[70] The MicroConf 2015 Recap Show
Hey now. This is Bootstrapped Web episode number 70. This is the podcast for you, the founder who learns by doing as you bootstrap your business online just like we are. Today, we're gonna look back at MicroConf two thousand fifteen. Brian and I were in Vegas together for that conference, and we'll just kinda talk about our takeaways and our recap and share with you a little bit about what we learned there and what we took out of it.
Jordan Gal:So as always, I am Jordan.
Brian Casel:And I'm Brian. And man, it feels feels good to be back. You know, good refreshing break at MicroConf. And we will we'll we'll get right into our new updates as we got back from this trip right after this. Today's episode is sponsored by LES Accounting.
Brian Casel:So I caught up with the co founder of LES, Allen Branch. Take a listen. Alright. I'm here with Alan Branch. Alan, thanks for joining me here.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me.
Brian Casel:Cool. So, Less Accounting. You know, I'm curious. Why did you call the company Less? What does that mean?
Speaker 3:Everyone wants to get back to work. And accounting and bookkeeping is one of those things that everyone dreads doing and no one has the time for and we want we don't wanna build software that takes up time. So obviously less features, spending less time in the application, get back to work, back to billing clients, making money. That was our goal.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Totally. And I and I've used less accounting before and I've used other accounting software before and that's what always frustrated me so much about about these other guys is is like there's so many features and buttons and forms and pages that you have to like sift through and but you know, what I really liked about about your product was the way that you write copy within the product and how, like, you describe things in totally, like, nontechnical terms, you know, kinda like speaking my language.
Speaker 3:Sure. So I think, you know, we write our copy the way we speak to our friends. We didn't invent that concept either. Can't quite claim to that. But, bookkeeping sucks, and every piece of accounting software is terrible, including ours.
Speaker 3:We can't get rid of how bad doing back reconciliations is and and categorizing expenses. We can't get rid of that. What we can do is speak friendly to our customers within the app and try our just our damnedest to be friendly and kind and jovial within the bookkeeping task and the speak instead of trying to make things less or more pleasant as opposed to as opposed to terrible.
Brian Casel:Yep. So, you know, you guys have, like, thousands of customers now. Who are your customers? Who did you design LessAccounting for? How would you describe like your, you know, your most common customer for Less Accounting?
Speaker 3:I would describe them as handsome and smart.
Brian Casel:Well, we know that.
Speaker 3:Yes. They're the smartest people in the world, and they're the most successful business owners in the world as well. No. You know, we built this account. We started building it in 2006 or 2007, late six, early seven, something like that.
Speaker 3:And we built it for ourselves. At the time, we were freelancers. My business partner and I were freelancers. We needed to send a few invoices, send a proposal or two, track some expenses, and then get back to work. And we built it for ourselves.
Speaker 3:And we continue to add little features here and there, fighting back the major accounting features that QuickBooks has or other other accountants or CPAs want, and kind of just staying focused on what the core business owner needs to make sort of, spending decisions and hiring decisions.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Very cool. So what is this autopilot thing I heard about? Sounds interesting.
Speaker 3:So as much as, you know, being a software guy, I think software is, you know, the answer to every question. It's which we do, build software. But there are things that we cannot automate with software. You know, bank reconciliations and some expense calculation just has to happen by a human. And as your business progresses and you become busier and busier as a business owner or freelancer, know, you start shifting your focus into sales or marketing and out of bookkeeping.
Speaker 3:And so we've added basically a service layer on top of less accounting. You can still do your books and less accounting yourself DIY, and it's a great piece of software. But now we actually have bookkeepers that will help you on a reoccurring basis doing expense categorization and bank reconciliations. We're not touching people's invoices. That's sort of what I think is at least the fun part of running a business is collecting your invoices.
Speaker 3:And so we're not doing invoice collection for people, but we're handling all the other tasks that they dread.
Brian Casel:Yeah. So you're just handling like the boring stuff, like the monthly reconciliations and that kind of stuff?
Speaker 3:And then we package it up all beautifully and we either send it off to your CPA for him to smile and thank you for, or we introduce you to a CPA that we think is a kick ass and they'll help you file your taxes.
Brian Casel:I love it, man. That's awesome. So, Alan, thank you so much. I know our listeners will get a lot out of lessaccounting for sure.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Thank you.
Brian Casel:Alright. So head over to lessaccounting.com and if you're interested in their new autopilot bookkeeping service go to lessaccounting.com/autopilot. Be sure to use the coupon code Bootstrappedweb and that will give you your first month of bookkeeping service for free or that'll get you two months free of the LESS accounting software. So thank you Alan and the guys over at LESS.
Jordan Gal:Alright, Brian. So we've been back for about a week now. Why don't we catch up on some updates on what we've been up to, what's new, and then let's dive into MicroComp two thousand fifteen and our takeaways.
Brian Casel:Yeah. So, you know, just kinda catching up on all that work that that has kinda piled up after taking a few days off. And I actually stayed in Vegas after after MicroComp for an additional four days. My wife came out to Vegas on that Wednesday on that Wednesday, and then she and I kinda hung out, hung around Vegas for a couple days. We, you know, we kinda acted like tourists for a couple days, went went to a bunch of restaurants, saw saw a show.
Brian Casel:We actually got out to Red Rock Canyon, which looked really beautiful, a lot of fun. So that just felt good to take a break and just so much has been going on work wise. But this week I am back, back to the grind and lot of big projects and things that I'm sinking into. One thing that I was working on yesterday and today was working on the the Productize community. So the community forum has been one of the most popular parts of Productize, and I've been really happy with it.
Brian Casel:So up until now, it's been a private Facebook group, and that's what I launched with a couple of months ago. And I knew that at the time when I launched it, using a Facebook group wasn't the ideal solution. I I just knew that it was a way to quickly get some kind of private group forum going, makes it easier to to launch quickly. And and I figured that at some point, I would migrate that from Facebook to a dedicated forum. And that's actually what I'm working on now.
Brian Casel:A couple weeks ago, I ran a a poll of everybody who's in that group. You know, would you prefer this to be a Facebook group? Or would you prefer a private forum or something else? Vast majority said, yeah, let's go for a private forum. My hesitation with that has been, you know, we have so many conversations and and comments and things in the private Facebook group that if we shift over to a forum, I was afraid that all of that would would get lost.
Brian Casel:And then also the also the user base, like we have like over a 100 people now and they're kind of interacting on a daily basis. And now it's, you know, I'm I'm afraid that we would get the group split up or some people would make the jump over and some would not. And then like the community kinda, you know, fizzles out. But actually I found a way or I I had a developer handle migrating all of the comments and all of the the posts from a Facebook group into the forum software, which I'm using Discourse Forum. And there is actually a a way to migrate over about 90% or or more of all the comments and threads from Facebook into that, which has been pretty cool.
Brian Casel:Still kinda doing the final preparations on that before inviting the whole group to switch over. And and then one way that I'm gonna incentivize people to actually switch over is I'm putting two new pieces of of content in the new forum that only members would would get access to. It's kind of like early access. Yeah. That's smart.
Brian Casel:So There's
Jordan Gal:there's value in making the switch.
Brian Casel:Yeah. So like one thing, I'm I'm gonna actually be posting my a recording of my talk from MicroConf. I did an attendee talk at MicroConf, and this is a recording of a rehearsal where I went through the slides and gave the talk.
Jordan Gal:I was about to say, how'd get a recording? Yeah.
Brian Casel:So so that'll be in there. And then the the other thing is, as I've been talking about, I'm I'm planning a new to to launch a new business, a totally new focus for the foreseeable future. And I now know what that is. And I've started to make plans for that. And I think on our next podcast next week, we'll get into all the details Yeah.
Brian Casel:Can't wait. And the nitty gritty of what that is, but I'm actually gonna be announcing that first to the members in in the new forum and give them a sneak peek at, like, the early the early marketing site for that and and some other details about it. So, yeah, working on that over the next couple days, and hopefully, that'll that'll get done.
Jordan Gal:Nice. Definitely excited for next week to kinda start talking through the new business, the new product. Yeah. Very very cool. So I'm I'm in the same boat catching up after MicroConf.
Jordan Gal:And, of course, of course, the biggest tech disaster since the beginning of Cardhook, when does it happen? It happens on the second morning of MicroConf. Perfect. So I'm like, alright. Wake up in the morning.
Jordan Gal:Let's have let's have a good day. I think it was the same day I was doing the attendee talks. I'm a little nervous to begin with. Check my phone at, like, 6AM. Bunch of emails.
Jordan Gal:Like, of course, it would happen then.
Brian Casel:I remember you were you you came up to me at MicroConf when that was happening. Was It like was kinda
Jordan Gal:that look in Like, my damn it. But it wasn't it wasn't too bad. And, you know, one of the one of the things you know, I've always talked about doing things manually at this early stage. Those those relationships that you form by doing things manually and talking to people on the phone individually and emailing individually and kind of going above and beyond, it's helpful for sales. It's also really helpful for people forgiving you when you screw up.
Jordan Gal:So, you know, some people were upset, but when I responded, you know, in the same way that I respond to other things and the way a relationship has carried on thus far, you know, just that everybody, everybody was was forgiving. So that was that was good. So Vegas has a way of of exhausting you. We didn't even we didn't even party. It was business wall to wall, but it's still it's still exhausting just talking for that long.
Jordan Gal:Did you
Brian Casel:It's keep really exhausting. My my voice was shot after the first night after the reception night. I was afraid that I wouldn't even be able to make it through, like, the the two days. But
Jordan Gal:Did you hear Rob on his podcast? Did you hear what he sounded like? Yeah.
Brian Casel:He's he's sounded pretty wiped out. Voice was
Jordan Gal:just demolished. Yeah. Yep. So that
Brian Casel:That that was my voice on on Monday. Like, I I really couldn't even talk to people. I was just, like, nodding, like, mhmm.
Jordan Gal:Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. No. I I hear you.
Jordan Gal:The I just had no rest whatsoever because Ben, my my cofounder, came back to Portland with me after he was at MicroConf also. So we just, like, went from that to just a hardcore week of nonstop work and, like, talking through everything. So I'm still I'm still tired, but whatever.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Ben Ben is a cool guy. It was it was good to to meet him and and hang out for Ben.
Jordan Gal:That was good. That was like a coming out party. It was it was cool. Alright. So, right, a little update before we jump into MicroConf.
Jordan Gal:Really, I've been doing lately is focusing on the next phase of the business. So so up until now, things are proven. People want this product. They pay for it. They continue to pay for it.
Jordan Gal:They want I mean, it's it's far from done. There's there are so many features and capabilities and all these other things, but the important parts are proven. And so now, you know, I talked a lot about the outbound sales that we did and how that that just got us in touch with so many people. Some good, some bad. And and and we learned from all of it.
Jordan Gal:Who's the right type of prospect? What characteristics do they have? Who do we wanna deal with? Who do we not not wanna deal with? So now we're taking all of that and we're starting to make the turn.
Jordan Gal:Okay. Now let's start marketing. Now let's redo the marketing site using everything we've learned so that we position everything properly to the right people. Let's start creating content for the right type of person now that we know who that person is. So we're just kinda making that turn, and that's what I see as the month of May.
Jordan Gal:Redo the marketing site, start creating the content, start making partnerships, start approaching the right people, and all oriented toward the right segment of the market.
Brian Casel:Yeah. So it's almost like if the first year is about validating and then clawing your way up to the very first, you know, batch of customers and get revenue up a little bit. Now now it's about how do we be really strategic about this and get into positioning, which, you know, there was a lot of talk about that at MicroConf and That's right. And and really get get everything kinda dialed in.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. And and that's it. And we'll talk about that in in a few minutes when we get into Rob's talk at MicroConf about positioning, in general, I found myself getting a lot of value out of what I normally see as fluffy in terms of positioning and target market and copy, all these things that sound more fluffy, but then all of a sudden make a really, really big difference.
Brian Casel:It's an interesting thing. I mean, that's I I I've had the same outlook on that when it comes to, like, content and and even doing things like customer interviews and and research. I think the the more that I that I embedded myself in that whole process, the more, like, solid that I see that as as the strategy. And like, especially today, when you look at things like SEO, which these days SEO is I don't wanna say SEO is dead. I mean, but to do SEO today is really about doing content really, really well.
Brian Casel:Right? And then SEO is kind of like the the the side benefit that comes along with that.
Jordan Gal:Right. That's what happens naturally. It's almost like Google is getting to where they intended to be, where you can kind of ignore optimizing for SEO. You can just do good stuff, and the SEO kinda works out. Like, our whole SEO strategy is like doing guest posts and and podcasting.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Because then people link to you, and it's higher quality links and all that. It's like, okay. Get all the meta tags and the the basics right, but then the actual SEO is just not what it was once thought of as, like, trying to game something. It's like you can pretty much ignore I mean, to the high level SEO people, we sound like idiots right now.
Jordan Gal:But but for our for our level of things, you can really just focus on creating good content, partner with the right people, and getting linked linked to from from the right sites in the right way.
Brian Casel:Yeah. And email list. You know, I I really strongly believe that marketing any business online today, it's more about building the email list, which is really about educating and doing content, you know, that's high value because that's what you own, is the email list and the and the audience. And that's what I've really been that's what that's been my my go to strategies to build restaurant engine and build everything else. And that's what I'm really focused on right now for sure.
Jordan Gal:Right. That's like the tip of the arrow of of permission marketing and and where where things are now. Someone gives you your email address. They've given you permission to enter the most valuable space in their online life, which is the inbox, and that's that's that's the most valuable piece. Not the Yep.
Jordan Gal:Not the retargeted ads, not the paid ads, but but the email inbox. Yep. Yeah. So that's that's where we've been thinking a lot, and and trying to think bigger and be more ambitious in in the goals, and then backing out and saying, is that possible? What do we need to do?
Jordan Gal:You know, this is goes back to the pricing conversation we always have. So we're we're thinking hard about pricing and about that bottom tier, and maybe we don't want it there because you you project outward. You say, you know, $250,000 a month. Right? That's a $3,000,000 business.
Jordan Gal:You're you're a blip. The market doesn't notice. So how how are you gonna get to 250 k a month? Can is that realistic at the pricing levels and how many customers you need and how long it takes to onboard them? And and if it's not, then maybe we should adjust.
Jordan Gal:So so all these different types of things that go into thinking through that. And the other thing I'm doing this week is basically following up with people from MicroConf because that that's where I see most of the value from the conference being. And I think maybe maybe that makes sense as a as a segue to kinda talk about our our big takeaways from from those few days in Vegas.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I mean, speaking of, like, following up with people from MicroConf, I think so one of my high level takeaways this year, just an overall impression, at least for me personally is, you know, last year MicroConf twenty fourteen was my first time going. And so last year for me, it was all about meeting so many new people. And there there were a few friends that I was that I was meeting up with last year, but for the most part, I was most excited about meeting new person after new person after new person. And and then going into that year from 2014 to 2015 with like a whole new set of like microconf people that I met and and kinda keeping tabs on them and keeping touch over the year.
Brian Casel:And so this year, 2015, for me, it was really all about just catching up with with people and and friends. Yeah. I I met a a few really great new people who I you know, it was great to meet for the first time.
Jordan Gal:That was fun.
Brian Casel:For the most part, like all the dinners and and a lot of the conversations that that I was seeking out and and that that, you know, the conversations I got into were with just kinda catching up with with friends. What do you got what are you working on right now? And just even people that I talked to on a regular basis over Skype, it was just good to hang out in person, know. So we you and I organized a dinner on Sunday night, which is really great. And that was a good idea for for us to do.
Brian Casel:We we actually do was like a last minute thing that we we put together on on the day before MicroConf. But I think that's that's a really good thing to do is, like, get get a a planned social like, a a planned dinner for that Sunday going into MicroConf. So at least you have a plan once you land. And and it also helps to, like, kinda put a little group together going into the conference. So we had that dinner the first night, and then some of the same people went out to dinner the second night.
Brian Casel:And then the third night, so Tuesday night, I went out to dinner with a bunch of WordPress bootstrappers, which was which was, you know, good to catch up with all of them as well.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. The the first night was good, and, you know, Brian got to see a little bit of my my my cynical social climbing side. But I I I think it's important at a conference to kind of position yourself as advantageously as possible. And especially at a conference, especially in Las Vegas, that it's actually more centered around the social aspect. So inviting people to a dinner and being able to tell them that somebody else that's cool or that they admire is coming to dinner and that you're extending that invitation to them because you think they're as, like, interesting and and cool as the other people, it's a nice way to flatter people in in a genuine way, but at the same time, you are you are positioning yourself at as kind of like the crossroads of of of the social aspect, social elements of the of the conference.
Jordan Gal:And it's only slightly cynical. You don't really have to be cynical. It's just kinda fun to get people together at dinner. But if you're the one organizing it and you're the one inviting people, it helps.
Brian Casel:Honestly, I think that having this podcast has been really great for us to build a little bit of a community or at least be able to reach out to people in this specific space, you know. So that was really cool to see just a lot of people at the conference who are listening in on this podcast. It was great to meet a lot of listeners who I frankly didn't even really know were out there. So that's that was always fun. But, I mean, I think overall, there's definitely this sense of of of community and it's been there for a few years for sure.
Brian Casel:And and and I attribute a lot of that to to what Rob and Mike have built in everything that they do, but especially with MicroConf. But I think this year, and there's been some talk about how there's just so many returning attendees at MicroConf and that so many people really know each other at this point. It's great to to bring in more new people and and meet new people, but it's just awesome to see what people are working on from year to year and see how those projects are progressing. And that and that's in a big way, like, how I know people. It's like I know people by what they're working on.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. The projects.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Like, you know, I I have a group of people that I know by name, and we talk on a regular basis. But then there's a bunch of people, especially guys that I met last year at MicroConf and then I caught up again this year and it's like, hey. Oh, you're the guy with that
Jordan Gal:with that
Brian Casel:mobile app. Right? Yep. Yep. I know you.
Brian Casel:Yep.
Jordan Gal:Yes. Don't remember
Brian Casel:your name, but I remember your app. You know? And Right. And that's just always fun to kinda catch up.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. And for me, it was my first year. So I I had the same experience that you did, but the previous year. So it was just meeting so many people. It's just kind of exciting, but I could see how next year, seeing the same people again gives it a different feel.
Jordan Gal:You're, like, catching up, and it's a little more fun. It's a little more relaxing. And and you're right that there is there is a magic to what Rob and Mike have done in that in the community because it's it's the most approachable, easygoing conference, and at the same time, super relevant, super high value, and and both of those things at the same time. You know, like, confidence is is, like, situational. If you're in a room with a bunch of billionaires and you're not, you just feel you don't feel as confident.
Jordan Gal:And microconfidence has this weird way of kind of flattening that out where even though people are further ahead or further behind, there's this weird camaraderie of everyone kind of being in the same boat. So that that kind of goes away, and everyone just feels confident in just being themselves and just talking about what they're doing, and you don't have to kinda hide behind, like, oh, my thing isn't as big as this other person's business, and it there's this very, there's the minimal amount of that that it can possibly be.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Totally. And, I mean, for example, like, the dinner that that I went to on Tuesday night with with a bunch of WordPress business owners, you know, there there are guys at that table doing, you know, multi million a year, and there are guys with plug ins doing a a few thousand a month. And guys were just starting things up and were all giving and receiving value at that table. It was just a lot of fun.
Brian Casel:But, you know, you're right. There there is a magic to MicroConf and gatherings like this of of like minded individuals that this camaraderie for me, I mean, I definitely experienced this firsthand this year for sure. I've been talking a lot about how I'm just trying to figure out what my next business is. I'm in this very big transition period right now. Kinda drive myself a little crazy these last few weeks and months.
Brian Casel:And and I'll talk in detail about all this next week, I promise. But the the the magic that happened for me at MicroConf was it clicked. That that thing that I'm that I'm gonna work on, just being around so many other entrepreneurs, hearing conversations, what people are working on, something made gave me that, like, instant clarification of, like, oh, alright. This is the thing that I need to do. And then actually that Wednesday after microconf, I was hanging around all day because my wife was coming in that night.
Brian Casel:And and so I basically spent most of that day in the hotel room typing detailed plans about this new thing that I'm starting, and it just flowed out like like two months worth of of confusion and ideas and and roads and dead ends and and and backtracking all flowed out in a matter of, like, six hours sitting in my hotel room the day after microconf. And it couldn't be clearer. It couldn't be you know, it it was just perfect. So I'm just really excited about it. Now it's just a matter of getting home and and executing on this stuff.
Jordan Gal:Right. And that and that's the environment that does it. It's it's intangible, but it it it motivates and energizes you. It's awesome.
Brian Casel:Totally. So should we get into some specific takeaways from from some of the talks?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. And and it's impossible for us to cover every single talk, or this podcast will be an hour and a half long, and it probably will be anyway. But so anyone that we miss, it's not that we, like, didn't like their course or something. You you can go to microconfrecap.com and read about everyone's, and Kai Davis, a fellow Oregonian here, took great notes, and people sent him slides. So MicroConf Recap, will get you a lot of information on every one of the talks, and we're just gonna talk about the highlights that we kinda remember and wanted to point out specifically for one reason or another.
Brian Casel:Yep.
Jordan Gal:Cool. So let's let's let's start off. Patrick McKenzie I mean, there's a reason he's, like, a legend in microconf circles. The guy is just so likable and so smart and so funny. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:He's he's great. And his his talk was, I thought, unexpected. I didn't think that's what he would talk about. He's kinda known as, like, the AB testing guy and onboarding and kinda engineering business stuff, but he he didn't talk about that. He talked about exit, you know, exiting a business and Yeah.
Jordan Gal:The reasons for doing it and the process and the the nitty gritty behind it and the stuff that's annoying. And, yeah, I thought that was a really interesting talk, especially from someone like that. And you you don't hear it, and I have a suspicion that you're going to be hearing more and more of that happening and and more liquidity in the market in general for, you know, for these these micro self funded businesses, there's gonna be more liquidity in the market. People are gonna be able to sell their businesses for that 100,000 to $750,000 range, and it's a much easier process, but you don't really hear much about it. And it's gonna become additionally, you know, more and more relevant over the next few years.
Brian Casel:Yeah. There was definitely, you know, some chatter running through the conference this this year about exits for sure. And and I was definitely resonating with a lot of what Patrick was was saying in that talk. So a few specific points really popped out to me as he as he was talking. One was, and I'm I'm kinda paraphrasing here.
Brian Casel:I don't know exactly how he put this, but I just jotted a quick note in in Trello as I was sitting there. But, you know, he was talking about transitioning from from one business into the next business. Right? And he said something about the importance of optimizing your next business for learning new things. You know, I think what he was getting at there was his current business, he kinda he kinda learned everything that he was gonna learn from it.
Brian Casel:And the new the next business can't exactly just be like replicate the same thing, but it's gotta it's gotta, you know, help you grow in some way and and learn new things that you could actually use and apply and and add value both as a business, but also as your as your experiences as the founder. So that one kinda popped out to me. And then just the other he he quoted Peltigoulizzoni from Balsamiq, who told Patrick, and and again, I'm I'm probably paraphrasing a paraphrase at this point, but he said, you you have to work on something that you love and use that as your competitive advantage. And I think what he was getting at there was, you know, if you if you go into a market or or some kind of space and you're you're not completely passionate about that particular topic or that audience and that that customer base, you might be able to make it work for a while, but but you're gonna be up against competitors who live and breathe that market, and they love it. And they're always gonna be at an at an advantage.
Brian Casel:So you might as well go after the thing that you're truly passionate about.
Jordan Gal:And where he is now seems to be, like, the culmination. Right?
Brian Casel:So Yep.
Jordan Gal:It it always felt like his talent talents were not fully utilized in the current businesses. And now all of a sudden, you see what he's working on next, and it's it's very technical in nature, but, you know, clever, and it kinda fits right alongside with what he's doing. I mean, Patrick, in general, has a much higher tolerance for pain than most people. So I don't know how he kept the motivation going when he was making literally 10 times the amount of money that his app was making in one week of consulting as compared to a thirty day period of the app, and he just kept at it. And his his Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Explanation for why
Brian Casel:Well, he he kept at it, but he also talked about how he there were weeks and months at a time where he didn't work on it when he should have been working on it. From from a business standpoint, you should be, but that's the that's the most challenging thing about this long, SaaS ramp of death. Right? Is that if you're not completely invested in the topic, in the customer base, in this market, then it's then it's easy to have these periods where, you know, Patrick talked about how he he would go off and and play video games for for weeks at a time, you know, or or, you know, chase shiny objects and other business, you know, opportunities.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. So that that was cool. That was a different perspective from him, and really looking forward to hear more about Starfighter. Right? That's the name?
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yeah. It looks really cool.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. It's like the most clever recruiting tool ever.
Brian Casel:It's Yeah.
Jordan Gal:It's great.
Brian Casel:I don't think I'll have the dev chops to to play whatever Starfighter is as a game, but
Jordan Gal:it's not really like, we're gonna weed we're gonna weed people out. Yeah. But it's it's a very cool concept. Hope it works for them. Up next, we're talking about Joanna Weeb from Copy Hackers.
Jordan Gal:And, I mean, she knows her stuff. But it's it's not that it's not just that she knows her stuff when it comes to copy. It's that she explains it so well. Right? There are a lot of great copywriters out there, but she has such a knack for teaching and explaining things for people who don't live and breathe copy all day that she gives out huge amount of value, and enough of that value comes back to them, or at least I assume so, to make it a great business, and she's just an amazing resource for our community.
Jordan Gal:We need someone. We need a person talking about copy and teaching us how important it is and how to use it. So her talk was awesome. And there's definitely one clear takeaway. You wrote that out here.
Jordan Gal:What was it, Brian?
Brian Casel:Yeah. So the one thing that really popped out to me that she talked about was that every piece of copy has one job. If you're writing an email subject line, the only role the only job that has is to get you to open the email. If you're writing a a button text, the only job is to get them to click that button. You you don't have to sell your whole app or you you don't have to sell the whole contents of the email in the subject line.
Brian Casel:You just have to get them to open the email. And then first first headline of a of a landing page, the only role of that is to get them to keep reading and keep scrolling down. And that was a good little tip. But overall, you know, I I I learned, I think, everything that I really know about copywriting on the web and and marketing copy, especially from Joanna, from her ebooks and from her blog, which I've been reading for years. And what I really liked about her talk was that it was very tactical and very action oriented and showed a lot of examples.
Brian Casel:And I was going into her talk thinking like, you know, I've I've been reading her stuff for a while. It's probably gonna be, you know, a a rehash of things that she's written about before, but it was like all new ideas. And it made me think more about certain things, you know, like how she showed these case studies of, like, even even best practices in copywriting can still can still test and and show the unexpected result is actually successful.
Jordan Gal:Right.
Brian Casel:So
Jordan Gal:yeah. The other takeaway I took from her, I think the better a copywriter, the more humble in that they admit upfront that they don't know. And you don't actually know anything, and everything's a test. And one thing that worked for one business is not gonna, you can't expect it to work the exact same way for another business. And so it's kind of a very humble approach to to marketing and experimentation and being very prepared to be wrong and to be to go back to the original.
Jordan Gal:And so that it was just a great talk in general. But that that takeaway, that each piece of copy has one job, it's blew my mind. Because, you know, we're redoing the marketing site now for Cardhook. It seems so daunting. Like, what are you gonna write?
Jordan Gal:How much to write? How much detail? How much but then when you start when you look at a page and you get yourself into that mindset, it's just it's such a powerful kind of hack. Like, okay. In this section, we're gonna talk about one feature.
Jordan Gal:And so let's just talk about that feature. Let's just what's the goal? What's the job of this section and of this title and of this bullet point? It's just to explain this feature, and that's it. And that's so much more doable than how is this gonna fit into the larger flow and all these other things.
Jordan Gal:So it's really, really helpful.
Brian Casel:Yeah. So Jason Cohen gave a it was a it was a talk slash interview slash kind of open q and a, which I thought was really cool. And and he's the perfect guy to to just get up there on stage, nothing prepared, and just drop some knowledge.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. It's like wisdom. Some experience. Level. Right?
Jordan Gal:Yeah. If look. At every conference, you have, like, people that you look up to and you're, like, nervous about meeting them. For for me, it's Jason Cohen. And I'm, a fanboy.
Jordan Gal:I just think he's just very, very smart and interesting. And and and the way he's gone about his businesses is is very cool. His writing is really good. I kinda bumped into him by accident. When we went out when we went for drinks that first night, we, like, hit each other back to back.
Jordan Gal:And I was like, oh, I feel you know, there's like it was the only the one time I was like, oh, I feel nervous. This is weird. Know who this person is. They don't know who I am. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:It was like was the the only experience of that. But his his talk right. It was kinda free flowing. The thing that affected me most, and I think it was the one moment in the conference that had really deep emotion, and you felt people in the room kinda get emotional listening to it, and it was in response to a question of, look, you've got enough money to never work again. Why do you go to the office every day?
Jordan Gal:What makes you motivated to go to the office? And instead of giving, like, this fluffy answer of, like, I wanna make a difference, or I'd be bored. I don't wanna be on the beach. He he kinda gave a real answer, and and one that could only come from that experience. It really affected me because I I always pretend like everything's about money and all that, but you have a suspicion deep down that, like, okay.
Jordan Gal:Once you achieve financial success, if it's really just about money, you're gonna you're gonna enter this giant dark void, and you're not gonna know what to do with yourself. And then you have the potential to go in different directions and chase the wrong things, and so it really resonated with me. And his response was, give an example of the difference that his company makes in individual people's lives. People who don't have a college degree, maybe don't even have a high school degree, but they give them opportunities that they normally wouldn't, and they transform their lives. And he kinda just showed a glimpse of how much satisfaction and meaning can be derived from that that is so much stronger than what money can do.
Jordan Gal:And it kinda opened up a little hope, at least for me, on the other side to say financial success is one thing, but after achieving it, there's there's this whole universe of meaning beyond that, and that's that's really it's really exciting.
Brian Casel:Yeah. You're actually building something much bigger than than yourself and your current situation and and really impacting other people, whether you're they're your employees. You know, he talked a lot about how, you know, the the people that he works with and and the onboarding of employees in WP Engine and and and kind of, you know, just really got deep into that. It was, you know, yeah, great stuff there. One of the attendee talks that that I enjoyed listening to was Einar Vollsaid.
Brian Casel:He talked about productized services. So obviously, was I was into that one. I I thought he had a lot of really smart ideas to to share there and he's, you know, he's running a successful productized service. He made one good point, and this is kind of a tactical thing as you start to, like, focus in on a on a market. And that is pick a service where leads have a web visible sales signal.
Brian Casel:So I mean, Jordan, I think you do this really well with Cardhook. Obviously, you know, you guys target very specific ecommerce shopping carts. Like, you guys only work with a select number. Obviously, it's a growing number, but you can target customers who use BigCommerce or whatever you guys integrate with. You know, so looking for for indicators like that, I think INR's product has services around maintenance for mobile apps or Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Aftercare. That's right.
Brian Casel:App aftercare where they kind of improve existing mobile apps. So, you know, I mean, it's a matter of like going to the app store and looking for apps and and kind of getting out, you know, connecting with those customers. So, you know, just finding a way to to as you're as you're starting to nail down, like, who is the ideal customer for this? And I'm thinking a lot about this right now as I'm going through this this process again, you know, that going through that strategy of of of the how are you going to reach them and how are you going to target them, and then look for that like web visible signal.
Jordan Gal:Right. And it's it's it's like a a matter of reverse engineering and then and then adjusting your marketing so that it's only targeting the right prospects. And his process is awesome. So he will look at who is climbing in the rankings so you know that they're getting a ton of downloads for their app. And then at the same time, he will look at things like, is this a team that does is this a studio that knows what they're doing?
Jordan Gal:Or is this a smaller company that launched an app and all of a sudden has a hit on their hands? And that's who's gonna need his service. That's who's gonna need help in managing this whole process around the mobile apps. And he kind of reverse engineered that from successful clients, and because the productized service is, a, productized, and b, sufficiently profitable, that you you can you can take that one on one approach and and really pick your leads and go after them. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:His his talk was fascinating, and it's a cool business, and he just has that, like, Scandinavian, like, funny man thing. So Yeah. He he was a very cool guy to meet.
Brian Casel:Yep. Yeah. For sure.
Jordan Gal:Next up, the the most polished of the speakers. Yeah. Jesse Meacham from You Need a Budget.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Jesse Meacham. I I've seen him speak twice now. Once at, you know, last last MicroConf in this year. Awesome speaker.
Brian Casel:Super funny. Really unique sense of humor and just well well delivered and all around. I really liked his concept of he he kinda touched on this a little bit, but it wasn't a big focus, but it really stuck out to me, and and that was, you know, to take a really strong stance on on your topic and then make that, like, the core message behind your entire brand. And I know that sounds a little a little fluffy, but
Jordan Gal:but like sounds fluffy, but he translated into success.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Like he like, one of the headlines on, like, if you go to the homepage of of ynab. Or you need a budget.com, it says, click here to read our mission. Right? And so the whole company is based around this mission.
Brian Casel:And then you get to that mission page and the headline is, it's not just software, it's a mission. Right? And their their mission is this like four rules methodology for making a smart budget. And these like, their their four rules are like, you know, they they kind of believe in a certain method that maybe a lot of other quote unquote gurus might disagree with or or might have a different take on it. They're they're like taking a stand.
Brian Casel:Like, this is what we believe you should be doing, and we've made software to make that possible. And I I just like that whole idea of like finding what that thing is that you're gonna take a a real strong stance on and forming your whole product and your and your whole message behind that. It's not just about kind of, like, optimizing keywords to match with search queries. It's about, like, just taking a stance on something and saying like inserting yourself into a market and saying, hey, all you guys are like, this market is here. You guys are doing things.
Brian Casel:We think you should be doing them a different way, a better way. This this is why, and here's how to do it.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. It's planting a flag. It's taking a stand, and that's that's how you see a business that as is as successful as you need a budget, and it started off with an Excel sheet. They sold, right, a one time purchase of an Excel sheet, and that alone got them far enough along to then create software. And now they have a it's a beautiful business, man.
Jordan Gal:It's awesome. And it's making a huge difference in people's lives. And that's something you can get behind for a long time, and it's all because they went out, especially in the personal finance market. The truth is, in just about any market, people looking for information, they they want something definitive. It it's better to just take a stand and attract the people that agree with you than to be wishy washy and kind of be in the middle and hope that you are attracting everyone with that because we all know that that usually ends up attracting fewer people.
Jordan Gal:I mean, he's just funny, man.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Yep. It's hilarious when the when the camera guy was standing here. He's like, wait. Hold on.
Brian Casel:Picture.
Jordan Gal:Right. In the middle of the speech. Didn't didn't didn't miss a beat. It very well done. Up next is is the man himself.
Jordan Gal:Right? Rob Walling, he gave he gave a really interesting talk, didn't hold anything back, and I think it shows how much appreciation and respect people have for Rob that I would not wanna share. What he stood up and shared with 200 plus people, I'm not gonna share in this podcast. That's like none of their business because I just respect Rob so much just for what he's done and for for sharing at the level of detail that he did.
Brian Casel:Yeah. And and I think he he makes a point of of uncovering really detailed case studies of what he's working on in his microconf talks. And he I really respect him for for not necessarily sharing, you know, daily revenue number or, you know, monthly or weekly revenue numbers throughout the year, but giving giving those details, but also the more meaningful details and and lessons learned in these long form talks to a room full of of micro comp attendees. I think that's really, really solid.
Jordan Gal:And he shares the struggles in between, and then the breakouts, and then the struggle, and the breakout again, and where he talks about stair stepping. You wrote it down here in our our in our notes. The the biggest takeaway I got from the talk was was the one was the part about positioning. You don't think that much about it, but then when he matched up what taking a stand and having a clear position in the market, what that did to the company, what that did to the revenue, what that did to like their mindset in what they're doing and what they're going after. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:It was kind of amazing to see how big of an effect it had, and it sounds a little fluffy positioning, but the truth is they took a stand in the market, and they took the right one according to their customers and their product, and it flowed through everything. It flowed through attracting new people, retaining people, and and revenue going up, and the company kinda gaining this amazing momentum.
Brian Casel:I I really think that that whole concept of positioning just is really important to to fully understand. I think for everyone listening and for everyone who is at MicroConf, Rob what Rob has done with Drip is a is a prime example of of getting positioning right. You know, the way that, you know, Drip is getting into the email marketing space, which is extremely competitive space to get into as an as a newcomer right now. Mean, it's been around email has been around for years. Email marketing has been around for many years.
Brian Casel:And now even even like email marketing automation is is pretty crowded now. But still, like the way that that he's positioned DRIP, it's it's not competing with Mailchimp, it's it's a step up from Mailchimp, and it's not competing with Infusionsoft, it's it's more accessible than than Infusionsoft. So like, they they've been very intentional about positioning themselves and carving out that that little space in between for a certain type of audience. And that's what it's all about. So I think as we're all looking at different businesses to get into or launching a new thing, we're all launching into competition.
Brian Casel:It's important to get into something where there are competitors. Because if there are no competitors, that's a red flag. Right? There's probably a reason for that. But, you know, I I think there's this tendency to say, oh, they're they're these competitors.
Brian Casel:I'm I'm going head to head against against this other guy or these three other guys. You know, you can look at it one way, which is, alright. I know that I'm going head to head against against these guys. I'm just gonna outdo them. I'm gonna outspend them.
Brian Casel:I'm we're gonna out develop them. We're gonna out whatever. But really, the the question is, alright. I know who my competition is now. How am I going to differentiate myself?
Brian Casel:And how am I going to target slightly different target customers than who they're going after? And and and why are those customers what do they specifically need that that these competitors are not delivering for them? So, yeah, a lot of lot of really strong takeaways in in Rob's talk there, I'm sure.
Jordan Gal:It it made me think of back to Jason Cohen, back to my my fanboydom. I wouldn't wanna compete with him in the WordPress managed hosting space. Right? There was another guy at the conference who runs Pagely, another managed hosting, and they are crushing it. And they they have a different position in the market.
Jordan Gal:It's just for slightly different part of the market, and it's a big ass market, and there's there's plenty of customers. And if if they tried to be just like WP Engine, I don't think it would work out nearly as well as them being Pagely and having that their specific position in in the market.
Brian Casel:Yeah. Exactly.
Jordan Gal:Yep. Cool. And it's it's just fun to see Rob doing well because, I don't know, kinda deserves it, man. Work works hard and provides a lot of value.
Brian Casel:Totally.
Jordan Gal:It'll be really interesting to see what happens with drip over the next over the next few years.
Brian Casel:Yep. For sure. So a couple more here.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Only
Brian Casel:Steli Steli Efti. That was a really entertaining entertaining talk.
Jordan Gal:It was entertaining. He might have gone a little over the line on the cursing, but he does use it to to to good effect. Very
Brian Casel:Yeah. Doesn't bother me.
Jordan Gal:Right. Very energetic and captivating.
Brian Casel:I almost wish that he he was one of the earlier speakers, like, on the first day.
Jordan Gal:Just to pump everybody up.
Brian Casel:There was his was like a fire fire up speech. You know? Yep. But he was one of the last speakers. But it kinda, you know, kinda pumped us up for the for the after party, I guess.
Brian Casel:Yeah. And he actually, you you and me, our our attendee talked to her right after him. And Right after.
Brennan Dunn:I was a
Brian Casel:little nervous about following Stelliefti.
Jordan Gal:Right? And at least you weren't talking about sales the same way I was. Like, fine, fine.
Brian Casel:Well, I kinda we we kinda both were, but
Jordan Gal:still, you know. So Stelli talked about sales. Right? He runs customer.io. Woah.
Jordan Gal:Back up. Close. Io. Yeah. So sales software.
Jordan Gal:And the biggest takeaway I mean, I've, you know, heard him speak before and read a lot of stuff from them and from sales on sales in general. The biggest takeaway I took was on the following up. So his thing is do not stop following up until you get an answer. He talked about a story where he followed up with an investor, like, 45 times, and that's just ballsy. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:But what it made me do is it made me think of my own inbox. It made me think of what happens when I get busy, and he's right if if the person on the other end that's following up with me assumes that I, like, don't care or don't like them or am annoyed, or they're they're 95% of the time, they are wrong. It's just that I am busy and have other priorities that I have to take care of first. And then when they follow-up, I'm almost always grateful as long as you do it in a nice way and don't make the person feel guilty. And then I think about, I'm like this busy, a tiny bit busy compared to some other really busy people.
Jordan Gal:And so it's it's even worse for them. And it made me it made me much more willing to just keep following up because why why not? Yeah. Why not?
Brian Casel:Yeah. I mean, if they're really if if it's really a no, they're going to tell you. They're gonna say, no. Not interested or what whatever nice way they wanna do that or not nice way do they wanna do that. Either way, if it's a definite no, they're gonna tell you because they don't want you to to keep clogging up their inbox.
Brian Casel:Right? But if it's if it's not a no, then it you're right. They're they're probably busy and you and you do need to follow-up. And this I've learned this lesson again and again over the years. This goes back to my days of freelancing.
Brian Casel:I can't tell you how many times I was like on the fence of like, should I send one more email or not? And then I did, and then I landed a a $20,000 project. You know, that would not it definitely would not have been there. And then the same thing happens with with Restaurant Engine. We've we've built in a very solid procedure for we always follow-up next day and the next week and then next week, and we set reminders until the person falls off, you know, or they sign up.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. No response does not equal rejection.
Brian Casel:Exactly.
Jordan Gal:Right? A no is only a no when someone writes back and says, I'm not interested. Stop emailing me. Like, that that's actually pretty good because then you don't have to send any more follow-up emails. So that so that was good, and then
Brian Casel:Yeah. Well, one little quote from Steli popped out to me, I jotted this down. I don't even really remember the context of what he was saying, but I as soon as he said it, I I wrote it down because it it made an impact, and that was out teach your competitors. I think that the company or the person who who really not only invests in education, but through the sales process, whether it's over email, over the phone, or in your content marketing, or in the pre sales materials, the the ones who who out teach, teach, like educate about the the concept and topic, but also like teach them how to become a customer, and take them through the process and what that looks like just makes the, you know, makes the whole process more comfortable for everyone, and it's more effective. And so I I think that's what he was getting at when he said out teach your competitors.
Jordan Gal:He was also saying that they don't do paid advertising. They they just teach sales, and it attracts the right people. And he's right. A while back, I signed up for close.io almost entirely because I wanted to be associated with that with that brand and what they were teaching me. And I just I just so I just assumed they're teaching me so much.
Jordan Gal:If I use their software, I will continue to learn, and I'll continue to be more likely to be successful. I mean, the only reason we don't use Close. Io is because it literally just would not work for our particular process. But I I tried to find a way to work with close.io, and it was because they were just doing an amazing job teaching. Yeah.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. It it also helps to focus the mind on content marketing, because that term is so broad, and people think they should just create content, when in reality they should focus on their segment of the market, and what what they need to know, and what they what would help them. And teaching helps focus that. Instead of just creating lists of stuff like the top five things you can do with x, it's like, no. If if you just teach your target market, that's that's the better way to to do content marketing in general.
Brian Casel:Exactly. It's not again, we you know, it keeps coming back to this, and it's really on my mind about it's not about keywords. It's not about word length. It's not about frequency of posts. It's about how well you're teaching your target customers, and that's how you make you you come out with content that resonates and connects with them and makes them more likely to get into your sales funnel.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. We see examples of it all over the place. So the the last one, Heat and Shaw. So he knows the stuff. Everyone knows he knows the stuff with Crazy Egg, with Kissmetrics, with Hello Bar.
Jordan Gal:So his talk, at first, I wanted to dismiss it as not that relevant for for myself or or for other people in in our situation. Alright. So he talked a lot about product market fit and a lot about qualitative research and and how getting the research right and the product market fit piece of it right can help your business move a lot faster and be a lot more successful. So at first, I heard that and was like, that's not really for me. How much research can we really do?
Jordan Gal:It's easy for him. He's got the budget to do research. And then as he kept talking, I kinda realized that actually, a lot of us can apply this to our business. Maybe we don't have the same budget or don't have the same capability to do research on a larger scale, but but to focus on getting the product right for the market at the right time, that is that is something worth pursuing. It would definitely it would make your life a lot easier.
Brian Casel:Yeah. For sure. You know, that that customer research piece, I I know that the survey that he's been talking about, you know, like surveying your customers has been really effective. I I was talking to few guys in my mastermind group who actually ran that survey with their customers this past week after his talk, and going through some of the results, and and they were, like, truly insightful. One guy's actually making changes in his business based on that.
Jordan Gal:And what was it again? What what was that what was the key question?
Brian Casel:What would you do if this product didn't exist? Right?
Jordan Gal:Right.
Brian Casel:Or or what would be the alternative? And then Right.
Pippin Williamson:Or and then,
Brian Casel:like How
Jordan Gal:would you feel if you could no longer use this product?
Brian Casel:Right. Right. Right. And then and make that like an open ended response so that you can see what people are are typing in, which is, you know, just really, really helpful. So I wanna call attention to the Rogue Startups podcast.
Brian Casel:Dave Roden Rodenbog, I hope I'm pronouncing his name right. He's the cohost of of that podcast. He was at MicroConf, and he did a a MicroConf interview at at one of the after parties with Heat and Shaw. Brecht Palumbo was on there. A few other guys were were on this kinda roundtable talk.
Brian Casel:Really great conversation. I wish I was I was around to to hear it. I I guess they they did it late night at one of the one of the after parties. I probably I probably called it quits before before they they hit record on this thing. But it was just a really really good conversation with with Heaton and and Dave and and Brett and a few others.
Brian Casel:You know, highly suggest checking that out. It it kinda gives you a glimpse into what these microconf conversations look like, you know, which is which is really cool.
Jordan Gal:Nice. I'm gonna check that out. I I haven't seen that.
Brian Casel:Yeah. I was listening to that yesterday. Was a good one.
Jordan Gal:Nice. So we are a week away. Right. A week has gone by since the since the conference. And and now the challenge is sustaining the energy and motivation that comes out of it and and having longer term impacts in the business based on things that we learned.
Jordan Gal:I kinda want, a mid year conference.
Brian Casel:Totally. You know, that's actually one more one more takeaway I wanted to mention here. And that's so, you you know, I do the the annual Big Snow Tiny Conf with Brad Tunar. He and I organized the ski trip up in up in Vermont. We've actually been talking with with Dave Rodenbaugh and and a few other guys who are talking about doing one out west in Colorado.
Brian Casel:So there's that and that and and we had a little Twitter conversation going about, like, doing like a hike comp, a a big big hike tiny comp sometime in the fall, you know. So we're you know, these these conversations about these, like, mid year mastermind trips, you know, rent a house, go somewhere cool, and and talk with a few other business owners for a couple days are are popping up. And I really hope a couple more of these actually come together, you know, because it's just an excuse to to get out there, take a trip, and and get in a room with like minded folks. And like I said at at the top of this, you know, there's this magic that happens, this inspiration, this this creative energy that comes out of talking with with people. And, yeah, we have our weekly mastermind groups and we've got our friends and advisers and all that, but it's taking a trip and getting out of the norm for a week and and really like immersing yourself in this kind of culture for a few days that just gets the energy going.
Brian Casel:And it just it's just a reminder for me, how how much I need to do this more often throughout the year. So definitely looking to to get some of these other things together for sure.
Jordan Gal:Yeah. Same here.
Brian Casel:Cool. Well, let's let's wrap it up for today. As always, you can dig into the backlog of episodes by heading over to bootstrappedweb.com. And if you're enjoying the show, please do head over to iTunes, leave us a five star review. And today's episode was sponsored by Less Accounting.
Brian Casel:You can check out their new autopilot service at lessaccounting.com/autopilot and use coupon code bootstrapped web to get a free month of the bookkeeping service or two free months of this of the Less accounting software. So that does it for today.
Jordan Gal:Very cool. Thank you very much. Hey, Brian.
Brian Casel:Great to talk with you. Yep. Talk to you soon.
Jordan Gal:See you. Later.
![[70] The MicroConf 2015 Recap Show](https://img.transistorcdn.com/LDB_Cv9bHAA2vtoSPkZCpkdHPF6fAqfl7PL-PG7_c-M/rs:fill:0:0:1/w:800/h:800/q:60/mb:500000/aHR0cHM6Ly9pbWct/dXBsb2FkLXByb2R1/Y3Rpb24udHJhbnNp/c3Rvci5mbS9jMjkw/MDYxZDQ0MWIxYTUw/NTMzMGI2NTExZWMx/MWQ1Yi5qcGc.webp)