Bootstrapped Web

Jordan Gal: 00:09

This is Bootstrap Web episode number 81. This is the podcast for you, the founder who learns by doing as you bootstrap your business online. Brian, very nice to have you back. Last time I was on my own. So as always, I'm Jordan.

Brian Casel: 00:26

And I'm Brian. I tuned into your episode. Your interview last week was was really good, really insightful talking about email courses. I liked it. Not email courses, just courses in general.

Jordan Gal: 00:37

Yes. Selling courses. Yeah. Keith Keith kinda knows his stuff and I thought it was awesome to kinda have someone like himself on. And his product is interesting that his product hosts your course, but the conversation was like not about the course.

Jordan Gal: 00:51

The conversation was about what happens before the course. How to pick a topic, to generate, how to validate it. So it pretty interesting.

Brian Casel: 00:57

And that's what's so important. That that's, you know, that that makes or breaks a course product.

Jordan Gal: 01:03

Right. And and so today, we're finally we're back together. We got got the old gang back. The episode with Brecht that just went live today, that was that was fun also talking about travel. So now we're kind of overdue for a little bit of an update on what we're working on, where we are, what's next.

Jordan Gal: 01:19

We've got an interesting reader question coming up. So this is just kind of a free flowing fun fun exercise today, but we're gonna start off with Brian.

Brian Casel: 01:28

Yeah. You know, I I feel like the last couple of episodes, like, especially the one with Brecht, we we've done these, like, past updates, like things that we're catching up on from the last couple of And talking about breakfast, talked about a little bit of history and and what I'm planning with my family going forward in the future. But now today, let's get back to the present. What's happening, like, this week in our businesses. Right?

Brian Casel: 01:49

So yeah. I mean, here's my update. Let's see. It's all it's all basically audience ops right now. You know, I'm I'm just and that feels great, first of all, just to be, you know, officially past the sale of Restaurant Engine.

Brian Casel: 02:02

Now, I can finally actually focus my time and my and my mind space entirely on Audience Ops. As much as I've been working on Audience Ops the last few weeks and months, I've been distracted by these other things. So I'm already seeing some progress happen this week that I feel pretty good about. So one thing that that's happening, aside from the the product high service side of it, as I mentioned briefly a couple weeks ago, we're actually developing a WordPress plugin. So this will be kind of like the first small software tool product from AudienceOps.

Brian Casel: 02:40

And it's called Content Upgrades by AudienceOps. There's I I don't have, unfortunately, like a landing page or anything to send you to quite yet. It's still very early on. But I've been, you know, working with a developer to get this thing built for the past month or so. The kind of like the big win for for this week is that I actually installed this plugin and I used it live on my blog this week on castjam.com.

Brian Casel: 03:05

So I I published a new article a couple days ago on my blog that was called how to get more by doing less. You know, just kinda wrote about doing less, staying focused, and all that. But that article, like like many of my articles, comes with a content upgrade, which is basically a call to action on the article itself that offers a bonus PDF download. And that's, you know, an an extra resource that you can actually use. In in this case, it was kind of a worksheet that you can use to to build a a strategy to get more focused in your business.

Brian Casel: 03:42

You know, basically, there's a call to action on the blog post itself. You click the link, it launches a pop up, you fill out your your first name and email address, and then you're immediately sent back an email that says, hey, thanks for opting in for the content upgrade. Here's the link to download the the bonus PDF. So the the the plugin basically immediately sends you that that document, you know, through the WordPress email system. And then at the same time, since you filled out your email address and your first name, that gets passed along to your email marketing provider.

Brian Casel: 04:15

In my case, it's Drip and we've set up the plug in to integrate with Drip. It also integrates with Mailchimp. So I actually used it live for the first time on a live blog post this week, and it worked it worked great. Had quite a few subscribers that day and then and the next day. It's definitely in in good shape, you know.

Brian Casel: 04:37

Like, all the functionality all all the basic functionality that we need is now there. You know, the back end interface is not very pretty yet, you know, I think there are definitely some kinks that we need to iron out, a few other features that I'd like to build into it. But the next step is we're gonna start to install this plugin on our client sites, on Audience Ops, because we we do develop these content upgrades on the post that we do in Audience Ops for our clients. So we're gonna use this plugin to to set that up on all of their sites. That'll happen over the next couple of weeks.

Brian Casel: 05:09

And then a couple weeks after that, I'm gonna actually release this as a standalone product. There'll be, you know, some kind of free version and a pro version of the WordPress plugin. So that's that's definitely coming together. I'm I'm pretty excited about that.

Jordan Gal: 05:24

Yeah. Sounds like a classic case of selling your byproducts. Right? This is what you're doing for clients. You looked around.

Jordan Gal: 05:32

This can be done with a few other types of tools. I use Leadpages for this, but it's it's not that straightforward. And it sounds to me like you guys needed something that was just real straightforward. And if we dig into some of the features that you're talking about, one of the things I don't like about the other solutions is when someone's reading a blog post and they click on it, the pop up comes up. When they subscribe, they get taken to another page instead of being brought right back into the blog post.

Jordan Gal: 06:00

They're in the middle of reading it, especially if you're putting these call to actions in the middle of the blog post. You you can obviously assume they're in the middle of reading it.

Brian Casel: 06:06

Yeah. Exactly. I mean, the way that this one works is after you fill out the form, it it just kinda flashes like a quick thank you and then you're back to reading the, you know, the article. It it you don't actually leave the page.

Jordan Gal: 06:18

And then another a detailed question for you there. Someone gets the email, is that is that a double opt in email? Is that a hey, confirm and then I'll send it to you?

Brian Casel: 06:27

No. So that email that that that the plugin sends you is just kind of like a one off email. It's it's it works almost the same exact way as if you were using something like Gravity Forms or any other forms plugin where you fill out a form and the form sends you like an auto response to the user. That's essentially what this plugin does. Is it it sends you a one time auto response, and for each individual call to action, you can define a different a different email.

Brian Casel: 06:56

I mean, obviously, you'll you'll have multiple content upgrades throughout your site. And that's basically the way it works. And then kind of in the background, it also passes along the subscriber info over to Drip or over to Mailchimp. You could fire like a custom event when you pass it over to Drip so that you can then fire some automation rules and whatnot in Drip. So, yeah, I mean, that's that's basically how it works and and that's coming together.

Jordan Gal: 07:23

Nice. So you've got it on your site, you're gonna add it to client sites and then do you see this as as real revenue potential to sell as a product Or is this lead generation, brand building, a combination of all three?

Brian Casel: 07:35

Probably a combination of all three. I think it has revenue potential. It's it's definitely a tool that can be used by anyone who wants to, you know, really build their list with content marketing. So I would I would see this being used by a lot of people who who are actively doing content marketing, but either they're not interested or or they're not the right fit as clients for Audience Ops. But as I said, the the plugin will be used for our clients as well.

Brian Casel: 08:02

Like, we're we're first and foremost, we're building this because we need it. I mean, up until now on my site, I've been doing content upgrades, but I basically built them custom. Like, I I designed my whole theme is custom, so I designed like a custom pop up, and then I embedded like a drip form and and kind of hooked it up custom. And I've I've looked at using things like like Leadpages and whatnot, but I've just never really been a fan of of Leadpages because it's, you know, it always looks to me maybe this is like the designer in me, but it always looks like it's it's a Leadpage designed pop up or call to action just kinda hodgepodge, like pasted onto some other theme design that has all different branding and and they don't really fit together from a branding experience standpoint. Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 08:48

And they're so they're so widespread now that you become as you become associated with LeadPage. Like, oh, they use LeadPages, which depending on your niche, it might be fine. It might be I think it's less negative really. It's either just neutral or a little positive, but but I hear you. When I use LeadPages, I mold it to look the way I want it to instead of going with the default because I don't want people to be like another Leadpages.

Brian Casel: 09:16

Yeah. And and the way that that we're setting this up is that, you know, it's a simple short code. You just drop the short code in in the middle of any post or any page. And there are some, like, minimal design options, like, you can kinda change colors and and change the border of of the call to action box and whatnot. But, essentially, all of it kind of takes the existing styles from your website.

Brian Casel: 09:39

So the fonts and the and and the font sizes and and things like that are all taken from your theme. So it it it all kind of falls in line. So kinda moving on, the other things happening, I mean, main focus in audience ops if if developing a plugin is is not enough. Mainly, what we're doing is, of course, you know, serving our client base. And early on, we got a lot of clients in the door, I mean, much more than I really expected.

Brian Casel: 10:07

I thought we would get like one or two, we actually got up to like eight clients within the first two months. And what happened was, I have a pretty great team put together, I had some baseline procedures and systems in place, but things are so early on and we're still learning as we go that obviously there are a lot of kinks to iron out, make sure, you know, things are not falling through the cracks, and make sure that we're delivering everything on time. So the last couple of weeks I've been really focused on plugging all the holes in our systems and our processes, and making sure that we can handle this load of clients and have the capacity to deliver all the services that we need to deliver. And really the main thing is to make sure that we can keep quality up to the standard that I think that it should be. So, what happened was I I actually kinda hit pause on all sales and marketing.

Brian Casel: 11:04

But like, I had ideas to do marketing from the beginning, like start our own blog, and start our own email list, and all that stuff. I kind of hit pause on that because we after I announced Audience Ops, we we had a more clients than we could handle, so I kinda stopped taking on clients, and and I had I was speaking to leads who then I said, you know, we have a little bit of a waiting list before we can kind of onboard you. And that's been the story for about the last four weeks or so, where I kind of hit pause on bringing on any new clients, but now we're kind of now moving past that, brought on one or two new people to the team, really ironed out our systems, we changed a few tools and things that we're using internally. So things are starting to really get solidified and things are looking good from a system standpoint. So now I'm basically ready to start pushing again on sales and marketing.

Brian Casel: 11:59

So this week, we actually brought on a new client that makes nine now. So, pretty excited about that. We've got a couple of other leads who, are likely to come through in the in the next couple of weeks. And but still, like, this is still without any real active marketing going on. You know, some of it is through referrals.

Brian Casel: 12:20

A lot of the clients are just kind of people that I that I know personally, you know, through or just kind of people in in my network and they've heard about Audience Ops. Now, my my thinking is how can we start to launch an actual marketing plan for Audience Ops? So it's like, we're finally just beginning or while I'm still in the, you know, idea stages of of of starting our blog for Audience Ops, starting our email list for Audience Ops, starting, you know, some some email courses. I would actually like to start like an audience ops podcast at some point, start to do webinars, like, all these things that I think will be really great and and really educational and whatnot. Just gotta get the get get the wheels turning on on these things.

Brian Casel: 13:09

So

Jordan Gal: 13:09

Yeah. It's it's almost like not only has that stuff not been necessary yet, it would actually be detrimental. I I I also assumed it's the first it's the beginning of the relationship that's the hardest to get right. It's getting up and running with the client. And then once you're off and running and doing weekly updates, then you kind of fall into the groove, but it's the the onboarding the first few weeks.

Jordan Gal: 13:33

So definitely makes sense that you kinda you kinda halted it.

Brian Casel: 13:36

Yeah. And and like a big goal of my since day one has been that I don't wanna be the one doing the service. Like, I'm I'm involved in a lot of the strategy and and some of the creative stuff, but but really a lot of the creative is is happening with my team and and the systems. And I've been working hard to get it to a point very quickly that I know that day to day things are getting done, we're we're meeting all of our deadlines, all the articles that we're writing are are getting processed through our production line, and I'm not really involved in that. Like, nothing is requiring me to get articles out the door.

Brian Casel: 14:10

And think we've we've hit that point now. And and and like I just wanna focus my time on on the marketing stuff and and sales.

Jordan Gal: 14:21

Yeah. That that's that makes sense. That's the ideal. One of the questions that comes to mind is how focused are you on the numbers on profit? Or are you just want to make sure that you're giving a great service first and foremost to these first initial customers, and then kinda see where where the number shake out Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 14:40

Looking backwards.

Brian Casel: 14:41

Yeah. So I am looking at the numbers. In the very early weeks, it was totally about how can we build quality into the service as much as possible. And that and that is still the focus. Whenever I'm working on any any kind of systems, any processes, anything going on with the team, it's all about is this optimal when it comes to, like, audience research and the the articles and whatnot.

Brian Casel: 15:05

But now we are about three months into the business, so that's three months of data that I have to look at. And So, like, I'm I'm basically closely monitoring, you know, how much, what the costs are, what especially the team costs and everything else that goes into it. But things are actually looking pretty good and they're actually a little bit better than I thought, like, you know, profit margin wise. And they're a little bit better than than what I thought, which, you know, it's something else that's kind of on my mind is like how can we have the resources. We we have cash flow revenue coming coming in more more than we really need right now.

Brian Casel: 15:47

So I'm just making sure that we have as many resources, people, and and processes and things in place to get the job done. So like like last week, I actually just brought on a graphic designer, you know, part time graphic designer. His sole role at Audience Ops is to design custom graphics for each article that we that we put out. So it's like a custom title graphic that'll be used in, like, social media. He'll also be involved in, like, creating, like, diagrams and and different graphics to go along with content that we we create.

Brian Casel: 16:19

And so, you know, that's just something that that I think adds quality, it it adds to the experience for the reader. That was actually a hang up that was coming up in our process where the assistant was creating the images in Canva, but I felt that it's better to have a dedicated graphic designer on that piece to kind of make streamline the process, but also add quality at the same time. So

Jordan Gal: 16:44

I like I like that touch. That's one of those things you don't realize or care much about until you start writing blog posts and you realize you look at the people you admire and then you notice they're the design, the images, the title, the these things look and feel polished because someone put time in on it. That's a nice kind of professional touch layer that you guys are putting on.

Brian Casel: 17:07

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, again, it kinda just goes back to the whole goal of like, you're not just hiring a writer, a freelance this is this has to be better than just hiring a freelance writer. You're getting a whole team effort, you know. So what else?

Brian Casel: 17:23

Oh, the the other news, the last bit of news here is that I will be speaking at a couple of conferences coming up. I just found out that I'll be headed to Barcelona, Spain and speaking at MicroConf Europe. So I'm very excited about that one. Never been to Barcelona, so I'm just excited to see the city. My wife and I are actually gonna go there a couple of days early and and check out the city a little bit.

Jordan Gal: 17:46

Nice, man. Yeah. Sounds like fun that the Barcelona, that word keeps coming up these days. I know. In our in in our circles.

Jordan Gal: 17:52

I wanna head over there. That's that's nice,

Brian Casel: 17:54

man. That's true. And then just a couple weeks after that in September, I'll be speaking at Brennan Dunn's double your freelancing comp.

Jordan Gal: 18:02

Right. This is the first one he's doing.

Brian Casel: 18:03

Yeah. Yep.

Jordan Gal: 18:04

Right? So yeah, very, very cool. We want we want reports back. I I wanna report back on the differences between MicroConf Vegas and MicroConf Europe.

Brian Casel: 18:14

Yeah. That's something that I've been interested as as well talking

Pippin Williamson: 18:16

to people.

Nathan Barry: 18:17

Right. Just to see the the the I don't know what

Brian Casel: 18:19

it is,

Jordan Gal: 18:20

lifestyle mindset, just the way they're going about it. I imagine it's shrinking. It's not like you're comparing a typical nine to five business guy in The US versus someone similar in Europe. You're talking about bootstrappers and entrepreneurs. So I assume it's not that big of a gap.

Brian Casel: 18:37

You know, what I what I've heard is that the the the Europe crowd tends to be maybe not quite as far along as the Vegas crowd. That's not the case for all attendees. I'm sure there are some guys who are very far along and and not. But I think there are probably some more freelancers and consultants in the Europe crowd. So, yeah, it'll be interesting.

Brian Casel: 19:00

And Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 19:01

And Brandon's, obviously, we wanna we wanna hear more about.

Brian Casel: 19:04

Yeah. Looking forward to that one. That that one is, you know, specifically for freelancers and consultants. So that'll be that'll be good. I mean, have a lot of freelancers in my audience through CastJam and I like to catch up with those folks as well.

Brian Casel: 19:22

So, if I'm not mistaken, I believe there are still tickets available to the Double Your Freelancing Conference. I I was given a 15% discount on that if you use coupon code my name, Brian Castle, c a s e l, all one word, 15% off. I believe that's at doubleyourfreelancing.com/conf. So you can check that out.

Jordan Gal: 19:44

Cool. And when is that? In the fall?

Brian Casel: 19:46

That's in September.

Jordan Gal: 19:48

Oh, yeah. Soon.

Brian Casel: 19:48

What is it? September 16, I think, through eighteenth, something like that. And that's in Norfolk, Virginia, where I've never been. So it'll be interesting.

Jordan Gal: 19:59

Very cool, man. So that's that's a good update. It's as as you said your update, I I noticed so many similarities in in the things that I'm about to say also.

Brian Casel: 20:10

Yeah, let's get into it.

Jordan Gal: 20:11

It's just that you got there in like three months in your business and it took me like a year. But still different type of situation. But the big thing that I've been thinking about and dealing with the past week is just moving into this next phase of the business. And that's building a team and then separating out the different functions and responsibilities. And then everything that goes with that training documentation.

Jordan Gal: 20:38

So Really what happened was over the past few weeks, I've just been twisting in frustration in how I spend my time. I find myself going eightytwenty in the wrong way. I'm spending 20% of my time on projects that matter and 80% of my time on things, not that they don't matter, it's just that other people can do them. So I shouldn't be doing it. I have other responsibilities.

Jordan Gal: 21:04

I need to fill the top of the funnel. I need to bring in leads through marketing. And I'm only spending 20% of my time. So this kind of went on for a few weeks until I had like a mental breakthrough where I just said, okay, so enough is enough. Things are not going the way.

Jordan Gal: 21:21

They're not going to change if I just keep doing things the same way. It's not going to be a little tweak. Let me wake up earlier. That's actually not going to solve it. So I think you'll very proud, Brian.

Jordan Gal: 21:31

I took the plunge and started documenting and I'm looking at a diagram I made of the whole process from marketing to lead to inbound, to pre sales, onboarding, trials, conversion, support, and then like collection. So all these different pieces. And then I started assigning, okay, who should be responsible for what? I took my outbound salesperson, my man Jonas in The Philippines, who is phenomenal, and turned him entirely inbound. So he no longer does outbound.

Jordan Gal: 22:04

All he does is inbound. The only thing he's responsible for is presales and onboarding.

Brian Casel: 22:09

So what what is that what's what does he do in terms of inbound?

Jordan Gal: 22:13

Okay. So when someone anything presales, anything, hey, does this work with Shopify? Any question before someone creates a free trial.

Brian Casel: 22:22

He's like answering those questions.

Jordan Gal: 22:24

He's answering those questions and you know, there's a lot of me answering them with him watching, but that's how he learns. Yeah. And then once someone creates a trial, they're actually not what we consider a real, I don't know, have the terminology, they're not activated, that's the term. They haven't launched their email campaign. So he's responsible for presales and for onboarding and onboarding means up until the time they launch their email campaign.

Jordan Gal: 22:49

Once they do that, they're officially in the system as like a launched I'm seeing it almost as they're effectively a customer, they just haven't given us their credit card yet. That's the separation between a second person that I'm now hiring and they are responsible for everything after the person launches their email campaign. So we have a lot of automation built in like updates throughout the trial, all these different pieces, these different emails that go out like, Hey, you're ready to launch, congrats on launching all these different things, but there still needs to be someone responsible for it.

Brian Casel: 23:24

Right, like a customer success kind of?

Jordan Gal: 23:27

Exactly right. And right now that sits right on my shoulders. And so whatever I'm doing, I'm always thinking in the back of my head, like to make sure these people are happy during their free trial so when it comes time to conversion, there's just too much responsibility sitting on my plate. Everything that happens after they launch their trial, this other person is handling, I am still responsible for the single most critical part of the entire business, which is converting to paid. And I think that's right.

Jordan Gal: 23:56

I should be responsible for that until I can no longer do it.

Brian Casel: 24:01

What do you do about that? Are you converting them over the phone?

Jordan Gal: 24:08

It ranges from, we have an email that goes out at the end of the free trial saying, this is how you did during the free trial. This is how much it costs, click here to sign up. But the percentage of people that just get that email and sign up is not that high. Because we're relatively high priced SaaS, so you want to sign up for $250 a month. Not only can you not just expect someone to get one email and sign up, you're also stupid if you don't follow-up with them.

Jordan Gal: 24:36

You got to follow-up. It can't be completely automated. It can't be keep sending it the same email or another email that says, hey, you haven't signed up, do it. You should just, you need to just

Brennan Dunn: 24:46

get figured out. It's worth

Brian Casel: 24:48

it. Get the personal touch.

Jordan Gal: 24:50

Right. Follow-up with them, get them on the phone. What questions do you have? So that part of the process is obviously the single most critical part of the entire business. That's when people actually become paying customers.

Jordan Gal: 25:03

So that for the time being, I'm keeping track of because I don't know, that seems right to me. Like, if that's the single most critical part of the entire business, who should be responsible for it? For now, it's me. I can see in the in the near future, once that kind of gets worked out, that that can be handed off to someone, especially as they get better at the customer success part. Yeah.

Brian Casel: 25:24

Yeah. Mean, it sounds it sounds like a repetitive process that could eventually get delegated. But as you say, I mean, that is a pretty critical conversion point, you know, when they become a paying customer. And I'm sure there's still I mean, a little bit farther along though. It's not like you're a brand new company anymore, but there are a lot there's just a lot of feedback and data that can that can be gathered at that point.

Brian Casel: 25:49

Like, what are the key objections? Right?

Jordan Gal: 25:51

Right. Like why don't you think it's worth $250 a month or you have more than one site but you don't wanna pay $250 for two sites, you want a deal, like let's talk. So there's a lot going on there. What we can't, what we we've already done some of this stuff. Whenever somebody recovers $500 their trial, I get emailed.

Jordan Gal: 26:12

So I say, okay, these guys are making money. Let me prioritize them. Let me make sure I keep track and extra track on them because they are very likely to turn into a pain customer. Yeah. So I could see That's awesome.

Jordan Gal: 26:23

When that, right that like that, that made sense to us. So I could see where at the end of the trial, when we know how much we're offering as the tier, the $99 tier can go to one person and if it's $2.50 and 500, it can go to me. So we can start, you can see in the future, you could kind of work this stuff out. Yeah, totally. So that's been like a revelation in the business.

Jordan Gal: 26:46

Like, okay, pre sales onboarding, that's one person. Then during the trial and after they're a customer ranging from support emails after someone's a customer to your credit card got declined, we need a new credit card for you. Everything after the trial begins is another person.

Brian Casel: 27:08

The What are you doing? What are you doing about the dunning stuff?

Jordan Gal: 27:12

Right now, we are are just doing it manually. Okay. So you're I we might outsource it, but we don't we don't need to yet.

Brian Casel: 27:21

But you have some system some your Stripe Billing will will at least tell you that a that a card has failed. Right?

Jordan Gal: 27:28

Right. So it's connected into intercom and Slack and when there's a failed charge, we get notification. Hey, this charge failed.

Brian Casel: 27:36

Okay.

Jordan Gal: 27:36

Cool. And so right now, it's me. Right now, I'm saying, okay, it failed. Let me grab this email template that says, hey, your email got mean, your credit card got declined. Click here to update your your credit card.

Jordan Gal: 27:49

We just a few months ago, that that didn't work. That was like, need to call you on the phone to get a new one. Now we have the link and it's it's much easier.

Brian Casel: 27:56

Yeah. So, I mean, I I would definitely suggest just going with a one one of the dunning services. The one that I've used have have used for years is stunning. I mean, that's just a a tool that you can just sign up for right away, plug it right in, and, you know, this is this is like kind of a plug for them, but but they've been awesome. I've been using them for years on Restaurant Engine, now I'm using them again for Audience Ops.

Jordan Gal: 28:19

So I have I have a question on it though. Is it just technical? Is there no human? Because Yeah.

Brian Casel: 28:25

No. I mean, you can I mean, it's it's all emails? It you know, but you can totally customize the email templates that go out.

Jordan Gal: 28:34

Right. See, the I'm leaning toward Churnbuster, which is which is an alternative and it's run by Andrew Culver, I think, who's who's a buddy. And the reason I wanna go toward them is because they've they've they allow you to basically outsource the responsibility, not just a tool that emails, but they will also call them on the phone and say, Hey, it's Linda from Cardhook and we just need a new credit card on file. We've sent you a few emails, but I can take it over the phone. So they go the next step and for our customers, someone that pays 250 or $500 a month, it just does not make sense to me to let them drop off because we're only sent, you know, so

Brian Casel: 29:14

No. I mean, I I think That's the situation. Yeah. I I think that both like Churnbuster and Stunning essentially do a lot of the same things. I don't believe Stunning does the the done for you calls, which is a really nice feature.

Brian Casel: 29:24

But in my experience in Restaurant Engine, we we had it set up so that Stunning handles the the three failed attempts. And if the customer doesn't fix it on their own by then, which a lot of them do, but if they don't, then we get pinged in Slack, and and then we had systems in place for for our customer service person to call up the customer. And what I found was it doesn't take just one call. It it usually if they're really ignoring those emails and then ignoring the calls, it's Uh-huh. You get excuses.

Brian Casel: 29:55

You get

Jordan Gal: 29:55

takes months. Yeah. Mean, two months.

Brian Casel: 29:57

Oh, yeah. I ordered a new card. It's not gonna come for two more weeks. And, you know, oh, like the yeah. Just moved locations and blah blah blah.

Brian Casel: 30:04

It's like, you know, you gotta deal with all that crap. And Right. You know, that you know, who knows? But

Jordan Gal: 30:11

Yes. So so what what all this has done, like, the things we're talking about right now, they take energy to think about and worry about. So the biggest thing that's happened look, it's not done. We have a lot of documentation, a lot of training, but what it's done is it has opened up my mind to say, I'm just not going to have to spend that much energy and time thinking and worrying about this part of the business. Obviously, support issues will still rise up to me for the time being until people get fully trained up and all these other things.

Jordan Gal: 30:44

But the important part is that I've wrapped my mind around using systems and people and documentation in place to start to achieve what businesses should achieve that the owner shouldn't necessarily be the operator at every level. This is the transition that we're in the process of. Now we right, I have a co founder, we have one person or we have another person bringing on, we have some money in the bank. It's like you need to progress, you need to get better and evolve.

Brian Casel: 31:17

Yeah. I mean, I'm curious, what aside from the day to day, like, you know, converting trials into customers, what are you working on? Like, what's the big initiative that that you're that like, what's the next phase of of Cart Hook?

Jordan Gal: 31:30

Yeah. The it's it's marketing at scale. It is attracting a lot more people and all the things that we're talking about right now is really preparation to be able to handle more people. Right now, we have this bad unhealthy cycle of I go out and I create a partnership. We just integrated with a company called Cratejoy.

Jordan Gal: 31:52

It's a subscription e commerce platform. We did integration with them. We got dozens of free trials. It's just awesome successful partnership. But now because I don't have the systems in place, I get mired in dealing and working with those new free trials.

Jordan Gal: 32:07

And so I haven't done new marketing and new partnerships. And what we're getting, what we need to get into that next phase is that I just keep moving forward and expanding the marketing and putting more and more and more trials into the top of the funnel. And then if there are capacity issues behind me, then we'll address those behind me, but we don't allow me to slow down. We don't allow marketing to slow down to be able to handle capacity that could happen, but that's very far.

Brian Casel: 32:33

That's exactly where I'm at with audience ops is like, I've been in pause on all marketing because we've got the systems are not dialed in yet.

Jordan Gal: 32:43

Yeah. It makes you uneasy.

Brian Casel: 32:45

It does.

Jordan Gal: 32:45

This is

Brian Casel: 32:46

stupid. Yeah. But

Jordan Gal: 32:48

yeah. So the effect that all this has had is I'm more energetic. I'm more optimistic. It feels like the momentum is building because things are more possible, things are more within reach. Alongside that, I'm starting to look up and further head into the long term more strategic thinking.

Jordan Gal: 33:09

What's the competitive landscape like? We talked about this a few episodes ago. Your competitor raises $11,000,000 another competitor just raised $15,000,000 So now it's like, okay, these guys are up here and they have to deal with high end. Where should I go? I'm actually thinking, like actually using your brain to think about what's going to happen a year from now, two years from now, where should we position ourselves?

Jordan Gal: 33:32

What are we good at? And what is the cynical approach to position ourselves for an acquisition? All these things that you can't think about if you're just kind of stuck in the mud all the time.

Brian Casel: 33:44

Yeah, you you gotta have that space to think too. Mean, so right now I'm reading a book called Essentialism, which is so so good. Who's the author of this?

Jordan Gal: 33:55

I feel like I've heard about this. Is this like a mindfulness thing?

Brian Casel: 33:59

It's basically about the ideas like, know, Essentialism, the disciplined pursuit of less. And it really promotes this idea of less but better, you know, where you're just saying yes to so many fewer things than you were before. Not taking on it's it's it's not only about, like, taking on too many projects at the same time, but even within that, like, even within one project, just focus on the most essential things and leave everything else out. And the concept is that when you free up, whether it's free leisure time or just getting more sleep, more play, the times that you're working are so much more effective. And and I'm I'm reading this and it's just like really hitting home for me.

Brian Casel: 34:51

And I'm I am starting to notice it now that I'm truly only focused on on audience at at one time. It's like, you know, it opens up space to think about those high level strategic questions, you know, whereas before, know, I mean, I've constantly been, you know, just bogged down in day to day, know, what's due today? What are these emails coming in? What's what's happening? And you got to be able to kind of focus.

Jordan Gal: 35:20

Yeah, the magic, these little moments of breakthroughs, they happen because you're marinating in the same topic, the same idea, same thoughts, it's bouncing around your head and the longer they sit with you, come up with these things that you normally wouldn't if you were trying to think about two different businesses at the same time, too many different tasks at the same time. Yeah, so that's it. Along with that, we're launching our biggest update to the product. We have a new email template builder. Up until now, the emails have been super simple, very limited in customizability.

Jordan Gal: 36:00

Now we're launching a template builder that you can really make the emails look the way you want, a bunch of new features, AB testing, and next week Shopify app comes out, which obviously with their momentum has big potential. Oh,

Brian Casel: 36:16

That'll be a big integration.

Jordan Gal: 36:18

Right. So, working hard and Shopify is an interesting integration because there are a lot of cheap Shopify card abandonment apps. So it's forced us to think where are we going to add so much more value that it's worth to pay us $500 as opposed to $10 a month for something that does it in a much much simpler way. Yeah. Yep.

Jordan Gal: 36:40

So that's Cool. Yeah. Going on, lot to do, but heading in the right direction.

Brian Casel: 36:46

Yeah. Absolutely. So so, you know, a couple weeks back we we received an email from a listener asking a question. We we don't exactly have it in front of us, but but the question that I believe he was asking was he was asking about content marketing, and, you know, everybody kinda knows, alright, blog posts, emails, social media, but how does it actually work? Like, how do you act how does it actually convert a visitor to your website into a paying customer?

Brian Casel: 37:14

Like, how do you connect those those dots? That's, I think, what every business owner really wants to know. Right? And I I was actually having a conversation with a customer today about this, you know. Like, how do you kinda warm up a list or or, you know, take a take a list or take your traffic and actually convert it into paying customers.

Brian Casel: 37:32

Right? Specifically around content marketing. So, you know, we we thought we'd kinda, you know, kick around some ideas. I know you Jordan, you you sent your one of your classic long, like, eight paragraph email responses to our one listener. I thought maybe the maybe the rest of our listeners could benefit from this.

Jordan Gal: 37:49

I sometimes I can't I can't help but Ben, someone sends a question and I I'm in the middle of a day and I have a lot of responsibilities to finish up before the end of the day, all these other things. And then I just I try to write a one sentence response and it turns into like three paragraphs and

Brennan Dunn: 38:03

And then and then I usually chime

Brian Casel: 38:05

in like, yeah, what Jordan said.

Jordan Gal: 38:06

Yes. Yes. But it's a you know, how to how to approach this question in the right way. Right? It's pointless to try to get fancy and talk about things that are not essential to the actual question and the problem.

Jordan Gal: 38:27

Right? What is the point of content marketing? Like, you're you're writing this stuff cool. How does it actually help your business? How does it bring you customers?

Jordan Gal: 38:37

Yes, so it's very closely related with email, right? That's the thing. It's married to email. So I think what my response to him was the point of content marketing is to bring people to your site and then once they're there, prove to them that you are worth giving more time to, like you're earning the right to actually market to them. And so that content marketing, the expertise on what you're writing about or making a video or whatever it is that you are providing value on, that gives you, it builds trust.

Jordan Gal: 39:16

You were once a stranger to them and now you're no longer a stranger and they believe you, they have trust in you, they've gotten some type of value from you. And the best way that people have figured out how to translate that into an opportunity is to ask for an email address. So if you provide content that builds trust and authority, if you can parlay that into their email, that gives you the right to provide them additional value and build even more authority. Then once you have that position, you are in a much better place to make an offer for actual money. So so that's how we can go from here's a blog post on how to optimize your shopping cart page to, oh, these guys know what they're talking about.

Jordan Gal: 40:04

Let me opt into this content upgrade that gives me a checklist of the five most important things to get right on your shopping cart page. And then that can lead into a few emails that eventually leads into, okay, now that your shopping cart is super optimized, make sure that you are capturing your abandoned carts. And for that there's Cart Hook, which we run. And if you wanna start a thirty day free trial, you can do so here. Right.

Jordan Gal: 40:30

Yeah. And so asking for that thirty day free trial at that point in time is better and more likely to convert than the first time they come to your site, you ask them for that that initial offer.

Brian Casel: 40:41

Yeah. I I think you I think you hit the main point right on the head and and that's it's about email. You hear the word content marketing, and immediately what what comes to mind with most people is blog posts, it's infographics, maybe it's videos. But really, it's about email. It's the the articles and the videos and everything that you're doing is really about getting people onto the email list so that you can then follow-up with them and keep in touch with them and send them more content.

Brian Casel: 41:16

The the blog posts and the videos are are just the it that's that's the value, that's the the content. Right? That's that's the thing that will actually that people wanna consume and and want to use. But if they're not subscribed to your email list, they're not gonna benefit from it. They're not gonna receive it in the first place.

Brian Casel: 41:38

And that may sound over overly obvious, but I think what happens is, you know, companies and people think about content marketing like, okay, it's all about blog posts, so we have to we have to optimize for Twitter shares and Facebook shares and and SEO and and getting all this organic traffic to to the blog, and then eventually they'll just magically make that leap from from Google search to blog post to customer. And and it just does not work that way. Obviously, more you you publish content, the SEO benefits will will come eventually. Social media, I I see more as just a way of, like, directing some people's attention toward your your content. But if the focus is getting new visitors to opt into your email list, then you have that ability to follow-up with them.

Brian Casel: 42:31

And then the next issue that I see I mean, these days, just about every company has some sort of email list in place. But the big mistake that I see happen is they just don't send emails to them. They they're even they are blogging. They're coming out with a lot of great content, and they have an email list sign up, but then they don't send newsletters. They don't send an email course or any kind of auto auto responders or anything.

Brian Casel: 42:55

And that's another mistake, is like under sending to your email list. You're what happens is you go a month, two, three months with subscribers not hearing from you, and then all of a sudden you send them an email, who who are you again? You know? Guilty. Yeah.

Brian Casel: 43:14

But, like, that's, you know, that's how you kinda stay in touch on on a regular basis, because at the end of the day, they did opt in to receive stuff from you. And the reason that they opted in is because you have something valuable in their eyes. So you have to give that to them.

Jordan Gal: 43:32

So this right. We're now we're touching on on theory, and we have someone who runs you do this for a living now. So so let's let's look at it practically. I'm a software company. Right?

Jordan Gal: 43:47

I'm coming to you, and I'm saying, I'm a software company for ecommerce stores, and we have an abandoned cart piece of software. Why should I do content marketing and how, you know, like how do I do it? How would you do it for me? Like run through the process of someone who's currently not doing it right now to finally doing it as a first step, not like your buffer and you have half a million people visit your blog, but like, okay, how do I actually what's the what are the steps to actually get started?

Brian Casel: 44:17

I think the I think this this is another piece that is so underutilized, and that is the whole audience research and and or customer research before you you begin blogging or before you start revamping your content marketing plan. Just it's it's very similar. It's just like when you're developing your MVP for your product from from day one, you're doing that customer development. You're doing those interviews with customers, surveys to customers, getting that like an early access list and just actually reaching out to them and figuring out what their primary pain points are. We wanna do kind of the same exercise for the content marketing plan.

Brian Casel: 44:58

And a lot of this exercise can be reused for both purposes, both your product and for your content. And so that's what we we try to focus on mostly in the in the first month with new clients and audience ops is that audience research phase where we're interviewing the founder and their teams to kinda extract as much information as we can that they've learned over the years, but then we'll actually get on the phone with some of their customers, record those calls, and kinda analyze them for what are first of all, like, what's the reason why an ideal customer, a target customer would be interested in your product in the first place? You know, like, what makes them an ideal customer? What what are they working on? What type of business are they in?

Brian Casel: 45:42

What size is is their company? What is their what what is the decision maker's role at the company? Who are they, basically? But then we're trying to figure out, alright, well, what are you working on right now? What what are the things that are, like, on your desk that you're that you're working through, you you have some challenges that you need to overcome, you need to hit certain goals later this year, what's standing between you hitting those goals and what you're working on right now?

Brian Casel: 46:11

And that that may not be exactly tied to your product. Like, you're you're selling, you know, cart abandonment software with CartHook. So you're selling to ecommerce store owners. And specifically, what your software does is it optimizes abandoned shopping carts in in the checkout process. But ecommerce store owners are concerned with things like how do we get more traffic to my site?

Brian Casel: 46:35

How do I get the right cost for for inventory? I can imagine, you know, like

Jordan Gal: 46:42

Yeah. It's it's a small percentage of people who are thinking about card abandonment.

Brian Casel: 46:45

Right. Like, that's just one They're

Pippin Williamson: 46:46

thinking about their business.

Brian Casel: 46:47

They're thinking about their their business as as a whole. Like, how can we Advertising.

Jordan Gal: 46:50

What to do next?

Brian Casel: 46:51

Yeah. All all this stuff. So these are all topics that are interesting, and resonate, and actually add a lot of value to the day to day work of your customers. So, if Cardhook is coming out with articles about, you know, how to optimize your homepage, how to optimize your category pages, your product pages, how to use email marketing for e commerce stores, how to connect with parents who if you find that like, have a lot of ecommerce stores who are serving, like, the parent parenting market, you know, you can find these little niche segments in your customer base or in your market and develop content that if if they see that content come across their feed, their inbox, somebody recommends it to them, that's gonna be like, oh, yeah. I wanna read that.

Brian Casel: 47:45

I wanna check that out. I mean, that's number one, just to get their attention, just to get them to open that email, just to get them to click on that that link on Twitter or or Google and get them onto your site. And then, of course, step two is getting them onto your email list if they're not on it already. Mainly, we we do an email lead magnet, like an email course, which is typically about five lessons followed by a sixth and a seventh lesson. So, like, the sixth is kind of like an offer where we where we make that transition from, alright, we've taught you, you know, the five best things for optimizing your checkout flow on your ecommerce site.

Brian Casel: 48:25

Now that we've taught you all all this all these best practices, here's how you can put it into action today. You can do it the hard way and build all this custom software yourself, or you can use our tool, CartHook. Here are the main benefits, and here are a couple of testimonials, and here's a here's an offer. So that email, that sixth email is pretty purely an an offer email that comes after you've given a lot of value both in free content on your blog, free content, educational content in the email course, then an offer, and then we we usually do a follow-up email after that, like questions and answers about Cardhook. So, you know, you you can kinda come up with, like, the five most commonly asked questions or really these are like objections, and you can give short answers to those objections in this last email.

Brian Casel: 49:15

And so a certain percentage of of new subscribers will opt in or become, you know, trial users at that point because they've they've read your stuff, they've gone through this email crash course, they got the offer, they're and and what's also important here is that this is all happening within the first two or three weeks of the the person's interaction. And that's a that's a pretty critical phase because they are they they got to your site somehow, whether it's searching for for an answer or they're referred to it somewhere. They're in this mode of searching for solutions, somewhat related to what Cardhook provides. Otherwise, they wouldn't have landed there. And so, we know that, you know, most customers are not gonna just immediately buy, especially a $250 a month SaaS product, they're not gonna buy that on the very day that they discover it.

Brian Casel: 50:08

But if they opt in for email and they get more information, they start to get warmed up, they they learn more about the product, the specific benefits, the company, who's behind this company, in in this first two to three week window, that's when you want them to actually make a a decision. And, you know, maybe that decision is, alright, well, it's not right for us right now. I'm I'm kinda just investigating. I'm still a few months away from launching my store, but it's it's cool to know that that cart hook is here. Cool.

Brian Casel: 50:34

So now they're on your email list. So after that six or seven email course, you're following up with them next week, the week after, week after that with regular articles. Just educational stuff about e commerce. Hey, you know, it's it's me from Cardhook again, just giving you another thing that you could actually put to use today in your e commerce business.

Jordan Gal: 50:58

Right. And then the occasional offer.

Brian Casel: 51:01

Yeah. Occasional offer. They that can come through, you know, like PS statements or, you know, by month two you can invite them to a webinar. Again, in between, they're still receiving new content from you until they get to a point when, okay, we're ready to to get our cart abandonment software in place. Our our ecommerce store is in that place that we need one.

Brian Casel: 51:25

What's the first one that comes to mind? Well, obviously, the company that's been sending me emails every week, you know.

Jordan Gal: 51:30

Yep. Right. That's that's the that's the permission based marketing that that that's the goal. So is that is that is that the ideal framework? Traffic to opt in to a defined strategic autoresponder to an offer.

Jordan Gal: 51:48

And then if they take the offer, that's great. If they don't take the offer, get dropped into the regular email list.

Brian Casel: 51:54

Yeah.

Jordan Gal: 51:54

To be kind of worked on and developed and and additional value brought in over time.

Brian Casel: 51:59

Yeah. Exactly. And I I like to have one primary email course, lead magnet, and that is designed, as I just described, to take new subscribers, educate them with a with a five to six email course, and then make an offer, and that and so that thing is designed to convert new email subscribers into customers. And all new subscribers are pointed to that. So on your website, you've got calls to action across the top, on the sidebar, at the bottom.

Brian Casel: 52:31

That stuff is all pointing to your primary email course. You go on podcast, you're a guest on podcast. Hey hey, Jordan. Where can we connect with you? Well, you can connect with me here, but you you might also wanna check out this free email course that we have over on the Cardhook block.

Brian Casel: 52:46

Like, that's that's the thing that you're promoting everywhere.

Jordan Gal: 52:50

And and then you use these different content upgrades. Even if it's a different blog post, you're still leading people into that email course.

Brian Casel: 52:57

Yes. So the way that

Jordan Gal: 52:58

I Absolutely.

Brian Casel: 52:59

The way that I this is how I currently do it on on CastJam and this is how, you know, we set it up for clients is, content upgrades are specific to each individual blog post. It's like a bonus thing about that topic. So if someone opts in for a content upgrade, they immediately get the upgrade, and then we put automation in place to say if a couple of days later, send this one off email that says, you know, hey. It looks like you haven't checked out our free email course on card abandonment yet. If you're interested, here's what you're gonna learn in it.

Brian Casel: 53:34

It's a it's totally free five five day email course. Just click here to get started. And they're already in your system, so you can you can set it up so that they click a link that automatically triggers the email course. And now you've just funneled a content upgrade subscriber over to,

Jordan Gal: 53:53

you know And do you into the course that

Brian Casel: 53:55

you want to course. And, you know, you can do like the same thing with with webinar subscribers or if you have like just a generic email newsletter sign up somewhere, you know, you can set up automation so that they're funneled over to that course.

Jordan Gal: 54:08

And so you don't automatically transition into the course kind of no matter what they do. You do ask permission. You say, do you wanna check this out? You could do a transition. You could do thanks for downloading this content upgrade over the next week.

Jordan Gal: 54:23

I'll be sending you a course on this. I guess that's that's less ideal.

Brian Casel: 54:27

Yeah. I you you could. I there's there's not too much wrong with doing that, but I prefer to have them receive that email and intentionally click the link to get this course. It if in the first place they didn't they didn't even hear about the course, they don't know what it is, they've never heard anything about it, they're they're originally just opting in for that content upgrade because they were interested in that article that they were reading. This this new email, this one off email that you sent to them, it's like, hey, we also have this course up and it's about card abandonment.

Brian Casel: 55:01

You know, because then once they click that link, then they will anticipate those those emails coming over the next week. Right. It's more proactive and therefore more valuable, and you kinda have

Jordan Gal: 55:12

them more focused on it Yeah. Looking forward to it.

Brian Casel: 55:14

And and look, even they don't opt in for that, maybe if they don't open that email or they don't click that link, a week or two later, they're still gonna get your newsletter.

Jordan Gal: 55:24

Right. And then you could put a conditional PS in some of the newsletters and say, because they haven't subscribed to the course, you can have a PS statement say, hey, have you checked out this course?

Brian Casel: 55:34

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Jordan Gal: 55:35

Promote it you can promote it over time to people specifically who have not opted into Yeah.

Brian Casel: 55:40

Or or maybe people are just not into email courses in general, and that's fine. They're they're still gonna get your newsletter, but maybe they are into webinars. So the next time you do a webinar, oh, yeah. I I could

Jordan Gal: 55:51

Right.

Brian Casel: 55:51

I don't wanna do a week long email course, but, yeah, I could do an hour on a webinar. Sure. You know, like and and look, there are still gonna be people who who who just have the need immediately and they need they need to buy Carhook now. I mean, that's what your homepage is for. You know, like, you could still get to your sign up page.

Brian Casel: 56:11

It's not like we're

Jordan Gal: 56:12

keeping them preventing you there.

Brian Casel: 56:14

Right. Right.

Jordan Gal: 56:15

And in that situation, if somebody does sign up, do you do you you halt? Right. Let's say someone's in the middle of a five part course and after reading part three, they sign up for a free trial. Do you halt the course from completing or do you can you just halt like the last email that's an offer to sign up for a free trial?

Brian Casel: 56:38

Yeah. You can do things like that. Like what I do is any kind of offers or sometimes, like, in a PS, I'll I'll make an offer to to get to get the product. You can wrap those in conditionals. So, any anyone who is a customer, they're gonna get tagged customer.

Brian Casel: 56:57

So so those offers are, you know, if you're a customer, don't show this. Or in some cases, like, even send this email if you're a customer.

Jordan Gal: 57:07

Right. If if the person's tagged trialing or customer, then don't send this email that's an offer and an FAQ and and whatever else.

Nathan Barry: 57:16

Right. Right.

Jordan Gal: 57:17

I'm just so glad we're recording this.

Brennan Dunn: 57:19

I like you're giving

Jordan Gal: 57:20

away like a thousand dollar consultation here.

Brian Casel: 57:23

No. Yeah. I I love talking about this stuff. And this is this is actually like the kind of stuff that that I wanna start putting into the audience ops blog and and educational kind of materials. So Yeah.

Brian Casel: 57:35

A lot of kinda Yep. A lot of this kind of stuff.

Jordan Gal: 57:38

It's helpful. I've done this stuff, but it's still it's still hard to wrap your mind around how this all this the whole strategy works together and how each blog post filters into that and how it's cleaner and similar to have one go to course that you can promote everywhere you go. Yeah. And how that will lead up and it it just makes it, I don't know, more digestible.

Brian Casel: 58:01

Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? I I think it's ideal to have one main lead magnet, especially if your if your product is is very very focused on solving one specific problem because then you can optimize that lead magnet to be all about that that problem. That's not to say it should be all about your product, it should be about the underlying business problem and the best practice to to to, like, be successful with that.

Brian Casel: 58:27

And then it's like, well, how do you be successful with that? You use this product, You know? So that

Jordan Gal: 58:34

I I that because that that frees you up to write blog posts that aren't focused on your product, but know that when people opt in and they are gonna get this email course, then that will be like your best stuff. That will give you the best possible chance at converting because the email course isn't so far removed from what the product actually does. Like your content is that. Your content has a gap Exactly. Between what your product does and the value and the problems that your audience has.

Brian Casel: 59:03

Exactly. Like what we do is for the blog when when when we create the editorial calendar, we're coming up with, usually, at least five or six to start, like, five or six general themes that we're gonna then build out ten, twenty, thirty blog article topics around. But, like, these are like five or six themes that could be just pretty I don't wanna say pretty far removed, but not directly related to the product itself. You know, if you're if you're selling like accounting software, you know, some of these themes can be like working with clients, project management, raising your rates, you know, maybe even like selling a business, or, you know, anything that a business owner, a small business owner who does accounting and eventually needs accounting software, things that they happen to be, you know, interested in, and they're actually relevant to a business owner and work. So that's like the blog editorial calendar, but then once you get into that email course, again, as you said, it that that's the piece that gets a little bit more focused.

Brian Casel: 01:00:16

Right.

Jordan Gal: 01:00:16

You have your shot at them. If they take it, great. If not, you have you have plenty of other opportunities over over the time span of the relationship.

Brian Casel: 01:00:26

Yeah. Like that one gets a little bit it's still educational, still value, but it's it gets a little bit the goal through the course of the of the email course is to make your product like the logical next step, you know.

Jordan Gal: 01:00:39

Cool, man. Very very good. I think we did a good job of answering that question. Yeah.

Pippin Williamson: 01:00:43

I think so.

Jordan Gal: 01:00:44

There's a a million other details, but I think that that was the bridge between a blog post and turning someone into a customer. All right, cool. Well, thanks everyone. I know after a few episodes ago when we talked about kind of our big news, a lot of people kind of tweeted and said congrats. So thank you very much for that from both of us.

Jordan Gal: 01:01:04

That's it. That wraps it up for us. If you want to hear more episodes, head on over to bootstrapweb.com. Sign up for the email list so you'll get notified when new episodes come out. And if you're enjoying the show, you're getting value out of it, head on over to iTunes, hook us up with a five star review, and we'll read it next time we record.

Jordan Gal: 01:01:22

Thanks, everybody.