[45] To Build An Audience Or...
This is Bootstrap Web episode 45. It's the podcast for you, the founder who learns by doing as you bootstrap your business online. Today, we're talking all about audience building and the why and the how and the and the what and yes. Getting into all of it.
Speaker 2:I am Brian. And I am Jordan. Let's do
Speaker 1:it, Jordan. So how about some updates?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Before we before we get going, you know, why don't I lead off the update, then I'm sure everyone wants to hear about you. You are currently mid launch, so very exciting. So Yeah. What's my end, remember how I talked about clearing my plate, and being able to focus?
Speaker 2:Maybe that was a month ago. It's it's finally happening. So my my plate is finally being being cleared, which feels amazing, and it's incredible how much progress you can make when you start to focus. First thing to do is stop freaking traveling with your family every week so you can be productive. That's good.
Speaker 2:But then once you start to focus That's tactics number
Speaker 1:one right there.
Speaker 2:Number one, strategy number one, stay freaking put. Get off the plane. But the it's not just like going through the to do list, like, I'm getting things done. It's that my brain is like marinating on one topic. And then, you know, every time I take the dogs for a walk, have I have more creative thoughts about, oh, what about this thing I thought about a few months ago?
Speaker 2:Maybe I should pursue that or maybe I should do things a certain way. So as you just kinda soak yourself into a more, you know, a topic that's that you just keep thinking about all day every day, you really start to explore, do things, become creative. So that's that's kinda been great. More practically speaking, Cardhook is picking up momentum. I've got more free trials right now than I ever have, and my, you know, my world record setting, like 95% conversion rate of free trial to paid, is still in effect.
Speaker 2:I think Nice. You know, almost all of them will convert.
Speaker 1:So What that'll bring the oh, sorry. What what like, what was the biggest driver in in boosting your free trials?
Speaker 2:Mixergy interview. Yep.
Speaker 1:Very
Speaker 2:cool. Two things. Mixergy interview, turns out there are a decent number of e commerce people listening to Mixergy, and that brought out people that were interested and wanted to work together. And yeah, so that's been that was a big driver. The other driver is that that partnership I talked about, with that custom ecommerce platform.
Speaker 2:And we basically went through the trouble of building an integration with them, and we're the only ones that did that. And so they were very happy introduce us to their client base. So that has worked out fantastically. Just kind of, you know, goes to show you to just be open to opportunities like that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Normally normally, you would think, no, it doesn't make sense. They only have, you know, 200 clients. Like, what's the point? But because they only have 200 clients, nobody else is building software for them. So now that we work with them, they love us and they introduce us to their client base and yeah, that's been a huge win.
Speaker 1:Very nice.
Speaker 2:On the negative side, it's still really hard to find a developer to build new integrations, but I've got a few prospects out there, and I believe one of them will work out. And the last piece of the update is really as I'm doing all this work for CardHook, I've really been thinking a lot about what the next move is on the info product and consulting side, and I think that leads very much into what we're talking about today. So let's hold off on that side, but let's get an update from the man in mid launch. He's got a beard. He's tired.
Speaker 2:He's overworked. But but but but how are things going?
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, going going really well. We're about two days into this launch of, of of the product ties course and and workshop. And, you know, I I am very happy with with the response so far. And I'm frankly just really relieved.
Speaker 1:I mean, mainly, you know, I think everyone goes through this as they in the in the final days leading up to the launch. Like, you know, I was I was up late, like, just thinking nobody's gonna gonna gonna pay money for this and, like, it's it's not as good you know, just working on it, and, like, it's not as good as I'm hoping it would be. And but
Speaker 2:All the doubts that creep
Speaker 1:in All those all the self doubt that it's always there. You know? I was, like, literally convinced that it would it would be a total flop.
Speaker 2:It would be zero.
Speaker 1:Thankfully. Just crickets. Yeah. So so, thankfully, that is definitely not the case. And I I promise I will share all the details and the numbers and everything in an upcoming episode.
Speaker 1:We'll we'll plan to do that in November after this kind of initial period calms down. But it has Yeah. We'll do it. Been I you know, I've been pretty blown away with the first twenty four hours, and and it's it's it's really going well. So I'll give you a couple of quick updates about it so far.
Speaker 1:We actually had the very first sale. I mean, we I I had the the first sale, actually, a couple of minutes before I even announced that it was open. You know, like, on the website, I I updated the site maybe fifteen or twenty minutes before I sent out the email. And
Speaker 2:Somebody was just sitting there hitting refresh overnight.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I don't know. Someone, you know, someone someone made that purchase, like, at, like, 09:55AM. And we have a a a good number of customers now inside the course, and I'm really excited about that because probably later tonight or tomorrow, I'm I'm gonna actually open up the community for for all the students and myself to start interacting. And I was going back and forth different ways to do that, but I think I'm gonna go with a a private Facebook group.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that's the right way to go. I usually look at that as, like, a BS add on. I'm gonna say bullshit. Think the Bootstrap with Kids guys have really inspired me to curse around and be myself.
Speaker 2:So they're they're pushing the edge over there, which I appreciate. Totally. Shit. Shit. So usually, the the private Facebook group thing, I think, is kinda, you know, not that valuable.
Speaker 2:But when I look back, I look at my Facebook page right now, even the courses that I didn't really like that I bought that had a private Facebook component, that's hugely valuable. I go to those Facebook groups for a lot. Questions, looking for developers Yeah. For advice. Does anybody use this software?
Speaker 2:Can somebody help me out? So it's really valuable, and it's nice that you have a decent number of people that are gonna be in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I mean, I'm I'm really excited about that piece. Yes. It can kinda come off as like, oh, it's just a kind of kind of a bullshit add on. But, no.
Speaker 1:I I I'm actually really excited about it. I think it's one of the most things I'm most excited about for this course is to have this this very private community, you know, only, you know, the people who are who are in the course will will get access to it. And, yeah, I went back and forth on a few different things. Like, I I I thought I was gonna do, you know, like, one of those, like, hosted forums, like like you see on, like, the the Bootstrap forum and and stuff. Right.
Speaker 1:You you know, or maybe, like, a private Google plus Hangout, but or community, whatever they call it, landed on the on the Facebook page. And I was hesitant because, like, I kinda hate Facebook. I I don't, you know, I I don't really go on there too much, but but I like it because mainly my goal is to just make sure that it's in a place where people will actually see the updates
Speaker 2:and Right. It's own Slack interact. And, you know Right. It's own login. It's not gonna be used as much as Facebook.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. Like, you're already on Facebook checking out your friend's baby pictures, like, at least Right. At least we'll put you to the forum from there.
Speaker 2:Now I go to Facebook for those groups.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's it's a good easy place to have them all in one place. And there's something about the fact that everybody in there has paid and that there aren't, you know, thousands of people in there, that it's small, that people are really willing to share.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. I mean, I see it as kind of like a yes. You can, like, ask questions about the specific lessons and and whatnot, but, really, it's more about, like, posting what you're up to, accountability. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, helping each other, like, make progress. You know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm in a consulting private Facebook group. And as soon as I pivoted from general consulting to that to more productized service in in the sales funnel service, I started giving away all of my material that I had built up for general consulting, like my proposal template and my phone call template and all this other stuff, and people, like, freaked out. They were so grateful, and that that was actually part of what led into some of those people purchasing my course, because I had shown them that I was kinda willing to give the goods.
Speaker 2:So it's I think it's a it's I think it'll be cool, and then a few months from today, it'll really be something really interesting that that'll be open to them.
Speaker 1:Very nice. And so, you know, a couple people have been asking about the Productize workshop, which is planned for November. That's the the workshop package called called Productize Live. That is still available. You know, I'm only selling a a handful of spots to that, but there are a few still available.
Speaker 1:And a few people have been asking some questions about, like, what exactly is involved there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. What's what's the difference?
Speaker 1:So, I mean, you know, really, the way that I'm envisioning this workshop is I am breaking it down into smaller groups. So it's only gonna be about five in in a single call, and it's gonna be very interactive. So together, like, a in a group of five and and myself, it'll be kinda hammering through personalized feedback and strategy on on each of the attendees' product types businesses. And and that kinda will some people have been calling it kind of like a like a small mastermind group call, and that's a pretty good way to describe it. You know?
Speaker 1:I I think
Speaker 2:Private coaching.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Private coaching, but also as a group. Like, you also get the benefit of hearing about a couple of other fellow students' businesses, and and we're all kind of, like, launching or growing together. You know? It's not really just for launching a a service.
Speaker 1:It's also for, like, systemizing and automating and and marketing and and all that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I like those environments.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Totally.
Speaker 2:Everyone, you know, gets fired from everybody else. You get your competitive juices going. You, you know, you feel for it doesn't feel like, oh, let me steal stuff from this guy. It's like, hey, you're a buddy. We we we talk on this, you know, once a week or once every two weeks.
Speaker 2:Like, give me what you're doing. I'll give you what I'm what I'm working on.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Totally. And so this this episode will be, going live sometime in October or, you know, actually, probably today or tomorrow. So, the, you know, the $100 off initial launch sale is still in effect right now. That'll be going on through Halloween through October 31.
Speaker 1:And and yeah. So that's that's out there. Definitely, like, in the in the midst of the of the launch excitement. But at the same time, man, I am just relieved that this thing is launched, and I'm basically finished, you know, producing all the content. I was actually here in my office until five in the morning on on the morning of the launch, you know, finishing up some of the final audio recordings and the edits and getting everything uploaded to the server and, like, yeah, I was
Speaker 2:Is it done? Is is the product done?
Speaker 1:Yeah. All the content is there.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's that's awesome. When I sold my course, I was relieved and then I got stressed because I had to actually build it. At least now, you know, you've done both. You've it didn't launch the crickets, people bought, and the product is done. So that's that's nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. So I'm I'm definitely very relieved. I'm I told myself I would take a couple of days off right now, but here I am in the office on a podcast with you. So
Speaker 2:Yep. I'm keeping you up late because I'm on the on the West Coast. Sorry.
Speaker 1:No. But Alright.
Speaker 2:So we're Yeah. We're gonna give you we're gonna give you a beta congratulations before before the real thing when when it's over, and we'll all look forward to the, the diagnosis, the autopsy episode on on the launch, and what went well, and what you'll do, differently next time.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I look forward to that because I I did spend a lot of time, and and you and me have have kinda talked through this quite a bit, is like the sequence, Like, the launch sequence, what what we did beforehand, and what it did after launch, and everything. So we'll we'll get into, like, step by step what what went down. We'll do that, you know, in a couple weeks in November. So let's let's talk about a few iTunes reviews before we before we get into the meat of today's episode.
Speaker 1:I just checked iTunes. We we actually had a couple of new reviews, but I'll I just wanna highlight one five star from Anthony Franco. He said, Brian and Jordan share very insightful info on how to create a prop a profitable business. None of the fluff like you see on other business podcasts. Just brave, honesty, actionable strategies.
Speaker 1:I only wish I heard about them earlier. You hear that, Jordan?
Speaker 2:We're
Speaker 1:There you go. We're brave, honest fellows over here.
Speaker 2:We're we're in the the no fluff zone.
Speaker 1:That's
Speaker 2:right. I like it. Well, thank you, Anthony. Yeah. Appreciate it.
Speaker 2:And and I had a really interesting conversation with a buddy of mine, Elliot. He's bootstrapping SaaS for the title industry, but as he went along prospecting and selling, he just noticed another opportunity, and he's now in very much a similar model to Restaurant Engine. A productized service that's almost it's like it's this hybrid SaaS service thing, but he's doing something very similar for his clients. He's off to a really nice start. He's got a solid monthly recurring revenue after, you know, just a few weeks.
Speaker 2:I don't even think they have, like, a website. It's just, okay, here, do you wanna buy this SaaS? And a lot of a lot of the prospects were like, sure, but what about this other thing? And he he said on in my phone conversation with him, he said, the the episode that you guys did on doing things manually, like, saved me so much trouble and convinced me that I just didn't have to build all this automated stuff, that I should just say, yes, I will solve that problem for you. Totally.
Speaker 2:So that was a very, very high and appreciated compliment, that we, you know, helped him move faster and helped him avoid making the mistake of building too much too early. And that's pretty much as good as we can do on, on this podcast.
Speaker 1:Totally, man. And and that is what I love so much about these these productized services. Like, you know, I hate to keep talking about it, but it it keeps coming up. Like, you know, some of these case study interviews that that I did, I mean, they launched it in a day or or, you know, one guy launched it in a weekend and, you know, paying customers within a week. And and, you know, the other the other interesting trend here, and it sounds like this was the case for Elliot, and I I plan to write an article about this maybe next week.
Speaker 1:You see a lot of these SaaS or, like, an existing software product that in of of itself is a product, but then then the owner like, the founder will add some kind of productized manual service on top of it, like a done for you value add and Mhmm. Kind of a concierge service, you know. But that's typically something like like free just to get you on board. But, you know, we're also seeing, like, pay for this extra value added manual service.
Speaker 2:Right. The the landing page in a day comes to mind.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Right? Like some guy some guy builds software for landing pages. Cool. Then people come to him and say, hey, I'd like your service but can you just build me a landing
Speaker 1:page? Yeah.
Speaker 2:And he says, sure. For this added amount of money, I'll build you a landing page with this feature and that feature and that feature, and it'll cost this much, and
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:He's using his own he's using his own service, excuse me, his own software to provide the service.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's that's Jared Drysdale. You know, he Yeah. Beautiful. He's a landing page in a day service.
Speaker 1:He literally launched his that service in a day, and then he had, like, seven paying customers. And that was, like, the case for me too. You know, I I launched Restaurant Engine as a SaaS. I thought it would be totally hands off, you know, do it yourself. And over that first year, it it completely evolved into we do all the work for you.
Speaker 1:And it's and then we productize that and systemize that and and and, you know, that's the whole story.
Speaker 2:Now now I do think the more common path to a productized service is through the pain of a general service. Yes. If you if you offer anything more general than than I mean, anything. I wasn't doing work that that that was that crazy. It's just like websites and sales funnel stuff.
Speaker 2:But the second you get away from something that's repeatable, you you start hating your clients and you start losing your mind because, I don't know, there's no system to it. There's no procedure to it. There's no it's Yeah. Very predictable. So I think that's really why this stuff keeps coming up because people who provide services online, they're usually not charging enough, Right?
Speaker 2:This I have the same problem. And it usually becomes pretty painful pretty quickly. And you start to look around for a solution to it, and and that that productized service, path looks like the right solution because you're not, let me scrap my entire business and put it all my chips on a product and hope it works, but let me at least get off of this painful spot that I'm sitting on right now that is just this general service that I'm just like a slave to an hourly rate.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. And and, like, the thing that I like, the way that I've I've written about it earlier is when you're when you're doing, like, typical freelancing or consulting and you're and you're working with all these different types of clients, different types of projects, you're doing everything, you're doing it all, you're reinventing what you sell every single time. Every single time you talk to a new prospect, you have to get into a couple of meetings with them and and figure out, okay, what do they need? What do they really care about?
Speaker 1:Now how do now how can I write this long proposal to to be the right value proposition? And then next week, you talk to someone else and you gotta do that all over again. You're you're reinventing what you do every single time.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's so much easier to say, alright. So we've done this stage. Next up is this thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's it's so much easier when you just like, look, this is what we do. These types of people find it really valuable. If you're if you're just like them, then we can do it for you as well. And and then and then it's just a matter of, like, finding more of you, finding more of that ideal customer.
Speaker 2:Right. And and the fulfillment is easier, which is what's starting to become more attractive to me, because the marketing is one thing. Like, okay, cool. I wanna make sure I can sell something. But the fulfillment is what makes or breaks, you know, the the type of business you have.
Speaker 2:If you have to do everything, then it sucks to fulfill.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Totally. But we're, we're getting off on a tangent. If you wanna get more about productized services, go to the previous episode 44. That was all about productized services and and, my interview with, with Nick DeSabato.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, you guys definitely wanna check that out. But let's head into this week's episode.
Speaker 2:Alright. We're coming back. What are we talking about today? We're talking about audiences. This is something that we that comes up often.
Speaker 2:So what does it mean to build an audience? Why do it? How do you make money from it? How to go about doing it the right way? So I'm excited to get into this Oh.
Speaker 2:With someone like yourself, Brian, who has an audience, who's been doing this kind of work. And, you know, I'm almost on the other side of it, so I think people in the audience will identify with both of our situations. You have an audience. You just launched a product to an existing audience. I'm at the very early stages of that and trying to decide the right way to go about it from from here.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So what so, you know, we were talking about this earlier. Like, what prompted you to to bring this up as, like, today's topic? Like, what what's kind of the big question in your mind right now?
Speaker 2:Okay. So I think my my general take on business on the web is that an audience is something nice, but I also see so many people doing it just because other people are doing it. So I I always want whatever I'm selling online to be able to stand on its own and not require an audience, which is just a a base of people that already know you or your product before selling it. I would much rather have something online that I could spend $5 a click on and have a conversion rate of 2% and, you know, a price of $500. And for every $100 of ad spend, I get 20 clicks and that's I I want those numbers to be there as opposed to this murky, like, I have 5,000 people on my email list, and I launch something every three months, and I right.
Speaker 2:It that sounds less scientific to me. It sounds like uncertain. And over the past few months, that skepticism has slowly been eroded as I've come across people like yourself and like our friend Brennan. And, you know, I think a few years ago, it was really exceptional to make a living off of an audience. And nowadays, we see examples that are that's that they seem less exceptional.
Speaker 2:You know, it seems more common and more doable. You've got the John Lee Dumas' making 250 k a month on a podcast. You've got the wild man Tim Sykes making $5,000,000 on, you know, on penny stock info info products. You've got Brennan, people that we know, friends of ours. So that skepticism has been eroded over time.
Speaker 2:And then you combine that with basically, my experience over the past, like, thirty days has been very interesting and enlightening. Right? So we started doing this podcast together. I did a few interviews. I did that mixergy interview.
Speaker 2:And all of a sudden, I get emails from people. I get asked to coffee. I get asked for advice. Mhmm. I get asked to join meetings.
Speaker 2:People email me and say, thanks so much for the honesty on the Mixergy thing, and I really appreciate it, the value. I really hope to provide value to the SaaS community the way you do. I'm like, wait a minute. I don't really do anything. What are you talking about?
Speaker 2:So you can start to
Speaker 1:But you're out there. You're, you know, the people connect with you, you know?
Speaker 2:Right. And and so what that feels like to me, a, it feels good. Sure, my ego gets stroke. That's great. But my bank account doesn't care about my ego.
Speaker 2:What it does feel like is it feels like an opportunity. And it feels like, hey, if I had a few thousand people that knew me and I wanted to sell something, it sounds like it would be pretty easy to sell something to people that know you and like you. And so now I'm coming to someone like yourself and saying, Brian, you know, what's the right way to go about this? Okay. Fine.
Speaker 2:If I'm a convert, if I'm buying in, how do you do this?
Speaker 1:Well, you know, before we we do have some some tactics and strategies that we'll we'll hash out in a minute. But, just to that question of, like, why? Why why invest in in such an effort of building an audience, creating content, putting yourself out there? I I really believe that marketing online today, no matter how you wanna do it, really centers around education. You're you've gotta educate your audience and and build credibility that way.
Speaker 1:So even if you want to go the PPC paid acquisition route, that is still centered around educating. You know, you and I both know that an ad pointing to a free educational resource, which later asks for a sale, will generally have a higher conversion rate than an ad pointing straight to a cold sales page asking asking you to buy. Agreed. You know? So so that in itself, of course, that's one form of doing content, like, you know, creating some kind of free resource, like a webinar or or or an email course or book or something like that.
Speaker 1:But just in general, like, it's it's about building credibility, and the way that you do that is by educating because education is is the ultimate form of value, really, because people are go online to seek answers to their questions. And if you can give the definitive answers to the most burning questions on the minds of the people that happen to be most relevant for you Mhmm. Then that's when it all comes together. That's that's when everything gets easier. You know?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And and you inject your personality into it, and people start to identify. Right? This Yeah. It almost feels like there there are, like, these tribes out there, right, that I'm like part of the James Wedmore tribe and the Nathan Barry tribe. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Right? So people have like these followings. Yeah. Sounds very powerful, but it also, when you don't have that, it's it's it's very elusive. Like, how how do you do that?
Speaker 2:I think my my personal conclusion, I wanna hear your take on it. It's really just more stuff, just more things that are out there in the public domain that are relevant. And I almost feel like there's a natural process of improvement. Like, you will get better at it over time. So whatever hesitation I have that I won't be able to produce amazing content right now is really misplaced.
Speaker 2:It's it's really just get started. Yeah. But I do I do see an element of of of quantity, out there. I see someone like like Brennan. You know, if I if I break down Brennan's business to, like, its bare bones
Speaker 1:Brennan Dunn, w Freelance and Raid, you know. Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's it's a product to sell and then a bunch of education and then how to get as many people into that education as possible. Right? It's like, it's that simple. And I really think Brennan produces a lot of stuff and it's high quality.
Speaker 2:And then you can optimize after that. Right? Like, Brennan's in the optimization phase. Like, what do I present to this person at this point in time? What makes the most sense?
Speaker 2:Which ad? Which retargeting banner? But if you break it down into its general parts, it's just what are you gonna sell? And then what are you gonna educate with? What content can you put out there consistently in a lot of, and and the quality increasing, and then how do you get people there?
Speaker 1:Yeah. But I mean, you know, you look at you look at Brennan, really what he's doing is all education. I mean, aside from his application plan scope. But the main you know, his his books and his courses and his workshops are education, but really all of that starts with loads and loads of free education. His blog posts, his his weekly newsletter, and his email courses, you know, that's that's what it is.
Speaker 1:He educates. He's a teacher. Same with Nathan Barry. Same with Valuable. You know.
Speaker 1:Right. Valuable. Who is in the business of selling educational products, info information products, you know, you're in the business of educating. And it's, you know, it's interesting to hear you say, like, doing more, like and there's more stuff. Right?
Speaker 1:And I kinda Yeah.
Speaker 2:The quantity.
Speaker 1:I think lately, I I I'm thinking of it more a little, like, opposite. Like, I I feel like it's simpler now. I I feel like I've I'm starting to gain a clarity on how simple this really is, like, because I used to think it was much more complex than it really is. I used to think it was all about being everywhere, publishing everywhere. Like, you gotta have a YouTube channel.
Speaker 1:You gotta have Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Google Plus. You gotta have you gotta be blogging. You gotta do guest blogging. You gotta do speaking. You gotta do everything.
Speaker 2:Right. That's part of the overwhelm that that sounds like, you know, that sounds like too much. It's it's intimidating.
Speaker 1:So But what I'm learning
Speaker 2:is that it's
Speaker 1:not it's not so much about the optimization of keywords. It's not so much about being on every single channel in every corner of the Internet. It's it's really about focus and focusing in on who you're speaking to, who's the person reading it on the other end. And then once you really know who that person is and you empathize with them and you and you feel literally feel their pain of, like, what are they struggling with? What sucks about their day right now?
Speaker 1:And what do they wish their day could look like a year from now? You you know how you know that you know what they need to learn that they haven't learned yet because you were there a couple of years ago. You're just a couple of years ahead. So it's about sharing your knowledge and helping them get ahead. And once you kinda take it from that angle I know this is kinda wishy washy at this point, but it's but once you take it from that angle, it's it's like it things start to resonate and and connect.
Speaker 2:Okay. Okay. So let's write the the logical next question to that is, how do you know who your audience is? Who do you right. How do you know who you want your audience to be?
Speaker 2:And then how do you know what to write or create for them that would actually help them? Is it something that you really should look at your own situation, your own business, your own day to day experience? Is is that the right well of information to to go after?
Speaker 1:Okay. So I I wanna make one distinction here. There is Mhmm. Building an audience like your personal audience, like you or me, and there's that. And then there's building, like, a specific audience for a specific business.
Speaker 1:So in my case, I look at this as I build my personal audience, and and I do that through my through my email newsletter on CastJam, my blogging on CastJam, and I do that through this podcast. That's one audience. That's that's my personal thing. And and I look at this as, like, this is, like, forever. This is my forever audience.
Speaker 1:I'm always gonna be doing this no matter which businesses I'm working on. This will be year in, year out. This is what I do. And then and then and then I've I'm working on Restaurant Engine. That's my business right now.
Speaker 1:That's, you know, for the past couple years and and for the next couple years. That restaurant engine has its own email list, its own audience, very niche vertical, all about restaurant owners, food truck owners, that stuff. And that that's a different thing. That's doing we we kind of do more of, a system systematic content marketing where it's not so much around my personal brand. Although, I do have, like, videos and courses that it's me teaching you and it's automated.
Speaker 1:But so there's, like, a distinction there, I guess. So so then so then the question is, like,
Speaker 2:how see this?
Speaker 1:Like, it since since
Speaker 2:I was distinction?
Speaker 1:Well, the okay. So the the distinction is Restaurant Engine, the product, I knew that we had to write you asked, like, what to write about, what what to create content about. It obviously has to be content that is attractive to a restaurant owner. So that ideation is about
Speaker 2:What are their problems?
Speaker 1:What what are their problems? What are their questions? How can we answer them? And then how can we connect that to our product inside the product? So so that's
Speaker 2:the So the
Speaker 1:Like, that's that. But then my personal stuff has has always been just more organic, mainly about, like, what I was interested in and also, like, the people that I'm interested in speaking to. And so, like, early on when I started blogging, which was back in o eight, and that was around the time I first became freelance. I wrote a lot about freelancing. I wrote a lot about how to get clients as a freelancer, how to work with clients as a freelancer that I wrote about that stuff for years.
Speaker 1:And then more recently in this podcast and and on my blog now, I write more about how to level up and move to to products and productizing and and because that's what I'm into. And and bootstrapping. And and I go to a place like MicroConf, and and I walk into the room, and it's like, these are my people. I you know, these these are the people that I want to be talking to all the time and and meeting up with and and and teaching. Because they're I'm a I'm a couple of years ahead of some people, and there are plenty of people that are a couple of years ahead of me that I learn from every day, you know, and that's that's how you take it.
Speaker 1:It's like you, you know, a lot of people kinda get intimidated when it comes to blogging and teaching because it's like, well, what do I have to teach? I I don't have any credibility. I haven't done anything big. Well, chances are you you do have way more credibility than you think you do. You don't have to be the world's most successful, most expert authoritative figure.
Speaker 1:You just have to you just have to write and teach about something that you learned the hard way over the past year because there's somebody who's a year behind you.
Speaker 2:I heard you say a few times, I'm a few years ahead. I I think being a few weeks ahead is enough.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Like, if, yeah, if I just went through the process, right, a few days ago, I went through the process of connecting Leadpages with GetDrip and it was not straightforward and it was not, you know, it wasn't perfect. It was challenging. If I wrote a blog post about that, that's something that people are dealing with, like right now over the past few weeks. And over the next few months, a lot more people are gonna be dealing with it. And that that would be enough to be expert because I I went through it.
Speaker 2:So I I definitely wanna add that in terms of the intimidation factor. Totally. I understand the distinction between the two types of audiences, but I have I have trouble reconciling the idea that they're that that they're that different. I I know what you mean by building an audience for my own personal brand is forever. And regardless of what business I'm in, what business I sell, or what business I, you know, quit, I'll always have this thing, this asset, this sense of joy and opportunity.
Speaker 2:But maybe, you know, maybe I just don't think the same way. I, right now, when I'm thinking to myself, okay, jordangall.com is just sitting there, it's got two blog posts, I've got, you know, a few things set up there. If I wanna start going after it, I almost I almost need to know what the point is. I know it's not smart to to absolutely have one product in mind and and only be selling that product. I know it it's better off to be a little more patient than that.
Speaker 2:But I I really I I think I end up seeing it very much the same way. Right? You see restaurant engine as a detached audience build. Content gets published. People come consume the content.
Speaker 2:They jump onto the email list. And then through the email list, you expose them to an offer. And then if they don't take the offer, you continue providing content and then expose them to offers later on until they take the offer or don't. Mhmm. I I can't help but want to approach, you know, personal audience building in in the same way so that there's a point.
Speaker 2:Okay. Jordangallo.com is is not like a vanity thing. It's it's a business. Wanna make, you know, I wanna make $500,000 of it from it in 2015. How do I go about doing that?
Speaker 1:Yeah. But you're selling on there, you're selling an info product that's you teaching your your method of doing sales funnels. And Right. So it has to be about you. Right?
Speaker 1:I mean well, no. Let let me take that back. It doesn't necessarily have to be any info product doesn't necessarily have to be I'm teaching my method. Like, in in my in my course productize, yes, I talk a lot about my example from restaurant engine, but I also draw most of it from the research I did with 11 other people who who run different types of productize consulting. So it's it's drawing from research of what others are doing.
Speaker 1:But it's still you as the teacher. You're the one communicating this and and packaging it in a way that's easy to consume and easy to follow and take action on. That's really the value of any kind of education. And that's that's why you see a lot of the there can be five different courses from five different people all teaching the same thing about about sales funnels. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But but a certain portion of them will connect with you and the way that you teach it much more than they would connect with someone else. And I I just think about the times that I learned something, like, I've heard something, like, five different times from five different people, but it never actually made an impact for me until I heard it from the fifth person. You know?
Speaker 2:Right. Yeah. I've I've recently interacted with somebody who contacted me after the Mixergy interview and and through the podcast, and they're they're a poker expert. Right? So they've they've done well with professional online poker.
Speaker 2:And and their take on their next move was, I wanna get away from poker because it's saturated and I wanna move into another field. And I couldn't help but think, you know, why would you run away from your expertise? And, you know, nothing is really that saturated. If you inject personality
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Some people will connect with you and your method and your style and your, you know, I mean, right, it's on my mind. Tim Tim Sykes, have you watched the Mixergy course with with Timothy Sykes?
Speaker 1:I think so.
Speaker 2:It is it's a it's a beautiful thing. He's so over the top that you don't forget him, and and that's that's part of his thing in in not being forgettable. Look, there are plenty of other people out there that teach you how to make money on penny stocks, you will not forget you won't forget this man once once you listen to him for ten minutes. So it's interesting. Okay.
Speaker 2:So look. Not an easy topic. What to write about and how and why and all these different issues, but let's go under the assumption that someone has decided to go about this. They see other people doing it. They see success around them and they say themselves, okay, I want to build an audience.
Speaker 2:I want my own blog. I want to start to create this personal brand. I think that's that's something valuable that has good opportunity. One of the biggest things, that you and I have talked about is is email. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And and where email fits in to the whole equation. Oh, man. I wanna why don't you talk a little bit about about your experience with it and and, you know, what you would recommend now?
Speaker 1:I try to tell people this, like, again and again. People, like, email me. They said, I'm not getting traction. I'm not getting people to read my blog. I'm not getting people to come back and grow that traffic.
Speaker 1:Build your email list. Start your email list if you haven't already. You, Jordan, you have a huge leg up as you're getting started, you know, kind of now building your audience, and that you already know the power of of having an email list. And you know the mechanics of of how this stuff works with offering something of value like a you know, I hate these terms, but, like, lead magnet to get people to to subscribe and and things like that. But, anyway, the power of the email list, it's it gets people to return.
Speaker 1:Like I said, I started blogging in 2008. I didn't actually start my newsletter until 2013. What a mistake. I, you know, I I did a presentation in sometime in the 2013. I showed a graph of my traffic from 2008 to the end of to, like, '13, and it was flatlined at, like, 20 people a day, 25 people, maybe 50 people a week.
Speaker 1:You know? For for years, I was writing into a vacuum. I was my blog was basically just I I just kinda did it for the fun of it, and there were months at a time when I just didn't blog because nobody was reading it. I didn't see the point. I was like, screw it.
Speaker 1:In '13, as I start to, you know, learn about building an audience and and and you see guys who start to have success with this stuff, one thing becomes clear, everybody has an email list. And the and the and the guys that I follow, the guys that I tune into, guess what? I'm subscribed to their email list. So Same here. So, you know, that's that's email is the most reliable way to convert a first time visitor into somebody who's coming back for a second visit and then beyond.
Speaker 1:Because if you think about it, you're googling for an answer or you come across a link on Twitter or someone mentions something to you, you check out the site for the first time. If you don't enter your email on their email list, chances are you're never gonna return to that site even if you liked it, even if you got value out of that article. If they're not getting you to subscribe to their email list, you know, what? You you might follow them on Twitter and then maybe you might catch another one of their articles come across your Twitter stream again in the future. You know Right.
Speaker 1:RSS. I mean, yeah, like, so I actually still use RSS, but I'm one of the very few who still uses RSS. You know?
Speaker 2:So is it is it safe to say that the the point of of blogging, and content in the early stages is is to build emails? Yes. Like, that that's that that is the metric to look at and not your traffic. Yes. Doesn't matter if you get a thousand people a day, if you're not gaining any email subscribers.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. So the met I don't even So the metric
Speaker 1:Like, I don't look at traffic at all. I don't I don't even remember the last time that I logged into Google Analytics. It's been months.
Speaker 2:So so the metric to track But is But I track how many people on your But I log
Speaker 1:in I log in to drip every single day
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:To look at
Speaker 2:my email. You made the switch fully over to drip?
Speaker 1:I did for for my personal cash jam list. That's completely on drip now. Restaurant engine and and hotel propeller, I plan to move to drip, but I've been too busy. But I that will happen at some point.
Speaker 2:True. So okay. I mean and and, you know, what what goes on in my mind as I hear you talk through that process of getting people to come back, you know, what sticks out in my mind is when you decide to offer something to purchase, that's that's how you're gonna do it. You're gonna make the offer and the warm up and build excitement through email so that, right, instead of expecting people to come back to your blog regularly
Speaker 1:Yeah. The other
Speaker 2:and and hope they come across your post that talks about your new product, you really need to be able to announce it and talk about it and spread it through through your email list.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. But, again, in the in the early days, as you're just trying to get that traction and start growing that email list so that it kinda snowballs and your and your audience grows, it's not so much about your product. And even if you have a product already, that that's great. But in the early days, your very first email subscribers are gonna be your most loyal because you're brand new, but they still but your stuff still resonated to them.
Speaker 1:So if if they're entering their email address, they're the ones who are gonna find your second and third and fourth article and be like, yeah. This this one was awesome too. I'm gonna I'm gonna share this. I'm gonna tweet this. Right.
Speaker 1:You
Speaker 2:know? This is the the the Brian Harris effect. Right? Guy comes out of nowhere creating awesome content, and a bunch of people signed up early, in his in his path, and then all of a sudden, he's he's established because he got so many people to jump on early on and say, hey. This stuff's really, really good.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And and don't be afraid and, like, if you only have 20 people on your email list, I I hear people say, like, oh, it's only 20 people. I'm not gonna email. I'm not even gonna send an email blast. What's the point?
Speaker 1:What's the point? I mean, that's 20 people who found you on the Internet and entered their their email address. You have to send them your stuff and and the because those are the people who are gonna start sharing it. And that's how you start to and I in my presentation, I I did a graph of my traffic from the day I started that email list. It's, like, flat for five years, and then and then it goes up.
Speaker 1:You know? And that's because of the return visitors. That's how you get people to come back the second and third time, and they're loyal and they start sharing and then it starts to snowball. So that's I mean, that that's the email list. The other No.
Speaker 2:I do I do have a problem with the concept of, you know, ignore the product early on. Don't even worry about it. I'm I've got I got advice from someone a few months ago of build an audience and don't even think about offering something for sale for at least twelve months. And, like, that's
Speaker 1:I I miscommunicated that. I I don't I think that it is important to have at least an idea of where you wanna go. I mean, in my case, I didn't have an idea for during those early years of blogging. But at at some point, you know, I knew that I wanted to write about entrepreneurship and bootstrapping and leveling up. And then I started writing more about that, and and I knew that that would eventually turn into some kind of product.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think for me what I like the idea of of having a product in mind, ideally having a product for sale. And as you go about building this email list, as you start blogging, the these people get, they get exposed to that offer. And if they take the offer, great. If they don't take the offer, they stay on your email list.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Right. So that's
Speaker 2:In terms of a my my
Speaker 1:Well, like, in terms of a product to sell in the very early days, I would and maybe I should have done this myself in, you know, like, a year ago, instead of spending all that time writing writing an ebook, which did okay, but it it did okay. Justin Jackson, talks about this, you know, in a few different places, launched something small. And what he did was he just did a paid webinar. Pay I I think it was, like, a $100, a $100,125 bucks, something like that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Some kind of limited number of spots. And that was, like, his first one of his very first small products. Like, just put that on offer, got a couple people to sign up for a Saturday, and and that's that's the first thing. So so you so at that point, like, when you're when you're early on, you don't know exactly what resonates with your audience.
Speaker 1:So you shouldn't invest tons and tons of time. Maybe I I I probably invested too much time, but, like, you know, do something like that. Like, a very small, low priced, low commitment product. And then you and then you get feedback based on that, like, people willing to buy? Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know? Of course, you you can't really do that when you have five subscribers, but you can have that you can do that when you have 300. Why not? Right. You know?
Speaker 1:And and that's not very hard to get to, you know.
Speaker 2:Right. And that's that I think is more more promising. Alright. So let's get into a little bit about, like, okay. You've made the decision.
Speaker 2:You start blocking. You start kinda finding your feet. What right? I I you have personally had some great success with with guest blogging, and and people hear about it. So, you know, I I want wanna hear you talk about what's the right way to do it and, you know, how do how do
Speaker 1:you start? Yeah. I got a lot of questions about this, and I've had questions over the years about this. I've been doing guest blogging forever since since I've been a freelancer, and it's the thing that I always come back to. I I I love it because it's it's such a great way to to get to to get exposure and get yourself out there and and pull brand new people into your audience without having to, like, pay for ads and and things.
Speaker 1:Now, it's not right. It's not easy. It's not the kind of thing that you can just like, oh, there's a button that I'll push and go go get me traffic now. No. It doesn't work that way.
Speaker 1:You have to work up systematically. So here's here is the process because people always ask me, like, oh, how do you how do you get published on Mashable? How do you how do you do you know, how do you get these spots? Like, what like, can can you introduce me to them? And and, like, look, this is this is the process.
Speaker 1:You're brand new. You're writing a little bit on on your own blog. You wanna start guest posting. Step one is start small, but not too small. And I'll kinda, like, run through all this stuff because it's I go much more in-depth, you know, in other in other places.
Speaker 1:But, like, start small but not too small. Right? And what I mean by that is target a site that is not the biggest, you know, most well known publication in the world with, you know, millions and millions of of traffic, but one that's attainable. But it's but they're bigger than you. Obviously, you wanna be targeting sites that are bigger than yours.
Speaker 1:You don't wanna be wasting your time on other blogs that just for the sake of guest posting if they don't have an audience. The other thing you wanna make sure is, like, it's relevant. So, you know, obviously, you don't you don't wanna be posting on on a site that has nothing to do with your target customer or the people that you wanna be speaking to. For me, the very first guest article that I ever wrote was for freelance switch. And, I mean, I was even surprised that I that I got accepted there, but basically, they had a form on their website, like, we're seeking submissions for guest articles.
Speaker 1:Fill out this form and maybe we'll get back to you. So I was like, sure. Why not? I'll I'll fill that out. You know?
Speaker 1:And I filled it out and and I think it took, like, a month or two and they got back to me. Now, of course, Freelance Switch is no longer in existence today. But now Freelance Switch at the time, like, yeah, kind of a high traffic site, but not, like, not huge. Not
Speaker 2:Right. You don't wanna go for Yeah. Right. You don't wanna go for the the Kissmetrics blog right away, but you also don't wanna go for the smallest thing possible.
Speaker 1:And and I was writing for freelancers. I was a freelancer. I had some advice that I knew I could share. So so I I went for that, and they accepted it. I was like I was like, wow.
Speaker 1:It's it's amazing. I'm I'm gonna have an article on freelance switch.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:The other And what about, like So then the topics. Well, okay. So, like, that's, like, kind of step two is, like, you have to pitch something relevant. You can't just say, like, hey. Can I guest post for you?
Speaker 1:Or I'd love to write a guest post for you sometime. Like, you get
Speaker 2:That's that's too much work.
Speaker 1:It's
Speaker 2:You're you're handing off to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And and you're just making it too easy for them to just ignore your email. You have to in your pitch, in that first email, you have to say, you know, I I I'd love to write for your audience. Here is here's a topic that I I think would really work well for your audience. Maybe even pitch, like, two different topics.
Speaker 1:Like, would one of these work? But the big but here is you have to do your research. You have to know exactly who that blog audience is. Go read their last 10 articles and exactly what those titles were and what they wrote about and look at the ones that actually got more shares and comments. Those are the topics that that editor knows is valuable.
Speaker 1:So if you if you offer something, of course, you don't wanna offer the same topic because I've had editors tell me, like, oh, that's a good topic, but we just published something about that last week, so it's not gonna work right now. So you have to Right. Walk that balance between presenting something new, but presenting something that, you know, that their audience will will get value from. You know? So so that takes a little bit of kind of gut feel, a little bit of research.
Speaker 1:So, you know, hopefully, you you pitch something compelling. And the way I do it is, like, here here's a topic. I'll I'll give, like, a potential title and maybe a sentence or two about what this article will would be about. I wait for them to reply, and then they'll either tell me, like, yeah, that sounds like a great fit. Or, you know, what I'll say is, like, here's a topic, here's the pitch.
Speaker 1:If it's a good fit, I can I can send you a draft within two weeks? And then they'll reply and they'll say, yeah. Go ahead and send us the draft. Or sometimes they'll say like, sounds good, but maybe if if it if it goes from this angle instead of that angle, it would be better. And I'll be like, okay.
Speaker 1:Great. I I could work with that.
Speaker 2:Right. But then then you're in. So from there, obviously, it goes without saying that you have to you have to put in it it almost feels like you have to put in better quality work for a guest post than you do for your own post.
Speaker 1:Definitely.
Speaker 2:Right? It has to be like your absolute best stuff. Now, my assumption is it needs to be your best stuff because you wanna pull them into your world. So what's what's the strategy behind that? How do you go from being exposed on somebody else's site to adding them into your universe and ideally onto your email list.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So and, yes, you'd it's it definitely has to be more effort, more time, more thought, and more creativity. You just gotta give it more love when you're when you're writing articles for someone else, for someone else's audience. Look. This is you're you're on a stage.
Speaker 1:People are gonna discover you through this article, and you wanna be invited back to do it again. So you you've it's gotta be awesome. So
Speaker 2:so how do you do it? How do you how do you pull them in?
Speaker 1:Well, the way that that I I've really had more success with this lately rather than the early years of of doing this is it has to be connected. Like, you you'll get a byline with a link. That's typically like the exchange. Some you know, a lot of blogs will will pay writer's fees and and whatnot. You know?
Speaker 1:But, really, I I I would do it for free. It's really just a matter of getting the exposure. The exposure really is your byline and and your this is by your name and and you do you're from this company, but you wanna craft this this byline in a way that adds value and gives them a clear call to action to get something in addition. So so you're writing an article on some topic. Your byline should have a link to a free resource, like a like a free ebook or free email course on that same topic or on, like if you wanna get even more about this, here's, an advanced crash course for free that you can get.
Speaker 1:So that's that's the best way to connect a visitor from that blog. Number one, just to even click the link. It's gotta be something some attractive offer there, like, this free resource. Then once they land on that page, they'll get then then it's if it's relevant, it's, like, kinda, like, along the same lines of what you wrote about in the original article.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:It's a high conversion rate right there. Right.
Speaker 2:So if you're gonna go through the trouble and work to actually write this guest post, then do it go the whole way and Yeah. Offer something for free that's more valuable. So if you're gonna write about how to, you know, write a great proposal as a freelancer, then give a proposal template along with it and make that the offer for them to join your email list.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. But and now I I really wanna highlight, like, kind of the next two steps here because this is this is what everybody asks about. Like, how do you get on the larger sites, the big name stuff? And this is how you do it.
Speaker 1:I said freelance switch was the very first blog that I guess blogged on. I just randomly filled out their form, got in. You can do the same by just cold emailing editors of blogs. Then you have to leverage that to get your next spot. So after freelance switch, I did a few more articles for them, but then I also went out to I think it was, like, freelance folder and then a couple of the design blogs, like Vandalay design blog and, like, a couple of these other ones.
Speaker 1:Right. And you just email them and say, like, hey. You know, I've written a couple of articles for freelance switch, or I've written a couple of articles for this site. Here's some examples, but but here's an article that I'd really like to pitch for your site. Okay.
Speaker 1:So so you start to leverage that.
Speaker 2:The door. You're putting the door somewhere, and then you use that as credibility to pitch the next
Speaker 1:Yeah. That and then so so that, you know, gets you a few more things. And and again, this stuff happens over a number of months and years, so it's not an overnight thing. The the next step is the snowball effect. And this is when a few different things happen.
Speaker 1:Sometimes blog editors will see your guest article on a site, and they'll be like, we want you to come write for us, you know, and they'll invite you to guest blog on their sites. That that definitely starts to happen. And then the other thing is as you do as the years go on doing this, you start to get these, like, random encounters. So, like, the way that I just published my third article on Michael Hyatt's blog, about a year ago, someone tweeted at me mentioning Michael Hyatt and me. Like, someone I think Michael Hyatt put out some question on Twitter, and then someone answered that question saying, like, hey, Michael.
Speaker 1:You need to check out Brian's article on this. And then and then right after that, I kind of, like, jumped on that mention, and I and I was like, I kind of I think I what I did was I I emailed Michael Hyatt after that and offered a guest article, and I tailored some very specific pitch that I knew his audience would would work with. That was one thing that happened and so Mashable, the way that that started. And I've written, like, for the last couple of years, I've written maybe 10 articles for Mashable. A writer was writing for Mashable and they quoted me in their article on Mashable.
Speaker 1:And someone from Mashable with, like, a Mashable email address emailed me, and they're like, can we quote you or can we ask for can can you provide a quote of some freelancing related article? Right? Right. And I did, and and I was like, this is awesome. Like, a mat a guy somebody with a matchable email address just emailed me asking to quote like, number one, it was amazing to just be my name included in some article on matchable.
Speaker 1:But then Right. You that's an opportunity. You you follow-up immediately and be like, hey. By the way, I'd love to write an article. Like, who do I speak to you about that?
Speaker 1:Do I speak to someone else? And then you pitch a relevant idea. And then I got my first article on there. And then now now you're in. Now you do it again and again.
Speaker 2:Right. So what what looks from the outside like this strange mythical, you know, Brian's legit and he's well known and all this, it seems very difficult to picture yourself in that situation. But in in reality, it's this very doable step by step, you know, little little piece after little piece after little piece. So it's just getting your foot in the door. I mean, right, I got lucky that I knew someone who used to work with Andrew Warner at Mixergy.
Speaker 2:Right? That's how I got the Mixergy interview, not because I'm some, like, superhero, well known entrepreneur. Yeah. But but then to take that and then to, you know, another podcast that I wanna do an interview or another show, and I send them a link to say, hey, I don't know if, you know, here's my Mixergy interview. Maybe your audience of commerce people would be interested in some of the things I have to say.
Speaker 2:So you're using one thing to leverage to the next, and then just keep kind of doing that as you go along, looking for opportunities as they come up, and then all of a sudden, you'll start to get to that point where people are asking you to come on and things are easier.
Speaker 1:Yes. And now I I think someone listening to this might feel like or might might get the impression like, oh, like, these are a bunch of lucky breaks. You you got lucky.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But that's who cares?
Speaker 1:Well, no. Like, I don't think that this is luck. I think this these are engineering opportunities.
Speaker 2:Like It's also taking advantage of lucky situations.
Speaker 1:Look. I the only reason that I was ever quoted in a Mashable article was because I wrote ten, twenty articles on freelancing in for the two years prior. I was putting myself out there and investing in this audience building stuff. And Yes. You know, it it's you you start to engineer these opportunities when you when you put yourself out there.
Speaker 2:Right. It looks lucky because you you didn't engineer the exact opportunity that came up, but the only reason they came up is because of the the work you've done.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And and then the other thing that might sound lucky, like, oh, they happen to open your email and they happen to accept your pitch. Well, no. Blog articles, blog editors need content. They are always look they do read every email that comes in.
Speaker 1:It probably takes them months to get back to you, but they do read it. And if you do your research and if you really care about writing comes back to the simple idea. Connect educate and connect with a certain reader and and empathize with the reader on the other end. You're just gonna you're gonna come up with something that really is valuable, and then the editor will recognize that in in the topic that you pitch. They they know that, like, I'll because they're the editor knows their their readers inside and out.
Speaker 1:So they're like, oh, yeah. We we know for sure our our readers are gonna eat this up. You know? Right.
Speaker 2:You're making their job easy, and and and they need it. They need they need more content.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Okay. Interesting. So so guest blogging clearly and, look, there's a lot of resources out there on the web on on how to do this stuff and how to use BuzzSumo to look at what people are talking about and but hearing it from someone like yourself that started out, you know, at a a, quote, lucky break at Freelance Switch and leveraging that up toward Mashable. And I think it's important to point out what hard work like that gets you at the end of the day. It's not just the ego of being somewhere big.
Speaker 2:Right now, you're in the middle of a launch, and you have guest post articles coming out on some of the biggest blogs in your sphere, and that that translates into into business.
Speaker 1:But let's let's tie this back to to business. Right? Like yeah. You you can look at today. This is five years after I started guest blogging and and and blogging in general.
Speaker 1:Right? Today, I I launched a this week, I launched a a a course paid course. No. I didn't wait five years to to make a return on on the investment of time. After writing that first FreudLanceWitch article and a few more after that, I got $10,000 client jobs because they found me on the web.
Speaker 1:You know? So this stuff does lead to paid opportunities, you know, along the way, you know, and even even before your email list reaches, like, a 100 people, you know, you can you can still leverage stuff to to make a living.
Speaker 2:Excellent. And what's the what's the next thing? If I just just to add on the guest post excuse me, the guest blogging thing, I would also say, that interviews and podcasts are are very much along the same lines, because podcasts need guests, and interview shows need guests. And you can do you can do you can follow a very similar path. And it's also a little more appealing because what you do is you you prepare, sure, but you show up and you do an interview for an hour and then you, you know, you're done.
Speaker 2:And then they go off and publish it, right? Like I've done an interview with marketingoptimization.tv. So it's just about marketing optimization. I talked about e commerce, I talked about product pages and checkout optimization. And that has brought credibility in cart hook opportunities and clients.
Speaker 2:And that was, you know, I did about an hour of prep for the interview and then the interview's half an hour and then you hit close, the person publishes it. And now it's in your back pocket to use as leverage for the next Yeah. Totally. Next opportunities.
Speaker 1:I just love podcasting in general. Like, I love doing this podcast, but, yeah, especially going on other ones. I I just recorded two of my favorite podcast to listen to. Three, actually. Bootstrapped with kids, startups for the rest of us, and product people.
Speaker 1:And some of those are coming out in the next few weeks. But, I just had a blast, like, talking to to to Scott Ewell and talking to Justin Jackson, you know, and and Mike Taylor, like Right.
Speaker 2:And that's and I like that, you know, guest guest blogging, I think, you know, it stays on the web. I mean, they both stay on the web just long. They're they're different.
Speaker 1:They're very different. Just podcasting in general Like, is it's
Speaker 2:Right. Well, that's the thing. The added benefit of an interview or a podcast, is you you get to know the host too. And then you connect, and all a sudden, your network starts to spread out. So Alex Harris, the the host of Marketing is optimization.tv, now we're like buddies.
Speaker 2:So we, like, email and, you know, when he just launched a book on Amazon on, for ecommerce, so I like, you know, I download that and I give him a review, and it's just this, a relationship builder on top of just the, just the post itself.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Totally.
Speaker 2:That lead that leads us into the next piece of it, is just, you know, podcasting in general.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's it's awesome because it's like it it's a truly different dynamic. Right? It's like people can read your your articles, and those can be very, you can share personal stories and stuff in the articles, and I think you should. That's another thing that helps connect.
Speaker 1:But in podcasting, it's like you're listening in. You really get to know the person. And it's like you kinda it's it's kind of a weird relationship. Right? Like, because the the podcasters that I tune into, like, I'm a huge junkie for podcasts.
Speaker 1:And Yeah.
Speaker 2:What do you use? Stitcher, iTunes?
Speaker 1:I for a while, I used the Apple Podcast app, but now I I'm using an app called Downcast, which I really like. Nice.
Speaker 2:I use Stitcher, but I I hear you podcasting. It's like sometimes I want music and sometimes I want, you know, something else, a little bit of education, and there's there's a little bit of something. If I'm in super business mode and I wanna hear about business, there's that. And if I wanna back up a little bit and listen to This American Life
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And get a little bit of a different feel. Yeah. I mean, look, the people who are listening right now, we're we're a good hour in. So first of all, we love you.
Speaker 1:Yes. We love
Speaker 2:you very much. But it is a very different and powerful relationship. Example number one, I an hour ago, I spoke with, Alexis Grant. I think that's her name. So she runs, like, a blog management service.
Speaker 2:And so she she saw the Mixergy interview and listened to the podcast and emailed me. And when we got on the phone, we got on a Google Hangout and we started talking about, you know, I'm interested in something for the Kartik blog. The first thing she said was, you know, this is funny. I feel like I know you. And that is just, you know, that's amazing, and it's really powerful and and fun and rewarding, and you can't do that same thing with the written word.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. I I think for a few reasons, the with podcasting, you it's like a captive audience in a way because you're you know that your audience are listening to you, like, in their car or or or, you know, they're on a train or they're, you know they're they're kinda just dedicated for the most part listening to like, I personally don't listen to podcasts, like, while I work. I my my brain Oh, yeah. Can't do that.
Speaker 1:You know, I I listen to stuff mainly in the car and when I'm walking the dog. You know? And and, like, I I think just that attention. Yeah. You're just giving them a 100% attention.
Speaker 1:And then it's it's the personalities. Like, you start to connect with the with certain personalities. And, yeah, you know, and and it's weird. Like, I, you know, like, I I was I was talking to Adam Clark. I'm a big fan of a lot of his shows, especially the gently mad.
Speaker 1:And I I've been on a couple of calls with him recently just just talking. And, like, I was like, man, I I already know you. Like, even though we're kind of just meeting here for the first time, I I already know, you know, what you're all about. You know? And and then, like, now I'm it's it's a it's a kind of a a strange Internet relationship thing to get around as you start to build your audience and build an email list.
Speaker 1:Right? Because I get emails from people on my on my list, and and they sometimes they they they speak or they I meet them in person sometimes and they speak to me like like like they know me, but I don't know them by name or at least not yet. Right? So it's like
Speaker 2:Yeah. You you call it a one way relationship. Right? Yeah. I don't I don't don't see that as a bad thing.
Speaker 2:First of all
Speaker 1:No. Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's no way to there's there's no way to change the nature of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right? It's just it's just the nature of it. It's it's it's part of the deal. And if you know, to be entirely honest, I think that's a it's a very advantageous position to be in because you're you're combining you're combining the the element of celebrity, right, in in the actual term definition celebrity, not like people actually know who the hell we are. You're combining an element of celebrity with authority, and and those two together are, you know, a recipe for for for trust and and and willingness to follow further, willingness to buy, and willingness to stay interested in.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. But, you know, I mean, just think about the podcast that I tune into. There's some a lot that I just tune into just because I wanna hear their update, their personal update, because I because I like hearing from them. You know?
Speaker 1:Right. And not not necessarily because I'm gonna learn something, you know, or or you know? But, you know, just like a quick mechanics thing about podcasting, why it's attractive, why you why you should think about doing it, especially if you're a listener of podcast, is there are there's less competition. More more so today than a few months ago, but less competition overall. If you're trying to rank highly for for blogging, blog articles, podcasting, it is much easier to rank highly in, like, the iTunes directory.
Speaker 1:It's difficult to get to the very top of, like, the business listings or whatever, but it's it's easy to rank. Like, I think for us, like, we're there's a bunch of bootstrapping podcast, but if you search for bootstrapping, we're gonna come right up. You know? Right. So and that's why I see this podcast and just podcasting in general as kind of like an inbound channel.
Speaker 1:You know? I I think a lot of people discover us through the podcast first, and then And then make their way over to our sites and newsletter and stuff like that later.
Speaker 2:Right. Right. And I I've been meaning to talk to you about this, actually, because I recently went to the Bootstrap with Kids website, and I'm very impressed with their with their focus on the email list.
Speaker 1:I just saw that today, actually. And
Speaker 2:it it it is a giant magnet of give me your email, baby. You know? And but but they make it compelling. It's not
Speaker 1:just Drex called action at the end of his of their podcast. It's freaking hilarious.
Speaker 2:It is it is hilarious. There's there's no sense in trying to replicate that. That that's that's some funny shit. But but the but they are they're using podcasting as an inbound channel. Right?
Speaker 2:It is you go to that. You listen to the podcast. They talk about their list. You go to the site, and it's really focused on the list. It's not just the lame pitch that you and I have going, like, you know, put your email here to get more episodes automatically sent to you.
Speaker 2:They have the we have, like, a package, and this is what you get Yeah. And spreadsheets and only the good shit. Right? Whatever whatever their, like, branding on it is. But it's definitely an inbound, inbound channel.
Speaker 2:Now I have to tell you, though, it sounds intimidating. To create your own podcast, like, is it it's a little strange for me to ask because I just joined
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yours, and you you kinda had done all that
Speaker 1:It definitely
Speaker 2:heavy lifting upfront.
Speaker 1:It was a total complicated kind of nightmare, to tell you the truth. But I I remember spending long days, like, googling and fearing all this technical crap out.
Speaker 2:Is it still like that? Is it it's gotta
Speaker 1:be used for I mean, today, there are two services out there, but I like, the big resources that I found really helpful was I think Pat Flynn has a whole page on it. If you just type, like, how to podcast in in Google, I'm pretty sure he's, like, number one or number two. Yeah. He has a really good resource page that that was pretty helpful. And then there were today, like, we don't use this service, but there's a a pretty cool service called oh, man.
Speaker 1:I'm blanking on their name. But simp it's Simplecast. Services.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure. But there there are definitely a few services out there that basically say, you just do the recording and we'll do everything else.
Speaker 1:Simplecast.fm. Yeah. And that's like a SaaS, like $12 a month. Like, looks pretty simple to get to get up and running with that.
Speaker 2:Simple. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, there that's so cool. You know, there there's some pretty good guides out there if you just Google for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We we keep it pretty simple. Right? So we're doing a Google Hangout so that it's automatically saved by video and uploaded to YouTube. We haven't optimized those, but at least now now we're to have a little library of them.
Speaker 2:Yep. And then at the same time, we're recording with with Audacity.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Each of us individually, we record our our own audio with Audacity, and then I line I take those two audio files and line them up. And my editor, I I currently use Camtasia. I used to use ScreenFlow for a while. Even though those are those are made for video, I actually use them for audio audio editing as well.
Speaker 2:Right. And and then are you doing the final editing, injecting music and all that?
Speaker 1:Or you're
Speaker 2:sending it off to someone?
Speaker 1:I used to send it off for the first, like, 40 episodes, and then I started doing it myself. Because it's so simple. Like, we don't we don't edit out, like, all the ums and and everything. It's it's just line up the two audio tracks.
Speaker 2:No fluff, maybe. No fluff.
Speaker 1:Ten second music at the beginning and export. That's it.
Speaker 2:And then what? Go to iTunes and upload?
Speaker 1:We use Blueberry as our podcasting hosting provider. Or the like, the audio is hosted by by this company called Blueberry.
Speaker 2:You like how I'm asking you what we do.
Speaker 1:I know. You have no idea.
Speaker 2:I just I just I just sent you a PayPal. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:So so they have a plug in in WordPress, and I upload the m p three to Blueberry service via our WordPress dashboard. And then so that's how and and then, like, Blueberry's plug in, basically, you configure all the settings that that hooks you up into iTunes. There's a little process for initially getting listed. But then once you're there, you know, you're you're listed. That's it.
Speaker 1:And, you know, then we then we create the blog post in WordPress. And and and I've, you know, I've I've tweaked our our theme a little bit to to to work for a podcast. That's, the audio player in in the post.
Speaker 2:It's it's pretty. Yeah. The the site is is is great. It's not necessary for
Speaker 1:It's not totally custom, but it you know, I I used a theme that is actually intended for podcasting, and it had, like, the video or or it had, like, the audio player built in. And I made a few tweaks on top of that. But
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I've seen I've seen a few people, like, one one guy I know, has a SaaS for accountants, for for CPAs, and he he just launched a podcast.
Speaker 2:And within two weeks of launching the podcast, was featured in article in, like, the biggest CPA blog on the web, because how often are podcasts coming out for CPAs?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Was gonna say, these, like, niche verticals, you know, it's
Speaker 2:Right. So these the the the competition thing is is is is true. There's there's opportunity there.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker 2:Cool, man.
Speaker 1:Well, man, we covered a lot, you know. So I think
Speaker 2:I know. We're we're pushing it here. We're pushing a 100 and not a 100, an hour and 15.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But I I think that's a
Speaker 2:good place to leave it. I think so too. You know what it is? It's it's a it's an ongoing conversation is is what it is because it
Speaker 1:It is.
Speaker 2:It changes based on the the situation. I think it'll be really interesting to hear more about your launch and and lining that up with having an audience and how guest posting factored into it and what happened to your subscriber base through the launch. Right? People who don't buy, but your list grows, you Yeah. Can sell to the you can sell to them later.
Speaker 2:You can right? It's it's still valuable.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And and when we do that interesting to see. And when we do that, episode in a few weeks, really, the big takeaway connecting it to building an audience is I was able to learn as much as I can about those people. And that's what that's what made me confirm that this idea for for Productize was the right one because I had a different idea earlier in the year, and I abandoned that when I learned more about my audience. So so we'll get more into that.
Speaker 2:And then you rolled up your sleeves and and did some, right, more more difficult work and interviews and yeah. That that'll be good to get into. And on on my side, maybe I will actually publish this this post that's been rattling around in my head as like my first real real blog post. Put
Speaker 1:it out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Alright. Cool.
Speaker 1:So that wraps it up.
Speaker 2:Thanks for joining us. Every everybody who wants to see previous posts, go on iTunes, subscribe, go to Bootstrap web, join our email list. It's not as, badass and and filled with curses as, as Brecht and and Scott's, but we're we're working on it. There. And that's it.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening. Give us a review. Five stars if you're enjoying it. We appreciate it. That helps us out in the rankings.
Speaker 2:Otherwise, we will see you next week.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir. See you.
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