[47] Business Models for Bootstrappers
This is Bootstrapped Web episode 47. It's the podcast for you, the founder who learns by doing as you boot strap your business online. And today, we're talking all about business models for bootstrappers and how we decide on different business models for different stages in the game. I am Brian.
Speaker 2:And I'm Jordan.
Speaker 1:Alright, Jordan. So, wow. 47 episodes. We're getting close to the big five o here.
Speaker 2:We I think I've been long for 10. So Yeah. I'll I'll take the credit if
Speaker 1:if
Speaker 2:you insist. But now we're getting up there. We're not, you
Speaker 1:know So Yeah.
Speaker 2:The dailies. Cool, man. So why don't we start off I'm really excited for this this episode and this just talking about business models in general. It ends up being something we think about all the time, but let me do a little update first.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir. So update on my end. You know, I'm gonna talk about a few random ones this week, know, kinda change up change things up from what I've been talking about. So last week, I picked up a book called the Sketch Notes Handbook by Mike Rhode. And I kinda heard about this when when Mike was interviewed on by Justin Jackson on Product People.
Speaker 1:And Mike Rhode is a really talented designer, he kind of I I guess he kind of developed this thing called sketch notes or sketch noting. And, essentially, it's like it's like a a hybrid of of taking notes and Oh. And and kind of sketching and illustration. And he kinda takes it from the angle of, you know, taking notes like, when you're at a conference and you're taking notes on what the speaker is talking about. I'm interested in this.
Speaker 1:You know, I I might do that, you know, at a conference or whatever, but I'm really more interested in just kind of taking my own notes on my day to day work and and kind of organizing the thoughts and planning and goal setting around my business and everything. I've this year, I've been doing you know, making use of my notebook and a and a pen and paper more than I have in the past. And, that's that's felt good. And, I've always kinda I've never really been a a a great artist or or had, you know, great drawing skills or anything like that. But, I've always kinda tried to map things out visually.
Speaker 1:I've always been a very visual thinker and and I was just really attracted to this idea of Sketch Notes as soon as I heard about it. And you guys may may know Mike Road and his work. He's the illustrator from the book Rework that the thirty seven sign
Speaker 2:up got. Looks familiar. The second you see it, you you know you've seen it before. It's very distinct and very interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Very very cool stuff. What what kind of notebook do you use? Do you you care about the, aesthetic of the notebook? I feel like, you know, people get into pens, they get into notebooks.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, you know, I just I just went on on Mike Rhodes website, looked up, like, what he's using. So I just picked up, you know, one of those common Moleskine Moleskine notebooks that you you see. Cool. And
Speaker 2:I I use Muji.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah?
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know that that like I think it's Japanese company. They have some clothes. They have just like little knickknacks. There's this there's a store at the JetBlue terminal at JFK.
Speaker 2:Yeah. They have these little thin notebooks. You get like five of them for like $10. You can find it on Amazon too and they're very very cool. They have like these nice little colors.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And of course, the Pilot g two zero seven pens.
Speaker 1:Nice. I don't with have it me. I have my notebook and pen at home. But, yeah, don't know. I just picked it up in in a stable.
Speaker 1:But it it was like the same brand that that he was using it and it works really well. It's like a I don't know. I don't know. It's it's black. I don't I don't know.
Speaker 1:But and, you know, I've I've been trying to dedicate, like, a half an hour to an hour of doing sketch notes in the morning, you know, around breakfast time, like, right after breakfast. And I found that it's it's very much like meditation, which I was trying earlier in the year to do meditation, you know, for me after like three months, it just didn't take. But this kinda does. I guess it's I I'm just one of those like visual creative people, and and I really it it does kind of focus your mind. It it brings you back to the moment of I'm just, you know, working on something right now and and thinking through my thoughts.
Speaker 1:So I I don't know. It's it's really good way to like to get centered for the day, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think it's really healthy. It's like some right brain activity. It's like when I'm looking at the computer screen, I can do stuff and then I take the dogs for a walk around the block and I can think about things differently.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Totally.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I like busted out my guitar which I don't play and have tried to learn for like ten years. Oh, yeah. I just set it out in front of me. I'm like, let let me just like deal with it for five minutes a day and just kinda explore that side.
Speaker 2:Cool. Unrelate
Speaker 1:the entire my whole life. I have to show you the
Speaker 2:Yeah. I have been trying. I don't have the discipline to learn but hopefully, you know, maybe I'll find the motivation. Yeah. Along the same lines, I met a bunch of guys from Portland.
Speaker 2:I actually went to like an event that they put on. These guys started float on which is a float tank business. They have like a retail location and then they do training. It's a it's a really interesting and growing and successful business. It's a little industry that's growing.
Speaker 2:And that's that's a form of meditation ish. Right? You're in like a float tank where like you deprive yourself of senses for like ninety minutes. Wow. I feel like I'd have a panic attack.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But I but
Speaker 1:I can't do
Speaker 2:anything for
Speaker 1:ninety minutes.
Speaker 2:Right. Ninety minutes? I'm like, I'd I'd fall asleep twice. I'd I'd pee twice. I'd
Speaker 1:The only thing I could do for ninety minutes of this is basically this podcast.
Speaker 2:Yes. Well, we're gonna we're gonna try not to push 90. Yes. But I think that's a that's that's a great theme. Just explore that side of your brain and not only does it help make you happy, it also helps you in in thinking about business issues.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Totally. So let's see what else is happening. I know a few guys a few of you have commented on like the random siren that seems to show up at on every episode of this podcast. Well, my never ending sound issues here in in my office will hopefully come to to an end sometime in the next two weeks.
Speaker 1:I'll be moving offices just across the hall, but luckily to the other side of the building, which is much quieter away from the street, away from the construction. So, hopefully, we'll be able to have some clean recordings and actually get some work done around here. And then, you know, lately, I'm I'm gonna call out a few podcasts. I I've been kind of doing like a guest tour, guess, could say, of a whole bunch of podcasts. But the reason I'm I'm calling these out is because they happen to be four of my favorite podcasts that I that I always tune into as as a fan.
Speaker 1:So, I was really excited to to be on their startups for the rest of us. I I went on and and spoke with Mike Taber there. Rob Walling was traveling, so he was off for a few episodes and I stepped in. I was also on the episode with Justin Jackson on his podcast, Product People. And you guys may know Justin.
Speaker 1:He was on a episode with us a couple of weeks back. So that was awesome. Great show. And then I was on with Scott Yule on Bootstrapped with Kids. And so Brecht was was taking off that episode, and I kinda stepped in, spoke with Scott.
Speaker 1:And next week, I'll be recording an episode with Adam Clark on his podcast, The Gently Mad, which that's another favorite. You guys may or may not know that one. You should know it. It's it's pretty awesome, especially if you work in the web industry. What I really liked about the gently mad, and and I'm a fan of this show as well, is is it's very different.
Speaker 1:Like, you hear a totally different side of the guest that you know so well in in the industry. I mean, not that I'm I'm well known. Like, he's had a bunch of people who are not so well known. But, like, he's he's also had, like, Jeffrey Zeldman on and and I don't know, a whole bunch of other people. It's it's very much like WTF with Mark Marron, if if any of you listen to that.
Speaker 1:Another another favorite of mine.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's big time.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it it's kind of like the WTF, but for the web industry. And Adam just kinda talks talks with you for like ninety minutes, you know. Interesting. These are like long form episodes just kinda talking about life, where you live, your marriage, your kids, a whole range of other issues.
Speaker 1:Cool. And then, know, talk a little bit about work stuff, but it's really like, let's hear the other side of the story.
Speaker 2:Nice. I I haven't heard of that one. I'm really interested to check that out.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, we actually haven't recorded that one yet. So but that's scheduled for next week. And that's my update. So Jordan, what's up with you?
Speaker 2:Nice. Making the rounds. First thing I wanna say is I'm really proud of that last episode we did on family businesses. I think it was, you know, obviously near near dear. So if you get a chance to check that out, if you're involved in family businesses, if you just kinda curious that it was something I'm I'm I'm proud of.
Speaker 2:So that that was cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That was one of my favorite episodes.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Was cool. It's just real. Yeah. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I I
Speaker 2:agree. Along the same lines as what you're talking about, you know, exploring the right side of your brain. I've just been trying to loosen up a little. I I get into a state of stress and impatience because I kind of walk around just baffled and discontent with the fact that I don't have too many dollars in the bank, and that's not really healthy. You know, maybe that has its uses, but I'm just trying to more consciously pay attention to like relax, be happy, your life is really good.
Speaker 2:You know, and you know, it's not cool for anyone to kind of walk around that, for themselves and for the people around them. But it's especially uncool when you've got little kids like, I don't want to be thinking about that when I'm hanging out with my daughters. So I've just been trying to more consciously be like, okay, relax, be happy and then when it comes to work, you know, get after it and be ambitious but then don't let that creep all over the place in your life so that you're not satisfied and content when, you know, I really should be. So that's yeah. That's something I've been thinking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's that's a really good one. And maybe we should do a whole episode about it, but It's I get into those ruts all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know? And I don't like the touchy feely side of things, but it is it is important even if, you know, it's not like the only thing. Some people go go too far into it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, like, for me, when when I do get into those ruts where I I I I do get very, agitated and and and super impatient with people. And and I find it's number one, I'm when I'm unhealthy. I kinda feel like I might be through one of these ruts right now. But, you know, not eating healthy and not exercising.
Speaker 1:And then the other one is not having that clear separation between work and home. And, I mean, having the working from an office helps with that. But lately, especially with my recent launch and everything, when I'm at home, I've been checking the iPhone way too much. Yeah. Like that needs to shut off and go in the other room and just hang out, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah. These are all things to to strive for and and no one's gonna be perfect at it. But but it is important.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And I would be I have to mention over the past week, I've started, doing doing as if it's like cocaine, doing bulletproof coffee.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:And that shit works. The first is the deal with that?
Speaker 1:I I hear about it, but I I don't really know what it is.
Speaker 2:So it's high quality coffee and it's, you know, you you grind it fresh and then do the drip method. I got the little Hario v 60 little triangular thing, which is like $10.
Speaker 1:So this is no like Keurig thing. This is like something else?
Speaker 2:No. This is just really high quality drip coffee. And then what you do is you put it in a blender with about a tablespoon of unsalted butter from grass fed cows. Okay. So it sounds disgusting, but the truth is, I mean, you put you put if you put I don't put milk in my coffee because that's just ruining coffee.
Speaker 2:But if you do, it's, you know, butter is just take milk and keep blending it.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So it's actually delicious and then you add a little bit of oil and they sell like this brain oil. I was like, screw it. I I'll give it a try. But it's it's strong, man. It it's hardcore.
Speaker 2:Really? It's delicious and it gets you amped up but I would say start slow. The first time I did it, I was like, I'm gonna vomit all over my desk because it it was so strong. So I would say start slow, not too much butter and not too much of the oil, but it's really really good.
Speaker 1:Wow. I'll do that.
Speaker 2:That has helped on the focus Got and the energy level. I'm serious. Okay. So besides that, I'm very happy with where Cardhook is. Still picking up momentum.
Speaker 2:I've hired someone for SEO. I've hired someone for content writing. I actually hired someone off Reddit for content writing. Cause I love Reddit Wow. Very much.
Speaker 2:He like wrote a post about how he used Reddit to build up his agency and I like contact him. His kids in college. His writing is really good. I was like, I like this guy. Let's let's do this.
Speaker 2:So I hired him.
Speaker 1:I try to stay as far away from Reddit as I possibly can. I I sit like it's one of those sites that I've that I've never become obsessive over because I feel like I once I go to reddit.com, I'll never get out.
Speaker 2:It's it's Yeah. It is dangerous that way.
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 2:and maybe it's good advice to stay away from it but it but it still has its its value. Let's see. And besides that, I think the search for developers, my whole integration issue, is hopefully coming to a happy conclusion over the next week or so. So I'll keep you updated on that once once that, you know, gets I don't wanna talk too soon. Once once it starts going down the successful path, that's good.
Speaker 2:And besides that, just, taking a page out of your book, Brian, and trying to look into the future a few months and planning, you know, over the next few months instead of just what's gonna happen over the next few weeks. Just setting down some goals on, you know, what by the end of the year and then first quarter for Cardhook and yeah. Think maybe right around the beginning of the year, we should do we should do a show on you know, setting goals for the year, what they are, how to keep track of them and then we can kind of keep up with it over the year, have some accountability, with the audience.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Totally. So before we get into it today, let's, let's cover a new iTunes review that this came in from from Greg Elizondo, five stars. He said, let me pull it up here. He said, Brian and Jordan give relevant and actionable advice for early and intermediate stage bootstrappers.
Speaker 1:If you like start start ups for the rest of us or bootstrapped with kids, be sure to check these guys out. Well, those are definitely two of our favorites as well. So thanks, Greg. We appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:And yeah. So let's let's get into it. Today's topic.
Speaker 2:Yes. So business models. Right? Basically a fancy way of saying different ways to make money or different ways to charge or different ways to, right? It's all about how to how to take the value that you're providing and how to ask, for money.
Speaker 2:Right? You wanna add anything in terms of simplifying that that word, that that term business model?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. And I think we're kind of framing this episode in choosing a business model, but but like getting to to your next step. And that depends on where where you're at, which phase in your in your bootstrapping journey you're at. What do you need to do?
Speaker 1:What do you need to change? What type of business do you need to pursue in order to grow your company or or in order to get from point a to point b within the next, say, six to twelve months?
Speaker 2:Right. It's really about understanding your options and what the advantages and disadvantage of each option. Right? SaaS versus info product versus consulting versus product type service. All these different options that we have in this world and you know, what makes sense for what point in time.
Speaker 2:So we figured the best way to do this is sequentially. So at the very beginning of the Bootstrap entrepreneur journey, the first phase whether you're employed or you're a student or you wanna go out on your own, whatever it is, the first stage is replacing your income. Right? Right. If you wanna be in the game, you need a way to pay the bills while not being an employee or or or a student.
Speaker 2:So that's that's kind of phase one. So let's let's start there. What do you see as the options at that stage to to replace your income?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So like phase one, you maybe you've given your two week notice or you've or you've recently left and now you're out on your own and it's like, well, what's next? Should I build a product? Should I freelance and do client work and do consulting? Maybe something in between.
Speaker 1:What should I do to start earning what I was earning at the job? I I think the most common thing that we see and and the thing that I would recommend and the thing that I did when I was at this stage, and for me, it was back in early two thousand eight when I left my job and became a freelancer is go freelance. Start finding clients and do work, you know, pick up some client jobs. We lately, you know, we're seeing a little bit more of productized services. I I've been in contact obviously, with with quite a people who are doing this, quite a few people who are doing this.
Speaker 1:And I have had seen some people who are currently in jobs where they just recently left their job, and they launched a productized consulting service. So that can work. But more commonly, we just kinda see going straight into free general freelance work, whether that's billing by the hour, billing by the project, just finding those very first few clients.
Speaker 2:Right. And and most likely, it's related to what you're currently doing in your employee. Right? That's that's the easiest transition.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So for the people who are more patient and you know, less, less risky, starting something while you're employed, I think can be an ideal scenario. You need to have the discipline and the patience for it, but if you can get something started while you're still employed and as that starts to grow, that gives you the confidence to take, you know, take the leap that that's a safer path. Yeah. And and that, you know, the the umbrella of an employee of an employee, might allow you to explore things a little bit beyond what you currently do. Right?
Speaker 2:So if you're an insurance salesman and you just want to get out of that industry completely, staying employed and then starting off either a blog or or service or a product that's not related. Making that leap is definitely safer, if you let it grow while you're still employed.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But, yes. But I think the most logical path is is freelance work. Right? The the downside of that is you're gonna trade time for money. The upside is that it's the shortest path to revenue and to clients and to just get in the market and get involved.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, you know, yes, that's a trade off like you're you're doing billable hours and trading time for money. But at this phase in in your journey, that's a huge win. You're you're going from being employed and working on on someone else's thing, someone else's company, and now you're now you're working on your own. Now, you're you are your own boss, that's a huge win at this at this stage.
Speaker 1:I'm just trying to remember back, like, from from my story when I when I did this, I went free I was a I worked at a freelance I worked at a web design agency, and then I became a freelance web designer. I I don't think that I actually had client projects going on while I was still on the job, but I think I did do one job for free off of Craigslist. And I remember I did that on purpose just to I think just to get the experience of working of doing my own client project. I just offered to do one project for free. And then as soon as I went freelance, I actually got my first two paying clients and they were referrals from my former boss.
Speaker 1:He was nice enough to to to to refer them to me because he knew that I was going freelance and those clients were too small for the agency to take on. But for me, $800 for a website
Speaker 2:It's a nice starting point.
Speaker 1:Was was perfect. It was it was a good starting point for me.
Speaker 2:Nice. And a lot of people do that's an ideal scenario. And what a lot of people try to do is they try to make their employer their first client.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think I might have done a little bit of that too.
Speaker 2:That's that's a great way to go. I mean, in essence, you were because they referred out to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I think a couple of months later, I went back and did a a couple of, like, billable hours for them as well. And that definitely helped. I I received a couple of emails from some of the readers of my newsletter who asked this question, like, they're trying to leave their job, and they were nervous about their current employer. Like, were nervous about launching their own website, likemyname.com and for hire or you can hire me to do these services.
Speaker 1:They were afraid of their employer finding that and not being cool with that whole idea. Yeah. And what I replied to that was, number one, chances are very slim that your employer's even gonna notice. They're not they're not Google. I mean, I guess sometimes they are keeping tabs and Googling you.
Speaker 1:But for the most part, they're running their their business, you know, and the managers are doing their thing. So what you do on your own time is probably not showing up on the radar, especially if you're just a couple of weeks away from leaving your job anyway. It doesn't matter. And number two, like, in my experience was, you know, whatever work that you do is probably so much smaller than what your larger company that you worked for would ever even consider taking on. So you're you're working in in two different you're working in a small pond and they're working in a larger ocean.
Speaker 1:So it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:Right. Chances are, you know, they won't mind. I mean, this is one of those things where it's like, too bad. Right? If that that's the problem with being employed that you're not in charge of your own life and your own destiny and you have to just figure it out because that that right there is why you need to get out of that situation.
Speaker 2:Start working for yourself. Yeah. Because when you're working on somebody else's dream, you know, your yours gets deferred. Yeah. So What was your situation.
Speaker 1:You you were full time employed and what was your next step?
Speaker 2:So so my experience was at a gigantic Wall Street bank. Right? And and there it was very straightforward. It was we will pay you enough that you will sacrifice your life for us but not too much. Right?
Speaker 2:So so that that was that was the difficulty of that situation. It was okay. I made a 100 k in my first year of college at age 23. You know, I don't even know how long ago that was. Twelve years ago.
Speaker 2:And then if I stay, next year is gonna be like $1.80 And then after that, it's like $2.50. So it's like it's like it messes with you in that way. You're like, should I give up any dreams, passions, anything in exchange for a very very certain path to to, you know, to bigger income. I still felt that the right move was to be in control of my destiny and so I had to just kind of sit there and deal with it and then quit after my my bonus hit. So I knew I didn't have any chance of making them a first client.
Speaker 2:I basically was just plotting and scheming along the way and working working things out ahead of time and basically knew, okay, as soon as I leave, I'm gonna go take a month to take a really big deep breath after this miserable experience. And then, you know, and then joined my, joined the family business. So it was basically a lot of plotting and
Speaker 1:was that your plan? Like, you knew you were gonna leave and then you knew that would join the family business. Like, that was the plan.
Speaker 2:That was that was the plan. Right? But but even that, it still took planning. It still took, okay, some negotiation with my father and, okay, this is how it's gonna work and this is why it's gonna make sense and this is what we need to do in order to justify it and make it make sense and all that. So it was, it was still a bad situation and and the bonus hang over your head like you can't quit.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You you can't quit. You just work I think
Speaker 1:I did the same thing probably for a much lower bonus. I was working at a 15 person web agency or, you know. But still, I do remember kind of waiting. I I remember that I left in January of of two thousand eight, which means I waited for that Christmas bonus. Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which is normal and, you know, smart. Yes.
Speaker 1:So The funny you know, while we're talking about this, funny thing that I always look back on that year, it 02/2008, I went freelance. Early two thousand eight. Late two thousand eight, just just what? 08/08 or nine months later, the economy tanked. Yep.
Speaker 1:And I always wonder, like, man, if I had just stayed at that job a couple of more months, and I see the economy tank, I it's probable that I would not have I would have held on to that job. And then if I stayed at that job for another year or two, it's like, maybe I never would have left. You know? As I as I started to get older and got married and everything, maybe maybe I, you know, this whole this whole story could be totally different. I always think about that for some
Speaker 2:reason. Yeah. That's that's I hear you. You know, if I I look back on it in in two ways. I have to admit, if I had any idea what would happen to finance over the past ten years, the the just quantity of money that got poured into finance, maybe I would have left.
Speaker 2:Right? Because the or I could have just deferred the entrepreneurial ventures and, you know, started off with a million bucks in the bank to go start my first business if I had grinded it out for, you know, five, six, seven, eight years. Mhmm. But then I think about that I'm like, yeah, that's a nice thought but I was so miserable that it would not have been worth any of that. So you know, who cares what you would have done?
Speaker 2:This is what you did and
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:You know, you gotta you gotta deal with it and make make the best of it and enjoy
Speaker 1:it. Totally.
Speaker 2:So I I just wanna mention one thing about this phase. I see a lot of people trying to make a really big leap Yeah. From from I'm employed and I'm unhappy and I wanna go pursue my dreams and the first thing they wanna start is assess. Yeah. And and that is a giant leap to go from to to basically to replace your income, which is essentially at the bottom line, the the goal of this first phase, to replace your income with a SaaS is incredibly challenging.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Know, unless you live at home.
Speaker 1:And it takes so long. It takes it takes years.
Speaker 2:Right. I I remember the the financials and projections that I I put together for for Carhook and, you know, I'm barely catching up to them now and I I I I thought I would be after six months, you know, further along than I am right now. And that's just it's just the reality. It's gonna take a really long time. The the chances of it working out very quickly are low, and so that's why I think the better options are just a lower risk.
Speaker 2:Look, freelancing is the best thing and and one of the things I tell people about freelancing, some people like I don't really wanna do that. The thing that freelancing does is it gets you in the game. Yeah. And and when you when you you don't know the opportunities in an industry until you get dirty in it. Until you get in there and have a look around.
Speaker 2:And that's why it seems like people get lucky and it's not that they got lucky, it's that they dove in and then opportunities presented themselves that would not have if they were from you're looking at from the sidelines.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And like the whole point of this whole conversation today is about the lessons that you have to learn in sequence in each of these phases. When you go freelance coming from a full time job, oh my god, that first year when I was a freelancer, I learned almost everything. Not everything, but I learned like a universe of of of new things about being on my own and being being in charge of what I'm doing, and earning a living on my own, and talking to clients, and asking for money. That's such a huge thing.
Speaker 1:Like, a year prior when I was sitting at a job, I did not have that ability to do that. Like Right. I I think I I think, you know, people are kind of understating how difficult that is to to wrap your head around. Look, I am completely responsible for the money that I bring in this month to pay my rent or pay my mortgage or whatever. It it even reminds me of like the phase before that, like going from college student to working in the professional world.
Speaker 1:Like, I learned everything on the job. I didn't learn anything in college. I I did learn a lot in college, but I went into a different field. You know. The you know, everything that I know about being a professional, learned as an intern, and then as an employee, and then as a freelancer, and then as a business owner.
Speaker 1:So, yeah. That's that's what we're talking about here. It's like, as a freelancer, you for example, today in in rest or in the years of Restaurant Engine, I had to do hundreds of sales calls every day talking to strangers, trying to sell them and get them to sign up for our service. The only and I am not a salesperson. The only way that I was ever able to do that is because I had years of of negotiating much larger contracts with my own clients.
Speaker 1:You know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's a life skill that most people don't possess. Right? And this is this is the single biggest transformation to go from student to entrepreneur or to go from employee to entrepreneur. You know, I don't wanna bad talk people who are employees but I think in this country with the amount of opportunity and freedom that you have.
Speaker 2:Not to be in that game is is crazy. At least I I can't I can't imagine not being in in that game and look, that's who we're talking to now. Those are our people. The people who have, you know, put their, you know, balls on the on the line.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And, you know
Speaker 2:Make their own make their own new come and that's the biggest leap of all. Of course.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Mean, like, course, entrepreneurship is not for everyone and, know, that's a discussion, but I do I do I I tend to agree with you. I mean, it's it's like today, I think the economy is changing so much, Our world is changing so much, and it's so much easier and more accessible to do your own thing. And and and I think in our opinion, it's actually less risky to go and do your own thing and be in charge of your own destiny rather than putting your destiny in in the hands of some manager who might just lay off an entire floor one day, you know.
Speaker 2:Yep. I I I have to agree that in in that calculation, it ends up being less risky to to take that chance and do it on your own. So that leads directly into the second phase. Once you've made the leap and you are earning your own money, so you're either a freelancer or you you know, you partnered up with a few people to build an agency, you guys have clients. Now, you're trading your time for money which is good.
Speaker 2:You've replaced your income but that's not the goal. The goal is to, you know, go further toward financial freedom and trading time for money doesn't do that. So you need to go beyond time for money and you need to, you know, you need to start separating the the relationship between how much time you put in and how much money you make. So what are the options at that point in time to to get to the next level?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So this is like making that transition from client work to products. The dream is to sell some kind of product. Right? And there as we know, there's a whole world of different different products out there.
Speaker 1:Everybody loves the SaaS.
Speaker 2:Right. Now, why though? Why why do you wanna sell a product? What were the attributes of a product business that then make it attractive?
Speaker 1:Right. Big because a product business is not client work. A product business is scalable. It it can potentially be detached from your time. And and and and yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, you can you know, you you finally have something to sell. You're you're selling this solution.
Speaker 2:You can sell more of it than than otherwise, if it is related directly to how much time you put into it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Whereas coming from client work, you're essentially you're the only thing that you have to sell is your time. And with that time, you're you're doing all sorts of different solutions for all sorts of different people. You're you're reinventing what you sell every time. Whereas with a product, you develop something that has real value and then you can sell that.
Speaker 1:You move away from billing for your time and now you're you're beginning to build an asset, a company that has some kind of value. And and that'll manifest itself in phases three and four, which we'll talk about in a minute. But but, yeah. So, like, what are you what are you gonna do to to begin that transition out of client work and into some kind of products business? I think you have a number of options.
Speaker 1:Obviously, I've been writing and teaching a lot about productized services. I I do see that as a as a as a very accessible and just a route that really makes a lot of sense in in this phase because it's it's something that can work hand in hand with the services that you're already providing as a freelancer or as an agency. And but you're beginning to think of things more you're you're beginning to think you're beginning to think product. You're beginning to package it into a value added proposition. And that gets you into that mindset of, like, how can I market something as a product rather than market it as a time?
Speaker 1:So there's that. And and then the the other aspect of this and there are another a a number of other products that you can look at, like one time downloads, digital downloads, so doing it some kind of info product or an ebook. But, like, the thing the point that I wanna make here is you need to begin the process of ramping down or just a like, you have to
Speaker 2:don't It's know how to keep a it's tricky because it's a it's a the the word product, right, we're using as a substitute for for being one step removed from you doing all the work. Right? If you were a freelancer and then you were successful enough to start going down an agency path and all an agency means is that there's a person that you can hire and that they can do Right. You can get paid a $100 an hour for the work. You pay the employee, the freelancer, whoever you're outsourcing it to, $50 an hour and now you're making $50 an hour while you're not doing all the work.
Speaker 2:Right. So in essence, that's a product. Right? Because it acts the same way. So you can systemize your freelancing work.
Speaker 2:Productizing it is one achievable, doable way to do that. To right? So I've, one of my favorite productized businesses is, is this consulting. I think I've talked about before. Went through this guy Russ something, Russ Ruffino's, yeah, sales funnel.
Speaker 2:And he does a consulting thing for $10,000 or somewhere in that ballpark. And he's upfront and he does the marketing and he does the webinar, all this other stuff. And then he has sales people in place and people who build the landing pages for you and all that. So that's a service, but he has removed himself in a few layers beyond doing all the actual work. Right?
Speaker 2:This is what we think of as a more traditional business with employees and the boss kind of makes all the money. This is the the web version of it. All that is applicable to if you sell an e book. If you sell one of them a day or five of them a day, you're not doing five times more work. You're creating you're breaking the direct relationship, the one to one relationship between how much time you put in, how much money you make.
Speaker 2:And that I think is the goal of this phase.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And, of course, you know, productized services are are one option. Another option, of course, would be to I think in this phase, you know, you you can take a look. If you're like a web developer or a WordPress developer or something, can look at developing and selling a plug in for WordPress. That's relatively low complexity in your wheelhouse.
Speaker 1:You can build something like this. You kind of know some of the avenues that you can go about marketing something like that or design a WordPress theme. That was my first, digital download product that I sold and, you know, created and sold was a one time purchase WordPress theme. Ebook is actually a little bit more work and takes a lot more time to develop really. So I don't know that I would actually look at that as a as a very first product, you know.
Speaker 1:If if you wanna get into like the educational info product space, I would look at some kind of paid attendance webinar. Schedule webinar, promote it, charge a fee to attend. That's a good, you know, first first step. The the point is just something small and something that is not necessarily just flat billable hours. And now that but the point that I wanna make here is that I I've heard a lot of people who wanna make this who dream of making this transition, and then they tell themselves like, if I'm gonna get into products, I have to stop all client work right now and shift my entire focus full time, forty plus hours a week to my new product that doesn't exist yet.
Speaker 1:That's
Speaker 2:Dangerous. Dangerous.
Speaker 1:You have to you have to balance it. I mean, I I did client work for over two years after I launched Restaurant Engine, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I launched Cardhook with the intention of doing it full time. And then after six months, I was happy with the progress but I realized it's not going as fast as my Excel spreadsheet said it was. And so that's when I got into client work. Because I just oh, you know, you just have to admit reality.
Speaker 2:Okay. Even if this is working, I don't have any interest in waiting for this thing to catch up to my income goals. And software while being I think many people see it as the most attractive product because it's scalable and because it's recurring and because you can, you know, it's easily distributed throughout the the the world. You can get clients quickly, all that. And the recurring element I think is what's most most attractive about it to people.
Speaker 2:It does take an incredibly long time not only to build but also to market. And so to think that you're gonna stop bringing in income and focus all of it on a piece of software, that that's just as risky. Even if you, you know, even if you saved a $100,000 and put that in the bank and say, okay, now I'm ready to go 100% on my software product like, yeah. You're not gonna spend all that money on, you know, on the product but you have to live and if Yeah. Realistically, if a software as a service is gonna get to anything meaningful, call it $10,000 a month.
Speaker 2:If you do that within a year, you're well ahead of most bootstrappers.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And $10 a month, you know, that doesn't cover everything for for for an individual, especially if you're married, especially if you got kids and all that. So to wait a year to replace your income is is really risky.
Speaker 1:Yes. Definitely. And again, this this whole theme is that we're bootstrapping. So you have to be smart about cash flow. The the whole point of making these decisions is how can I keep going?
Speaker 1:How can I keep making that next step forward without running out of money, you know, because because getting investors is not an option for us? We're bootstrapping. So, so, you know, again, in in this phase, we wanna begin to think about somehow making the time. And, I know I I spoke a lot about like, it's so important to focus and stay focused on one big goal at a time. And, that's that's often the argument that I hear from people is saying like, well, I can't do both.
Speaker 1:I can't do client work and work on my new product because I'm not focused. I'm spread too thin. And look, I I suffered from from being spread too thin, but part of it is because I I took on a third and fourth project when I should have had only two. You know? And you you just you you have to balance it.
Speaker 1:You have to figure out a way to whether it's Monday through Thursday working on client work, and Friday, Saturday, Sunday working on a product. Yes. That means working weekends, you know. This is this is hustle. This phase is about hustling and making a transition.
Speaker 1:It it probably means working more hours and making less money.
Speaker 2:Yes. Very frustrating stage. You really feel like you have so much work to do and it never gets done and you get down on yourself because you haven't done it, but you you have no choice but to make the commitment to Right. I think it This is the classic, definition of working on your business instead of in your business. So even I look at something like Carthook and even there I don't have the privilege.
Speaker 2:I don't have the right to focus on just one thing. Because if I focus on just being in the business and converting free trials and marketing and emailing people and respond to people, that wouldn't get me to where I need to go. I have to make the commitment to say, three hours a day, I don't work on that stuff. I work on the sales funnel. I work on the advertising creative.
Speaker 2:I work on retargeting. I work on partnerships and that's it's very much what you're doing if you're a freelancer and at the same time working on something else. You know, the chances are you're not going to to get to your goal by strictly exchanging time for money. Right? You're not a lawyer.
Speaker 2:You're not charging $500 an hour. It's most likely not gonna get you to where you wanna be. And even if you wanna stay a freelancer and you wanna keep doing client work, but you wanna get to a place where you're hiring people and that's how you're essentially productizing, that's how you're gonna start accelerating the amount of value that one person can deliver. Even then you have to commit to working on the business and developing employees and developing processes. So Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a it's a really really tough stage because you spread yourself thin, but you you have no choice if you wanna get to the next step.
Speaker 1:Yep. And and, know, there's also like a a flip side to this, like, in in one sense, I I hear, need to stop all client work and just focus on the product, but then I hear this, maybe I hear this even more often is I'm afraid to ramp down the client work and make a little bit of time to work on something of my own. We have to keep doing projects for clients, we have to keep billing for hours, you know, and and I see a lot of people doing that. And and here, what I'll say is the importance of, look, do some just do those projects on your own. You're not getting paid for them.
Speaker 1:You're not gonna get paid for them for a long time. But you gotta you gotta be working on your own stuff, whatever you wanna call it, like a 20% or 10% or, you know. I remember, actually, when I was freelancing, one of the first things that I worked on that was my own and not a client project was actually not the WordPress themes. It was actually a blog. I launched a blog about songwriting and music production because that's that's what I was into for many years.
Speaker 1:I'm still kind of into it more as a hobby now. But, I I really wanted to grow like a a blog and and eventually monetize it with with ads or or something and just grow an audience on that. And, I I actually started to do okay with that for like nine months there, and then I I just burnt out and couldn't keep building the content. And I I kind of wish that I stuck with it, but I didn't. And but that was my first thing.
Speaker 1:And I spent hours, like a bunch of extra hours on that for nine months straight just because it's a project. I'm trying it. You know? And and I could point to, like, a handful of other little things that I just tried knowing, like, look. I'm just gonna throw something at the wall and and put try my hand at this and try to build something for the fun of it.
Speaker 1:And and, yes, of course, I'm trying to build some kind of business. I know I'm gonna try to monetize this. But and and chances are this is not gonna work. But I've gotta try it today so that tomorrow I can I can do I I can put a better try at this thing? And, of course, you know, paying the bills while I'm at it, working extra hours, you know, maybe taking if I used to do five projects at a time, client projects at a time, taking four instead, you know, doing that for a while.
Speaker 1:And then as something starts to starts to catch on and now I'm making a little bit of money with this little side project. Alright. Let's make that three client projects for a while. All of a sudden, let's let's make the decision. We're only gonna do one client project to pay to pay some of our bills and now now our little product is starting to grow.
Speaker 1:And that's how we move from phase two to phase three.
Speaker 2:Yes. And I think that's right. So in phase three, you've you've put in the hours, you've stayed up late, you've worked on weekends. Whatever you needed to do to have something in the market beyond just your hours and now you've got two things going on. So maybe you have an agency and you do, you know, website work on that and at the same time you have an info, product as a as a course on how to how to build an agency, right, or how to hire people on oDesk.
Speaker 2:Whatever it is now now you're in the game and this is this is really tricky because now you need to grow two things with the hope of one being a standout, of one proving itself as your your winner and where you need to double down. Right? So in this phase, I think I mean, you are firmly in this phase at this point. You you've actually shimmied over from freelancing and then you've got restaurant engine as a product. Right?
Speaker 2:So why don't you talk about that that piece of how it was to take one foot and and leap into Yeah. Restaurant restaurant engine.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, I'm gonna start off by saying it was not smooth at all. It was it was very difficult and I made a bunch of missteps, you know. What happened for me was, as I said, you know, I ramped down from like five projects to three to one and then I stopped. And so I launched Restaurant Engine to paying customers.
Speaker 1:I think it was around January 2012. And then I did client work a lot of client work during the year of 2012. I did a whole bunch of client work in, like, the 2013, and then I stopped. And I thought I was done with client work. And keyword thought.
Speaker 1:So then I I spent a couple of months, like, oh, now I have all this extra work because I stopped client work or extra time because I stopped client work. Restaurant Engine was starting to grow. Was making some income. I I had accepted the fact in my mind, like, I'm gonna make less money this year because I'm still kind of in startup mode. And but, know, then I wasn't smart.
Speaker 1:Then I I had all this extra time and I should have put that time straight into Restaurant Engine and really grew that. And I did that to a certain extent, but then I got involved in another little side project here, another side project there, and now I'm a partner in another business, and now now I'm writing writing an ebook, and it's like, woah. Woah. Woah. Woah.
Speaker 1:Woah. Wait a minute. Now now everything is stagnating. Like, now my focus is spread too thin. And at this point, looking back in my story, I probably should have focused here rather than diversified with my newfound free free time now that I left client work.
Speaker 1:So that was the mistake there. But
Speaker 2:So why do you think that happened? Is it is it because I mean, all of us get distracted by new shiny objects, but was it because you you stopped doing climb work a little early? Like, Restaurant Engine hadn't gotten enough momentum to to to carry you through the transition?
Speaker 1:I think that could've that could've been it, but I could've made it. So the story was I I went back to client work in late twenty thirteen. And
Speaker 2:because wasn't it? It wasn't
Speaker 1:wasn't quite there, but it could have been there sooner had I not gotten involved in all these other side projects. Right. And It's tough. It's
Speaker 2:tough tough realization. It's
Speaker 1:Yeah. I'm trying to remember, like and part like, part of it could have been I I I left client work slightly too early, and I got distracted with other stuff. And then I do remember that we had, like, at home, we had a bill after unexpected bill come smack us in the face, you know, heating AC unit out, $8,000, you know. Gotta replace the water cooler, medical bills all popped up, and, like, all this random crap that I did not plan for Yep. Happened.
Speaker 1:And then my wife works in the schools, so so she's off in August and that always gets tight around that time. So so that happened. And then, know, by September, October, November, I I I knew, okay. I luckily, I had these years of client work to fall back on. I was able to kind of send a a couple of emails and within a month or two, I landed, know, three pretty high paying client jobs, which got us, you know, saved the day for for about three or three or four months there, and finished out twenty thirteen solid.
Speaker 2:Right. And that helped you bridge until Restaurant Engine was actually where it it needed to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. And during that time, I also removed these extra projects that I had that I'd taken on and I focused solely not solely, but half on these client projects that I took on. And then the other half on, okay, restaurant engine is, like, kind of halfway to where I need it to be. Now we now let's get it the full way.
Speaker 1:And by January 2014, I I finished I was able to cleanly finish my my final client project and and and take Restaurant Engine full time at that point. But, you know, we're in 2014 now, and, course, I just released an info product here in late twenty fourteen. And, you know, the the question is like, why did I do that? Right? Like, why didn't I kind of double down on Restaurant Engine?
Speaker 1:And this my my answer there is, again, it's that it's that slow gradual build with Restaurant Engine. Like, it's enough to it has replaced my client income, but I still need that I mean okay. Well, number one, I I decided to teach a course because I really truly enjoy teaching this topic and and writing. I love I love writing and and and the stuff that I do on the blog. And I've been committed to that over for over a year.
Speaker 1:And so there was that that was driving me, but then of course, you know, the reason why I'm monetizing it is need the cash flow to to to reinvest and and then grow this whole this entire business to the next level moving into 2015.
Speaker 2:Right. And and I think that characterizes this phase for a lot of us. First, it is fraught with peril. Right? Because a lot of things nobody can blame you for not wanting to do client work because it sucks or it mostly sucks or you at the very least you'd rather be working on the product.
Speaker 2:You know, I hadn't I went through the quicksand from a different direction. I launched Cardhook, with, you know, with money in the bank and I said, okay, I'm gonna I wanna get Cardhook to where, I want my income to be before my fuel tank goes below a certain level. And once it became obvious to me that that was not going to happen, I then dove in and started spreading my time with with client work and write the Banyan Tree Digital, the sales funnel service and then the the sales funnel course. So yeah, I'm doing I'm doing the same thing just from a different direction. Okay.
Speaker 2:Didn't work out exactly the way I wanted. Therefore, what are my options to augment the income? And I think that's it's not a bad place to be. Right? You're no longer employed.
Speaker 2:You're no longer trading time for money, but your product isn't quite there yet. So you need a way to add additional income without sucking all of your time from what you Right? I wanna be working on a car hook all the time because that's where I think the real potential is, you know, to be able to grow that and sell it for like, you know, a few million bucks. And that's what I wanna be working on but I don't have the right to do that financially. And so, you know, I think it's good to talk about some of the options that people have that that don't take up all of your time but that have the potential to bring an additional income.
Speaker 2:I think I think the info products are are a great a great way to do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And so about info products at this phase, and I think the reason why it really made sense for me this year, and it probably made less sense for me to do it last year, even though I did. Mhmm. This year, I have more experience. So, I had more experience to draw on as I write articles and as I write this course.
Speaker 1:And and I also had built Restaurant Engine to a point where it was able to replace my client income. And so, that freed me up to really focus on building my audience. Like, basically every Friday for the past year, I've been writing an article of some kind. And so I think now that again, since I've been on my own for years at this point, built a started to build a few things, it made sense that or the ability to build an audience now has has become easier for me. I think last year and and years prior might have been too soon for me to try to really monetize that.
Speaker 1:Like, now in at the 2014, if if I need a if I wanna if I wanna add a product, I went with an educational course rather than looking at a client project or or taking on some other or building some other type kind of product. Like
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And then and then the other pieces that I'm starting to look ahead trying to keep moving keep keeping the the momentum moving forward, I am trying to build something that is bigger than just my one SaaS product that I'm building. I I look to guys like Brennan Dunn and Rob Walling and and a few others in in our circles here that have built a a handful of different types of businesses and different products. Like, I I like that mix of having one SaaS recurring business and having one time down like, one off sale products, like an educational course or something. I like that having that different mix of of business models and diversifying that way. And I could see, you know, going into 2015, not necessarily launching additional products.
Speaker 1:Definitely, the focus will be growing those things, but really getting them systematized and running on their own so that later on, you know, I can look to diversify even further.
Speaker 2:Right. That's that's the ideal. That's the the online version of Rich Dad Poor Dad. Right? The if your passive income can replace your right.
Speaker 2:Your your necessary monthly expenses then that's the dream because then you can really focus anywhere you want. You can you can pick and choose. So I think the info product thing with an audience, that's the ideal. They're right there. The other versions of it, I think the most what comes to mind is, you know, that guy Sam Ovens.
Speaker 2:He's done a few interviews on Mixergy. So he was kind of in the same boat where he had a software product that was starting to work, but he needed to invest more money in it and he didn't have the money and didn't have money like, you know, fund his lifestyle. And he got into consulting after that, but he got into a consulting with a very defined goal. He needed to bring in consulting income but still have time to continue putting toward software. So that I think that's a bit easier than an info product especially if you don't have a blog and you don't have an audience that like most people don't, you can get into consulting and I think a great way to do it is to use your experience building your product.
Speaker 2:You know, I Yeah. That's how I learned about all this marketing stuff and sales funnels and auto responders while building CartHook and then you take that and you bring that credibility into your offering of I will help you build your autoresponder and sales funnel the same way I do for Cardhook and that's why I have credibility and that's why I'm gonna be good at it. Yeah. But this is a really tricky place to be. Especially if your product has a little bit of traction, it's so infuriating to not just go all the way in on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that is really, you know, brings us to the next phase when I think we all I know, I can't wait to only focus on one thing and that's phase four and I'm not there. But phase four, we're defining as you know, go big, double down and I think that is a group that's the goal. When you're doing all these different things and one of them presents themselves as the obvious winner. As thing that that you should Okay. Now, it's clear.
Speaker 2:It's time to go all in on this because this gives me the best chance at at getting to my goals.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, I think that I might have a little bit different
Speaker 2:We're into the diversification.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's why like so I put like go big slash multiply, you know. I think I I think it is about focusing on one business at a time, But the way that I see the next few years rolling out for me and and who knows what's really gonna happen. But Mhmm. You know, I I'd like to see my businesses grow and double and triple in in size each individually.
Speaker 1:But I'm also doing everything that I possibly can to make them run like a machine and run without me. And and then so that I can hold on to them as as income as little money machines. You know?
Speaker 2:Right. Then that that kick off money.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, you know, still, of of course, like, 2015 focusing mainly on restaurant engine and then the who knows the the next year after that, what whatever comes next. And just having a little portfolio and maybe selling one or two of these things off or keeping them, who knows? But like just that multiply effect. And I I love, you know, hearing what Rob Walling had to say in this when I interviewed him in one of the very first episodes of this podcast.
Speaker 1:You know, he's one of those guys who who has developed this, like, portfolio of little bootstrapped products. Some of them not so little anymore, but they add up to a a very large business. Every every time he starts something new, it's like, what can I start that will 10 x the previous thing? You know? And he and he kinda leverages the success from one into the start of of the next one.
Speaker 2:Yes. Now, I I but I have to, you know, in his case, I'm guessing that drip is more than 10 x ing anything else and that that is presenting itself as as where to double down, where to go all in.
Speaker 1:I I don't know what he's thinking with his future with Drip, but his pattern has always been like he like he could have done that with HitTel.
Speaker 2:I don't know if he could have.
Speaker 1:I don't I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 2:like Yeah. I think the SEO machine, the Google machine kind of stood in the way.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. But he made that he made it work after after that happened, you know? I I think
Speaker 2:Well, this is really a matter of strategy and like risk aversion because my goal isn't my goal isn't the diversification and having a few different income sources. My goal right now in my career is to go from this side of the line, and I define this side of the line as needing to worry about income to getting to the other side where the income, the money's in the bank, the family's cool, the college funds are funded, and now you can actually think about how to go about, you know, being a business person and and buying and selling assets and growing things and using other people's work and expertise as leverage to be, know, a business person. Someone who who owns and manages businesses as opposed to bills them yourself. And so I just wanna get to that side of the line. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so for me, I just wanna find the one thing that makes sense like if Carhook starts to go, you know, to 20 k a month and 30 and then 50, that will indicate to me, okay, this if this thing got to $25,000 a month, it can probably get to a 100. And if I can get it to a 100, then it's on a 1,200,000.0 run rate and I could probably sell the thing off for 2 and a half million bucks and that gets me to the other side of the line. To the, okay, honey, we're all good. You basically can't complain about what I do during the day And now let me go about using money as, you know, as the asset and leverage that that it can be and then and then nothing looks the same then as it does as it does now. So, yeah, maybe maybe that's a diversified, number of assets, but it's still all toward the same goal of, okay.
Speaker 2:So now I have three different assets and they're each bringing in 30 k a month and now I have people managing them and essentially, maybe it's not all in the bank, but you have crossed over to the other side where you can think, okay. Now what do I do with my time?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, I I think, you know, I I think myself and a lot of people have, you know, similar aspirations. I I guess, personally, I I don't even like to look that far down the line. I'm I'm still so focused on next year, three years, and, like, five years down the line, and and like the exact pieces that will have to fall into place and the things that I need to start doing now in order to get these things going in the right direction. So so that's what I'm thinking, know, in terms of like bootstrapping these things out and going from year to year and and keep growing.
Speaker 1:And I I think I think 2014 for me, you know, this is turning into one of those, big picture episodes, I guess. But as we near the end of 2014, I I feel like I've become a little smarter and and made wiser decisions this year than I did last year, and they're starting to pay off right now. And and, yeah, I'm just really excited about 2015 now because I think I put a lot of important pieces in place in 2014, you know, starting starting to grow the audience and also growing some some really solid systems in Restaurant Engine. And, excited to kind of see where those things go in 2015.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think it's amazing how a completely arbitrary day and a calendar that we just kind of had made up. You know, but it's still it's it's really powerful. It helps to orient your whole mindset and yeah, feel the same way. Look at the calendar, you know, look at the bottom right corner of my screen.
Speaker 2:I'm like, It's almost November. That means I have all of November and all of December. December And gets screwy because of the holidays so it's like I have six weeks to put things in place so that on January 1, I'm like proud of myself. I'm like, okay. I did the right things to set myself up for 2015, you know.
Speaker 2:So what if it's an arbitrary date? It's still Yeah. A very useful, marker.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Tomorrow, tomorrow I turn 32 years old. So that's also on my mind like like I've gotta, you know, figure this stuff out and make sure that I'm making the the right choices here, you know.
Speaker 2:Again, completely arbitrary numbers but but so so powerful. Yeah. Alright. Cool. So I think we can can call it a day.
Speaker 2:Yep. It's an interesting conversation and and we we move back and forth from these phases at different times in our career and all these different options and we look at other people and we judge ourselves based on what they're doing and maybe I should do this, maybe I do that. It's really a really challenging path, to go down, but you know, we're all just trying to get from where we are now, you know, further and further along the this journey we're talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And you know, I I know we we talk about trying to make these episodes more actionable. If I can leave this entire episode with one piece of actionable advice, here's what it is. Just slow down. Slow down.
Speaker 1:You've got all these phases, know, everybody wants to rush into the big SaaS. If you're if you're at the if you're in still in phase one, you've got to just, know, grind it out and not necessarily do things that you don't wanna be doing, but, you know, just there there's so many years to to work through these things.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I think that's that's good advice because generally speaking, things do not work out the way they do in an Excel sheet. And it takes longer and it's harder and it costs more and, yeah. That I think that's that's good advice. That's not the advice that, you know, automatically comes to my mind, but the truth is I probably could have used more of that advice over the past few years.
Speaker 2:So I think I think that's good. Take your time. Settle in. This thing is this thing is not an overnight thing. If it is overnight for you, hallelujah.
Speaker 2:But chances are that it's not. So, stay tuned to next week.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir. Alright. See you
Speaker 2:guys. See you.
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