledge that. It's also it's also very exciting. The fact that we are handling the pain of what's probably the smallest communication channel for these customers. People who actually call the phone.
Jordan Gal:It's very high pain, high reward, whatever you wanna call it because people who call are most likely to buy or they're most likely to be upset. So you do need to take care of them. But in reality where's the majority of their activity? It's on their website. It's on Yelp.
Jordan Gal:It's on Angie's List. It's on these other places that exist that are not voice. And so that just makes me look at 2026 and be really excited. Like oh this is just the beginning. And if this voice is a wedge of like this innovative like solution to get in with people, the challenge is gonna be to not dilute the message too much.
Jordan Gal:Because right now when you get to the Rosie website, you're like never miss another opportunity just because you can't answer the phone.
Brian Casel:I could see how that'll be challenging. Think about all those think about it's like all the email marketing tools, they all tried to add in the SMS or even like sending postcards and all this different stuff and it's like, I just care about the emails guys. I don't wanna do, you know, but like but you could see, I'm sure they have channels where they are selling that to.
Jordan Gal:That's right. But the entry point is complicated which is why
Brian Casel:having the existing customer base the sales the sales conversations happen on the back end. Know, you
Jordan Gal:don't have to That's have right. Like it might be a voice AI funnel that does a very good job at upselling 20% of people in this new product. Now But I I can
Brian Casel:even see a year from now where it's flipped. Right? You're
Jordan Gal:I Yep. That's right. Which is very strange to think about but so but so it goes.
Brian Casel:Yeah.
Jordan Gal:And in many ways, you know, when we have this conversation six months from today, we'll we'll be able to talk about what that product and positioning and messaging journey looked like. Because right now, I'm just pushing it off on purpose. Because when we come out to our existing customers and we work with them, they're gonna tell us how to position it.
Brian Casel:Right.
Jordan Gal:They're gonna tell us if we have the pricing right, if we have the positioning right, how they think about it, which one they think about first, whether it's voice or SMS. And it's almost like we're better off launching internally, learning and then putting it out publicly on the site to and and we'll we'll be much better off in our positioning and and then.
Brian Casel:That strategy. That that makes total sense.
Jordan Gal:Yep. So that's that's q one. And, you know, there's other stuff behind that you can see on the horizon. But what's clearest of in 2026 is to go from unichannel to multichannel. How that's gonna unfold?
Jordan Gal:Not sure. But SMS is gonna be first at the right place to start. And so right. If we added 1,500,000 ARR in 2025, we should put a big ass goal for 2026. Right?
Jordan Gal:How do we add 5,000,000 ARR in '26? Yep. And and then start working backwards around, okay, what's the existing customer base? What's the ARPU that we can get to from the existing customer base? Where should it go?
Jordan Gal:What percentage of people are gonna convert to these other things? And then you know kinda go from there. But that's the challenge is take a break for the holidays and then in January get this thing launched to our existing customers and then start learning.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:For What do you see right. January comes around, what do you focus on and then what do you think about the year in general?
Brian Casel:You know, I'm even just starting to think about this like now, like this week. Because up up until now, as I'm as I'm hearing like the fourth month of this working. Like December has already equaled what I what I brought in in November. Okay.
Jordan Gal:And you're halfway through.
Brian Casel:So was like, yeah halfway through. So like so like this, the funnel is working as it as it stands today. Right? Like YouTube channel, email list, I sell live workshops, I sell the membership. Right?
Brian Casel:That technically works and what that what that requires, like to me the most important aspect of of this business right now is my ability to create high quality video content and get it out on YouTube. That is the funnel like or or
Jordan Gal:that's the engine.
Brian Casel:That's the engine. Right? Yep. So like that does, personally that that adds some some urgency like every every week I have to be creating something that I think is great. I I pour a ton of energy and time and hours and days to make a single YouTube video.
Brian Casel:So that's a little tiring. I'm not I I I'm not stopping that at any time soon.
Jordan Gal:Well, it's working which gives you energy.
Brian Casel:It's working and I like it. It's it's hard but I like it. But part of me is also like, it is very hit and miss. I You could literally just see it on my YouTube channel like like, yeah, I start to get a sense for like what topics are going Are probably going to hit but I don't always know. And and so then, now is when I'm starting to feel a little Fragile is the wrong word in terms of like, can this thing fall apart?
Brian Casel:Because I I think if I if I change absolutely nothing, there should be some expected growth to just naturally happen in '26. Right? My YouTube channel is gonna continue to incrementally grow because I'm gonna continue to do content, right? Like I think going from like, I'm at 23 k subs, like getting to 50 k by mid year is pretty realistic I would say. Maybe a 100 by the end of the year, maybe a stretch goal, I don't know but like but just just that funnel growth alone should sell more Builder Methods Pro memberships and and I'm into that, that's the goal.
Brian Casel:Okay. Also there's gonna be renewals which will start in September 2026. Know, these are annual subscriptions so I It's a membership business model so that is notorious for a higher churn than something like SaaS but with a growing funnel that that's fine. Right? But that also puts pressure on like I gotta keep adding value and stuff like that.
Brian Casel:So that's gonna naturally happen. I am gonna start to I get inquiries about sponsorships all the time so that that'll be a layer of of revenue that will that will come in probably in q one. But I am starting to feel like I need to diversify the top of the funnel because right now, literally the only way people discover builder methods is through specifically through my YouTube channel. Like I don't even post my videos to Twitter or any like, you know, it's just like people only know me as a YouTuber and I can't help but think that there's a whole world of this demand that we were talking about that are just not you Not in the Youtube audience. Right?
Brian Casel:Like, so I should I'm not even doing anything right now when it comes to repurposing my videos turning them into like SEO blog posts like written content Or short form. What's it about on LinkedIn or or You know, I I I do a little bit of short form but it's all on YouTube. I'm not doing TikTok, like I'm not doing Instagram. I I should be figuring that those processes out.
Jordan Gal:Sure.
Brian Casel:And I mean, I'm also thinking about getting into ads as well. Building out like an ads funnel to you know like because I have a ton of content, I have a funnel that's working. I should be able to just get in front of more people who interested in ChatGPT and Cloud Code and know Right.
Jordan Gal:If you can make a paid funnel work, it's magic. It's magic.
Brian Casel:And it's, I mean it's, you know, the thing is like super profitable right now. So I have some cash to experiment with. So like there, I I don't wanna get like too you know, distracted with the because I do have a funnel that's working and it and it requires a lot of creative energy but you know, that I I am thinking about like how do I diversify the top of the funnel. In terms of like the product, the main thing probably won't change. Builder Methods Pro, I expect I'll continue to build out little little tools and things, but those are gonna be sort of periphery.
Brian Casel:Because those are more like, I I build tools all the time now. I could build a whole tool in in like a week that's like, it turns into content for the members. Yep. A tool that helps me optimize my my internal operations. But Agent OS and Design OS are free open source tools.
Brian Casel:But I am talking to a lot of the users of those and seeing a pretty clear path to like a cloud service version of those. Okay. That's something that I think might come into play in 2026. Not like a premium hosted version of the same product but more of like a cloud add on. So like if you're There's a lot of teams who use Agent OS but they need to share their specs with their marketing team or their product team and get it out of the code base.
Brian Casel:And like Design OS is about creating these designs for your new product, you need to share it with your team or with your clients, with your stakeholders.
Jordan Gal:Okay. So there's nothing like
Brian Casel:a cloud component to these open source tools might be an interesting side play. But the the main thing is like keep the funnel going, keep my keep my creative energy flowing and keep building stuff. That's that's kind of the plan.
Jordan Gal:Cool. Yeah. Going in, I thought your your big question for 2026 could basically be narrowed down to do more of the same or do different stuff. And it sounds like it's not it's not that simple actually. I I wanted to hate on you even saying anything bad about YouTube but you're right that Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Right. It's still the anchor but there's more to do around it.
Brian Casel:It's more like how do I leverage what I'm already doing on YouTube more. Right? Like I'm I'm I'm definitely gonna continue the the primary content and thought pieces that I create. They always come out as a YouTube video first. That's gonna But why am I not taking that I literally write script word for word.
Brian Casel:Essentially an article. Like I should be publishing that to LinkedIn. I should be Yeah. That should be getting SEO
Jordan Gal:And the short the short form video platforms are the top of the funnel in terms of attention. So Instagram and TikTok. YouTube shorts
Brian Casel:and they some of them perform kinda well. Longs perform much better in terms of getting people onto my email list.
Jordan Gal:Sure. But how do they find that is is the Yeah. Yeah. The general thinking But is
Brian Casel:How do they find that and that that's like the algorithm, but that's also where I feel a little bit of stress where it's like every week is this gonna be a hit or is this gonna be a miss and that that's gonna directly impact my funnel. So it would be nice if like I know I'm always gonna have hits and misses but I also have SEO, but I also have LinkedIn, but
Jordan Gal:I also have And a system to to push it out. That's right. It just increases the likelihood of it being a hit.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Very cool.
Brian Casel:Fun stuff, man.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Oh yeah. I I also bought
Brian Casel:I think we'll see you back on this in six months.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. I bought Powerball tickets because it's a billion dollars. Okay. I know the don't don't hate me. So but if I win, no no more podcast bro.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Okay. Nice. Nice.
Jordan Gal:Cool. Well, jumping I'm into the last all hands stand up of the year for our team. Cool. Then we're off. Really great to catch up with you.
Jordan Gal:Great to
Brian Casel:see you. Yeah. You too, buddy. Happy happy new year to everyone. Happy and and healthy one.
Brian Casel:And That's right. It's Hanukkah Merry '26.
Jordan Gal:That's right. Let's get it. Happy New Year.
Brian Casel:Later, folks.
