Bootstrapped Web

Brian Casel: 00:09

This is Bootstrap Web episode 61. It's the podcast for you, the founder who learns by doing as you bootstrap your business online. I am Brian. And today, Jordan is not on today's show. He's actually out on vacation.

Brian Casel: 00:23

And I'm jealous because he's probably having a great time in in great weather, and I'm stuck here and buried under a couple of feet of snow in single digit weather up here in the Northeast. So yeah. I've got my friend Adam Clark on the show with me today, though. So, Adam, well welcome to the show, and thanks for thanks for joining me on on short notice.

Speaker 2: 00:44

Yeah, man. Thanks for having me. I'm glad we're finally finally doing it. We've we've had some scheduling issues here. I'm not under several feet of snow, but we did have, like, an inch or so

Brian Casel: 00:54

Did you?

Speaker 2: 00:55

Is which is still kinda basically, school has been out all week. So it's been it's been it's been chaos at home when when, you know, you're not used to the kids being home all day, every

Brian Casel: 01:07

You're in Tennessee. Right?

Speaker 2: 01:10

Yeah.

Brian Casel: 01:10

Yeah. So it's like one inch of snow, stop everything.

Speaker 2: 01:14

Pretty much. Yeah. If there's any it's not even that. If there's just a threat, then they they shut it down, basically. I don't know if it's because of the buses or yeah.

Speaker 2: 01:24

I don't know why, but, I mean, we don't we we usually drive the kids to school. They actually don't, ride the bus, but still, it's yeah. Whenever there's a threat of bad weather, it pretty much shuts down. It's not quite as bad as it was when we used to live in Atlanta. I mean, seriously, in Atlanta, it's insane, man.

Speaker 2: 01:40

There was a there was a editorial cartoon, one of my favorites. I this was like a couple decades ago, I remember. But it was just a picture of like, you know, a little kid who accidentally dropped a snow cone on the ground and then the whole city shut down.

Brian Casel: 01:56

Oh, of course. And

Speaker 2: 01:58

that that's kind of the way it happens. So, literally, if there's just any kind of even the slightest potential threat like it's it's as if it's as if, you know, we're in a zombie apocalypse

Brian Casel: 02:07

Yeah. Like at

Speaker 2: 02:08

grocery stores, everyone empties out the grocery stores and pulls up as if as if we're entering an ice age or something.

Brian Casel: 02:15

Yeah. Totally. I mean, my my wife works in the schools here, and she's been telling me how, like, they every year, they they cut down the amount of vacation days that we get up here. Like, like, there used to be a whole, like, a whole week long winter break in February. Now that's cut down to, like, a just like a two day long weekend.

Brian Casel: 02:32

Alright. Just because we get so many snow days every year that they're just like, alright. We need to, you know, stop taking days off and get them all in. Definitely. Cool.

Brian Casel: 02:41

So, you know, the theme for today's episode, of course, is podcasting. And I brought you on because I want you to tell me all the things that we're doing wrong here on Bootstrap Web. So for those of you of you who may not know, Adam Clark runs a, really great podcast, called the gently mad. I'm I'm a big fan of it. You guys should definitely check that out.

Brian Casel: 03:05

And, it's been interesting to to tune in, especially over the last few months because the gently mad is a couple years old, but you kind of rebooted it, recently. So why don't you tell us about that? Like, tell us, like, what what's what's the the gently mad? And by the way, we're all you know, later in the show, we'll also talk about your your course, which is launching pretty soon, like like this week or next week, called irresistible podcasting. So I'm really gonna pick brain on on all that stuff as well.

Speaker 2: 03:35

Yeah. Yeah, man. No. So the Gently Mad started a couple years ago. I've I've been a, you know, web designer, developer, guy, freelancer of various forms for, I guess, about six years or so, five or six years.

Speaker 2: 03:51

And two years ago, I just decided I wanted to do a podcast. There were people in the web industry that I wanted to talk to about web stuff, and the podcast was a good excuse to to talk to them. And so, I just started that show, but then over time, you know, as anything does, it it began to change. And last year was a really strange year. I guess, tour about this time last year, I launched a podcast network called goodstuff.fm with two good friends, Chris Enns and Tim Smith.

Speaker 2: 04:29

The three of us got together and launched this network, And I found my interests kind of moving more in the direction of podcasting. And the show had been successful in the sense that, you know, I had had some listeners, I mean, people seem to like it and oh, what was it? The you know, the the .net awards thing that they do? People in the web industry will be familiar with that. It was nominated for that.

Speaker 2: 04:57

So, mean, I there there were some you know, I guess I guess you you would definitely consider it a success but it wasn't by any means something that had this massive audience that I could make, you know, a living off of or anything and it didn't really occur to me at the time that that's what I wanted to do. But So, last year we started this network and, you know, through the course of doing that, it was last fall where it was just kind of a pivotal point where I was trying to decide what my future was and I didn't felt like I didn't feel like it was gonna be in in web design and development anymore. And I had ideas for the show had changed so much and I had ideas for how I wanted it to change and my interests were changing and a lot of things were changing. And so so, yeah, it was last fall probably October, November period when I just decided I wanted to make the show I wanted to make, and I wanted to make this course this course about podcasting. And I'm just the type of person, like, I if I have a plan b or if I give myself an out, then it's just never gonna get done.

Speaker 2: 06:08

You know, I've just gotta go all in or it's it's all or nothing. And so, I kind of, you know, I talked with my partners at Good Stuff and told them what I wanted to do and and so I decided to step down from that company and and they brought in another person and I kinda stepped out of like ownership of that company to pursue my own things Right. And I relaunched the show and and that is I mean, I could've just kept the show going but I felt like it was it was changing enough that I wanted to just have a clean start. And you would think I would've renamed it, but I just like that name and yeah. I just took with the same name and so

Brian Casel: 06:52

I remember you and I were we were talking about this, like, over the summer when when you were going through these these changes and thinking about what to do and all and all that stuff. And I I was a fan of the old show that gently mad one point o with, you know, which was kind of focused on web designers and developers and pretty well known figures in that industry. And then the reboot when we were talking about it, I wasn't even totally clear about what you had in mind in terms of the the rebooted version of the show. But now that I'm listening to the new one, I can see now all the differences that that you had been describing, and it's it's pretty clear. Right?

Brian Casel: 07:27

So I think, I mean, there are some web people on the new on the new show, but it's I mean, you've got all these different types of interesting people that you're interviewing. You do some solo shows and, you know, I mean, Seth Godin, you know, Michael Hyatt, Chase Reeves. I'm just thinking of names off that that I've been listening to.

Speaker 2: 07:48

Yeah. I mean, was that's the thing is that the old show was was very much web focused. It was a a show for the web industry, and and I could have changed it. I mean, people do that with podcasts all the time. It was just my personal choice to essentially start a new show even though it has the same name.

Speaker 2: 08:06

And and the whole goal was like this I mean, this new show is really the the Adam Clarke show. I mean, that's what it is but I didn't wanna call it that. I really liked the name that I had but that's different. Like, the the old show was really focused on the web. It was focused on the interviews.

Speaker 2: 08:21

It was focused on talking to specific people in the web industry about the industry and their work. And this new show was really just you know, sometimes there's just a time in life when you feel like you just there's just stuff you gotta do, you know. And anyone who's like a musician or an artist or a creative person of any sort, you know, there's those periods where you just there's just something in you you gotta get out. And that's and that's what this show was is, you know, I wanted to focus more on entrepreneurialism and business as a whole, but I felt like all the podcasts out there about business and entrepreneurialism were just so focused on like the the takeaways and the level ups and the Yes. You know, three steps to a million dollars and just a lot of sleaze and a lot of copycats.

Speaker 2: 09:17

And and I originally started making a show like that. I mean, last fall, I started down the road of making that kind of show. And it was also I started doing interviews for it, and and then I just realized, this is just more noise. You know? I mean, like, that's

Brian Casel: 09:33

that is that is what I like about your show. And and I think, you know, to a certain extent in in a very different way, I think. We we try to do that a little bit here on Bootstrap Web. Like, we get people, giving us feedback about, like, the I I feel like people really connect when we're sharing stuff that's, like, not working and things that we're struggling with and and the challenges and even getting into, like, the emotional, roller coaster that is, entrepreneurship. I think you really you really hit that, you know, right on.

Brian Casel: 10:04

And so

Speaker 2: 10:06

It was, you know, it was just a lot of things. I feel like it was it was a culmination of a frustration with a lot of things. Like I said, I started to make a show, and then I realized that it's just more noise. It's exactly the same thing everyone else is doing. And, you know, we live these lives where, you know, we we post photos to Instagram and statuses to Facebook and it's all very happy and positive and rosy and, you know, everyone is jealous of everyone else because we have these online personas that are just all, you know, the good things that are happening to us.

Speaker 2: 10:39

And, you know, like I say in the intro of my show, I just decided I wanted to do a show about business but not directly about business and I wanted to do it through through the the lens of what real life is like which is all the stuff that we don't talk about most of the time which is the failure and the self doubt and the constant struggle to make something meaningful and then to make money from that thing and, you know, just all that stuff and and so that's really what the show is about like it's not it is ostensibly about business but I think at the heart of it is my own existential struggle to find meaning and and that's what I try to get to with everyone I talk to is really, you know, how does one live a meaningful life? You know, what does that mean? And and how do we do work that is, you know, impactful and meaningful and also make money? Because it feels like you have to most of the time, have to do shitty work if you wanna make money. You know, you gotta wrap it in all this crap, you know, to sell something.

Speaker 2: 11:42

You can't do something real and authentic. And so it's about all those kinds of things. And and I just decided to dive in. I wanted to do it full time. I wanted to see if I could, you know, do my course and the show full time.

Speaker 2: 11:56

And Yeah.

Brian Casel: 11:57

And and, you know, it seems like you're, you know, with that, you you actually are doing that. And, you know, I've been listening since since the the turnaround of of of the reboot and it can you give us a sense of the kind of early, very fast kind of success that you've had with the new Gently Mad? I mean, in terms of, like, rankings or numbers or or, like, how would you even measure or or, like, in general, like, how do you measure the success of a of a new podcast?

Speaker 2: 12:23

Well, I mean well, first of all, just before I before I get to that is, you know, I just when I made when I set out to do this new one, I really did not think anyone would listen to it. It was one of those points where it's just kinda like, screw it. I'm gonna make the thing I want to make, and I don't care if anyone listens or not. You know? I really don't care.

Speaker 2: 12:43

Honestly, if if I'm the if it's just me and my mom well, my mom wouldn't listen because there's a lot of a lot of f bombs, which she doesn't like. But, you know, if no one

Brian Casel: 12:52

because she doesn't know how to listen to a

Speaker 2: 12:55

like, you know, I was just making this thing for me. I needed to make it. I wanted to say these things, you know. I'm someone who is constantly filled with self doubt and struggle and it's just this never ending existential angst and and search and and I wanted to talk about those things and I didn't think anyone would be interested in that. I thought everyone just wanted, you know, that that that kind of Tony Robbins, you know, very positive, you know, uplifting inspirational kind of business stuff.

Speaker 2: 13:26

And and so, I launched it was December I think it was December 26 or maybe that was when I announced the course. I don't know. It was like the week before Christmas, I think. And I think it was just I mean, obviously, there are things that I did that helped but I think it was just one of those right time, right place things where a lot of people were feeling the same thing. That no no one is no one is talking about how difficult all this is, just all the entrepreneurial shows out there.

Brian Casel: 13:58

But I mean, like, to give us sense, I mean, when I was listening in, I think I heard you say something, and this was like in the first three weeks or so. You know, I think you had something like 40 or 50 reviews in iTunes. You were on iTunes, new and noteworthy.

Speaker 2: 14:14

Is yeah. It just blew up. I mean, it literally blew up. I think within the first week of the show, I hit the number it was number two in overall business in iTunes. Only for like a day though.

Speaker 2: 14:27

I only had that for like a day.

Brian Casel: 14:28

But how does that happen? Let let's try to like fit, like Well how does that happen? What what pieces go in place that that lead up to that?

Speaker 2: 14:37

Well, no one knows, first of all. Who who knows like the Apple, you know, the Apple minions, like how they you know, the algorithms they use to promote podcasts or not. But what we do know is that it's a combination of of downloads and ratings and reviews and and those things happening quickly. Like, how do I how do I explain like, having a 100 downloads and a 100 reviews in one day is a lot better than having that much over a week. So, it's it's a combination of downloads, listeners, and reviews, and and how fast that stuff is happening.

Speaker 2: 15:13

And who knows like exactly how Apple decides, you know, but if they It seems like, you know, through a combination of those things, you know, that's how you get into new and noteworthy. And when you get into

Brian Casel: 15:25

Does, like, the frequency of publishing have anything to do with it? Or, when you yep. I frequency of publishing, but also when you submit a a brand new podcast, should you have four, five, 10 episodes uploaded all at once, or what's the best way to to launch?

Speaker 2: 15:44

Couple couple different questions. The frequency of publishing doesn't matter, I don't think, in terms of whether you get into a Noteworthy because you'll see shows in new and noteworthy that just have one episode, but they're just immensely popular. So it's really popularity. It's a popularity contest. But once you get into new and noteworthy, that's kind of prime real estate in iTunes, so that just exposes you to a lot more people and it can have kind of this compound exponential effect.

Speaker 2: 16:10

But the second

Brian Casel: 16:11

have stuff for like, if if you happen to get into new new and noteworthy, you wanna have a couple of episodes to give

Speaker 2: 16:18

definitely. You definitely wanna launch with a I mean, if we're gonna get technical here, like, you definitely wanna launch with multiple episodes in your RSS feed before you submit the show to iTunes. And the reason you wanna do that is because there's several benefits, but one of the benefits is if you have three shows in your feed and you submit it to iTunes, when someone subscribes to your show, it's gonna download all three of those shows instead of one. So, you triple your downloads, basically. Oh.

Speaker 2: 16:47

I never thought that way. Doing, you know, and that's why you have to have them in there before you submit your show to iTunes. Like, if you have one in there when you submit your show and then you add two more, it's still only gonna download that first one. So, if you have a few in there when you submit it, then when someone subscribes, they're gonna download all three of those and it's it's gonna your numbers are gonna be a lot higher. The other benefit is that, you know, if you're doing especially if you're doing an interview show or a guest based show, I don't like to call mine an interview show because it's really it's just it's more of a conversation.

Speaker 2: 17:19

But a guest based show, your first episode, may maybe it just, you know, it might not click with people, you know. And so if you launch with three or four or five episodes, you have a much greater chance that someone they're they're gonna find something in there that they do like. And Yeah.

Brian Casel: 17:37

And I found that personally with with podcasts, like, as a fan of of different podcasts, like, it it is that first impression that is so important, especially when you're just searching through, like, the the iTunes directory or whatever, like, just looking for new stuff. It's one thing if you hear someone that you know is doing a podcast or a friend is doing a podcast, you you'll give that a chance. But if you're just searching based on keywords or something, and, I mean, I found that if if the very first listen does not connect with me, there's really a a slim chance that I'll even think about looking at, like, a second or third episode, even though there's probably a lot of great stuff in there. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:17

And So that's that's why giving people, you know, multiple options there, you know, it's just it's the more entry points you can have into your podcast, just like any business, the more entry points you have, the better, you know, for people to get into it and like it. And so I don't know what happened with the show. I mean, I did do so I submitted with multiple episodes. You know, I knew reviews were important, so I I ran a contest. I wasn't sure about the contest, I was like, I don't know, it feels kinda sleazy to me, or like kinda market y, I mean, but, you know, whatever.

Speaker 2: 18:51

I decided to do a contest because I knew reviews would help.

Brian Casel: 18:54

Yeah. So, you were doing a contest to give It was a pretty generous giveaway. Right? And and that's

Speaker 2: 18:59

quite a bit of quite a bit of stuff, and and and that generated reviews of the show, and then the other

Brian Casel: 19:08

If I remember correctly, was it like, how did the contest work? What so someone enters the contest by just entering their email, or did they have to go on and leave a leave a review? I

Speaker 2: 19:19

had a page set up where I had, like, a PDF and a little video walk but what they had they had to do three things. They had to well, basically, two things. They had to subscribe to the show and leave a rating and review. And then the third thing is is, you know, get on the list. But the list wasn't the prime I mean, they they they had to give me like their contact information in some way in case they won.

Speaker 2: 19:42

So so it was that and But the thing even more than that, I think, is that I You you you have to ask people. You just have to ask people and you can't send out a mass email or a mass Facebook message saying, hey, would you go rate and review? Because no one Even if it's from a friend, if it's a mass thing, you know, no one responds to that stuff. So I, you know, I just spent it took hours. It was like a whole day, like, more than six hours.

Speaker 2: 20:10

But I sat down and I sent an individual email and Facebook message to every single person in my contact list, even people that I hadn't talked to in ten years from college. I just said, I'm launching this new thing. If you could click here and leave me a rating and review, I would really appreciate it or whatever, you know. But but I sent an individual message to people and those people responded. I mean, people respond to individual things and so it just you can't do a mass, you know, a Mailchimp email and ask people.

Speaker 2: 20:43

You'll get a very small percentage. But if you the time and and actually ask everyone in person, like, individually, oftentimes they'll do it. And so, that's how I got I think Yeah. Within the days, I think I had like forty fifty reviews, which was, you know, more than I ever had after two years of the other show. So And it was just because I I decided the contest and I asked people, you know?

Speaker 2: 21:09

That's awesome.

Brian Casel: 21:10

I mean, that I mean, it it really just goes to show how mean, how well you planned this whole thing. But, know, just on that point of, like, the the personalized ask. Right? So right now, I I think that applies to a lot of different things. So, like, right now, I'm I'm kinda passing around this I mocked up a landing page for a new project that I'm that I'm starting to work on.

Brian Casel: 21:34

It's not really public. I'll probably talk about it in a few weeks. But for now, I'm just I just wanna show it to a few friends and people that I trust, to give me their feedback on it. And what I what I could have done is I could have, like, put them all in the same email and said, hey, guys. Hey hey, friends.

Brian Casel: 21:51

Would you mind giving giving me some feedback on this? And or, like, would anyone give me give me some feedback on it? And what happens there when you're when you're speaking to a group is everyone tends to have this this this thought of like, oh, I someone else will probably reply to that. You know? But when you do the one on one and you personally reach out, you're gonna get feedback from every single person.

Brian Casel: 22:14

And that's so much more valuable because, I mean Yeah. I trust and respect each person individually, so I wanna hear from them. So that's just, you know, a little tip for whatever you're doing to get feedback on.

Speaker 2: 22:24

I just think, you know, people and I do the same thing. You know, if someone emails me personally and asks me to do something, then I'm very likely to do it. But if I just get, you know, a Mailchimp broadcast or something, I'm very unlikely to do it. And I don't know what what what the psychology behind that is, but, you know, we're just more inclined to do things for people when they ask personally. And so that so so, you know, you you want downloads and you want ratings and reviews.

Speaker 2: 22:50

And so, you know, those are a couple ways to to go about all that stuff I talk about in in the course too, but it's just that that that's a those are a couple strategies of launching with multiple shows and personally asking people, doing some sort of giveaway or contest in order to incentivize people who might not otherwise do it but then they get in there, then they find that they like it. You know, sometimes you have to kinda, you know, I don't wanna say bribe people, but you know what I mean. You you have to kind of offer them something. You know that they'll like this once they're in here, but, you know, you have to kinda lead them in a little bit. And so Yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:28

I still don't know the effectiveness. I don't know if the contest I don't know what was more effective, the contest or just the the personal emails. But, I got a lot of reviews and a lot of downloads and that's what kind of, you know, within the first week, I was in the top of new and noteworthy and all my cat well, that's the other thing I forgot to mention is that iTunes lets you put your show in multiple categories, up to three categories and then three subcategories. And a lot of people launch a podcast like a business podcast, so they just pick business, you know? And that's a huge competitive pool, you know?

Speaker 2: 24:06

And I picked business and then the subcategory careers, and then I picked arts and subcategory design, and I picked technology and the subcategory podcast because I knew, you know, all those things related. And again, I'm so so suddenly now, when someone goes and clicks on podcast and then they click on technology or arts or business or any of those categories, they see my show at the top of doing a noteworthy, not in just one of those places.

Brian Casel: 24:33

And I guess the title and and the description of the show also play into it? Like the like the keywords and and that sort of thing or or not so much?

Speaker 2: 24:42

I think that there is something to the SEO there of people searching for things. I'm not an SEO expert, I don't know. But I know that a lot of people just pick one category for their show. And why I mean, you might as well take advantage of if iTunes is gonna let you pick three, then those are just two other places that your show is gonna show up and potentially find new listeners. So Yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:03

Totally. All three of those things are the In fact, I've got a video in the community for the course, like the three things you the top three things you have to do before you launch a podcast, and it's what I just told you, you know, the launch of multiple shows, the personal ask for the ratings and reviews, and the, you know, choosing all the categories you can. Nice. Those those things, you still may not, you know, have a successful podcast, but those are things that can help you.

Brian Casel: 25:32

Well, I can tell you that when I launched this podcast over a year ago, I got all three of those things wrong. And, and I I guess the the show kinda suffered for it. We did not get on the new or no no, or they were, you know, struggled to get ratings and reviews forever. So, yeah. I mean, so awesome awesome stuff there.

Brian Casel: 25:54

Alright. So, like, the other thing that I'm thinking about here is, you know, especially since the new show, but even with the old one, you you you've had a really great consistency of of publishing schedule and just really staying on top of it in terms of, like, getting these episodes recorded and published and like a machine. And I know it's kind of just you doing this, but it it's really produced it like it's like, there's a whole team behind it. I mean, the question that I have here is because I know that there are so many new podcasters out there, and my I was definitely in this group about a year ago in the first 10 to 20 episodes of Bootstrap web where it was like, you know, I'm I'm not getting so many listeners and I'm not getting any reviews yet. You know, recording every single week and editing it myself.

Brian Casel: 26:46

It's a it's a grind. There's a lot of work. And is this even worth it? Like, why should I even continue on? Like, how do you push through and and keep and stay motivated to stay on schedule and and, like, not let everything else kinda crowd out the the little podcast that you're trying to start up.

Speaker 2: 27:02

I mean, I still feel that way every day. I mean, every day is is still, like, why am I doing this? Is it does it even matter? You know? And I don't know.

Speaker 2: 27:12

For some people, I just don't think that goes away. But I just decided I was going to go all in with it no matter what. And, you know, I I went from doing a one once a week show to this this new show is three times a week. And, you know, the one thing I did is, you know, I recorded a bunch of episodes before I launched. So, you know, I had a buffer.

Speaker 2: 27:34

You know, I didn't wanna launch a three times a week show and only have three three episodes recorded, you know. So I had, you know, at least, you know, six weeks worth of episodes recorded before I launched.

Brian Casel: 27:48

Wow.

Speaker 2: 27:48

So that that's helpful. But but again, I just went in I I went all in with it. I went in thinking I'm gonna do this full time, have this in the course. So I I just I quit doing the other stuff. I just decided one day in November, okay, I'm not I'm Client work over.

Speaker 2: 28:06

I'm done. You know? And, of course, I still had a couple projects that weren't wrapped up and still aren't wrapped up, which are driving me a bit crazy but but I just I just it was it. I was like, okay, I'm stopped. I'm not doing this anymore and this is what I'm gonna do.

Speaker 2: 28:21

And and I didn't really have a plan, you know, I just thought I'm gonna try this. And if it doesn't work and it fails, then I'll go back to web designer. I'll figure out what's next. But

Brian Casel: 28:35

Yeah. It's that it's that, like, ongoing Yeah. Struggle to transition from the client work into into doing something like products and

Dan Norris: 28:43

I feel

Speaker 2: 28:43

like I had to

Brian Casel: 28:44

doing do doing a show like that. So Yep. I know so many of us kinda struggle with that. It took me years to to really phase out the the client work and and things.

Speaker 2: 28:53

But See, I'm that's the thing, though, is that I'm just not a phaser. I can't I can't phase things. It's just you know, and that's

Brian Casel: 28:59

I I sense that about you. You're I'm

Speaker 2: 29:01

not I'm not saying that's Yeah. I'm not saying that's positive. I'm not recommending people do that because it is pretty risky, to just dive all in. But that's just the only way I can do things, you know, and but that's definitely not always the you know, one thing Seth Godin said on the episode, where he talked to me, he was like, you know, if you have to burn down your house every time you build a new one, you're not an architect, you're a hack, you know. And I was like, oh, maybe I'm a hack, you know.

Speaker 2: 29:28

Because that's kinda what I do is that, you know, I just go all in and

Brian Casel: 29:33

Well, one thing that you did to kind of, you know, you know, do that make a a smart transition there is you kinda pre sold the course, which seems to have been going really well. And and I wanna definitely get into that the the the course launch and and Yeah. The the course in a minute. But before we get there, just a couple more questions about about how you run the podcast. You know, one one thing that I that I'm really impressed with with what you do is is, like, the planning of of content.

Brian Casel: 30:02

And that's, like, planning interviews, booking interviews, doing your solo shows, recording the intro and the outro and the music, and and, it just it all feels like it's professionally done, but it's also, like, I know how much work goes into the content and just the planning of topics and questions. So, like, when it comes to planning interviews, how do you go about doing that? Like, do you I know that your your interviewing style, and I know it's not even really interviewing, it's more like conversations. But do you go into a new guest with a plan or a list of of points that you might cover, or is it totally open ended, see where this goes?

Speaker 2: 30:42

It depend mostly, it's totally open ended, but it depends. Sometimes there are like, last week or the week before, whatever episode it was with Pat Flynn, I I knew what I knew what I wanted to talk about with him. And I I wanted to talk about the fact that this whole online business content marketing world is there's this whole dark underbelly to this world of I mean, just flat out liars and con men, con people and and I had no idea when I got into it and, you know, he seems to stand above that and and and maintain a reputation for someone who is honest and and has integrity. And so, I knew going into that conversation that that was something that I wanted to talk about with him. But other than that, I didn't have any other plan.

Speaker 2: 31:33

Like I said, with every guest, it's it's almost Adam's therapy hour, really. I mean, it's it's whatever I'm dealing with in the moment is what I wanna talk to those people about and and that changes. But it almost always revolves around, like I said, these topics of meaning and purpose and work and life and because it's all intertwined, you know, life and work is not separate. Know, people talk about life work balance and it's just I mean, there's no such thing. It's all mixed up together.

Speaker 2: 32:04

It's just all just this big blender of stuff and So how do we how do we navigate all this stuff and Right. So that's what I go into every conversation with, you know.

Brian Casel: 32:15

Got yeah. I mean, I I mean, I I hear that in in your conversations. I mean, this kinda comes back to the episode that I did with Andrew Warner a couple months back where I interviewed him about how he does interviews, you know, and and he Yeah. Gave a

Speaker 2: 32:28

lot of that episode.

Brian Casel: 32:29

A lot of really good insights there. So, I mean, I'm wondering in in your experience, I I know it's very open ended and kind of casual conversations and and it's it very much plays into what you're interested in in the moment. But do you do anything to kinda keep the just keep the conversation not on track? Like, not not necessarily on topic, but just, like, do you have a sense for, like, when a conversation is might be getting a little bit boring or when it might be just getting Yeah. You know, sidetracked?

Brian Casel: 33:01

Like, what your audience is is hungry for? And, like, how do you get the guest back on on track?

Speaker 2: 33:08

Well, I don't think well, first of all, I am not the I'm I'm not the person to model yourself after for doing interviews. Because like I said, what I I I don't do interviews. I mean, it's it really is just a a conversation. And I think some guests are a little thrown by that, especially the more famous people, you know, they're not used to come they're used to coming on and being asked a series of questions and being allowed to talk and and they get on my show and I talk just as much, if not more than they do, and I think that surprises them a little bit. But it really is just a conversation.

Speaker 2: 33:41

And, you know, there's been an episode or two that I recorded and I knew within ten minutes that I wasn't gonna release this episode. It just wasn't it it wasn't You know, it just wasn't clicking. But How

Brian Casel: 33:53

often does that happen?

Speaker 2: 33:55

It's only happened once or twice so far ever. So, you know But it's it's, you know, I'm recording episodes, you know, I record multiple episodes a week with guests. Not quite every day but almost every day, I'm I'm doing an episode. And it just I I guess I guess maybe there is some I like talking. I've always liked talking with people.

Speaker 2: 34:24

So maybe there is some natural just sort of conversationalist talent there. I don't know. I I I don't really have a method or a process. It's just

Brian Casel: 34:38

I don't think there there is like a gut natural skill in this. I mean, and I think you have it for sure. You know, like, I mean, I I listen to guys like, I I know that you're a huge, like, Mark Marron fan, as am I. Howard Stern, I've been a fan of for years. I I think he's he and Mark Marron, and guys like Andrew Warner and and like Charlie Rose.

Brian Casel: 35:00

I I've always just been fascinated with, the art of of giving an interview, but also just putting on a program, you know, because I like, listening to Howard Stern, it's like he has this sense. He knows the exact moment when a a bit or when a conversation with a guest gets gets just like slightly boring, and he knows exactly when to when to turn it. Mark Marron, same way. Like, he knows when a guest is getting off track and we need to get back to the story.

Speaker 2: 35:27

I guess there are things like that. I mean, there are moments that I try to bring out. Like, love it when I when there's the guest is talking and then they'll be like, you know, man, I I can't believe I'm talking about this, or I didn't think I would ever talk about this. You know, I shoot for those kinds of moments for them to be talking about things that they don't normally talk about. And and and, yeah, if I feel like it's it's kinda going, you know, nowhere or I don't know, I mean, yeah, I I I guess I do I I can sense that and just kind of, you know, keep it keep it moving.

Speaker 2: 36:04

But I think I I don't know. Also, that's the other thing is that I do long form the other thing when I started the show is I thought, I'm gonna break every podcast rule that there is, you know, because there's all these rules. And the whole point was to prove to people that there are no rules and you can do whatever you want with this thing. But so I have a long form show. I mean, it's often ninety minutes, sometimes two hours.

Speaker 2: 36:30

I do long intros, ten, fifteen minute intros. You know, now that I've got sponsors, my sponsor reads are three to five minutes long, you know, it's it's multiple times a week and it's it's there's a lot of personal stuff in there. Like, do all the things that podcast quote teachers or professionals would say, this is you don't do these things if you wanna have a successful podcast. But that's why I said I think it was just right time, right place, you know? People connected with the with the authenticity of it, I think.

Brian Casel: 37:01

And that's what I love about podcasting in general. It's it it is I I don't wanna say that the Wild West of of I mean, it is, kind of. But but it's also, like, right now, I I feel like it's getting that that momentum finally, you know. Yeah. Like, I feel like it's finally starting to break break out.

Brian Casel: 37:20

I mean, it's nowhere near what, like, the potential that it could reach, I think. But

Speaker 2: 37:24

I mean, what I what I found was that, you know, once once all these people showed up, I started to get really worried because and then I started to think, you know, because I would do an interview and I'd feel like, oh, that sucked. All I asked were stupid questions and no one's gonna wanna hear about that. And and and then what I realized was most of my audience are people just like me, so they have all the same questions I have. So Yeah. You start to go down a very slippery road when you start making something for your audience.

Speaker 2: 37:55

Like, gonna make I I think this is what the audience wants, you know. And, what I've done is just, if it's what I want, then I've a pretty good bet that it's what they're gonna want. And so Right.

Brian Casel: 38:07

You're gonna attract people that identify with with you and voice.

Speaker 2: 38:11

Right. And so and so that's why I just I made the show that I wanted to make and and it's I make no bones about it in the very beginning. I mean, even my intro, even though it's kind of a joke, say, hey, this show's all about me. So if you don't you know, that's just what it is, you know, plain and simple. And I, you know, I've had one negative review, you know, and I read that on the show, because I read reviews on the show and had a little fun with that one.

Speaker 2: 38:38

But over I mean, people have been overwhelmingly positive and that's what I didn't expect is just the volume of email, the volume of like people saying, you know, it's so encouraging that, you know, that I'm not alone and and then that's what I realized is that most people are filled with self doubt and fear, but no one talks about it, no one wants to be the one to stand up and say, this is who I am and, you know, be the first one to do that. So, I think that's where the response has mostly come from.

Brian Casel: 39:10

Very true. So how do you go about booking guests? I mean, number one, how do you book big name guests? Right? Like, you just cold email them?

Brian Casel: 39:20

And how does that even work? And, and then what's your process for, like, organizing your editorial calendar and getting people, you know, booked in and and putting out shows? And is there a method to, like, the order of putting out shows? Or how does all that work?

Speaker 2: 39:35

I'm at the point where, like, I really need a VA really bad, but I don't have one and I don't have the time to I don't even know how to find one. I know there are ways, but I don't have the time to do that. But, I really need help with that kind of stuff because it takes, you know, so long. I mean, you wouldn't believe, you know, how many hours, and but that's just because I'm obsessive that way, you know. I spend four hours editing one show because Like,

Brian Casel: 39:59

I know that, like, in the early days of Bootstrap, right before Jordan joined, it was very much an interview show, and I struggled to, I didn't really have trouble reaching out to people and get and booking interviews. It was just the time of booking interviews. Yeah. And and staying on top of it and making making sure, oh, do I have someone for next week? Do I have someone for next week?

Brian Casel: 40:18

And Yeah. Like, how do you stay on top

Speaker 2: 40:20

of that? Well, one thing, like I said, I recorded a bunch ahead, and so I try to stay ahead. You know, I I stay well ahead. So I've always got if I just stopped recording interviews today, then, you know, the show could go on for another month or two, you know, before I would be, hurting or something like that. Now right now, I have less of a buffer than I usually have because this course has been taking a lot of time.

Speaker 2: 40:44

But first thing I did was just I use an app called Calendly, which is similar to ScheduleOnce. There's a few of them out there, and it integrates with my Google Calendar. And because the hardest thing was is like, okay, are you available this time? No. Are you available that time?

Speaker 2: 41:00

No. Can we do it this time? You know, that back and forth takes so much time but with with something like Calendly, what I can do is it integrates with my calendar and it knows what's available and what's not, time slots are available. So I just sent I just email people and I send them a link. I say, you're interested, here's a link where you can pick a time that works for you.

Speaker 2: 41:20

And they click that link and it shows them all the available times on my calendar over the next three months and they can just pick one. And it goes right on my calendar and and then we don't have to have that back and forth. And so, with bigger name people, they just don't have the time to do that back and forth. And Yeah. The fact that it's short, it's just like they can click the link and do that.

Speaker 2: 41:40

I think that's part of it.

Brian Casel: 41:43

The big so the like the bigger name people or anyone really, like, you just do you just kinda like find their contact form or do you get an introduction or how does that work?

Speaker 2: 41:54

Sometimes it comes through Twitter. Sometimes it's just sometimes it is filling out a contact form. Like, with Merlin Mann, I I filled out his contact form, but I never got a response. So I tweeted at him and said, hey. I filled out your contact form, but I don't know if you ever got it.

Speaker 2: 42:07

And and then that's when he said, you know, he responded and said, well, just email me here. And something like that happened. Mhmm. With Seth Godin, I just emailed him, and I tried to be creative with my email, and I don't remember exactly what I said, but but I just asked. I just asked.

Speaker 2: 42:25

And that's the thing is that most people just They don't ask because they don't think that the person would ever say yes, and so they just don't ask. And and that's all I do is just ask. And and and the and the thing is though, once you have someone like Seth Godin on your show, then you can use that to get other people on that level on your show. If you're going to if you're going if you're wanting to have famous people on your show, then it's just it's kind of like you build one on top of the next. But Yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:55

As far as like releasing, you know, the calendar releasing, you know, I have a folder with all these interviews and I they're not in any order, you know. I I don't release them in any kind of order. Like, some episodes some episodes I'll record and I release it the next day because it was just that good and I feel like that's what I wanna say tomorrow. And then I'll have episodes that I record and I don't release for two months. And I think excuse me.

Speaker 2: 43:24

I think I think that actually makes the show feel almost a little bit more themed because usually, I'm picking it up I'm picking the episodes to release that week that relate to how I'm feeling that week, you know? And

Brian Casel: 43:40

And and from what I gather, your intro section is kind of real time. Right? Like, it's

Speaker 2: 43:47

The intro is all yeah. The intro I record, like, the well, I I I push episodes out, like, at 3AM, so I'm recording it, like, the night before. On Sunday night, Tuesday night, and Thursday night, basically, are are evenings that I'm editing together the next day show, and that's when I record the intro for that show. So, yeah, the intros are never prerecorded. But but the episodes

Brian Casel: 44:11

But the intros are like, you know, you can reference things from, this week and saying,

Speaker 2: 44:16

like Exactly.

Brian Casel: 44:16

Yeah. You know? Gotcha. And so just like a quick tech question. You're you're releasing did you say you're releasing shows at 3AM?

Speaker 2: 44:25

I just schedule them to

Brian Casel: 44:28

Like, is is there an optimal time of day to publish an episode?

Speaker 2: 44:32

No. I just want it to be there in the morning when people wake up in their in on their commutes or whatever. You know, I just want it to be so it's Monday, Wednesday, Friday show. So I want it when they get up in the morning, whatever time they you know, some people are up early on the road and some people are later, but I I always publish it like usually between midnight to three the night before so that it's it's available just it's available in the morning.

Brian Casel: 44:59

Gotcha. Cool. So let's talk a bit about irresistible podcasting, your your course that's coming out. What I well, I mean, the and by the way, you can learn more about this at avclark.com/course. I was just taking a look at the landing page again, and it's I just love the whole design of of your redesign on a b Clark.

Brian Casel: 45:19

I think it's it's it's really awesome. Nice and clean. The course looks great. What I I wanna ask I mean, obviously, the course is about podcasting, but what is the what's, like, the overall message that you're trying to get across in in this course? Like, if there's one big idea that that your students are gonna take away from irresistible podcasting, what are you trying to teach here?

Speaker 2: 45:42

How to create irresistible podcasts.

Brian Casel: 45:44

Well, there you

Speaker 2: 45:45

go. You heard it good first, but I mean, like the tagline on the website says, you know, what's the difference between, you know, a podcast that's the shit or one that's just shit, you know, and that's there's a difference. And you can you can kinda tell a difference when you listen to a show, If it's really good or if it's not, and and what's the difference between those things. And I didn't wanna just make a technical, here's how to start a podcast, you know. I wanted to get into stuff like, you know, defining goals and defining audiences and, you know, how to create engaging content and what is what is that?

Speaker 2: 46:23

What does that look like? And, you know, all sorts of stuff that's beyond just here's what mic you get and here's how you plug it into your computer and here's what software you use. I mean, all that's there but I really wanted to get into the the the the why of podcasting. Yeah. And I feel like if you don't know that, I feel like if you don't know the why of your show, then you're gonna have a you're gonna quit, basically.

Speaker 2: 46:48

You're gonna quit when it gets hard. And if you do know the why, then when it gets hard, you'll you'll be able to make a strategic decision to either quit or go forward. And so, you know, don't want people just to launch shows just because, oh, this is the hot new thing and that's what most people do is they launch shows and they get five or six, seven episodes in and then they quit. Most people quit. And Yep.

Speaker 2: 47:12

And I think if you know some things before you get into it, you're gonna have a much better chance of not quitting or quitting strategically as Seth Godin would say.

Brian Casel: 47:22

Yeah. Totally. And I I think as a fan of podcasts, it it really helps, you know, as you're creating a podcast to to just be involved in this, I don't know, like, podcast culture or, like, the Yeah. You know, the ecosystem. Just understanding, like, what works on different shows.

Brian Casel: 47:40

And, like like, I listen to 10 or 20 different shows regularly, and and and they're all very different for different reasons, and and they're all great in different ways. And I and I love just kinda hearing about how different productions are are put together and how different styles of the way people do it. And, you know, I think that that has a a real big influence on on how we create our show and and and like the the space that we try to fit within, you know. And I think what you're doing with with irresistible podcasting is is awesome because, again, like this whole world of podcasting is so it's not new because it's been around, but it's it's gaining that momentum. And we still need teachers and and direction and and ideas.

Brian Casel: 48:26

And, I mean, I hate this term, but, like, thought leaders to to try to help not necessarily, like, preach, this is the way to do it, but just just to offer different perspectives and some some kind of guidance or or even just inspiration to get into this whole world of podcasting.

Speaker 2: 48:43

Well, and I would say it is there's some strategicness to it as well because I know that. I mean, I know that podcast is exploding, and it's only gonna get bigger. I mean, we saw the same thing happen with blogging, you know, a dozen, twelve, thirteen years ago. I mean, it's gonna happen with podcasting. And so there are other podcasting courses out there.

Speaker 2: 49:02

But if when podcasting explodes and when someone creates the blogger of podcasting and suddenly everyone and their mom has a podcast and there's, at that point, 15 courses available and mine's one of them, I mean, that's a great position to be in. Admittedly, part of this is strategic in that I know this is gonna happen, it's gonna explode and people are gonna be wanting to learn how to do it. And And

Brian Casel: 49:28

I think the more courses, the more education there is about it, the the more attractive it is for more people, obviously, to get into podcasting and then that also feeds into more listeners and that Mhmm. Benefits all of our podcasts. Right? So it's it's just that I I I'm I'm such a strong proponent of podcasting in general. I try to tell people that I mean, the problem still today is that it doesn't reach the mainstream because it's too hard to figure out.

Brian Casel: 49:56

Like, my dad emailed me a week or two ago asking, like, how do I listen to podcasts? Like, what what app do I need to download? How do I do this? It's still not so simple that anyone can do it.

Speaker 2: 50:06

It's not there yet, but it's gonna happen. I mean, it will happen. Like I said, it's eventually, you know, I don't know if it'll happen in a year or two years or maybe even less than a year or it might be five years. Who knows? But

Brian Casel: 50:18

And as they get more and more into cars.

Speaker 2: 50:20

Yeah. You know, it is gonna happen. And so, for me, I just I I really love the medium. I mean, I had a whole career in journalism before I was in the web, and and so just the idea of making podcasts and just talking for a living is something that really appeals to me. And so, you know, I'm a big fan of podcasts and and I wanted to make this course and it just Yeah.

Brian Casel: 50:46

And so how did the how's like the prelaunch gone so far?

Speaker 2: 50:51

It went really well. I mean, that blew me away too. I mean, again, I I didn't have any sort of audience, a very small list. I've I had never released a single you know, that that was that's part of the story here is, again, that, you know, people you can do stuff. If you get creative with how to do things, you can accomplish things that you don't think you can accomplish because, you know, again, I had no audience, I had never released any sort of content whether podcast, blog, YouTube, any form of podcast educational material.

Speaker 2: 51:24

I just happened to have a podcast and I put up this landing page for the course. And then seven days later, I opened it for presale and I used, you know, a fairly creative way to sell it, which now everyone is calling a bump sale, which is, you know, it started at a dollar and the price went up a dollar with each purchase. And I hope I had it open for like it was just before Christmas, which is a stupid time to launch anything. But but it still went really well. I mean, I think I think that first week just over Christmas, you know, I made like $5 and and and through the whole through the whole, you know, presale, I ended up, you know, making just under $10,000.

Speaker 2: 52:08

And the point was I wanted to try pre most people make a product and then sell it, and I wanted to see if I could fund the creation of the product and not just Yeah. Make the money on the other end once it's created. And so so it's an experiment. I mean, and that's the thing with this show and all the stuff I'm talking about, like, don't set myself up as an expert or anything. I'm just an experimenter.

Speaker 2: 52:32

I'm just trying things, like, I'm literally just winging it, and I'm just seeing what this will work, or I wonder if that'll work, or I wonder how this will work, and

Brian Casel: 52:39

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:40

And just trying stuff.

Brian Casel: 52:41

And And so, I mean, what have you learned so far in this whole process of creating a course and the prelaunch? And I guess we're just what are we? Like a couple days away now from the official launch date?

Speaker 2: 52:51

No. It's actually the launch my show tomorrow, it's gonna be an interesting show. It's gonna be a kind of a combination show with Justin Jackson's Build and Launch, which he has been kind of chronicling the creation of this course over the last week. But but the launch is the launch date is gonna be delayed a little bit. I don't know exactly yet.

Speaker 2: 53:13

I'm deciding that tonight and tomorrow, like, what the new launch date will be because a lot has happened. Like, just a lot a lot of stuff has happened. Listen listen to episode 33 of the gently mad if you wanna know about that. But

Brian Casel: 53:31

Will do. And Justin Jack's new new building launch is really great as well. I've been into that. But, yeah, like, what what have you kinda learned now in this in this process of of building the course? As I understand it, this is like the first course that you've that you've done.

Brian Casel: 53:44

Right?

Speaker 2: 53:44

Oh, yeah. First thing. First time I've ever tried this.

Brian Casel: 53:48

Cool.

Speaker 2: 53:48

One thing I would say is that it's a lot more work than you think it will be. So I should have taken Justin's advice in the beginning and start with something small. Start with something that you can accomplish quickly, you know, that you could create and release in a week or two, and don't I try to make this always Yeah.

Brian Casel: 54:10

Skip that advice as well. And I tell myself, next time I'm going to do something small, and then Yeah. I overdo it.

Speaker 2: 54:15

So I so I created this huge thing, and and then that creates a lot of stress because, you know, I pre sold it, so now I've got to do it. And and so I think I think one thing I've learned is that, you know, start small and and, you know, break things into small chunks when it comes to course creation. The other thing I've learned is that, again, there are no rules just because a certain, you know, it's very popular these days to, you know, sell things in tiers. You know, you got your low tier, your middle tier and your high tier. And people have written a lot about that and why that's advantageous.

Speaker 2: 54:56

I'm not doing that. I've got one tier and it's expensive, you know. It's it's $500, you know. It's not it's not a cheap thing and it's doesn't have multiple levels. And

Brian Casel: 55:08

I've gone back and forth on that myself with with the productized course. For a while, it was the one tier. I mean, essentially, it is the one tier. And the reason why I I kinda like that and I I do know all the benefits of the the tiered pricing and price anchoring and giving different options for different people. Right?

Brian Casel: 55:27

But I I think all the different components of the course are so essential in different ways, and they work together in different ways. And I guess it's it's probably, you know, similar to what you're building there with

Speaker 2: 55:37

with your is a video course, but it's essentially a book. It's like chapters of a book. I mean, you can't you couldn't really say, well, for a lower tier, you can have the first chapter. The first chapter is not gonna get you anywhere. You know?

Speaker 2: 55:48

I mean, it's really one thing builds on the next, builds on the next, builds on the next. Like, it's you need the whole thing. And and also, it's an experiment. I'm just you know Another thing people tend to do who haven't done it before is we think small. Like, we don't think, I can never make a course that costs $500.

Speaker 2: 56:06

I mean, just, you know, that's just way, you know, I I could only do like a $99, you know. But business people think really, really big. So, at the same time as the first advice was start with something small, I realize that sounds contradictory but the other part is don't think small, you know. I mean, make big goals because if your goal is to make $10 or or, you know I mean, if your goal is to make $20,000 this year, there's a chance that you'll make it. But if your goal is to make a million dollars this year, you're probably not gonna make a million, but you're probably gonna blow way past 20,000.

Brian Casel: 56:44

So Yeah. That's a great point. We we really did a deep dive into this in in a previous episode on on thinking big. But, like, I I've struggled a lot with that myself over the years, especially when it comes to pricing, You know? Because I I think the the common, tendency is to price something based on what what we personally would be willing to pay for it.

Brian Casel: 57:05

And, of course, that that that has changed over time as well. But then, I mean, you really need to think about your market and and the the value that you're that you're pricing based around.

Speaker 2: 57:14

Yeah. And and that's it is difficult. It's hard to charge a high price when you feel like, well, everyone knows this stuff. But the problem is everyone doesn't know this stuff, you know? Right.

Speaker 2: 57:23

Like the stuff I told you about launching with multiple shows and feeds and, you know, stuff like that. All that stuff seems like common sense to me but, you know, I was on the phone with a guy a couple last week who that's his job is to he does social media marketing and charges a lot of money for it. And I was telling him some of those iTunes things and his mind was just blown by it. He didn't even know any of that. And so that's the other thing is that you tend to think what you know, everyone knows and it's just not true, you know.

Speaker 2: 57:52

People don't know the things you know. And so Yep. And so, yeah. You you can make something that is valuable to people and you can think big and charge what you think it's worth and but it's all an again, it's an experiment, man. I don't know how it'll go.

Speaker 2: 58:09

My my I don't know how it'll go. My plan for 2015 is to sell this course essentially full time. I mean, this is this will be the main I have like four different income streams this year, but this will be the main one. But I don't know if

Brian Casel: 58:21

it'll mean, that that was actually my final question for you here is like, what what are you looking ahead to? You know, once the course comes out, looking into 2015, is is it really just gonna be like the gently mad and this course, and that's kind of your primary focus, or any other kind of big plans or ideas for the year?

Speaker 2: 58:38

There's so many things that have opened up as a result of, like, the success of the gently mad and of the course and things that, you know, are opportunities that wouldn't have been there before. So I don't know, honestly. I went into the year thinking it was gonna be those two things, and I don't know how the year will finish out. But, and I've already got ideas for lots of other courses I would like to make, but I don't think I'm gonna do that. I think I'm going to, at least for now, that's what I tend to do is I just jump from one thing to the next, and and that's a problem for me and I need to not do that.

Speaker 2: 59:14

And so I'm forcing myself to stick with the gently mad and stick with this course and just keep selling it over and over again every month, every week until I feel like, you know, okay, I've stuck with something, you know, for a good amount of time. And Yep. But I don't know. Who knows? I mean, like I said, it you know, the bigger something gets, it it definitely opens doors and so things could change.

Speaker 2: 59:39

But that's the plan right now is to I've got a couple other podcasts that will launch. I'm definitely gonna do that but the main the main focus will be the gently mad and then the course And who knows what could happen with the course? Everyone is asking for a community. Everyone seems to want a community. I don't know if the course will evolve into I can tell you community.

Brian Casel: 01:00:00

But that was something with the productized course. I thought it would just be like a little side thing that I'll tack on at the end. That's been like the most popular part of it. And Yeah. And even even for me too, like, the to to see that evolve and and and and being so active in there.

Brian Casel: 01:00:16

Like, people are forming their own mastermind groups within the community and everything. Like, I you should, at at the very least, do like a private Facebook group or something, you know. It's Yeah. I know. I

Speaker 2: 01:00:26

do have that for the people that prepurchased. And so, yeah. To answer your question, I don't know. I have some ideas, but it's I'm less sure now than I was at the beginning of the year just because things have gone pretty well or or at least better than I expected and that that opens up new new opportunities. So I'm not quite sure exactly where it'll go, but that but this is my focus anyway, these two things.

Brian Casel: 01:00:53

Cool. Well, you know, Adam, thank you so much for for coming on. This was awesome. I mean, I I learned a whole bunch of stuff about launching a podcast. And next time around, if if and when I ever do it again, I'll I'm gonna take a lot of this advice for sure.

Brian Casel: 01:01:08

And as always, I'll be tuning into to the gently mad. So, Adam, thanks so much for for for coming by, and you guys can connect with Adam at a v Clark dot com. Any anywhere else people can can reach out to you?

Speaker 2: 01:01:20

No. Right now, it's just a vclark.com, and the course is linked from there, and a vclark on Twitter are the are the places. But thanks for having me on, man. I appreciate it.

Brian Casel: 01:01:29

Yeah. No problem. Alright. Talk soon.