Bootstrapped Web

Brian Casel: 00:09

This is Bootstrap Web episode 63. It is the podcast for you, the founder who learns by doing as you bootstrap your business online. And today, we are talking about consuming content and putting it into action and how we fit that into our, daily work, content consumption balance, if you will. Yep. Cool.

Brian Casel: 00:30

So, yeah. As always, I am Brian.

Jordan Gal: 00:33

And I'm Jordan. Yeah. I'm psyched for this one. We get to kinda geek out on how we procrastinate. And then we can talk about how we turn that into, you know, something actually valuable and not not procrastinating.

Brian Casel: 00:45

Yep. So it's it's almost like a podcast about podcasts or something.

Jordan Gal: 00:49

Yes. And blogs and Twitter feeds.

Brian Casel: 00:51

Content about content and blogs and and just people. Like, we're gonna kinda talk about the people that we like to kinda follow and tune into, and and why and when we consume certain content and how we actually apply it in the day to day or not. Like, some there's a lot that I just kinda consume as, like, casual consumption. I think it's I think it's important to to strike a a smart balance here, and just kinda be aware of how you consume content versus how you're actually getting real work done. So we're gonna kinda tackle all these all these things today.

Brian Casel: 01:24

But, we didn't really prepare much for this, but, Jordan, what's what's up? What what what's going on with your update?

Jordan Gal: 01:30

Oh, let's let's see. My, my natural inclination is to say nothing new, but, there's I think there's just so much happening that that I don't really know where to start. So my default is, oh, not too much. I'd say that the the theme for the past week is, is is one of strategy. It's one of okay.

Jordan Gal: 01:53

Instead of thinking about how to proceed on a strategy for cart hook all the time and having that be a constant, I'm at the point where I'm ready to set a strategy for a given amount of time and then stop thinking about it and just execute on that strategy and look at look back at the end of that time period and make a decision then on whether or not I'm on the right track or not. And a lot of this has to do with pricing and with the target customer. So up until now, you know, we we have at the early stage, we basically just take on anybody. Hey. If you're willing to try the product, man, we just need feedback.

Jordan Gal: 02:35

Just come on in. And then to convert those people into paying customers, and then, you know, you start going along a certain path, and now it's kind of like time to rethink. Like, okay. Is that actually the best path? Should I continue to go for the relatively lower end, you know, high quantity of customers with a relatively low, revenue per user, or should we go a different way?

Jordan Gal: 03:01

And and that has a lot to do with pricing and who to go after. And right now, as these this the sales starts to ramp up, we're really having a new challenge. Okay. Now now we're getting a decent number of leads. Should we be turning some people down?

Jordan Gal: 03:16

Should we be focusing on one segment to the detriment of the other? Right? It's starting to get to the point where probably shouldn't just take on everybody and just say yes to everyone. So that needs to get get

Brian Casel: 03:29

Is that set. Is that because some of the leads that are coming through, they might be signing up for free trials, but then they I wanna say the customer support load, but just getting them on board or they don't really end up being the right fit, so you spend too much time upfront Up

Jordan Gal: 03:43

until up until now getting them. Until now, I haven't cared because it's not that many customers. So I'm like, whatever. This the customer support isn't that big of a deal. But I'm starting to project forward six months, and I said, do do I wanna have hundreds of clients at x, or do I wanna have dozens of clients at five x?

Jordan Gal: 04:04

And and why? And who are we built for? Who's gonna get the most value? So it's all these questions. So that's that's I guess that's my update.

Jordan Gal: 04:13

The past week has been what is the strategy, what's the right pricing, what's the right target customer, and then, okay, at some point, have to make a decision and essentially make an educated guess and then kind of just put my head down for, call it, thirty days and then Yeah. Not rethink it until then.

Brian Casel: 04:32

And and, know, this this sounds like just kind of an arbitrary thing. Like, oh, should we get more people on the lower tier or the higher tier or the middle tier? And, like, that's it. But that impacts so many other things. Like, if you decide, like, alright, we're really gonna focus on the high end, that's gonna impact the way that you do content and the way that you do Yes.

Brian Casel: 04:49

You know, outreach. Features. The way features and yeah.

Jordan Gal: 04:53

Right. The the way the marketing site should look and sound and talk. And Yeah. Should pricing be on the website or should it be, you know, request a demo? So it's it really starts to flow through everything from the product to the features to the pricing to the marketing.

Jordan Gal: 05:10

So it really needs to get set. Up until now, I'm happy that we've And

Brian Casel: 05:14

it requires the thought. Like, it it it deserves a lot of thought.

Jordan Gal: 05:17

It should be it should be deliberate. Right? I I I shouldn't just go according to what has happened thus far. Like, that that will that will that will get somewhere, but that might not be the optimal path. You know, I keep talking about it internally to myself and my team as as a Rubik's cube.

Jordan Gal: 05:37

And we have a certain number of turns at the Rubik's cube, and depending on the moves we make, if everything clicks perfectly, the outcome can be spectacular. And each thing each move you mess up, detracts from the outcome. So if you keep kind of playing around and time just keeps going by, then it will not be as optimal of, an outcome, know, financially and and for the company, as as it could be. So it's gotta gotta gotta be careful with every little every little move.

Brian Casel: 06:08

That's right.

Jordan Gal: 06:09

How about you? What's going on?

Brian Casel: 06:11

Oh, I don't know. It's it's it's like every day, it's something different right now because I'm in this weird, kinda mental state. Everything just feels like it's in flux figuring out what's what's gonna happen next. I know there's not there there's a lot going on that I'm sorting through and and trying to just make certain decisions on that, unfortunately, I can't share too much here on the podcast today. I hope to share more later on.

Brian Casel: 06:40

But We're so shady lately.

Jordan Gal: 06:42

I know.

Brian Casel: 06:43

I know it sucks. But the conclusion that I'm coming to right now is that I the thing that I wanna do most and the and I think the thing that I should be doing most is focusing on serving my the the people who've who've subscribed to my newsletter and serving them as best I can with more content, focusing on the productized course, coming out with a, you know, new updates to that this year. A lot of exciting things going on for that this year. So I that seems to be where my focus is heading, for the foreseeable future. And we're just having a connection here, but I think we're back.

Brian Casel: 07:24

So that's going on. The other thing is, you know, my my daughter just turned one year old, and we're having a little birthday party this weekend. And,

Jordan Gal: 07:34

like Congrats. Congrats.

Brian Casel: 07:36

Thanks. And, like, it's just so crazy to think, like, oh my god. It's been a year.

Jordan Gal: 07:40

I know. Mine's mine's three. It's crazy. Yeah. You know what?

Jordan Gal: 07:44

I actually had the one year old, birthday party at Fat Cat right down the block from you.

Brian Casel: 07:49

Oh, did you? Cool. Yeah. Great. That's people.

Brian Casel: 07:50

It's right here in in Norwalk.

Jordan Gal: 07:51

Nice. Well, congrats on that. Fun stuff.

Brian Casel: 07:54

Yeah. It's fun. I mean, she's, like, walking around now. It's like, oh my god. What is happening?

Jordan Gal: 07:59

Cool. It's crazy. When's when's her birthday?

Brian Casel: 08:04

It was March 2.

Jordan Gal: 08:05

Oh, very nice. My my my second one turns one on March 20. Oh, yes. Exciting. The good stuff.

Jordan Gal: 08:13

Let let's get back to the boring stuff, the the

Brian Casel: 08:15

That's right.

Jordan Gal: 08:15

Business y stuff.

Brian Casel: 08:17

So, yeah, let's get get right into it. The topic for today, we're talking about what are we consuming and why and when and and how. Right? So Yeah. Why don't we go through our our lists of the of the things that we're tuning into?

Brian Casel: 08:28

And, you know, just so, you know, we're clear, this is not this is not an exhaustive list. I listen to a lot more people than this. I tune into a lot a lot of different people and whatnot, but these are the ones that really rise to the top in terms of, what what I'm really tuning into on a regular basis, like week to week.

Jordan Gal: 08:47

Right. Yeah. I almost feel guilty to not include other especially people who are less well known than the people that we're gonna talk about because I still get a lot out of a lot of different people. And I guess that's the, you know, power of celebrity when someone says, think of a list of x that this is what what comes to mind.

Brian Casel: 09:04

Yep. Yeah. Totally. And, like, there are there are people that I I subscribed to a lot of people's email newsletter. I follow a lot of people on on Twitter, you know, who I personally make a point of of watching what they're up to and and keeping tabs and and I mean, you know, like friends, you know, seeing what what everybody's up to.

Brian Casel: 09:26

I I like to do that. But this is the stuff that basically gets played on when I'm driving in the car, walking the dog, reading in the morning. So why don't we go through our list?

Jordan Gal: 09:36

Yeah. Let let's do it. You we broke it up into, you know, actionable and then and kinda more casual and and fun. So right let let's start off with the actionable. Right?

Jordan Gal: 09:47

There this has a place in in in our version of modern business. It's it's not just procrastination. It's not just boredom. This is how people these days learn, and you have to learn or you fall behind. And and it's enjoyable.

Jordan Gal: 10:05

It can be a little dangerous if you just learn all the time and chase, you know, business ideas that you hear about on interviews, but this this is still a very important thing. This is like Yes. This is like ongoing education for for any other industry.

Brian Casel: 10:23

Yeah. And I certainly don't think this is like, the be all end all education. Like, you're not gonna learn the ins and outs of everything that you need to learn just from listening to these podcasts. But, yeah. I think they I think they kinda keep us sharp or at least keep us up to date.

Brian Casel: 10:40

Present. Right. I tell Present. And, like, just involved in this, especially these Bootstrapper podcasts. Like just really involved in this community and seeing what people are talking about and being part of that conversation even if that means just kind of tuning in.

Jordan Gal: 10:53

Yeah. So, you know, let's start off. What what is on your actionable list?

Brian Casel: 10:58

Yeah. So the ones that I listed here are startups for the rest of us, Mixergy, Fizzle, and Tropical MBA. And I know we both listen to a lot of these as well. But I put I put those here because I well, let's see. I mean, Mixergy today, I don't listen to every Mixergy interview the way that I used to at one point.

Brian Casel: 11:19

There was, like, probably, like, one or two years there where I was literally tuning in every single interview. And what what happened then was I got really inspired by so many different business people, and the Mixergy courses, like, inspired me to do all these different strategies, you know, and and just implement them right away. And then it kinda made me lose focus or not be as strategic as I wanted to be. Today, with Mixergy, I really just seek out, you know, maybe one interview every two weeks or so that's, like, really relevant to what I'm working on right now. You know?

Brian Casel: 11:53

Or a founder who who has gone through a similar path that that I'm going through. Yeah. That's kinda what I look for in Mixergy. Startups for the rest of us, I'm tuning in every week. Tropical NBA, just about every week.

Brian Casel: 12:06

Fizzle, mostly for the entertainment value, to be honest. But I I think that's also pretty relevant, the the things that they're talking about, especially around content and and understanding your audience and knowing who your readers are. I I really like everything that that they've been talking about there.

Jordan Gal: 12:19

Yeah. I don't listen to that. I should give that more more of a try. Yeah. I I love the tropical NBA

Brian Casel: 12:24

to chase chase, like, voices. Alright. That's enough.

Jordan Gal: 12:28

Okay. Good to know. Voices are allowed on podcasts because I I got voices, man. It was just I wanna see where I can fit them in. I I like the tropical NBA guys because they it's a really different perspective.

Jordan Gal: 12:40

It's, like, international, and Yep. It's, like, strategic and, like, tax issues, and it's all mixed in with, like, the emotional side of the nomad thing and freedom. It's it's a really interesting perspective on Yep. Just, like, business people in general.

Brian Casel: 12:56

Yeah. That's actually the one aspect of their that I kind of tune out of is when they're really focused only on nomads or like specifically working in Asia, which

Jordan Gal: 13:05

Right. Right.

Brian Casel: 13:06

Right. I I think it's so cool to listen to it as like a that wouldn't that be really cool to do that? But Right.

Jordan Gal: 13:12

Not not as relevant. Not relating to

Brian Casel: 13:13

to my to what we're doing.

Jordan Gal: 13:15

So Yeah. And I I also

Brian Casel: 13:17

But but that's only a small part of it. You know? Yeah. They they just talk business, and they really know what they're talking about.

Jordan Gal: 13:21

So Yeah. And Mixergy, I'm with you a 100% on. I think that's the single best resource for entrepreneurs these days. And if you're a premium member, I have been for a long time, and that is worth Yeah.

Brian Casel: 13:31

Same here.

Jordan Gal: 13:32

That is worth many times what what you pay. The library right? So nowadays, right, the the general theme of of how this stuff has evolved for us. It's it's when you when you don't have an idea yet and you are wanna start a business, this stuff is really challenging. You listen to Mixergy.

Jordan Gal: 13:51

You know, I would do this back in the day, and I would listen to someone and hear about how much money they made and how fast they grew. You you know, your eyes kinda pop out, and all of a sudden, you start to kinda chase that idea and see things in that industry, and and that can be distracting. That's challenging. The the evolution where where it can go is once you have a business, once you're working on an idea and you're committed, then all of sudden, you you're much more targeted in what you're looking for.

Brian Casel: 14:15

Yes.

Jordan Gal: 14:16

Yeah. And and Mixergy, the library is so big that pretty much anything that you're curious about or are focused on, there are, like, several episodes for sales, for fundraising, for marketing, for LinkedIn, like, anything you can think of.

Brian Casel: 14:32

That's that's exactly, like, almost knowing Mixergy was there and being so inspired by all the the number the just the sheer number of interviews and courses. And this is even dating back to like 2010. There were still a lot a lot of them back then.

Jordan Gal: 14:48

Mhmm.

Brian Casel: 14:50

Because back then, he was I think he was doing daily. So that's what, like, allowed me to launch Restaurant Engine. I was like, Restaurant Engine in many ways for me was, like, powered by Mixergy. You know? Yeah.

Brian Casel: 15:05

Like, it it I relied so heavily on it just to learn the basics of of marketing or at least, like, get some inspiration from other founders. I still didn't know what the hell I was doing back then, but, you know, it definitely helped in terms of just, like, coming up with with ideas. I remember, like like, social media strategies and PR strategies and and and

Jordan Gal: 15:25

Yeah. It's a it's a real launching point. It's like mixergy is where you hear about these things, then you go off and discover more and discover other people that are around that topic. And then you come back to Mixergy, and, yeah, it's it's it's an amazing thing. I assume 90% of the people listening to this right now also, at the very least, are aware of Mixergy.

Jordan Gal: 15:46

And if you aren't, then above all others on this entire list, I would say, that's the place to go. And that's really the launching point. It gives you this information to work off of.

Brian Casel: 15:56

I I'd I'd probably throw startups for the rest of us in there as well. That's probably the one that recommend the most to other people who if they haven't heard of it already Mhmm. Is and they start talking about, like, I wanna get into software startups.

Jordan Gal: 16:08

I Yeah. If it's if it's software.

Brian Casel: 16:09

Listen, you know, listen to Robin, Mike. Right.

Jordan Gal: 16:11

If if it's software.

Brian Casel: 16:12

Talking about.

Jordan Gal: 16:14

Cool. So, yeah. The only one on your list that I don't listen to regularly is Fizzle. But I will I will I will check that out. Yeah.

Brian Casel: 16:20

They're great.

Jordan Gal: 16:20

Especially if they're especially if they're entertaining and funny.

Brian Casel: 16:23

Oh, yeah.

Jordan Gal: 16:23

Cool. So my my list is a little longer, so we'll we'll we'll go shorter per person. Speaking of looking for topics that are relevant, my my man, Steli Efti, the CEO of close.io, has been my main man lately. Right? So the let's say the past month, I've been focused on sales and sales process and outbound and CRM and prospecting and generating leads and qual all all this stuff.

Jordan Gal: 16:48

Steli, he doesn't have his own, like, podcast or blog. He's just the CEO of close.io, but he creates a lot of stuff. Yeah. He did this amazing speech recently, like, hustle harder. I I'd I'd like to link that in the show notes.

Jordan Gal: 17:04

Phenomenal, phenomenal speech. You hear about his story. You hear about

Brian Casel: 17:08

Good. Yes. Yeah. Good stuff. I I think did they just announce he's gonna be speaking at MicroCon?

Jordan Gal: 17:13

They did just announce that, which

Brian Casel: 17:14

is Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 17:14

Very freaking exciting.

Brian Casel: 17:16

That's gonna be awesome.

Jordan Gal: 17:17

Yep.

Brian Casel: 17:17

Yeah. I I've I've always been a fan of his stuff. I hear him on a bunch of podcasts.

Jordan Gal: 17:20

Yeah. And energetic and inspiring. Awesome. On the other side of the spectrum is Jason Cohen, the the heady, professor ish, you know, smart, quiet, calculating guy, but but he knows stuff. So I I respect his content and his point of view, and it's it's different.

Jordan Gal: 17:42

It's it's almost like anti 37 signals in some ways, and he's just a very But

Brian Casel: 17:48

still still very much the the bootstrapped mentality even though today he runs a very big company, you know, that's Yes.

Jordan Gal: 17:56

Yes.

Brian Casel: 17:57

You know, VC backed and all that. But, like, the but the mentality like, still connects with so many, you know, self funded and and just giving I I like the way that he he, he just boils down really complicated, concepts into, like, look. This is the formula, and here's why this formula works. This is the framework. You know?

Jordan Gal: 18:18

Yeah. And he And it's a

Brian Casel: 18:19

really clear way of communicating that.

Jordan Gal: 18:20

Right. And he keeps it on the ground level. Like, you you kinda get a sense that he could go further into the background of that formula and why it exists in in in that way, but he doesn't. He kinda just helps explain it. So, and he also doesn't shy away from the topic of money, which is just something that I am drawn toward and respect.

Jordan Gal: 18:38

People who don't don't

Brian Casel: 18:41

Yeah. You don't dance around.

Jordan Gal: 18:42

Yeah. If you never talk about money at all. The I don't know. We're in business. It's weird.

Jordan Gal: 18:46

It's we're it's about money. So he explains, you know, why he's doing what he's doing with WP Engine and how the the sale of his first company kind of allowed him to cross over right into that next phase of of financial needs where his, you know, his family's taken care of, and he can kinda have more fun, and that's why he's doing so he just does not ignore that side of things, which I respect on top of just like, you know, we've talked about his speech at MicroConf, the perfect bootstrap startup. That's phenomenal. And I think he's actually gonna be there this year as well.

Brian Casel: 19:21

Yep.

Jordan Gal: 19:22

Cool. Let's see. Patrick McKenzie, patio eleven. He's he's great. He's almost too geeky for me.

Jordan Gal: 19:30

He's, like, develop developer y, and he's, like, throwing these inside jokes that I am not on the inside of. But he's awesome and just like a nice, smart, successful guy.

Brian Casel: 19:42

Yeah. Yeah. Again, like, so so smart and so well thought out in in the way that he that he writes. I mean, really lengthy blog posts.

Jordan Gal: 19:50

Right.

Brian Casel: 19:50

And Right. But in in every time I read one, I'm like, I'm I'm I'm still kind of glued to to the page because I I almost feel like he doesn't get enough credit for his writing skills. Yes. Great writer. You know?

Brian Casel: 20:02

He's he I think most people respect him for he he the like, the smart ideas and the and the actionable advice that he gives. But the way that he lays out you know, because I think on like, reading online and reading blogs online, it's generally a turn off when the when the article is, like, super super long. And I found that in my own blog posts. It's like when I go on too long, people just don't connect with it as much as they do with the shorter post, and I've been trying to edit my stuff as much as I can to to get it shorter and more consumable. But his stuff is like I almost like want it.

Brian Casel: 20:35

Like, the longer the better because it's like every time all the stuff that I'm reading through is like so packed with insights that it's it's good stuff.

Jordan Gal: 20:43

He also has a a voice. And Yeah. You you can you can hear it, his little asides and his, like, geeky comedy. You know, so you listen to his speeches, and then you read his writing, and it's like, oh, that's the same person with the same voice, and you can almost hear it in your head as he's making a little funny joke off to the side or throws in, like, a mathematical formula as part of the as as part of the writing.

Brian Casel: 21:07

Yeah. I mean, like, writing the way that you speak I mean, Patrick McKenzie does it really, really well. Brian Harris is another person who does that incredibly well and almost on, like, the other spectrum the other side of the spectrum of of, like, style and and voice, but he it's still so authentic.

Jordan Gal: 21:24

Yes. Yes. And I think that's that's his strongest, yeah, strongest strongest thing that his not only his creative ideas, but he and he he puts it out in a really in a great way. Yep. With that, Brennan Dunn, a great writer.

Jordan Gal: 21:39

I mean, pretty much above all other things. If if he didn't write as well as he does, nothing would work as as well as it does for him. So I I I always like to keep an eye on what Brennan's doing.

Brian Casel: 21:52

Yeah. And and Brennan, he he just gives so much value. And he and and what's what's great about what he does is like he knows his audience so well that he's not just writing stuff that that they'll like kinda like, but he's writing stuff that, like, he knows will actually help them make more money, get more sales, or or, you know, get more clients. Like, he he's actually solving real problems in in every single blog that comes

Jordan Gal: 22:19

out with. Right. Every post

Brian Casel: 22:20

and sometimes he'll take breaks, like, know, not not do it for a week or two, but, like, you know, like, when he's sending something, it's value. So that's that's why he's done so Right.

Jordan Gal: 22:29

He puts, like, an eight part email course together. Like, every email is a real problem he's addressing, And he he writes almost in a way as if, like, if you hired him and said, I'm gonna pay you $500 to sit down with me at a coffee shop for half an hour to solve this one problem, he's like, he gives it gives everything to you.

Brian Casel: 22:48

Totally.

Jordan Gal: 22:49

So what else? I like I I listen to ecommerce fuel. That's a podcast, and I'm also part of, that's by Andrew Udarian, who is great on in the ecommerce world. And he also has a a like, a private forum I'm a part of, and that has been impressive in terms of the content and the people. So that helps me kinda keep my finger on the pulse of the ecommerce world, for for Carthook.

Jordan Gal: 23:15

Mhmm. What else? On on slightly differently, I like, I like Frank Kern and Mike Fulsain from the, like, affiliate product info product worlds. I think they're just, like, the two most talented of that bunch. So watching

Brian Casel: 23:31

Super it's like super aggressive with with marketing, but but successful and and you can learn a lot.

Jordan Gal: 23:38

Oh my yeah. So talented. And and that that world those guys have risen to the top not because they're the slimiest, but because they're the smartest and they they do things the right way and they're, like, anti slimy. And, yeah, those guys are worth watching, Frank Kernan and Mike Filsain. The last thing is growth hackers.

Jordan Gal: 23:59

You know, I don't go to the site, but I follow them on Twitter, and that Twitter feed is ridiculous. It is so so good.

Brian Casel: 24:06

You know, I I only, started following that feed the the site. I'll I'll go to the site every now and then, like, recently. And and I like it. They're they're definitely it's one of those, like, link upvoting type of sites.

Jordan Gal: 24:19

Right. Just just focused Yeah. You know, on things that you care about. And lastly, First Round, which is a a venture capital company, they recently launched a blog that is just outstanding. So, yeah, First Round I don't know if it's First Round.

Jordan Gal: 24:35

I think it's just firstround.com. Think it's First Round Capital. Whatever. It's a VC company, but they're they're doing content marketing, which is super interesting. I guess they're watching the, Brad Felds and the, you know, Fred Wilsons of the world kinda make a name for themselves by, by doing that.

Brian Casel: 24:53

Yeah. Yeah. Though I mean, the from the VC world, the Brad Feld and and Fred Wilson are the ones that I kinda read fairly regularly just to kinda I I I like their writing. I like they're they're clearly, you know, smart people.

Jordan Gal: 25:06

So Yeah. Here. And even if it's not that relevant or you're raising, you know, a $2,000,000 round, this and it's still really good.

Brian Casel: 25:12

Paul Graham Paul Graham as well is like, when when an essay comes out, it's like, gotta read

Jordan Gal: 25:17

it. Yeah. It's I I agree. I agree. That's he's got that down.

Jordan Gal: 25:21

He's like, I don't talk a lot, but when I talk, the entire Internet reads this. That's right. And that's it. And lastly, just to be a little bit nasty, I like to listen to people who make a lot of money. You know?

Jordan Gal: 25:34

I I just appreciate people who can kinda back it up and not, like, not the things that we're used to seeing. You know? Not the I have a successful software company that makes $20 a month. It's like the people who, you know, who freaking print money and and make do

Brian Casel: 25:53

you go about, like, seeking those people out? And what what do you like, what's an example of, like, someone that you'd feel that you'd, like, follow in that way?

Jordan Gal: 25:59

I I guess, I don't know, like a Mark Cuban comes to mind or

Brian Casel: 26:03

just You know, Mark Cuban is I've become such a bigger fan of his over the years. And when I first like, as a as a kid, like, as a basketball fan, I hated him as the owner of the of the Mavs. But, like, like, like, Shark Tank and hearing interviews with him in other places, it's like, I've become such a fan of, like, the way he he he talks about business.

Jordan Gal: 26:24

You know? Yeah. The way he talks about it, way he thinks about it. So I think that is just helpful and healthy not to keep the blinders on. It's kinda why, like, Frank Kern and Mike Filsaime, those guys will do a launch of a of a software product, and they'll do it in their way, and they'll make, like, $6,000,000 on a one week launch.

Jordan Gal: 26:44

And they're they're just thinking in big numbers, and I think it's just healthy to kinda have that as part of your thought process and the examples that you compare yourself to and challenge yourself with.

Brian Casel: 26:57

Yeah. You know, like, on that note, like, I I don't personally, I don't necessarily seek out people who, like, you know, millionaires, billionaires, and just and and they they don't necessarily catch my attention, I think, that way. But what does fascinate me are, like, the best of the best in whatever it is, especially, like, professional athletes. You know, I I I am fascinated by like Tiger Woods and LeBron James and like, what is it about them that's like and and like Michael Jordan, you know. What is it about them that that they're not only in the best league in in the in the in the world, but they're the best of the best?

Brian Casel: 27:37

Like, how do they function on that level? Or how do they perform on that level? Like, what's different? You know, I've always been fascinated by that.

Jordan Gal: 27:44

Just that the the peak of of performance.

Brian Casel: 27:47

Yeah. Like the like, you know, Malcolm Gladwell's book, Outliers. Yeah. That's interesting. Home for me for sure.

Jordan Gal: 27:53

Yeah. That's interesting. Outliers is interesting because it brings those people down to earth and it kinda makes the right, it makes the argument that it's not not as much that these people are just superhuman and special. It is also these other factors. I I think for me, like, the whole celebrity thing and athlete thing, right, I'm 35 years old.

Jordan Gal: 28:15

I I have pretty much proven to myself that I'm not that exceptional. Right? I'm I'm not like the Midas touch entrepreneur that everything you touch turns to gold, and I'm not, you know, hanging out with celebrities. So, like, okay, Maybe I'm just not at the peak of performance. And so maybe those people I look at and I admire, but I'm like, yeah.

Jordan Gal: 28:36

Has nothing to do with me.

Brian Casel: 28:38

Yeah. I mean, I I don't say, like like, I can learn anything from them or or take any, like, anything that's really gonna help me. I just I'm just, for some reason, like, fast I've always been fascinated by, like, the best player on the court. Like, why are they performing differently than everyone else? You know?

Brian Casel: 28:53

Yeah. I I think a lot of it comes down to, like, not even just the physical strength or or or or the, you know, the athletic skill because the everybody on the court has that. They Michael Jordan is just, like, hyper competitive. Like, he has this, like, mental thing that or, you know, the the best pitchers in baseball. It's not because they throw a couple miles an hour faster than everyone else.

Brian Casel: 29:17

I mean, everybody in the league throws a 100 miles an hour. The the best ones win at the mental game.

Jordan Gal: 29:24

Right. Some something

Brian Casel: 29:24

There's something different.

Jordan Gal: 29:25

Yeah. Yeah. I I agree. Interesting stuff. So So that's kind of that's kind of our our hardcore list.

Jordan Gal: 29:32

I mean, you wanna get into some of the stuff that we consume, like, for fun, casually, you know, or or move on to

Brian Casel: 29:41

Yeah. I mean, I I just wanted to mention a couple. Like, because, like, these are not the difference between like, so these would still be considered, like, business podcasts.

Jordan Gal: 29:49

Mhmm.

Brian Casel: 29:50

But I don't listen to them thinking, alright. I'm gonna listen to this episode, and it's really gonna help me with this project that I'm working on today. These are things that I just like to listen to for fun because I we live and breathe this stuff.

Jordan Gal: 30:01

Right? Because there's silence and it it must be filled.

Brian Casel: 30:04

Yeah. Pretty much. Smart passive income, Pat Flynn, you know. I think it would be more actionable for me if if I were in a similar type of business, like, you know, like an affiliate marketing type of thing. Mhmm.

Brian Casel: 30:18

But I think it's it's it's really interesting to hear stories from the lesser known people that he has on and how they've turned things around for themselves. And and and just the way that Pat, like, produces his podcast, I think, is really just just excellent. You know? Bootstrapped with kids. You know?

Brian Casel: 30:36

I I they almost almost went away there for a month, and

Jordan Gal: 30:39

they just came back this week.

Brian Casel: 30:40

I was I was glad to hear that.

Jordan Gal: 30:42

I love those guys. And and a lot of times, it is actionable, but it's like so much fun listening to them that it's almost just categorized as casual because it's you laugh. It's it's a great show.

Brian Casel: 30:52

I I think they're in this group of of boostrapters in this community who I I literally just tune in to them to hear their update. And I think startups for the rest of us, Rob and Mike, I'm mostly tuning in to hear their update. And the actionable stuff is good, and it's cool, but, there's just a group of podcasts that I just wanna hear what's new. You know? True.

Brian Casel: 31:11

That's, that's how I look at, like, Bootstrap with kids. So Build and Launch, I think, is another one, Justin Jackson, which he for a while, he was doing the product people Mhmm. Podcast. I don't know if he's gonna bring that back or not, but lately, he's been doing the Build and Launch a couple times a week.

Jordan Gal: 31:28

Yeah. Interesting interesting concept. Sounds insane to me, but I I I haven't listened yet. Is it is it good?

Brian Casel: 31:34

Yeah. It is good. It's they're, like, bite sized episodes, maybe ten, fifteen minutes each.

Jordan Gal: 31:40

Yeah. I mean, he's a warrior. He he just he gets a lot done.

Brian Casel: 31:43

Yeah. It is good, though. He he actually produces it very differently than than he did the previous podcast because the this one is, like, cut up into chunks. Like, he'll he'll he'll, like, say something like, yeah. And, like, the other day, was talking to my friend, Jared Drysdale about how I'm gonna launch this product.

Brian Casel: 31:59

Let's cut to that. And then they cut to, like, a a recording of him talking to Jared. Cool. And then and then, like, another time, like, he he called up a competitor because he released the same ebook topic. Mhmm.

Brian Casel: 32:10

And and they recorded that their phone call, and, like, he talked about it, and then they cut to that, and then they talked about it again. And, like, you know, it's just really well produced music in the the way that it's all edited together. It's really pretty cool.

Jordan Gal: 32:22

Very cool.

Brian Casel: 32:25

Ask Gary Vee. I've been I've been into this one. I don't listen to every episode, but it's it's just it just pumps you up. And like Gary Vee just like, you listen to him and it's like, if if you if you need to get like five minutes of of like just Energy. Just energy.

Brian Casel: 32:44

Yeah. It it it's it's good for that, you know. And and I I do think that there there are some real business insights hidden underneath the the layer of, like, excitement and energy

Jordan Gal: 32:56

Yeah.

Brian Casel: 32:56

That he that he brings, you know?

Jordan Gal: 32:57

Yeah. Yeah. So that and that was kinda new. Right? Because he kinda floated away from my, like, mental sphere because he he got into other things and started moving up market, working with bigger companies and was kinda like, you know Yes.

Jordan Gal: 33:10

It it wasn't as relevant. And all of a sudden, saw I've I follow him on Twitter and and this AskGaryVee thing. I've definitely watched a few of them, and it's a it's a different thing. It almost kinda brings him back into our sphere a lot more.

Brian Casel: 33:23

Yes. And it so back in the day when he was doing Wine Library TV and then he got popular, he became known for social media

Jordan Gal: 33:31

Mhmm.

Brian Casel: 33:31

As like the guru for that. And that's almost kind of what led me and and probably a lot of us who are in this community away from him because it's like, alright. We're not really getting too much new ideas or actionable stuff. But I think in this new podcast, which maybe almost a year now or something like that, maybe six months, something like that. But it it it's like daily and it it's all questions, and a and a lot of them are social media related, but then there are a lot of just straight business

Jordan Gal: 34:02

Mhmm.

Brian Casel: 34:02

Questions. And it doesn't go deep. They're only, like, five, six minute episodes, but, you know, they're little gems of wisdom and just energy and and passion. Yeah. What else we got?

Brian Casel: 34:15

Gently Mad, Adam Clark. He was on a previous episode here talking about podcasting. The Gently Mad is a really great, show the way he puts it together. It's really casual, laid back conversation, not very focused, and he intends it to not be very actionable. He just kinda wants to understand the the person behind Mhmm.

Brian Casel: 34:34

What everyone kinda knows about them. So that I think that's an interesting show to tune into. James Altucher. I always have trouble pronouncing his name. James Everybody does.

Brian Casel: 34:45

Show. Altucher.

Jordan Gal: 34:47

Yes. That's my guess.

Brian Casel: 34:48

Some business interviews, some non business interviews. I think he's just a great interviewer. Yeah. I I have a I have such a great respect for really good interviewers. You know?

Brian Casel: 34:58

I I think anyone can just invite any guest and throw up a bunch of questions. Very few take the time to really understand the right questions to ask in the right sequence and with the right follow-up and know how to guide the the person in in such a and he's a really good

Dan Norris: 35:14

Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 35:14

It's like a learned skill and also requires, like, emotional intelligence at a at a high level, like, have the right timing. And he's just he's just a he's a cool guy. He's an interesting cat. Yeah. Totally.

Jordan Gal: 35:27

Successful and humble to the extreme.

Brian Casel: 35:32

Yep. Right. I've I've been tuning into Zen founder. It's Rob Walling and Sherry Walling's new new podcast a couple episodes in. It's been really, really good.

Brian Casel: 35:41

A lot of good insights in there.

Jordan Gal: 35:43

Yeah. It talk it talks about a side of things that you don't normally hear about, where it's like life as an entrepreneur, married life as an entrepreneur, parent life. Yeah. That that one, I listened to, like, the first two episodes and sent them over to my wife. And I was like, know, I think Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 35:59

I think she would get a lot out of it.

Brian Casel: 36:01

I that's true. I listened to one of them in the car with my wife Yep. The other day. And, yeah. It it's it's a really really cool show.

Brian Casel: 36:07

I like what they're doing there. The other thing that I'll mention, this is not podcast, but, you know, you gotta say or for me, like Seth Godin, I'm I'm reading almost every day his his his daily blog posts. Really?

Jordan Gal: 36:19

He puts out Oh, yeah. Daily blog posts. They're almost like too ethereal. They're like conceptual and I I I I get it and I see the value in like his version of genius. Right?

Jordan Gal: 36:32

He he he sees it in a little different way and and the ability to make it really short and concise, you have to respect also. Yeah. But, yeah, I guess that I get makes sense.

Brian Casel: 36:42

He's in my he's in my feed of blogs that I read every morning. And And you can read in sixty seconds. Yeah. I mean, it's they're so short and so insightful. Every time I I whether I'm watching a TED talk from him or reading one of his books or his or his blog posts, it's it's like it it's he's one of these guys, like a like a pro athlete who just performs at the top of his game in terms of like sharing really insightful stuff every single day.

Brian Casel: 37:11

Like, how does he show up and get all this stuff? Like, how does he process all the all the all these thoughts and then write it? Like, I mean, it's because he's done it every day for years. But, yeah. Just really, really good stuff.

Brian Casel: 37:25

And I I think most of all, just respect him as a writer more than anything. And to to learn how to, like, be so concise, that's something that I struggle with and I wanna get better at, and and he's the best.

Jordan Gal: 37:39

Cool. What what's next? We have some some, like, community communities forms.

Brian Casel: 37:43

Yeah. I wanted to, you mention a couple of communities. And maybe before we jump into this one, like, when do you listen to podcasts or consume blogs? Or, like, how do you fit it into your day?

Jordan Gal: 37:59

Well, I don't I don't commute anymore. So that that's when I would really get into it or I would listen to audiobooks or something. So I really kinda have it going throughout the day. But when I wanna focus on a task, I switch to music. So the the podcast almost come in when I'm a little bit more relaxed.

Jordan Gal: 38:17

I'm like, alright. Let me just go through my email and respond and clean up my inbox for half an hour, put on a podcast. Let me do you know, I

Brian Casel: 38:25

can never listen to podcasts while I'm doing any kinda work. Kind of like, doesn't happen. I I listen to music, and usually music that that's instrumental. Mhmm. It's it's the it's the lyrics or the talking that just I can't read or write alongside that.

Jordan Gal: 38:41

Yeah. And I've gone into the somewhat bad habit of just having on a podcast pretty much all the time in my off time when I'm by myself. You know, I wake up first in the house, start taking care of the dogs, have a coffee, clean up the dish you know, there's a podcast going. Yeah. So all it's these, little gaps.

Brian Casel: 38:59

Yeah. That's the same with me. I I listen when I walk the dog, when I'm when I'm home in the middle of the day home alone, I'm making my my lunch just kinda watching the baby or doing the dishes. I'm I'm listening then. I I'm usually listening in the car.

Brian Casel: 39:13

I've got about a five minute drive between home and and the office. I'm listening then. Anywhere else I'm driving, I'm I'm probably listening to something. So Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 39:22

So so this is that that's the interesting thing that that brings up. Right? So you listen to a podcast wherever you listen to it. While you're doing something, while you have time off in the morning, whatever it is. It's it's it's interesting how what you learn and what you hear about on a podcast, it just kinda soaks into your brain.

Jordan Gal: 39:41

And then, right, that that has a way of keeping you current in a in a very it's it's a very passive way to do it. But then all of a sudden, you get into a conversation with someone where you start to think about how should we go about doing this outbound sales process thing. And then and then all of a sudden, your brain kinda has it accessible, all this stuff that you listened to and learned about and read. So it's it the time between when it soaks in and when you're actually using it, it can be anywhere between, like, immediate to weeks. But but this stuff has a way of just kinda soaking in.

Jordan Gal: 40:21

The more you consume, the more stuff you have accessible, the the more your vocabulary expands around the stuff, the more tools you're aware of and competitors. And it's it's a very funny thing how how we can do that. And then you can you can still pull it out and and use it even though you weren't very proactively, you know, focused on exactly what you what you were hearing.

Brian Casel: 40:43

Yeah. I mean, like, one thing that I'm actively trying to change about my routine is is to get away from podcast, frankly, and get more into audiobooks, which I've been into audiobooks for a while, but I don't give them enough time. That that like, they don't equal the the amount of time that I do podcasts. And I sometimes I feel like just listening to the same podcasts again and again, and kind of in in many ways, the same topics repeating again and again. That's not expanding my my mind or my experience or giving me new ideas, and I need to get into more books.

Brian Casel: 41:20

I I read before bed usually. And typically, I I look at business books the way that I look at podcasts. It's like what what's most actionable to what I'm working on right now. But, now I'm trying to get to just pick an interesting book, whether it's business or otherwise, and and get into it. So, like, right now, I'm listening to Zero to One, the the business book.

Brian Casel: 41:42

Yeah. I'm also reading, what is it? It's like a presidential historic historian, Doris Kearns Goodwin's

Jordan Gal: 41:54

Oh, yeah. Which

Brian Casel: 41:54

A recent book.

Jordan Gal: 41:55

Oh, her her recent one.

Brian Casel: 41:56

Yeah. About about Theodore Roosevelt.

Jordan Gal: 42:00

Mhmm.

Brian Casel: 42:00

Just get into that, you know.

Jordan Gal: 42:02

Yeah. I think that's good. It and it helps you think. It helps your brain, helps your idea creation. Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 42:11

Zero to One is a good example. When I heard about the book, I immediately dismissed it as that's just not gonna be relevant. That's just gonna be a a billionaire, Peter Thiel, talking about billionaire stuff and Right. Companies that change the world, and that's not that relevant. But then you read the book, and it's very interesting, and it's about ideas more than anything.

Jordan Gal: 42:31

And then you take that, and you apply that to your universe of experience. And all of a sudden, it's it's very relevant.

Brian Casel: 42:38

Yeah. And and I think he says in the book, it's it's it's it's a book about how to think about certain things. Mhmm. And it and it's like kind of giving you a a different perspective on how to think think through really complex ideas.

Jordan Gal: 42:54

Yeah. He he clearly has for a very long time and very Yep. Very effectively.

Brian Casel: 42:59

Yep. Other ways that I spend a couple minutes here and there from, like, waiting online somewhere or, you know, just kinda sitting around a couple minutes to to kill, I like to hop on to a couple of communities. I'm doing this more recently than than I did before. I I never used to be a big forum guy, but, lately, I have been. So discuss dot bootstrapped FM from the from the bootstrapped f m guys.

Brian Casel: 43:25

By the way, I I do enjoy their podcast. I just don't listen to it as often as I as I'd like, probably because it's just very long and I mean, ours is very long. But

Jordan Gal: 43:38

We can't we can't help it.

Brian Casel: 43:40

Yeah. I I am a fan of the of the forum for sure. And and and fan of both Ian and and Andrew, you know, what they're what they've been up to. But bootstrappers.io is another site. It's similar to Growth Hackers, but kinda focused on on the bootstrapping community.

Brian Casel: 43:57

A lot of good you know, there's not enough volume of of articles there. I would I would I hope that site gets a little bit more traffic and popular, But, but that's a good one. Product people club, Justin Jackson's I think it's basically a Slack room at this point. Mhmm. So I'm in there, which is cool.

Brian Casel: 44:16

It's a it's a really good community. A lot of good discussion going on. The only thing that I don't like about it is that it's Slack. I I really like Slack for my team.

Jordan Gal: 44:25

Mhmm.

Brian Casel: 44:26

For for a small team and getting work done and pinging each other with questions and stuff. But for a large group, networking group or whatever, it does not work for that purpose. I wish people would not use it

Jordan Gal: 44:36

Yeah. That for that purpose. That sounds strange. I have it's ridiculous. The adoption rate for Slack is is it's like the highest I've ever come across of any product.

Jordan Gal: 44:47

It is Yeah. There is zero there is zero friction. You just you just adopt into that product and start using it on a daily basis without even noticing. It's just literally

Brian Casel: 44:59

It's got that viral thing, like people invite you to a group and then you start using it yourself.

Dan Norris: 45:03

It's just

Jordan Gal: 45:03

literally the easiest way to communicate, and then all of a sudden everything is there, and links, and files, and it's just Yeah. It's it's absurd. We have adopted into Slack like overnight. It's just, oh, yeah. Let let's give this a try.

Jordan Gal: 45:17

Bang.

Brian Casel: 45:18

I think it's great for teams for that purpose. Yep. But these larger networking groups, it does not work for that. And it I mean, I think the reason is simple. It doesn't have threading.

Brian Casel: 45:27

Like, if someone posts a question, then I gotta, like, scroll back up through, like, hundreds of other posts just to reply to that one per it doesn't it doesn't work for that. Let's see what else. I gotta I guess I gotta plug the the the Facebook group for product highs. That's been really active lately. I hop in there on a daily basis and and kinda talk with what students are Nice.

Brian Casel: 45:50

Are working on. Dan Norris also put together a Facebook group for his book, The Seven Day Startup. That's really active. A lot of good conversations going on in there. So I I like to hop into these.

Jordan Gal: 46:02

Nice. Yeah. I'm I'm a passive, community guy, which I think that's why I like Growth Hacker so much. There's so much volume that you can be a completely passive participant and get a ton of value.

Brian Casel: 46:14

Yeah. Totally. Alright, man. We'll So where do we go from here?

Jordan Gal: 46:19

I I feel like

Brian Casel: 46:19

we,

Jordan Gal: 46:20

I I feel like we have demolished productivity across the land with Right. With this episode, but, you know, for for a good cause.

Brian Casel: 46:30

Well, I mean, people aren't being very productive by listening to us right now, are they?

Jordan Gal: 46:35

I mean

Brian Casel: 46:36

I don't know. I hope hopefully, we're a little bit actionable at least. Today, we're just kinda rambling on about stuff we're reading.

Jordan Gal: 46:42

Well, I I think we fall into a little bit of the actionable and a little bit of the casual. You know? Yep. I I think people like listening in on the you know, our situations because we don't, you know, cover it in fluff, and we're in very much, similar situations than a lot of people listening. And then every once in a while, we get our act together and we say, alright.

Jordan Gal: 47:02

This is how you do x, and it's it's actionable.

Brian Casel: 47:05

Yes. I hope so. Yes.

Jordan Gal: 47:10

Cool. So, yeah, let's talk a bit about how we use all this stuff. Right? And I I just I had this thought as we were talking about the topic for today. So I'm on a I'm on a phone call with another founder of a different software company yesterday, and I'm asking him about his pricing.

Jordan Gal: 47:30

And we get into it, and we start talking about microconf, and, you know, I I proposed an attendee talk about how to do outbound sales, all this other stuff. So he's asking about outbound sales. And he's like, I'm psyched for your speech. Give me the five minute version. So I give him the five minute version of it, and he's like, that's so useful.

Jordan Gal: 47:50

I'm you know, he's like happy that he's like, I can't wait to hear the speech. If you have slides, send my way. And and right. And it feels very unoriginal to me, like, what what I'm talking about. But first, so this is the concept that we've talked about.

Jordan Gal: 48:06

So you you you read, you listen, you come across this content, you consume it, and then at some point, you need to act on it. Right? And that's that's the that's the challenge that it really should be fifty fifty if not, you know, more skewed toward action. And then when you take action on stuff you've learned, all of a sudden because you're applying your real world filter to it, right, someone will tell you this is exactly how you build the sales funnel. And then you try to do that and then you you have to adjust for your situation, your business, your this, your that.

Jordan Gal: 48:39

And then on the other end, on the other side of taking that action, all of a sudden, you you have created a unique process, and you've created value just by taking what you learned and then applying your situation to it. And then all of a sudden, what you have on the other end is valuable in a different way.

Brian Casel: 49:00

Yeah. And and I think the the reason part of the reason for that, I think, is just the the case study. I think people really at least I do, really latch on to case studies. I wanna hear about how did you actually do it in your business, because I wanna hear that story. And, I think people I think we all think in terms of stories

Jordan Gal: 49:23

Mhmm.

Brian Casel: 49:24

And we and we learn in terms of stories, and that's why stories are so powerful. I think that comes back to why Mixergy has been so effective, as a program to to help people, like, help people run their business. It's because I, like, I learned so much just from hearing, like

Jordan Gal: 49:40

Yeah. It's really

Brian Casel: 49:40

So it's like, why why are stories so effective? It's because I I like to think about or hear about their decision points and why they made certain decisions given the circumstances that they were facing. And that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm gonna follow that exactly, and you shouldn't because it won't work out the way it worked out for them.

Jordan Gal: 49:59

Mhmm. But hearing their journey makes it much more hearing thought process Right.

Brian Casel: 50:05

And getting behind the scenes is the the best way to learn. Because that's that's the closest that you can get to actually doing it yourself, which I think is the ultimate way to learn Right. Anything. And that's why I think, like, half of this, maybe even less than half of it, is from the books, the podcast, the blogs, the talks. And then the other half is, like, you gotta learn it by doing it.

Jordan Gal: 50:24

Yeah.

Brian Casel: 50:25

There's just no other way because it's gonna you gotta find your own way through it.

Jordan Gal: 50:28

Yeah. It's like, you know, painting or building something or whatever it is. You can get the raw material. You can get the plans on how to build something, and then you need to take that raw material, that content, in our case, and then you need you need to get to work. You need to build it, what you create is not gonna look exactly like what, you know, the model looks like or what the other person described, but you will have learned how to build your version of of that thing.

Jordan Gal: 50:55

And, yeah, that's it's incredibly, useful. Yeah. You're right. Mixergy, that's really the thing. It's tell me your story, and you get to learn through hearing hearing that story.

Brian Casel: 51:08

Yep. And that comes back to, you know, Andrew being such a great interviewer is because he's he's he perfected the whole idea of bringing out somebody's story and getting it out in the right sequence and and all that. So should we should we wrap it up?

Jordan Gal: 51:24

Yeah. I think I think we should. I think yeah. This is this is cool. I'm I'm gonna go back and listen to this.

Jordan Gal: 51:31

I'm a procrastinate for hours and read forever.

Brian Casel: 51:35

Yeah. I think this turned out to be a a good one. I I wasn't sure about this episode going into it, but I I think it's good.

Jordan Gal: 51:40

Right. Let's talk about things we read and listen to for a while. No. I I hope I hope I hope it is valuable. I know I I I had a great time.

Brian Casel: 51:49

Yeah. Good stuff. Well, thank you. Thank you all for tuning in, and we will see you next week. As always, you can go to bootstrappedweb.com, get the, previous episodes.

Brian Casel: 51:58

And if you're if you're connected with this stuff, head over to iTunes, leave us a five star review, and, we'd love to hear what you think. And as always, send in your questions. One of these days, we'll do another q and a episode and and dig into what you guys are working on as well. So looking forward to that, and we'll we will, we'll see you next week.

Jordan Gal: 52:14

Alright. Thanks as always. Talk to you soon, Brian.

Brian Casel: 52:16

Later, Brian.